Xbox chap defends Lumines

By Tom Bramwell Published 24 October, 2006

"This is about choice" - Canessa.

Xbox Live Arcade group manager Greg Canessa has defended Q Entertainment's decision to include just a handful of levels for three of Lumines Live's main game modes and then sell more later, arguing, "if you criticise Lumines for this, you gotta criticise a whole bunch of other games".

Speaking to 1UP, Canessa said that Q's approach was "about choice". "Now, in the case of Mission mode and Puzzle mode, for example, there are a certain number of levels and at a certain point there are no more levels. Now, if you want to consume more levels, because it's more of a level-based play mode, if you want to consume more levels, if you want more puzzles, you've gotta get some downloadable content for that. That's fine."

"It was a complete game in every way," he argued. "We were not a fan of, 'Hey, we'll put these two modes in the basic game and we'll sell these two other modes in downloadable content.' We would not allow that. We wanted the basic game and all of the play modes to be available in the basic game. And that is what we pulled off."

Canessa's protest appears to be that Lumines Live offers plenty of gameplay in the Mission, Puzzle and Vs. CPU modes by default. At one point, he claims that you can play the Vs. CPU mode "as much as you want" and that additional levels are "not going to change the gameplay in any significant way". But Vs. CPU mode offers just one level, after which you're told to buy a premium downloadable "Vs. CPU Pack" for additional content. Playing that one level repeatedly is tedious, to say the least, with the variety brought about by additional skins sorely lacking. Based on that, and similar measures in Mission and Puzzle modes, a lot of gamers have argued that Q is doing precisely what Canessa claims they're not doing - putting a few modes in the basic game and selling the vast majority of the other modes' content after the fact.

That's been compounded by two things: firstly, Lumines Live's price, joint highest on Live Arcade, of 1200 Microsoft points (GBP 10.20 / EUR 13.96), and second, the knowledge, in many cases, that the original Lumines PSP game offers much more content out of the box, and Lumines II, due out on PSP next month, also includes extensive runs of Mission, Puzzle and Vs. CPU levels, as well as other new features not found in Lumines Live.

Nevertheless, Canessa says that Microsoft and Q Entertainment are "going to listen to customer feedback overall and we're going to look at the sales of the title" - the implication being that the companies may consider adapting their plans to fit the models with which consumers are happiest.

Picture of Tom.

About Tom Bramwell

Tom is Operations director of Eurogamer Network and Editor-at-Large of Eurogamer.net. He joined the company in February 2000.

Read more articles from Tom by visiting the Tom Bramwell archive page.

You may also like...

Comments (40) Latest comment 5 years ago

Comments threads automatically close after 30 days, but please feel free to continue chatting on the forum!

  • Zomoniac #1 5 years ago

    It's not about choice because the packs aren't even there!

  • Mugwum Verified Operations Director, Eurogamer Network #2 5 years ago

    It's about choosing whether you want to choose later!

  • groovychainsaw #3 5 years ago

    What content does the full game have over the demo, having played the demo it seems to stop at nearly the same point. Really they should release the limited content as the demo, THEN offer the choice of what you would like to expand on. That would be a much better model.

  • gizmo #4 5 years ago

    One word.

    Greedy.

  • limepickle #5 5 years ago

    I tried the trial version and have to say it didn't really do it for me on a big screen.

    Its one of the best portable games around but simply not exciting on the 360.

  • bauhaus #6 5 years ago

    how come consumer "choice" allways seems like you get less and pay more??

    some feckin choice

  • t8yman #7 5 years ago

    I just think its a complete ripoff, I will gladly buy dlc, but to sell the initial game as "buy full game" and then find you dont have the full game is just plain wrong. trading standards should look into this. I cant report them because I didnt buy it, but anyone who did and feels conned should take action, this sort of practice sets precedents in law.

  • Beano #8 5 years ago

    "It's about choice..."

    No, it's about ripping people off!

    Yes, it's up to the customer to decide if they want to buy or not.. but MS knows that some people will buy it no matter what when it's easily available and tempting.
    Same thing as the Madden stadums, Tiger Woods unlock-codes, etc. ... greedy!

  • alimokrane #9 5 years ago

    It's about choice heh ? it's about Bloody making money you monkeys! I, for one, didnt buy the game and never will ....

