Driver dev defends Ubi DRM, online pass

By Robert Purchese Published 1 September, 2011

PC piracy "utterly unbelievable".

Ubisoft has "every right" to use DRM to protect PC games from "utterly unbelievable" levels of piracy, Driver: San Francisco developer Ubisoft Reflections told Eurogamer.

"You have to do something," studio founder Martin Edmonson declared.

"It's just, simply, PC piracy is at the most incredible rates. This game cost a huge amount of money to develop, and it has to be, quite rightly - quite morally correctly - protected.

"If there was very little trouble with piracy then we wouldn't need it."

Driver: San Francisco came under fire for particularly stringent DRM that required gamers to be online all of the time. Ubisoft later tweaked this so an online sign-in was required once, at game launch; Driver: San Francisco can then be played offline.

The PC version of Driver: San Francisco was developed outside of Ubisoft Reflections. Edmonson told Eurogamer that he had no say whether DRM was used - publisher Ubisoft made that call.

"The publisher has every right to protect their investment."

Martin Edmonson, founder, Ubisoft Reflections

"DRM is not a decision taken by us as a developer at all," he explained. "It's a purely a publisher decision. The publisher has every right to protect their investment.

"It's difficult to get away from the fact that as a developer, as somebody who puts their blood, sweat and tears into this thing... And from the publisher's point of view, which invests tens and tens and tens of millions into a product - by the time you've got marketing, a hundred million - that piracy on the PC is utterly unbelievable," Edmonson elaborated.

Whether Driver: San Francisco would use Ubisoft's second-hand sales deterrent Uplay Passport was also a decision out of Edmonson's hands. "Yes it was, yeah [a Ubisoft decision]," he remarked.

The Uplay Passport, like EA's Online Pass, manifests as a free code within a first-hand Driver: San Francisco game box. Redeem this online to unlock Driver: San Francisco's 11 multiplayer modes and a Film Director mode.

If you buy the game second-hand with a missing or previously redeemed Uplay Passport code, then you'll need to pay extra for that content. On PC and PS3 the charge is £8, on Xbox 360 the charge is £6.80 (due to Microsoft Point conversion rates).

"[Uplay Passport (online pass) is] one of those things that we just have to get used to - it's going to happen."

Martin Edmonson

"If people don't buy the game when it first comes out and wait and pay for rental or for second-hand usage, then the publisher sees absolutely nothing of that," Edmonson said.

"I see how much work, effort, money and risk goes into the creation of these games. I think it's entirely right that everybody who's involved - the people who take the risk - should have a reasonable chance at a financial recouping from that.

"If you want these games to be produced at the level they're being produced at, the cost they're being produced at... Everyone wants something for nothing, don't they? They're very, very expensive and high risk - huge risk, actually."

"It's one of those things that we just have to get used to," he added, "it's going to happen."

Driver: San Francisco launches this Friday on PS3 and Xbox 360. The game has taken a team of up to 220 people four-to-five years to build. Driver: San Francisco has a formidable bespoke engine that copes with a rare 60 frames-per-second. It also has a refreshingly innovative, if initially beguiling, Shift mechanic.

Long gone are the days of the dreadful Driver 3.

"In Reflection's best work since the Driver series began," wrote Martin Robinson in Eurogamer's Driver: San Francisco review, "it's managed to tame the ridiculous and conjure something quite sublime."

Picture of Robert.

About Robert Purchese

Bertie is Eurogamer's Senior Staff Writer. When he's not hunting down news stories he's often found playing with his kids or gabbling about fantasy games and strange online worlds.

Read more articles from Robert by visiting the Robert Purchese archive page.

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Comments (179) Latest comment 6 months ago

Comments threads automatically close after 30 days, but please feel free to continue chatting on the forum!

  • merseymal #1 6 months ago

    Except it doesn't stop the pirates from pirating the bloody games. All it does is punish people who cough up the cash for them.

  • Eraysor #2 6 months ago

    Crazy DRM and an online pass are two great reasons not to buy this game for me. They won't see a penny until that DRM is gone. They still don't have a clue that stricter DRM simply encourages piracy!

