Mizuguchi defends Lumines 360

By Tom Bramwell Published 19 October, 2006

As pricing comes under fire.

Lumines creator Tetsuya Mizuguchi has defended the decision to offer a lot of the Xbox Live Arcade version's content as downloadable extras rather than including them in the full game.

Lumines Live launched yesterday, and is the joint most expensive game on the service at 1200 Microsoft points (GBP 10.20 / EUR 13.96), but it's the manner in which Q Entertainment asks users for extra investment to customise the game that's drawn early criticism.

An "Advance Pack" (as-yet unreleased) will cost 600 Microsoft points (GBP 5.10 / EUR 6.98) while other game modes feature only a handful of levels, and prompt the gamer to watch out for further downloadable add-ons in future.

Mizuguchi told IGN that one reason for the download/pricing strategy was technical ("We have to include everything in 50MB") but that the other reason was the desire to let people customise Lumines. "We want people to look at Lumines and, depending on the artist, or the season, or the music, we want to give them different reasons to consider buying the game," he explained.

Future updates may add additional features as well as skins (which add new music and backgrounds, and also vary gameplay conditions), he said. "Maybe there will be new ways that we erase the blocks in the future. Maybe we add different shapes or forms or colors; right now there are no limits or boundaries. Maybe users might give us new ideas. We're hoping to hear from users what they would like to see in future updates, in fact. They will help guide us to create new updates," he added.

The veteran designer also said that it might be possible in future to support more than two people in the game's online multiplayer mode. "Maybe in the future four players will work," he told IGN. "We even tested with six to eight players, and we didn't accomplish the ideal scenario with that many players, so at this point we just aren't satisfied with what we came up with. So for now it's a two-player game."

Look out for our review of Lumines Live in the very near future.

Picture of Tom.

About Tom Bramwell

Tom is Operations director of Eurogamer Network and Editor-at-Large of Eurogamer.net. He joined the company in February 2000.

Read more articles from Tom by visiting the Tom Bramwell archive page.

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Comments (108) Latest comment 5 years ago

Comments threads automatically close after 30 days, but please feel free to continue chatting on the forum!

  • Moogrose #1 5 years ago

    I think its slightly shit that you have to but things that are in the menu... buying the "full" game is like paying for a demo... if choice (and technical limities) were an issue they can just release the other packs for free surely... i call bullshit.

  • quedex #2 5 years ago

    What about the mythical "Puzzle Pack" the game tells you to download?
    Is that bundled in with the Advanced pack now, or is that still going to be an extra purchase?

  • lambtron #3 5 years ago

    Obviously took a look at how GT is going to work on the PS3...

    Death to this kind of BS - episodic content is fine and dandy but this hardly falls into that category - this is more like episodic textures!

  • gizmo #4 5 years ago

    Waaaaaay too expensive.

    NO SALE.

  • smoison #5 5 years ago

    Tetris is still 10000 Times better then this crap.

  • Baz_Dude #6 5 years ago

    Hopefully they see sense soon....

  • escapedape #7 5 years ago

    He clearly doesn't even get why people are so upset at the underhanded way that this is sold and the shocking lack of content for such an expensive Live game. The 'we want players to customise their game' is all well and good, but to be forced into buying your other game modes - and this is basically what's happening here, content is being deliberately left out - is appalling.

    To those who will say 'but I would pay £30 for this as it's essentially a full price title', I say release it as a £30 title, put it in a box with ALL of the content, 1000 achievement points etc. Well yeah, that and the fact that it is NOT a complete product as is.

    Bankshot Billiards contains a wealth of content for its 1200 points and yet does still feel overpriced next to 800 point games such as Cloning Clyde, Outpost Kaloki X, Mutant Storm Reloaded and Marble Blast Ultra. Lumines, with its 'thanks for playing the few levels we gave you, now buy more', just feels wrong.

  • Forebodin #8 5 years ago

    There's no excuse for failing to clarify that the 1200pt game is not the full game. (calling it a base pack, when no other packs are even available doesn't suffice)

    I'm beginning to think the marketplace should be for free content only, this microtransaction/nickel and dime drama will inevitably only get worse.

  • OllyJ #9 5 years ago

    played it and to be honest I didn't love it, Hexic is better and it's free. If it was cheaper it would be a no brainer as I love puzzle games but yeah I feel like I'm being led round the back of Aldi to get my phone nicked.

    Next we'll be paying for "options" screens! you just wait and see! Now you can turn the SFX Up and down for 600mp!!

  • Tricky #10 5 years ago

    /goes back to playing Hexic HD or Zookeeper on the DS

  • spidermanalf #11 5 years ago

    It feels like I have paid all those points for a glorified demo.

    It is just wrong. The full game should be a proper game, not 5 levels and then 'buy more'.

    Bag of toss.

  • penhalion #12 5 years ago

    If Microsoft are aware of this travesty and misuse of the live arcade model, then they should pull this title. It clearly is being sold in a misleading fashion. As others have mentioned, you are paying for a demo!

    Microsoft, if you actually pay any attention to your paying public, pull this shite until they see sense and replace it with the new mutant storm or some other product. Unless of course you want to encourage live arcade game writers to rip off your subscribers!