  • t8yman #10 5 years ago

    @wonga

    I see your point, but its basically a "platinum" title now surely?
    hardly worth a premium when you dont actually physically own it either, there is no resale value, because it cant be sold. and you dont even get a nice box or shiny disc for the price. I know we all have favourite games, but I found Zuma far more entertaining and addictive than this tosh, and for nowhere near the same cost.

    I'm sure this arguement has been done to death elsewhere anyway.

  • UGhost #11 5 years ago

    I wouldn't surprised if Q Ent decided to reduce the amount of content in the XBLA version to a good relation with Sony for the release of Lumines II on PSP.

  • skillian #12 5 years ago

    "if you criticise Lumines for this, you gotta criticise a whole bunch of other games".

    There's not many other games that offer such a small amount as a base pack is there? Or maybe he's giving us a glimpse of the future.

  • Rambaldi #13 5 years ago

    Is it worth it? Is it not? Semantics

    The simple fact is the people were told that for 1200 points they could "Unlock The Full Game", when clearly that was untrue.

    Trading Standards.

  • Xerx3s #14 5 years ago

    you know what? fu ms & Q.

    I'm happy to hand over my money, but at least gimme something in return. And demo's don't count. Bunch of thick-headed, whale humping tossers.

  • krudster #15 5 years ago

    Put it this way, I wouldn't buy it.

  • firm3d #16 5 years ago

    Wonga - Gamestracker lists Lumines as being available for £13.98; a fair bit less than £30.

  • crazyhorse174 #17 5 years ago

    "I still think it's strange that people are happy to pay £30 for it on the PSP, And yet they think the whole package should be £10 on the 360. .. The truth is that people are probably not even paying for it on the PSP."

    You can get it now for 15 quid for the PSP.

    I think if people had been asked to buy the title for £30 in a box off of the shelf, a lot of people probably would have. The difference being here, that it seems that your paying a price for the game, then being asked to fork out more money just to get that bit further in it. It just seems a bit underhanded and devious.

    If it had been released as a full price game, then no-one would have complained because at least in that case, had you bought it, you would expect to get the whole package for one price. And you could also trade it in if you got fed up with it. Anyone who forks out £XX's for a downloadable game cant do that.

    And as someone else mentioned above, it is bad advertising, as it clearly states that you are unlocking the full game, when in fact your not. I think that really grates with a lot of people as well.

    All in all, I think that Live may have been the wrong way to distribute this game. At the end of the day, they'll probably make they're money coz it seems like a load of people have already spent cash on this game already, and with Lives policy of not issuing refunds, those people aint getting that cash back!

  • Penguinzoot #18 5 years ago

    It's not about choice. Its about being wilfully deceived. Pay 1200 points for the full game. Then you find out its not the full game, just an extended demo.

    If the dev had been completely open and honest about the entire price up-front, I'm sure this whole controversy would not have happened.

    I love Lumines on the PSP, and I have bought loads of DLC and XBLA titles. But I ain't being suckered into this. On principle.

    Edited by 1 at 24/10/06 @ 10:48

  • crazyhorse174 #19 5 years ago

    "Put it this way, I wouldn't buy it."

    Hear hear!

    The voice of authority has spoken! :)

  • Kiigan #20 5 years ago

    Personally, I agree with the MS guy. It IS about choice.

    I like the idea of being able to choose what play modes I buy. And price-wise, Lumines is a premium XBLA product, and still priced competitively when you compare to the PSP version. You really can't compare it with the rest of the XBLA tat up there at the moment.

    You can buy the Lumines Live "base pack" for about a tenner and get a LOT of value from it, a lot of longevity, a lot of play. It's not a bad deal, by any stretch of the imagination. If you really want the extra play modes, sure you can buy those add-ons when the time comes if you want. You have that choice. Also remember, with XBLA the decisions on pricing, DLC etc... it all comes from the developer, not Microsoft. This is the way Q Entertainment want to try and sell their work on XBLA - seems worth a try, in my opinion.

    If someone fucked up anywhere, it was simply that it wasn't properly communicated to XBLA customers exactly what they were getting for their 1200 MP, and what they weren't getting. I suspect that is a mistake they won't repeat.
    Edited by 1 at 24/10/06 @ 10:47

  • Penguinzoot #21 5 years ago

    Kiigan -

    I agree with your point about choice, I really do. But as a consumer you can only make an informed choice when you are possession of all the facts.