  • LHH #3 6 months ago

    I wouldn't mind if my homehub wouldn't disconnect randomly or Ubi's servers were 100% on all the time.
    Otherwise I support drm

  • ZizouFC #4 6 months ago

    There must be a better way to do it.

  • Khosrau #5 6 months ago

    I do not endorse piracy in any way, but DRM clearly doesn't help. So why bother?

  • metalangel #6 6 months ago

    They don't care that their legitimate customers are inconvenienced far, far, FAR more than the pirates they're unsuccessfully trying to stop.

    Hell, PC Gamer has taken to marking down the games because of Ubisoft's DRM. The HAWX 2 review only covered the first half of the game because the verification servers went down and didn't come back up before their deadline. Splinter Cell actually stopped the reviewer mid-punch with a 'connection to DRM server lost' message.

  • mamac123 #7 6 months ago

    use steamworks for all pc games then ubisoft!!!!!

  • arcam #8 6 months ago

    They spend so much energy thinking about pirates; they should try and think about their customers for once.

  • el_pollo_diablo #9 6 months ago

    "There must be a better way to do it."

    I totally agree with you but I think the sad fact is that there isn't currently another way they can fight back against this. I mean look at music downloads - they removed the DRM and dropped the prices, and yet still people steal, just because it's easy. So what are they supposed to do?

    Personally I think all games should start with a non skippable cutscene that shows the people who made it holding up pictures of their families!

    edit: My point was that these are real people making these games - if there was a way to make pirates actually, you know, regret stealing from people who are just like them then surely that would be an effective way to avoid all this DRM that punishes the wrong people.
    Edited by 1 at 01/09/11 @ 16:55

  • bf #10 6 months ago

    I wonder how much silly ranting devs influence the sales figures for a game...

  • Concrete #11 6 months ago

    The 'better way to do' it is simply not to bother with a PC SKU, as the meager sales don't cover the cost of the sales lost due to people pirating instead of buying a console version. You can't have it both ways I'm afraid, so be gratefull that they even bothered to release a PC version.

    BRING ON THE NEGS!!!1 (But you know its true :p )

  • octo #12 6 months ago

    So it was out of your hands, but you would have done it anyway? That's an odd argument. Wring your hands of any responsibility whilst also agreeing with the sentiment. If you believe in it just be honest. Publishers don't add code to games. Developers do. Publishers can ask you to put it in. They can cut you off if you refuse. But ultimately then everyone would be telling the truth.

    Piracy is rampant in every industry where content can be digitsed. DRM is unpopular because it makes legitimate customers work harder to do simple things.

  • TeeHee #13 6 months ago

    Ubi has been written off as a reliable publisher for me after the Dust debacle. I really can't see me or quite a few of my friends buying thier trash for a long time.

  • bobfish09 #14 6 months ago

    I think that even if piracy didn't exist, they still wouldn't sell enough PC copies to make a significant difference to their revenue from the game.

    Multi-platform games just don't sell that well on the PC, except for a few rare cases like Valve's games.

  • nbringer #15 6 months ago

    "It's one of those things that we just have to get used to," he added, "it's going to happen."
    Also buying this game is one of those things... it's NOT going to happen.

  • bad09 #16 6 months ago

    whatever, pirates are still pirating and customers are using cracks while others are not buying your games. so what good is the DRM doing exactly?

  • HL706 #17 6 months ago

    I've carefully considered your argument. I'd now like to shoot it to pieces with The Witcher 2.

  • SuperFanBoy #18 6 months ago

    @ Concrete: "The 'better way to do' it is simply not to bother with a PC SKU, as the meager sales don't cover the cost of the sales lost due to people pirating instead of buying a console version".

    I think that, if that were really the case, the Ubi people would simply not bother with a PC version. It's much more logical to assume that profits from the PC version outweigh the perceived cost from piracy, so they keep making them.

  • Lord_BeeJee #19 6 months ago

    Dude it's pretty simple:
    -game gets cracked anyway
    -game gets released on torrents before official launch
    -downloaders don't notice a thing
    -we, the buyers get shafted with your limitations
    -me the buyer has stopped playing ubisoft games ages ago, keep your crippled crap.

