LA Noire working practices questioned

By Robert Purchese Published 21 June, 2011

Gruelling hours affected dev "sanity".

Accusations have been levelled against L.A. Noire developer Rockstar and Team Bondi for leaving 130 developers out of the game's credits and for enforcing unfair work practices. These include making staff work 12 hour days as well as weekends.

The Sydney Morning Herald heard evidence from the co-creators of L.A. Noire Credits, a website set up to properly credit all the people who crafted the acclaimed detective game.

L.A. Noire Credits wrote to Eurogamer at the beginning of June.

The Sydney Herald heard from a developer who was pressed by his wife to leave Team Bondi after being forced to work up to 12 hour days as well as weekends. He worked at Team Bondi for three years. He left before L.A. Noire was completed and was struck from the credits. "I felt as though my sanity depended on it," he told the Sydney Herald, explaining his reason for going.

"... Most of the people that worked on it will never have proof of having worked there."

Former Team Bondi employee

He described Team Bondi as a "virtually praise-free" and "inflexible" environment.

"There has been a lot of press saying how incredible this is for the Australian gaming industry, since it is the biggest (and most successful) game made in Australia to date," he added.

"But that has come at the price that most of the people that worked on it will never have proof of having worked there (unless they want to pull out a paycheck)."

The upshot is that those 130 staff - more than the entire Eldre Scrolls V: Skyrim team - allegedly left off the credits will have difficulty proving, to the small video games industry in Sydney, their role on one of Australia's top games.

This isn't the first time a Rockstar studio has been linked with shady working practices. Rockstar San Diego, the developer of Red Dead Redemption, was accused by an insider of "deception", "manipulation" and "abuse". That same studio was lambasted openly by the wives of Rockstar San Diego employees about torrid working conditions that included 12-hour days, Saturdays and no holiday or overtime pay.

Rockstar was accused of leaving staff off of credits back in 2006 during development of controversial stealth action game Manhunt 2. There were 55 uncredited staff then, according to a missing credits site.

Eurogamer's L.A. Noire review awarded 8/10.

The first 15 minutes of L.A. Noire.

Picture of Robert.

About Robert Purchese

Bertie is Eurogamer's Senior Staff Writer. When he's not hunting down news stories he's often found playing with his kids or gabbling about fantasy games and strange online worlds. @Clert on Twitter.

Read more articles from Robert by visiting the Robert Purchese archive page.

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Comments (59) Latest comment 11 months ago

Comments for this article are now closed, but please feel free to continue chatting on the forum!

  • Scopeh #1 11 months ago

    Deja Vu!

    http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2011-0...

  • metalangel #2 11 months ago

    Strewth! That's really reprehensible. Just because you're not there at the end doesn't mean you didn't make an invaluable contribution... that's like denying a footballer praise because after scoring three goals he had to go off with an injury, or a soldier a medal because they died fighting the war and didn't survive to see victory.

  • andywilkie35 #3 11 months ago

    Stop moaning and start making LA Noire 2

  • silversun #4 11 months ago

    I think the people at Rockstar and Team Bondi might be harderst working people in the industry , Its a good thing to have passion about the thing you work on but over do it and lots of things will suffer from it.
    Im just putting this out there to people in charge , for example la noire great game but maybe could have been better and not because people are working 24/7 without a break.

  • BadBoyBonner #5 11 months ago

    Sounds a bit unfathomable. Why would they be left out of the credits? Can’t take much time to type a name in. Seems very petty and small minded.

  • fobsta #6 11 months ago

    Game Development. LOL

  • repeater #7 11 months ago

    Shameful.

  • HyperTails #8 11 months ago

    These guys deserved to have their names on the credits. Leaving because of crap working conditions doesn't mean they have the right to simply pretend they never worked their.

  • edhe #9 11 months ago

    Company makes dick move shocker.

  • Bertie Verified Senior Staff Writer, Eurogamer.net #10 11 months ago

    Deja Vu!

    I'm adjusting the story slightly to reflect what we heard back then.