    In this case, many XBLA customers believe they were deceived, so yes it is more about communication that anything else.

    Like I said before, if XBLA customers had been aware before they bought the "unlocked" version that it was still a stunted version, and chosen to buy it anyway, then that is their choice. Thats great.

    This is not like the horse armour debate. This is about deceiving customers that they getting the full version of the game when they weren't.

    I'm sure these customers were not intentionally deceived, but thats just the way it worked out. For me, it just leaves a bad taste in the mouth, and I hope its NOT a sign of things to come either on XBLA or Sony Online.

    As in all these things, the power rests with the consumer. If you don't like it, don't buy it. I won't.
    Edited by 2 at 24/10/06 @ 13:10

  • bauhaus #22 5 years ago

    "I suspect that is a mistake they won't repeat."

    I doubt is was a mistake, and if it pays off then they will indeed do it over and over again

    before long, we'll be paying for each level in a game, how feckin great will that be?!?


  • angerisagift #23 5 years ago

    It's about choosing whether you wanna get screwed in the ass or not.

    Don't buy it. Choose life.
    Edited by 1 at 24/10/06 @ 11:29

  • Stoatboy #24 5 years ago


    I like the idea of choice - I'm absolutely delighted that I can have Lumines without Madonna in it, and without paying for it too. I'd have paid extra for a patch to remove her if they'd included it as standard, tbh.

    However, if this whole thing was about choice then I'd have been able to get hold of a cheaper copy without Multiplayer in, because I really don't want it, and yet have to pay for it regardless. But it seems they've chosen not to let me choose in this case.

  • bauhaus #25 5 years ago

    Its like buying a TV series on DVD, allways annoys me when a 12 episode series is put onto 3 seperate DVD packages (for example Dr. Who) rather than one bundle (for example Battlestar Galactica*)

    Bet thats great when Granny buys you 1/3rd of the series you want for xmas

    And I allways get the impression that they do this not to help you out, or give you more choice, but to make more bloody money



    *Programs selected are examples only, the author does not condone the purchase of the above sc-fi programs.

  • crazyhorse174 #26 5 years ago

    "Or are they all using hacked PSP's with ancient firmware I wonder."

    Have to be honest mate, I resent that comment. I've spend a fortune on my PSP for games for it and have no pirated software at all.

    I think its wrong to assume that just because a lot of people *can* run pirated software that we all *do*.

  • Steroyd #27 5 years ago

    Pfft GTHD offers better choice than this.

    From day one I know that i'd be buying 30 cars and 2 tracks and playing online is on a buying per car basis and i'll also know it's a demo like GT4
    Prologue.

    With this basic information I know what I'm getting into If I buy the demo.

    All it takes is subtle information like that for Lumines Live to eventually be accepted, there will be initial revolt it'll calm down after the idea settles in the mind, but it's better knowing before the purchase.

  • Penguinzoot #28 5 years ago

    Steroyd -

    Thats the difference - we been told well in advance what you will and won't be getting with GTHD.

  • BettySwallocks #29 5 years ago

    'Q's approach was "about choice".'
    I'll choose the mobile version then and it's only £4

  • TripleSeven #30 5 years ago

    lol, everything that doesn't work seems to be about choice nowadays ;)

    Choose L. and an external HDD now!

  • Roamer #31 5 years ago

    Articles like this one and pure wit is what makes Eurogamer one of the best gaming sites. It's so rare that you anyone in the gaming-press actually dispute some of the stupid claims PR people throw about.

  • t8yman #32 5 years ago

    or there are those of us that neither own a psp, intend to buy lumines 2, nor will be ripped off in this way, and we can still smell shit on this one.

    its not even that good a game fer christs sake

  • peterfll #33 5 years ago

    I happily paid the 1200 points for it because:

    A) I have no interest in the 'locked' modes;
    B) I like the game enough to play it on my PSP and 360.