  • escapedape #13 5 years ago

    The thing is, it seems to have come from the greediness of Q Entertainment - up until now, Live Arcade has not had anything which has felt like a con.

    Games such as Crystal Quest offer extra sound and skin packs which genuinely allow consumers to customise their game if they want to - without crippling the main product by holding back content. It is genuinely optional, and the way that Lumines is structured feels anything but.

    Likewise, Outpost Kaloki X has downloads for extra scenarios (some of which are free!), so if you enjoy the main game (which is already very fully featured - along with two story modes it has a scenario mode featuring plenty of extra levels) you are given the option of buying the extra stuff to have more to play with. Crucially - and this is where Lumines falls down - the main game does not feel cut down, or that it is missing this extra content.

    Lumines feels like a demo for the main game, and at 1200 points it is absolutely disgusting that there is such a lack of content in the game.

  • schoozzzmmii #14 5 years ago

    Where's the rest of the game!

    It's like buying a car and being told that the wheels are optional extras.

  • groovychainsaw #15 5 years ago

    There will be extra packs for each of the play modes coming soon, I have read somewhere, so ultimately we will be looking at more than the PSP/PS2 versions for the same functionality. Luckily I only downloadxed the demo first, didnt think too much of it, and decided it was too expensive nayway. There was no way I was going to keep paying for it....

  • escapedape #16 5 years ago

    @ Bill Door

    The problem is that we're being told that the game features lots more than it actually does. The Vs. CPU mode has ONE LEVEL - and if you want to play more of it, you have to shell out for a pack that isn't even available yet. So users can't 'customise' the experience even if they want to, and they are shelling out for a glorified demo which features less content than many of the 800 point (and, frankly, some 400 point) games.

  • Macross #17 5 years ago

    I paid for this too, I didnt mind the expensive price, but I was REALLY annoyed to find out that it was pretty much half a game!!

    I would have happily even paid more for the full title and if anything after was added as free extras then great, but this does take the piss as it stands.

  • t8yman #18 5 years ago

    I call BS on this too, and I usually buy just about anything on live, have bought most of the arcade titles so far (even scramble!) but the bottom line is- I just didnt see what all the hype was about, its tetris with prettier graphics to me (am I missing something?)

    Its hardly a full title as stated earlier, and what there is isnt worth the extortionate price anyway. Keep it mizuguchi-san

  • paulf #19 5 years ago

    welcome to the real next gen - buy half a game now half a game later

  • Dizzy #20 5 years ago

    Sounds just like a big money grab to me.... I think he took it a bit far, no way that Lumines is worth so much money. I can understand his ideas but they really fucked up with this one... next time why not make the base Lumines free and charge for extra packs.
    Edited by 2 at 19/10/06 @ 09:58

  • Wrestlevania #21 5 years ago

    "We've recognised it's a cash cow -- we're just going to milk it, that's all."

    Kindly sod off.

  • asphaltcowboy #22 5 years ago

    Hmm, as much as I want to play Lumines (I'm not buying a PSP) I think I'll wait til they sort this out/release everything in one big pack! I wouldn't mind paying £10 for it... as long as it was the full game!

  • Steroyd #23 5 years ago

    Obviously took a look at how GT is going to work on the PS3...

    Err... no this pricing structure has been rumoured ever since Lumines 360 was announced (Waaay before TGS), if anything it's the other way round. ;)

    Polyphony even admitted they were selling a gloriied Demo.

    A bit of a weak excuse though i'm sure MS has some nice Compression techniques they didn't use.

  • JonFE #24 5 years ago

    Not to put people down or anything, but why don't all of you who paid for Lumines in full and -rightfully in my opinion- feel cheated, let Microsoft know your feelings by asking for a refund, and encourage others in the same boat as you do likewise? There are more chances to address this by notifing them directly than complaining in EG's comments/forums (even if Peter Moore is reading them :).

    This must be rectified and Microsoft is the only one with the responsibility to persuade Mizuguchi and Co. to conform.

  • JonFE #25 5 years ago

    @Wonga: LOL

  • Steroyd #26 5 years ago

    let Microsoft know your feelings by asking for a refund

    Refund?

    A Microtransaction?

    HA!!

  • Stormflood #27 5 years ago

    My gf forced me to buy it last night. She loved it on PSP. It wasn't long before we discovered I'd paid for half a ****ing game!

    Absolute rip-off.

  • escapedape #28 5 years ago

    @JonFE

    For the record, I haven't downloaded it.

    Everything on the Marketplace does come with a disclaimer which states that no refunds are available for the content downloaded.

    Head over to http://www.majornelson.co m and check out how people ARE giving MS a hard time over this!

  • trav #29 5 years ago

    and to think I almost brought this. Hell no now.

  • Darren #30 5 years ago

    I downloaded this game last night and decided to pay the 1200 points for the full game. I was more than a little shocked when I discovered that I'd only paid for the Base pack and had to buy the rest of the game in bits!!! At no point did the game state that so I feel like I've been cheated. :x

  • stormuk #31 5 years ago

    It's like buying a car and being told that the wheels are optional extras.