  • BuddyChrist #11 11 months ago

    Credits

    Everything:
    Rockstar

    Special thanks to:
    Rockstar

    Thanks for playing

  • whoyouknow #12 11 months ago

    I wouldn't worry about it, I don't think many players will see the credits anyway. Seriously, I was so amped for this game, I got it, and it sucked.

    (Go on you cunts, neg me to hell)

  • Trigalis #13 11 months ago

    Forced overtime and no overtime pay, isn't there some sort of games industry union to make sure this doesn't happen? If not, why?

  • telboy007 #14 11 months ago

    Like to know what Bob Crowe would say about this kind of thing.
    Edited by telboy007 at 21/06/11 @ 15:25

  • Moribundman #15 11 months ago

    Isn't it deja vu to the story about R* cracking the whip over Red Dead that snuck out before that was published?

  • chrisjm #16 11 months ago

    recycling, slow news day?

  • Batfink #17 11 months ago

    The attitude to workers in the gaming industry stinks badly. These people need to unionise and fight hard for humane working conditions.

  • Pulsar_t #18 11 months ago

    Rockstar are c*nts.

  • Widge #19 11 months ago

    It's already been stated that it's not about players seeing the name on the credits...

  • optimusprym8 #20 11 months ago

    Unfortunately it's pretty common as credits are always a last minute thought. Typically the current staff list from HR will be used so if you aren't there at the end, it's more of an admin error than deliberate. However a good producer should be keeping track of people working on the game throughout the development process so they can all be included, in an ideal world at least.

    Sometimes it goes the other way, I've seen credits done at companies I've worked for that include every single member of staff whether they had anything to do with it or not, down to the office manager who was replaced and the sandwich boy.

    Credits are much more than something for players to skip, sites like MobyGames use them to (sometimes inaccurately) compile credits for games / developers which is very handy backup for CVs etc

  • topscore1632 #21 11 months ago

    I remember frequent arguments as to who should go first in any particular section. I think IGDA's framework is very helpful in defining who should get credit and who shouldn't, and I also prefer Valve's approach which is to just list the names of everyone who worked on the game. No Lead this, Senior that.

  • Dubya #22 11 months ago

    This is not the first time Rockstar work ethics have been questioned. With Red Dead I kind of promised myself to stop supporting Rockstar by not buying their games. I failed.
    I won't fail again. No more Rockstar!

  • SEVQA #23 11 months ago

    A crunch in development is a failure in development; I hope the ones responsible (Producers, Project Managers and Release Managers) are the ones in the board room getting the third degree.

    Though I'm guessing they probably all got bonuses!
    Edited by SEVQA at 21/06/11 @ 12:01

  • Jonny5Alive7 #24 11 months ago

    I think this is common in game developers tbh. When a game is due out they simply have to get it completed, I've heard similar stories about other devs.

  • Sir_TimAlot #25 11 months ago

    Maybe this is why the game started so strongly and ended so poorly

  • mooseti #26 11 months ago

    Surely isn't this a CASE of CIRCUMSTANTIAL evidence?

    ...sorry...

  • the_fold #27 11 months ago

    Eldre Scrolls?

  • woodyrulesok #28 11 months ago

    Pretty much sounds like the post production industry.
    I recently did 12 hour days, 6 days a week with no overtime. And I have only been credited on about 1/5 of the projects I have worked on. VFX always gets stuck at the end of the credits too. Right after the guy that drove the hair dresser of someone in catering.

  • Ranger101 #29 11 months ago

    @SEVQA - couldn't put it better myself. Hopefully not too many talented people burned out during the development.

  • Shadders #30 11 months ago

    I understand that it's not nice to be left out of the credits, but surely that's not how you would go about demonstrating your previous employment to a potential new employer? You'd have a reference or something, surely?

  • IronCladChicken #31 11 months ago

    Sadly none of this sounds too unusual for software projects - game dev or not.

  • sega #32 11 months ago

    I find another big problem with the games industry is they like to pay you with "experience" - this isn't just for people starting out, either. They always claim it will be invaluable to your cv to work long hours for peanuts. If you don't accept that, then they'll just find someone else to do it who will be willing to work for that rate.