    However, should Canessa et al really be interested in the feedback from consumers about this type of release model they should note that:

    A) Clearly a lot of peple thought the 'locked' modes should have formed part of the basic download and as a result believe it's too expensive;
    B) It should have been more clear on Xbox Live what (and more importantly was not) included in the download

  • Xerx3s #34 5 years ago

    Its like buying a TV series on DVD, allways annoys me when a 12 episode series is put onto 3 seperate DVD packages (for example Dr. Who) rather than one bundle (for example Battlestar Galactica*)

    Bet thats great when Granny buys you 1/3rd of the series you want for xmas

    And I allways get the impression that they do this not to help you out, or give you more choice, but to make more bloody money

    hear, hear! One of the reasons that I stopped buying series years ago. Effin ripoff!

    I think that the biggest problem isn't even that you pay 15-20 €, I think that the problem is that ppl have the feeling that they are being ripped off for every penny that they are worth by releasing everything separate and forcing you to buy it (or else you won't be able to finish stage x)

  • Steroyd #35 5 years ago

    If you don't like the game that's entirely different.. If only they priced games relative to how much we like them. Still you should say equally that the PSP game is a rip off, in that case.

    There's a stark contrast between Lumines 2 "The game" and Lumines Live "The game"

  • Agent_Llama #36 5 years ago

    It's only a choice if you know what you're getting in the first place... Rip-off merchants.

  • Kiigan #37 5 years ago

    "I doubt is was a mistake, and if it pays off then they will indeed do it over and over again"

    That's a ridiculous notion - that Microsoft intentionally sought to "deceive" anyone. From the very start, Microsoft has spent spent spent on Xbox Live - the intention has always been to grow the platform than to be profitable in the short-term. That is still the case now with XBLA. This was hardly a big scam - how stupid would they have to be to go out of their way to cheat their hard-core early adopters, the first-year owners of Xbox 360s who use Xbox Live?

    The truth, as usual, is more boring than that. The model of selling products like this (with certain extra play modes available to purchase as an add-on) is perfectly reasonable. The problem is just that it wasn't well communicated exactly what people were getting for their 1200 MP, so people feel ripped off. Microsoft know this, they aren't stupid, and I'm pretty sure that next time an XBLA game uses this kind of pricing model, it'll be stated much more plainly.

    Of course, if people had properly played the demo beforehand, they'd have noticed that some modes of play required add-on downloads. It just wasn't clear from the purchase screen.
    Edited by 2 at 24/10/06 @ 13:53

  • Hughes. #38 5 years ago

    Canessa says - "Now, if you want to consume more levels, because it's more of a level-based play mode, if you want to consume more levels, if you want more puzzles, you've gotta get some downloadable content for that. That's fine."

    So actual game levels are now "consumables"? These levels are finished product, available on other formats for quite some time. Not including them is deliberately leaving out content of an existing title.

    @Wonga

    I get your point about Lumines having once been a full price game, but that content is done and dusted and could all have been included, it's a "Full" game, which I am led to believe is how the pared down 1200 point pack was described in Live Arcade. There is no expense of physical media for them to produce, and no distribution costs over and above any charges MS may or may not make for hosting the software for download.

    Also, Lumines 2 is available to pre-order at £17.99 from a good many outlets, so maybe you can understand how, for some, the value represented by the "choice" on offer is hard to see.

  • dcangel #39 5 years ago

    It's a slippery, slippery slope.

  • spk #40 5 years ago

    exactly dcangel. This is the big story today. It`s not that Lik-Sang thing, which is just an ongoing instance of corporate warfare. It happened before and it`ll happen again. There is a market for imports and someone will supply. Paid downloadable content, on the other hand, is an attempt to change the model of how we buy, sell and enjoy, or "consume" our games. It`s about destroying the second hand market, moving from a sense of ownership with our games to accepting that we only license their use, making us pay more, getting us used to that over a long period of time until, for our kids, it seems the normal thing. Remember that in videogames when companies talk about "giving consumers choice" what they really mean is "making bigger profits." We already have a wonderful barter system that everyone is happy with - it`s Microsoft and Sony who want to change it. Sony has a wonderful opportunity to look like the gamer`s friend by rejecting this kind of thing, but of course they won`t. When Microsoft shoot themselves in the foot they will insist on shooting themselves in both. Buying cosmetic add-ons to games might be acceptable, and is probably the best we can hope for, but selling incomplete games is insidious and manipulative - we have to reject it. Once the model is accepted there will be no going back. It`s the slippery slope and the thin end of the wedge all in one.