    I take it youve never purchaed an Audi :)

  • asphaltcowboy #32 5 years ago

    @trav:

    brought it where?
    Edited by 1 at 19/10/06 @ 10:18

  • SwedBear #33 5 years ago

    I don't mind at all that they release packs for added content to the different features in the game.

    In fact - I think it is great. I love Lumines on the PSP but I never gotten into the Puzzle Mode. I tried the Puzzle Mode yesterday on Lumines Live and realized I just don't like it. This means I save some cash on a feature I don't want to use.

    In the end the prize for the "full game" (all packs) seems to be cheaper than what I paid for Lumines on my PSP (or Lumines onmy phone actually) and definitely cheaper than Lumines 2.

    As for being half a game. Well, I had a fun time yesteray playing the challenge mode and then some puzzle mode and ended up being completely creamed in Multiplayer Battle over Live (it was pathetic to see how bad I was/good that guy was).

    But .... as much as I don't mind packs etc. - why the hell didn't they at least have everything out yesterday? Now I play the Versus CPU mode and get 1 lousy level and then a message that I can get more by buying a non-existant pack??

    It's the way the released this that irritates me. Just clearly on the download page state exactly what is included in the base pack and then have all the other packs ready so that the consumer can pick and choose what he likes? Isntead now we get people wondering why they cannot keep playing the mode they want just becasue the packs isn't out.

    So - in contrast to many here I neither think it is bad to slice the game up and offer various packs or that the base pack (or the game with all packs) is overpriced. I just find it stupid to release it without the extra content that we need.

    Oh, and they could include a few more versus CPU modes IMHO.

    /B

  • SwedBear #34 5 years ago

    Oh, and to everyone saying that you are glad you never bought it. The game actually is good. It's Lumines and if you liked it on the PSP you will like it here (at least I did).

    It's not like you cannot play anything in the base-pack. The challenge mode seems to have enough to keep you playing for quite some time (I opened up 3 new skins during the evening) and had some nice games over Live plus it seems to have at least 5 or 6 puzzle levels?

    So I don't personally feel like it is "half a game". The single versus CPu level though is way to little.

    And why didn't they just release all the packs at the same time?

    /B

  • crazyhorse174 #35 5 years ago

    Downloaded the demo last night, played it a bit and didnt think much of it.

    I'll stick with the PSP thankyouverymuch and maybe think about paying for the Live one later if they drop the price or give away some of the addons for nothing.

    Incidentally, heres a point. Normal boxed games depreciate in price as the age. Will Live games do the same? (i.e. will the first batch of Live games released, be available cheaper, or even for free in the next few months - seeing as how they've been on Live for about a year?)

  • trevd72 #36 5 years ago

    "It still works out cheaper than buying the PSP version, so whats the problem?"

    fuck off. you can get the psp version cheap or second hand. thats the problem with these online transaction you pay what they say and shut up. its the way they want it this gen, its to stop games being re-sold ect.

    every game bought means every penny goes to them. but also this gen is all about squeezing the last penny out of gamers. dont fall for it. basically its a "here is a disk and bare bones game, then pay money to flesh it out" situation which is dressed up as give the gamer a choice.

    it could be the last gen i am investing if this continues. I can see the PC taking off massive with cheap indy developers. over the next 3-5 years.

  • dbeamish #37 5 years ago

    I dont know what the fuss is about this game. Had it on my phone and 360 - both were just boring. Columns/tetris are better

  • lennon #38 5 years ago

    /Have bought it.

    /Is very happy. No need to keep the virtually rednundant PSP now. If I can find someone to take it off my hands.

    /Still love this many times more than Tetris

  • pjmaybe #39 5 years ago

    WE LOVE YOUR MONEYS!!!!

    Peej

  • haowan #40 5 years ago

    1200 point version should be 400 points if anything as it's a demo. Other option is to upgrade the demo version to the 1200 point version.
    600 point upgrade should be 400 points (or 800 - 1200 if demo is upgraded).
    The other two should be 200-250 points.

    This backlash is almost universal and pretty funny.

  • crazyhorse174 #41 5 years ago

    "It still works out cheaper than buying the PSP version, so whats the problem?"

    I got the PSP version for £15 brand new from Game. Could've probably got it cheaper second-hand, but wanted a new copy.

    Oh, and I dont have to download any of the "extra" levels for it when I advance enough...

  • Rambaldi #42 5 years ago

    Shit old-hat game. Shit pricing. Shit treatment of consumer.

    Just shit really.

  • mingster #43 5 years ago

    definately too expensive

  • Carpathian #44 5 years ago

    There's a lot of brown-stuff being flung around by people at the moment on this - can I just check I have the facts straight before deciding whether to go with this or not:-

    * 5 levels out of the 50

    * 1 level out of the 10

    * Only 12 skins

    * No video and other features in the demo version at all

    * £10 for the things above - pay for the rest.

  • Psychotext #45 5 years ago

    Hopefully MS will do something about this... it's taking the p*ss.

  • Hunam85 #46 5 years ago

    Hows about you keep you game and ill keep my cash.

    /buys psp version

  • Ainudil #47 5 years ago

    I don't mind EXTRA material. But what we have here is a crippled full version game where I have to keep on paying to recieve it entirely.

    It is a case of bullshit and I am boycotting it.