    //edit: ubisoft should also check the console downloads, they are almost a big as pc downloads
    Edited by 1 at 01/09/11 @ 12:52

  • Eisenstein #20 6 months ago

    And yet the Witcher 2 sold a million copies despite being rather lenient in the whole DRM department. Maybe some people are willing to pay for good games?

  • login_name #21 6 months ago

    Fine, you still don't get a sale from me. There's one lost sale you normally would have gained (and this is for every single game you produce). I wonder how many other sales you have lost due to the shitty treatment of your legit customers. Sad thing is, the pirates are playing without issue. Bellends.

  • thesombrerokid #22 6 months ago

    Ubisoft think the best way to stop someone who's trying to kill you is to kill yourself.

  • thesombrerokid #23 6 months ago

    Deus Ex on the PC wasn't pirated till over a week after the 360 & PS3, it's a solved problem regardless.

  • jimdove76 #24 6 months ago

    if the DRM they used actually stopped piracy then fine, but it dont, and it harms paying customers, is a pity since the assassins creed series are very good games indeed. I have pre ordered revelations but i know ill be FORCED to get the cracked exe to play it properly due to the always on DRM nonsense messing up my gametime.

  • ecureuil #25 6 months ago

    Except it doesn't stop the pirates from pirating the bloody games. All it does is punish people who cough up the cash for them.

    It's "utterly unbelieveable" that he doesn't get this.

    We really need to start voting with our wallets. Personally I haven't bought a boxed Ubi title for a good few years now, and I won't until they stop with this DRM nonsense.

  • Eraserhead #26 6 months ago

    More than a week before the release of Deus Ex HR, I could have, if I'd wanted, downloaded a retail copy of the game for my (hypothetically modded) Xbox, burned it to a disc and happily played it.

    Meanwhile, because the PC version uses Steamworks apparently there was no dodgy copy available before release day. I'm not even sure if there is one now, I haven't looked.

    So publishers continually banging on about PC piracy while simply ignoring console piracy - almost with an attitude of "Oh well, it happens, and not many people do it" - seems a bit rich to say the least.

  • dsmx #27 6 months ago

    Meanwhile on the pirate bay the first version up is for the xbox 360

  • thesombrerokid #28 6 months ago

    tens and tens and tens and tens and tens and tens and tens and tens, what so tens then?

  • Sabreman64 #29 6 months ago

    If second-hand games are so bad for the games industry then why not just ban the buying and selling of second-hand games?

  • Brutal_Zen #30 6 months ago

    In total agreement with the article.

    When my PC starts up it establishes and i-net connection automatically and when I shut my comp down it terminates my i-net connection automatically. Personally, I don't give a toss about those DRMs and stuff. Go ahead and verify my bought copy of a PC game. If it helps to cut down piracy (even a little). Be my guest.

  • Shikasama #31 6 months ago

    Tell it to CD Projekt

  • [TR] #32 6 months ago

    "The publisher has every right to protect their investment."

    Of course they do! No one says otherwise.
    But they invested on something to sell to people, not something that they need to protect like a painting at a museum for no one to touch.

    And let's face it, a few months down the road they don't give a crap about 80-90% of the games they released.
    Hell, sometimes they don't even patch PC games around release dates, let alone after a while.
    And that has a direct impact on the perceived value of the customer's investment on a game.
    What's that? Oh you didn't know we viewed our purchases as investments as well? It's just that from that viewpoint we're happier with products that don't annoy us constantly.

  • deadstoned #33 6 months ago

    Sorry Ubisoft, there are a lot of REAL PC customers out here. We clearly dont want more shitty DRM, we'd prefer something that actually benefits PC Gamers like Steam.

    BTW do not turn your UBI thing into a Steam competitor you will lose. Big style!

  • Ryze #34 6 months ago

    You're deterring people from buying your game, you idiots.

    But go ahead - yes you have a right to do as you please with your own software, but don't expect me to pay for that nonsense on the PC.

  • Rack #35 6 months ago

    They're in their rights to riddle it with ineffectual DRM and I'm in my rights to just not buy it.