    Employees are under appreciated in this industry because it's seen as a "privilidge" to work in. It's supposed to be like a dream job but that's not the reality. Of course there are good games companies too, but some have to learn you can't live on a "privilidged experience" - pay them, give them credit and fair hours just like you'd expect in any job.

  • anthonypappa #33 11 months ago

    how did they find this out?

    did they complete the game all excited to see their name scroll past, only to be disappointed?

    surely they will still put it on their CV... where it's useful.

  • Stevo060377 #34 11 months ago

    I fully sympathise as for the last 3 years I've been working for 10% less pay and no pension. It's not just the games industry that is affected. 12 hour plus days, no public holidays, worked weekends and reluctance to allow time off for family holidays is par for the course in architecture too but no-one is fighting my corner and no-one is writing to industry publications about me. As my company directors advised....if you don't like it, quit. We'll find someone else to do your job for less. It happens all the time. I'm not credited for ANY of my work..........I'm just initials on a drawing.........

  • Snake_2011 #35 11 months ago

    this is not a Rockstar studio.

  • AgentWhite #36 11 months ago

    Software development all around seems harsh towards people with families in my experience. The guy that alwaysw works 8 hours and then goes home isn't seen as a team player. It is a sad state of affairs where when you are young you need to work your ass of so you won't have development but managerial duties with less hours when you are a family man.

    That said, long working hours are not really uncommon in other parts of the software industry but getting credits are really uncommon. No application I have been apart of writing has ever had a credit page. Tons of people seem to be able to prove their work and change employment even if they are part of the hidden and very large sector that makes software that is not off the shelf. In a small community like the on in Australia it shouldn't be hard to prove you worked on L.A Noire. Explaining why you got fired will be another question... "Because I don't like long hours" is the number one thing I wouldn't mention in a job interview writing software :(
    Edited by AgentWhite at 21/06/11 @ 13:12

  • lordofthedunce #37 11 months ago

    Stone the crows, this is a bloody disgrace, mate.

  • stegabba #38 11 months ago

    i honestly could not care if they got treated unfairly by getting paid well, i got my game and i dont care abot the conditions they supposedly had to work in :L thanks for the game

  • bumyoghurt #39 11 months ago

    If they had real jobs, this wouldn't be an issue. Oooh I want to make computer games, love me!

    Seriously though, I liked LA Noire so they should start making another one now.

  • Stratix #40 11 months ago

    Sounds like a terrible place to work. Are those practices not illegal?

    I would prefer that they had had 7.5 hour days, didn't work weekends unless they wanted to, and for proper pay (they can afford that, right?), and brought the game out half a year later.

    It's like choosing between wearing shoes that were made in a sweatshop and those that wern't, it just doesn't feel right.

  • RumpyStumpy #41 11 months ago

    The problem is that they have to answer to share holders.

    They don't think twice about anything other than their market value and are just trying to appease their shareholders who want to see continued growth year on year.

    However it's these shareholders who front up the money so Rockstar can take chances on companies like Team Bondi and they tech they develop.

    The problem for Take 2 and Rockstar is long term as they are damaging their image and the products eventually suffer because they can no longer attract the best talent and projects are rushed to market.

    Take 2 are the new EA in terms of damaging their business for the sake of short term gain.

    It will tale a few years but they will most certainly lose a lot of Market share because of their current working practices and of that I am sure.

  • bumyoghurt #42 11 months ago

    We choose to live in the decadent West, around 90% of our stuff is made by or as the result of killing, blood money, dirty dealing, slavery and pain.

    Why are we crying about a load of rich Australians?

  • brseg #43 11 months ago

    Unfortunately, in many programming jobs days of 9-12 hours are not uncommon. Sometimes projects are already a year behind 'schedule' before you arrive. Then, heaps of managers on bonuses related to delivering the overdue project out the door. Its not a good industry to be in for long, thats why you hear of so many devs burning out and moving on, esp as they get older.