    Luckely one can enjoy Lumines on other platforms. Free even: http://www.frogtoss .com/verticube
    Edited by 1 at 19/10/06 @ 11:17

  • Darren #48 5 years ago

    @Carpathian - Is that all you get for £10? I've played free demos that had more content than that! /shock

    That means that in order to get the full game which has around 5-10 times more content, you're looking at paying at least £50!!! /double shock

    I like the game but anything over £10 and I'd rather have it on a disc and the COMPLETE game for £20 as it's nowhere near worth £50 in my opinion. Also at least I'd be able to lend the game out, trade it in or play it on a friend's 360.

  • mingster #49 5 years ago

    Actually its an even bigger rip off than i first thought.

    You aren't even getting a physical item you can resell its locked to you and thats it.

    At least if you pay £10 for lumines on the PSP you can trade it in for half price when your bored of it.

    Here your paying full wack for half a product have to shell out an unknown amount more to get access t5o something you already should have and then can't even trade it in ...

    total ripoff sorry.

  • haowan #50 5 years ago

    It's nowhere near £50 Darren - back of the class.
    Edited by 1 at 19/10/06 @ 11:23

  • neosalad #51 5 years ago

    i just hope that enough people dont buy this, then surely they will realise they've totally fucked up what could have been such a huge hit on xbox live marketplace!

    months back i was soooo looking forward to this title. wheras the closer it got and news of the 1,200 points + more i basically have lost all interest in buying this overpriced mess.

    800 points max for me i'm afraid. nevermind the fact that the game isnt even full if u do buy it.



  • oerhoert #52 5 years ago

    <em>Tetris is still 10000 Times better then this crap.</em>

    This is utterly, utterly wrong. Lumines is better designed than Tetris, and if you don't see it that way, I'll just recommend you play the game a bit more. I think it's the most perfect action puzzler I've ever played, and that's saying something.

  • peterfll #53 5 years ago

    Hmmm.

    I'm with LeDel and SwedBear on this.

    I think Lumines is a great game. It's worth £10 and I played it for 90 minutes solid last night before I realised it was making my cold-induced headache worse so I had to switch it off.

    I also think those complaining that extra skins are not akin to extra levels (in other games) don't understand the concept of Lumines. The skins *are* the extra levels.

    With that in mind, I think this type of sales technique is a slippery slope. I guess I'm not offended too much by this game as the locked play modes are not modes I'm particularly interested in and the "base" game feels like a whole game to me.

    But I think it's good to be vocal about this type of payment model, and clearly some feel aggrieved by it, and there's a huge potential for misuse of it - by MS, Sony and Nintendo.

  • escapedape #54 5 years ago

    Lol @ Lumines better designed than Tetris.

  • Carpathian #55 5 years ago

    @ Darren - from reading here, MajorNelson and other places it seems that some of the modes are in place but cut out after only a few levels and then ask you to purchase a pack that doesn't exist yet in order to continue.

    That 1/10 and 5/50 is a pair of figures I've seen a few people post so as far as I know it's the case for two of the modes - vs CPU is the 1/10 for example.

    As far as I know that is correct but obviously this is the internet and people do get this wrong ! ;o)

  • crazyhorse174 #56 5 years ago

    "Lol @ Lumines better designed than Tetris."

    Who gives a flying fuck which is better?? Thats not the bloody argument here!

  • Nige #57 5 years ago

    People power...

    And just to add weight to it, I say this is wrong too.

    No retailer/channel margins - all profit, so give us a break. Despite how good it is, this is just a puzzle game - pricing (parts of it) so far above everything else on the service is stupid, and this response should have been predicted.

    Take your collective heads out of your respective bottoms, publishers - this is a route we don't want to go down, and you ain't gonna force us!

    Your move.

  • nickthegun #58 5 years ago

    The Major Nelson comments board is hilarious. It starts off:

    Thanks Major Nelson! Let me suck your fat one!

    XBOX ROXX!

    Thanks Major Nelson! U R TEH BEST! and I love Lumnies!

    Then the cranks get involved and it turns into:

    FUCK YOU! THIS GAME IS A RIP OFF!!

  • Azazel #59 5 years ago

    Hexic and Doom will probably keep me entertained enough for the forseeable future as far as Live Arcade goes.

  • Inflatable #60 5 years ago

    I think MS should drop the stupid 50MB limit for XBL Arcade games.. I mean, who's downloading these games on a MU anyway?? The fact that not all Xbox 360's have a harddrive bites them in the ass again..

    They have more of these stupid limitations for gamedevelopers to keep XBL a unified experience for everybody.. Meaning they limit the abilities of a lot of features in games for online play.. The ammount of bandwidth a game is allowed to use etc, also for voice etc, it's all limited to make sure even low bandwidth users can have a fun experience, but at the same time they are limiting others who can handle a lot more.. Always aiming for the lowest common denominator as they call it.. It's one of the biggest disadvantages of having a unified closed system like XBL imho..

  • neuroniky #61 5 years ago

    "It's the way the released this that irritates me. Just clearly on the download page state exactly what is included in the base pack and then have all the other packs ready so that the consumer can pick and choose what he likes? Isntead now we get people wondering why they cannot keep playing the mode they want just becasue the packs isn't out."