    Whether they're in their right mind to hurt themselves and their customers and their ex-customers to mildly inconvenience pirates is a whole other matter.

  • [TR] #36 6 months ago

    @Brutal_Zen

    I know what you mean, but it's not a causal relation.
    It would be if you having to identify your game would DIRECTLY cut piracy, but it doesn't work like that.
    These things don't prevent cracks, so pirated versions will exist anyway. Meanwhile you're the one left with the burden of proving your copy is legitimate every time you launch the game.
    I understand you not being upset with that, I do. But think how you'd feel if every purchase you made was treated like that.

  • kangarootoo #37 6 months ago

    A couple of thoughts.

    1. We know that DRM doesn't stop all pirates playing games, but does it stop SOME pirates? As always people are keen to deal only in absolutes, but I am wondering if whilst not ending piracy, DRM might reduce it? Discuss.



    2. People are using terms like "annoy us constantly", but is that really what is happening. I feart that people are overstating the case, simply as a way of objecting to something they don't like.

    Personally, I don't like online-required DRM. Not a bit. But does that dislike drive me to fabricate stories of hugely annoying internet connections? Browsing the internet requires you to be online all the time, as does playing online. Do people that browse the internet or play online find the experience constantly annoying? If not, one has to ask "what is wrong with this picture"?



    Regardless of where we are with DRM in this modern time, the blame for it lies squarely at the feet of pirates and nobody else. Maybe DRM is a loosing battle, and maybe it only annoys legit customers, and maybe it is killing PC gaming (it isn't). But if it wasn't for pirates nicking stuff, we wouldn't even be having this conversation (and none of us would know what DRM even stands for).

  • jablonski #38 6 months ago

    All I see, in their attitude to DRM and second hand sales, is a big 'fuck you' to the honest consumer.

    In 2011, it's all about ease-of-use and instant gratification.
    If your shitty DRM and 2nd hand penalties get in the average gamer's way, he'll take the easy option. Piracy

  • M4RV #39 6 months ago

    And console piracy remains a taboo... No one cares to mention how games are leaked to consoles first and to PC's later, some times two to three weeks after(!) the consoles counterpart.

    While these guys are at it, blame the world's problems on PC piracy as well; I'm sure that won't be too hard.

  • AceGrace #40 6 months ago

    I pretty much lost all respect for Reflections after the bug ridden Driver 3.

  • Seafort #41 6 months ago

    @spacedelete "what have the pc elitists got to say about this? funny how they claim console gaming is holding pc gaming back but in truth its pc gamers holding pc gaming back because they don't even pay for their games."

    Oh console gaming is holding pc gaming back but that's another story...

    I see every week xbox360 games being cracked and torrented way before the official release date so don't bring the whole "piracy is only on pc" crap. You know what the last game being pirated was for xbox360? Yes thats right it was Driver San Francisco.

    I have over 300+ games on steam now so i guess i'm a minority in your holier than thou console world.

    ATM i buy limited AAA games and many more indie games as they haven't succumbed to the bullshit marketing techniques that large developers spew out of their mouths just to make their games sound unique and interesting when in actual fact their game is just a clone of the last bestselling game.

    Witcher 2 is a good example of a good game selling well without the draconian DRM. It sold well as it only cost $10 million to make unlike these $100 million+ console games which are huge risk taking ventures from publishers with more money than sense.

  • TipTop #42 6 months ago

    +1 Purchase. I'm going to buy it just because it has DRM. Some people here need to be this passionate about the more important things in life.

  • Sunjammer #43 6 months ago

    Wow they just don't get it do they.

  • sega #44 6 months ago

    It must just encourage piracy because, as a person who is totally against it, I have found I have gone from pirating nothing at all to a couple of titles a year.

    In some cases I have bought the game AND pirated it just so I can play when I don't have a connection. It's just so inconvenient but, if this really is the way things are going, I'm going to vote with my wallet and stop paying for DRM heavy titles entirely. I'm sure others will do the same. I want to see an end to piracy too but find a way that doesn't make it the more attractive option. Maybe find a way to offer legitimate customers something extra rather than taking something away.