    I find it a little odd that we single out this one company, its widespread practice. "virtually praise-free" and "inflexible" - yup, that too.

  • ajaxpliskin #44 11 months ago

    Er... when you have a job interview in the games industry, they don't play through the game and check the credits. They contact the company via the references you give them. Pretty straight forward really. You also should have working proof of your contribution to show.

  • LOLLERS #45 11 months ago

    pretty standard games industry practice, you could write an article like this about almost every game.

    Edit: The AAA ones anyway. And most of the AA and A ones. That's partly why all the developers with any sense are 'Going Indie', so they can make games on their terms.
    Edited by LOLLERS at 21/06/11 @ 14:20

  • Rorsch #46 11 months ago

    And that's why I love playing games, and not making them.

  • menage #47 11 months ago

    Fuck demanding company's and corporate strawmen. I quit my last job because of this kind of mentality. Only reason they can get away with it is that everybody puts up with it.

  • soviet_ #48 11 months ago

    12 hour days and weekends and it still takes 5 years

  • igol #49 11 months ago

    "virtually praise-free" and "inflexible" environment. Sounds like every job I have ever had (except I would say entirely praise free).

    Sounds like every job everyone I know has had.

    Does anyone work for a flexible employer who praises them? If so, I’d like to know more...

  • shadowdogg #50 11 months ago

    @andywilkie35

    How fucking dare you

  • KimboDice #51 11 months ago

    Thats why games like God of war and uncharted are so amazing! When Devs like Naughty and Santa Monica who actually work as team members and who are passionate about what they are doing is what game development is all about. I think Team Bondi need to take a leaf from Devs like them because it shows in the final product. L.a noire is a good game its just not epic.

  • leaveitout #52 11 months ago

    The funny things about game credits is that you get the thousands of names of all the marketing people that maybe only booked an ad for the game, while people like the devs in this case are left out.

  • NewbieZilla #53 11 months ago

    During the time it was in Sony's hands the game was missing deadlines and over budget, so Sony wanted to lose the project. Rockstar wanted it, and have given an exclusive of The Agent to the PS3. This is years old information that has been out there for a long, long time. Especially the staff turnover because of poor conditions.

  • Spong #54 11 months ago

    The game is far from great, being left off the credits is a blessing if you ask me. As for twelve hour days, welcome to my world. I do twelve and a half hour shifts and I'm on my feet the whole time, not sat in a comfy chair staring at a computer screen.

  • cyber_nicco #55 11 months ago

    I tested Battlefield 1942 at EA in Redwood shores for about two or three weeks well before the end of production, and I still got in the Credits.

  • tursachan #56 11 months ago

    I wouldn't hold up Naughty Dog as a good example. This article even seems to take pride in the long hours worked:

    http://www.latimes.com/entertainment/new...

  • Notorious_LRO #57 11 months ago

    Join unions people. Works wonders. Don´t get $crewed.

  • Downside #58 11 months ago

    Ha, join unions :)
    Sw doesn't work like that. They'll just find a sweat shop dev team in Poland, csz, India, china, etc to replace you.

    Good money? Better money being a plumber, easier life too, tax fiddles much easier :)

  • Murton #59 11 months ago

    A lot of outrage over some missing credits, it's a dick move definitely but you'd be hard pressed to find any games company that will credit someone who leaves prior to completion, largely because the credits list is one of the things to be done at the end of development in most cases. This might not be a case of them being deliberately left out, simply their no longer being at the company at the time the credits were produced, likely automatically from staff lists at the time of production. If this was a case of 130 people being laid off and then not credited it would be different. I think a fair way of doing this would be anyone who works on a game for 90 days or more, goes in the credits regardless of circumstance.


    Also "more than the entire Skyrim Team" is a little harsh. The Skyrim team could probably be a lot smaller than it is now considering that the game is based on a ten year old engine and relying a lot on procedural content, unlike LA Noire which is entirely scripted and was built using an engine that wasn't intended to produce a game of that type requiring a hell of a lot of modification along the way.