    I can't agree more. Great game, but it should have had all the content unlockable from day one, and what was included in each pack clearly stated in the description.
    Didn't find it a rip off however, if I had known what was included I would have bought it anyway.

  • pjmaybe #62 5 years ago

    "Hopefully MS will do something about this... it's taking the p*ss."

    You're right, they will do something about this. Make sure it's the standard business model for XBLA from now on because so many of you fuckwits are buying this :)

    Peej

  • peterfll #63 5 years ago

    Now peej..... we're not all fuckwits mate. I for one am more than happy paying a tenner for the version released. However, that's not to say I won't complain about another game released in a similar way, where I DO have to pay extra for something I believe should have shipped with the initial version.

    It's just that for Lumines I'm not in that position.

  • J*C #64 5 years ago

    As you can quite clearly see mr mizuguchi, its not popular, and know ones happy about it. now go and quitely knock on bills door, and tell him its not going to work. its ok go on! he wont bite!

  • silke #65 5 years ago

    Wonga, indeed. I think most people are make a big mistake to compare this game to other Live Arcade games escpecially considering the fact that alot of them are around 20 years old. Lumines Live! was always proclaimed as a new kind of Live Acrade game, a game that would use the instantly downloadable concept that Live Arcade offers but do something much broader and more daring with it. And that's part of the problem.

    It probobaly never should have been launched in Live Arcade at all in case of a pupblic misunderstanding (which just happend) in comparison to how earlier Arcade games have worked. I personally never had any problem prior to the release to understand just what Tetsuya Mizuguchi and Q were attempting to do. This is a bold, although not perfect, move of offering games in a manner of your own choosing and the choice to pick just how much or what you want.

    And when I read the new interview with Mizuguchi at IGN he answers very clearly exactly what his ambition is with this concept. And it just happens to be exactly what I thought. So, no Mizuguchi, everyone is not against you, not at all. For the future, give people choice. Here's the link:

    [link url=htt p://xbox360.ign.com/articles/740/740214p2.html
    ]http://xb ox360.ign.com/articles/740/7402...[/link]

    However, the information of what you're getting when you purchase the base pack should undoubtly be made much, much clearer.
    Edited by 1 at 19/10/06 @ 12:15

  • viperfoxbat #66 5 years ago

    No full fledged game should be broken into pieces and sold for more then what the whole game would cost.

  • mingster #67 5 years ago

    Yup choice is great if you can make an informed decision...

    Therefore needs a disclaimer before you buy saying exactly what you get for your money how many levels whats unlocked and what isn't.

    In this case it wasn't clearly defined beforehand and people have felt short changed.

  • holloguts #68 5 years ago

    This is one game that needs to fail on XBLA.

  • Darren #69 5 years ago

    "haowan - It's nowhere near £50 Darren - back of the class."

    Would it help if I told you I'm already at the back of the class? LOL

    Anyway how do you know that this game won't end up costing upwards of £50 when you weigh in all the content that's planned for it, stuff that is probably already included in the £15 PSP version?

  • playgen #70 5 years ago

    The excuse that you get a choice of what parts of the game you want to buy, and dont have to pay for the rest is rubbish. They will develop all the levels and content anyway, but instead of just giving it to you, they hold it back to squeeze more money out of it. Personally ive never played a game and thought "i wish it had only 10% of the content so i could have saved £5"
    I dont care how good the game is, if you dont want this rip off practice to continue, do your bit and dont buy it!
    Edited by 2 at 19/10/06 @ 12:43

  • geepersd #71 5 years ago

    well I played the demo a fair bit, and could clearly see what would be unlocked in the base pack or advanced pack. still can't justify the price myself, especially as I never pay rrp for retail, this is too close to the price of a boxed game that I can't sell on or the like

  • jack_klugman #72 5 years ago

    This is one game that needs to fail on XBLA.

    What a rotten thing to say.

  • Machiavel #73 5 years ago

    From xbox.com

    The base pack for Lumines Live! comes equipped with almost a dozen skins.

    Is it really less than a dozen skins?!?

  • mingster #74 5 years ago

    The thing is Lumines on PSP doesnt cost £30 it can be found 2nd hand for less than a tenner and new for £15

    /plus you can resell it again and get money back
    Edited by 1 at 19/10/06 @ 13:10

  • playgen #75 5 years ago

    But the game isnt £35 on psp anymore is it, you can get new copies for £10 now. So they could have released it as a budget game, and since their saving money on distribution and packaging that should be reflected in the price. You can get away with charging £30 for a puzzle game on a handheld because people expect and want more simplistic gams on the move, but you cant charge the same amount for a game on a console, people dont see the same value in it. The full game should have been £10 as a download simple as that.

  • Roamer #76 5 years ago

    Why do I get the distinct impression that some of the posters here are Microsoft employees? How anyone could think these pricing schemes are a good idea is beyond me.

    Although, I'm also surprised that people are willing to bend over for Microsoft and shell out for a Xbox Live Gold account, accept the new RRP for "Next-gen" games and invest in those stupid microtransactions.

    Quite frankly - I'm quite annoyed with the Xbox 360.
    Edited by 1 at 19/10/06 @ 13:16

  • crazyhorse174 #77 5 years ago

    Wonga, both of your arguments are flawed.

    Yes, more people probably would have bought Lumines for £30 plus, because:
    1) They could trade it when they get fed up with it, and
    2) They would get the whole lot for a single up-front payment, with no extra costs.

    And your argument about Oblivion, is quite frankly bollocks too! The reason its bollocks is, with Oblivion you can replay the game through again if you like and take a different path. So even if you didnt play as a warrior, a thief or a mage the first time, you at least have the option of playing as them the second, third, fourth, whatever time around, without you having to pay extra cash.

    And the extras that they've released since add extra content to the game, but at a nominal fee. And the important thing about the add-on extras, is that...wait for it THEY'RE EXTRA!!! They add some extra gameplay elements to the whole thing, but they're not important to the rest of the game. In other words, if you dont buy them, you're not missing out on important game elements.

    Which is what is happening here with Lumines Live...

  • playgen #78 5 years ago

    The difference with reisdent evil 4 for example is they added new content to the game, they didnt take anything out!
    If your going to release a year old game on a different platform you either make it a cheap budget title or add something new.

  • mattigan #79 5 years ago

    I don't get it, Lumines as a game that is, I played the PSP version, and I've played the Xbox Demo and I just don't get it, its sideways tetris with better music. What's all the fuss about?

    P.S. if they are going to sell game modes separately then it would probably be better to sell whole modes separately and not a bit of everything at once in one version. So you can buy the shole single player game, , and bolt on the whole multiplayer part at a later date if you fancied it, then maybe the whole puzzle one, or vice versa. If that had done it this way then I think it may have worked better as a business model.

  • jiveguy #80 5 years ago

    The trade in argument is a pile of bollocks, stop using it. Digital distribution is just a fact of gaming life now.

    Still, the prices being charged for these things is still too high. And to be honest we are to blame. I dont for one minute believe the tired argument that development costs are increasing beyond the means of developers when games sales (in the US atleast) are up over 10% on last year. So it basicaly comes down to us being willing to pay up to 65 euro (75 if you are still using real shops) for new games or 1200 beans for partial ports of older games.

    So dont blame Mizuguchi, MS, Sony or Bill Gates personally for this. Blame yourself.

    Edited by 1 at 19/10/06 @ 13:28

  • silke #81 5 years ago

    I agree totally with Wonga, as I made clear in my earlier post. And no, the 360 version has alot of ehancements, such as a great online multiplayer mode(which is a MAJOR plus), a skin selection challenge mode (you can pick your favorite tracks and play them in any order you wish - a great feature which was sadly missing from the original).

    Add some statistic functions such as an evaluator of your performance, leaderboards and of course achievements and a Replay Theater and what you have is not just the same old PSP game.

  • Veldaban #82 5 years ago

    The fact that you can't trade in the game isn't the issue, that's hardly a problem with Lumines Live, just a problem with XBLA (if you want to call it a problem, I find it a bigger problem that retailers take the money of the trade-ins and developers see nothing)

    The fact that the PSP version can now be found a lot cheaper than when it was originally released is also not really the issue. That's what happens with games and releases on different platforms rarely drop the price. I'm sure you can pick up (say) Oblivion a lot cheaper than you could originally, but that's not going to affect the price of the PS3 version when it comes out, nor should it.

    Personally I find the 1200 points for the base pack MORE than excellent value (while I find a lot of other titles on XBLA overpriced). I'm happy to admit that I'm not the best player in the world and while I can get through the first few skins easily enough it's going to take me quite a while to get through all the base pack skins. I might be tired of the game by then and never even reach that stage. If you're a really good player, or a really hard-core player, it might not take you so long and you'll want the extra skins. Fine, buy it, but I'm sick of funding other people's gaming habits.

  • mingster #83 5 years ago

    why is the trade in argument bollocks?
    I've always traded my games in when i'm fed up with them.

    If a downloaded equivalent was not linked to a specific machine and could be downloaded on a different PC /Consol with no protection fair enough ie: Galactic Civilizations 2. had no problem with this.

    Also it should be cheaper a digital version.. no manual or printing or disc duplications costs, no box, no resell value therefore should be way cheaper.

  • mattigan #84 5 years ago

    Come now Herod, you know exactly what I'm getting at.

    Lay the tetris playing field on its side, still drop blocks in from the top and clear blocks of 4 instead of lines, similar concepts to tetris, what really sets it apart is the look and sound of the thing.

    But I still don't get it

  • SwedBear #85 5 years ago

    What the fuck does it care that the PSP version now is less than £30? It was a full price game when it was released and Lumines 2 most certainly will be.

    And FWIW I don't see whow I can ply Lumines on my wide-screen TV with the PSP versions. They are separate versions perfect for separate occasions. I play PSP Lumines when I am traverling and now I can play it when I am home on a big telly. It's the same stupid argument people have when a former PS2 game is ported to PSP. It's different formats.

    Fine, some of you think Lumines is boring. That's your perogative. But that has zero to do with if this way of selling the game is good or bad.

    As for it being bullshit to say that you are fine with not having to pay for parts of the game you are not interested in. Why is it bullshit? I don't like the Puzzle mode. Now I don't actually have to pay for it. Should I be upset for that?

    If the game had been released on a disc for £30 I would have thought it was excellent value. But that's because I like Lumines even if it is "just" a puzzle game. Heck, most Puzzle games last me a lot longer than other type of games.

    Lets at least try to discuss the real issue here. It's not whether Lumines is a good or bad game, that is completely up to each person, or even if it is worth £30 or not. The issue here is if the whole sales models with a basic game and then add-ons for more features is a good one or not.

    I simply don't see the whole model as a big problem. I think they screwed this up simply by having to little info and not having the add-on packs ready. I also think they were way too conservative with the content in the basic pack (which is MS fault with their 50 MB limit). They should remedy this quickly by releasing a free add-on with more content and then make sure all the other add-ons are available as soon as possible.

    In fact - I wonder if it would have been better for them to release a complete basic pack with nothing in it for free and then allow you to buy each game feature in the add-on packs. So if you like me liked Challenge and Versus-pack you could buy these game-modes without having to spend anything on the Puzzle mode.
    And instead of taking 1200 points for the basic version then make the packs more expensive.

    Someone put up a list for what is included. I'll try to see if I can see if that is correct tonight. I know I played the challenege game to level ... 9 or 10 (and 3 new skins) or something like that. Since there is 12 skins I think at least the challenge game hould keep you busy a long time. Not sure how it works in the other modes. It looked like Puzzle-mode only was 5 levels (unless you open more as you progress, I hate this mode) and versus CPu definitely only is 1 level. Not sure about online.

    To me the whole issue will become moot as soon as they have the add-on packs up as you then will be able to tailor the game exactly like you want it and to a price that I still think is fair.

    Roamer: You do understand that it is possible to have an opinion without being either a Microsoft or a Sony-plant? But then again, your rarely if ever post anything else than trolls so why even bother trying to be polite to you.

  • mattigan #86 5 years ago

    They should give you a unique "transfer of ownership" code with Live arcade purchases that you can give away or sell on Ebay to the highest bidder, once the code is activated on Live by the new owner, then your origional version of the game would be locked back down to a demo version. Easy Peasy, of course your original version would still work untill you connected to live again, but you would connect eventually.

  • neuroniky #87 5 years ago

    Question: why everybody says this is a pricey game, while 2 Namco Arcade 20+ years old game cost more than the version released yesterday? While I don't appreciate the lack of clarity in selling this, not telling you what you're buying and what you're not, I still think these are top $$ when compared to games such as Scramble, Pac Man and the likes being sold at 800 points.........

  • escapedape #88 5 years ago

    The retro arcade titles, with the exception of Street Fighter 2, are 400 points - not 800.

  • gizmo #89 5 years ago

    This thread is getting like a universe.

  • escapedape #90 5 years ago

    So that's three retro titles for the same price as a crippled new title. Or one retro title plus one fully featured and original title such as Cloning Clyde.

    So 1200 points for Geometry Wars and Cloning Clyde, for example? I know what my preference would be.

  • Darren #91 5 years ago

    @BuckoA51 - You make a very good point of why we should contact Trading Standards - when I downloaded the Trial that is what I got. However, I clicked on Buy FULL Game to purchase it for 1,200 points and that is exactly what I did NOT get. I think that alone is grounds for complaint as it's misleading and had I known I was only getting part of the game for my £10, I most certainly would not have paid for it.

  • neuroniky #92 5 years ago

    Ok, Scramble + Pac Man + Dig Dug or Lumines?
    I know what my answer would be. :D

  • Roamer #93 5 years ago

    Swedbear wrote: Roamer: You do understand that it is possible to have an opinion without being either a Microsoft or a Sony-plant? But then again, your rarely if ever post anything else than trolls so why even bother trying to be polite to you.

    You do understand that it is possible to have a negative opinion without being troller? How can you say that I rarely post anything else than trolls? I don't, but I admit to being a "tad" negative towards Microsoft and the whole "while the cat is away"-pricing scheme they've got going. "Hey! You'll probably not going to get an Xbox360 anyway, why do you care?" you'll say - well I care because it sets precedents for the competition as well - it'll affect my gaming and financial situation indirectly.

  • Benj #94 5 years ago

    I am annoyed with it being half a game, but I'm moments away from buying it anyway because the demo frankly turns me on.

    Some one stop me please.

  • playgen #95 5 years ago

    To the few people who dont see a problem with this game, its not just this one game its what it represents for the future. If we dont complain about this sort of thing now, in a few years youll have to pay £10 for each level of a game (extreme example but you get my point).
    Paying to download games is fine, if they pass on the savings from distribution, packaging etc, but they dont. Buying games online was supposed to be about giving small indie developers a chance to sell games, but its just getting full of the big boy developers out to makes themseleves a lot more money for the same old product.
    Edited by 1 at 19/10/06 @ 14:27

  • Steroyd #96 5 years ago

    A Microsoft related news getting 100 comments... and it's not about Halo.

    It's the end of the universe i tell ya.

  • Xerx3s #97 5 years ago

    We're hoping to hear from users what they would like to see in future updates, in fact. They will help guide us to create new updates," he added.

    A full game would be a good place to start.

  • bauhaus #98 5 years ago

    Whats this MICROtransaction crap, noting Micro about a tenner in my opinion

    the more people buy into this the more they will do it, simple as that

  • playgen #99 5 years ago

    If enough people complain it does make a difference, in Japan everyone complained about the PS3 price and sony dropped it, it all helps their public image and their profits in the long run.
    And obviously a part of complaing is not to buy the games!
    And games companies should be interested in saving customers money. Ripping customers off will make them unhappy and they will buy elsewhere, they would charge £100 a game now if they could get away with it!
    Edited by 1 at 19/10/06 @ 15:26

  • bauhaus #100 5 years ago

    They will charge with whatever the market supports, buying content at this price encourages it, not buying it (a) saves you dosh (b) sends them a signal

    Another thing that pisses me off, is your not adding to the 2nd hand value of your console, all this shit is tied to your ID, these boys sure have got it in for the 2nd hand market, to be honest even though I consider Gaming to be a hobby (own most of the major consoles and several PCs) without access to cheap software I would`nt buy the hardware.

    Long term surely this has gotta hurt the hardware/software boys!!

    Music industry is going the same way, how fucked are record collectors by i-tunes and pap like that?!?!

    You no longer own the shit you pay for, yet still pay a handsome price for it

  • pjmaybe #101 5 years ago

    Oh well if Mizguchi wanted user feedback, he's got it by the bucketload.

    Can someone just explain this to me though. Why are so many people moaning about this, yet grumblingly STILL downloading the game, and the addons?

    What's the matter with you? Don't you have any self control?

    Peej

  • Tyronne #102 5 years ago

    Milk them milk them milk them !!!!

  • Agent_Llama #103 5 years ago

    Not sure what it is about Lumines, but it doesn't quite click for me. Not like Meteos. Glad I didn't bother forking out for it - plus its only £15 for the PSP.
    Edited by 1 at 19/10/06 @ 17:31

  • paulust2002 #104 5 years ago

    Come on microfolk? This is adding up to be expensive. Fuck Kylie, Just want lumines with tunes that have a pulse and don't get old. Bring rez too please.

    Really contemplating a PS3 after the cost of M S Marketplaces charges showing their true colours. Overpriced as hell.

    Did anyone notice with oblivion. some dungeon downloads are under 1 meg, that means the door is hidden and you're paying to unlock it.

    fuck em

  • Hughes. #105 5 years ago

    I don't wish to sound defeatist, but in a world where Jamster makes wheelbarrows of money from kids downloading crap to their phones, it seems likely that we're stuck with this scenario.

    If people like EG are prepared to tell us exactly what's on offer before we hit the "download" button (the "Full Game" description this carried seems like we can't rely on the product description itself) then it's probably best to do a little research into what we'll actually get.

    We'll just all have to be a bit careful about our impulse buys.

    Still, at least there aren't any Crazy Frog adverts on TV these days!

    I shouldn't have said that, should I?

    Shit!

  • Rev.StuartCampbell #106 5 years ago

    "But if they released the game the way you want it... It would cost £30+ not £10. We knows this because that's how much the game costs on PSP for all the content included."

    That argument's complete balls, though. PSP games cost £30 because £15 goes straight to the retailer, plus the thing has to be physically manufactured onto a weird proprietory format, which must cost anywhere from £2-£5 per unit. So the actual GAME on PSP was selling for barely a tenner brand new, never mind the fact that it's way less than that now.

    There's absolutely no excuse for the pricing of Lumines Live - the game's a port, it's already been developed, so next to no costs there. (It's a flipping 2D puzzler anyway.) There's no retailer margin, no physical manufacturing costs, no stock issues, almost no overheads of any kind. Everything that publishers use to excuse the high price of videogames isn't true about Lumines, yet to get the whole thing still costs almost the same as a full-price game on a DVD in a shop, with no chance of trading it in later to reduce the cost, no retail competition to drive the price down, and little to no chance of it being discounted after a month or two either.

    It's a GIGANTIC RIP-OFF and anyone who falls for it - or worse, makes some pathetic turkey-voting-for-Christmas justification for it - is a complete sucker who deserves to be tarred and feathered.
    Edited by 1 at 22/10/06 @ 01:25

  • oerhoert #107 5 years ago

    Alternatively, he/she'd just like some Lumines on his/her 360.

  • haowan #108 5 years ago

    That and being a sucker are not mutually exclusive states.

  • SomaticSense #109 5 years ago

    Bullshit excuse.

    "We have to include everything in 50MB." So why not offer the rest free?

    "We want people to look at Lumines and, depending on the artist, or the season, or the music, we want to give them different reasons to consider buying the game" Excuse me, but why not include all the artists and music in the game anyway. People can still choose for fucks sake, but more importantly, they'll also feel they got value for money. Something this Mizuguchi bloke clearly doesn't understand. Besides people aren't complaining about certain artists not being in the game, they are complaining about certain modes that were adveristed as being in the package and should've been there BEING LEFT OUT FOR THE SAKE OF RAKING IN MORE CASH!!!

    Proof that there still is no disguising pure greed, no matter what bollocks you come up with.