  • Flipper79 #45 6 months ago

    Fine, go down the moral route, but if I purchase a game that requires connection to a server, the seller has a moral responsibility to make sure I have access whenever I want it. If that server goes down and I'm not able to play the game I purchased then THEY ARE STEALING FROM ME!!!

  • CaptainKid #46 6 months ago

    I don't understand how DRM stops piracy.
    I bet a few weeks after the PC release the game will already be available as torrent.

    I do understand how DRM makes more people pirate the game instead..

  • kangarootoo #47 6 months ago

    "is a big 'fuck you' to the honest consumer."

    followed by...

    "If your shitty DRM and 2nd hand penalties get in the average gamer's way, he'll take the easy option. Piracy"

    As is so frequently pointed out on these pages, the 2nd hand purchaser isn't a customer of the publisher, honest or otherwise. If the publisher gets no money from the sale, I'm not sure it matters to them whether you pirate the thing or buy it on ebay.

  • SleazyDragon #48 6 months ago

    At home I use a console for gaming, but I take a laptop with me when I'm on vacation. For me having a game is the equivalent of a buying a holiday novel. If i go out of my country and take my laptop with Driver: San Francisco with me, the game is still unplayable.

    I don't and never would pirate a game, so now I'm stuck with 6 Gig's of crap on my laptop that I'm unable to use. That is unless I get a hacked version. Way to go ubisoft.

  • mkreku #49 6 months ago

    Trust your customers. No DRM in the world is going to turn a pirate into a buyer, but there are people willing to pay for your products. Treat the paying customer well, ignore the pirates and profit.

    Use the carrot instead of the whip, it's the only way.

  • kangarootoo #50 6 months ago

    "but I am wondering if whilst not ending piracy, DRM might reduce it? Discuss."

    Or if discussion is a mental struggle for you, press the neg button.

  • arcam #51 6 months ago

    @kangarootoo

    1. It doesn't stop any torrents or people downloading games, but what it does stop is people borrowing or copying the game from friends. How much of an issue that is for Ubisoft, and whether it's worth all the bad will they are getting, is up for debate.

    2. When you are browsing the web or playing online and your internet craps out - yes it is annoying, but bearable because we understand those things obviously don't work without an internet connection. If you're playing Driver, it's absolutely infuriating because it's not the lack of internet that is stopping you playing your game, it's decisions made by executives at Ubisoft.

  • Kaonazhie #52 6 months ago

    DRM/always-online style measures do naught but punish the paying customer. Pirates still end up getting this stuff for free, and often weeks before official launch.

    Is that so hard to understand?

  • Makeem95 #53 6 months ago

    Vote with your wallet and don't but Ubisoft games.
    It'll take a while cause they're thick as pig shit, but someday the message will get through.

  • Flipper79 #54 6 months ago

    "If people don't buy the game when it first comes out and wait and pay for RENTAL or for second-hand usage, then the publisher sees absolutely nothing of that,"

    Well if Ubisoft aren't getting anything for allowing their games to be rented it's no wonder we see such incompetance in things like their DRM.

  • CaptainKid #55 6 months ago

    @mkreku

    Well said.
    I'm a pirate (aarrg) and the only reason I would BUY a game if it would give me substantial benefits to buy the game instead. Right now, it's the opposite! As a pirate I have no DRM, No Windows Live or EA store bullshit, all pre-order bonuses, no DVD, easy install, etc.

    And achievements alone (on Steam or Windows Live) are not a great enough benefit.

    I don't see how they could implement benefits in a single player game though, multiplayer yes, but single player?

  • pr0ev0lution #56 6 months ago

    the sooner they realise this always online drm actually pushes people to either not buy the game or pirate it so they can have an offline cracked copy the better. if they want to stop the piracy they need to provide more incentives for people to actually purchase the game through promotions. i mean lets face it i can't be the only one who has preordered a game through steam i was going to wait for because they say gave a pack of weapons for team fortress 2 as a preorder bonus.

    of course thats just pc stuff console wise i have no problem with online pass. any game i play online i get new anyway so that doesn't really bother me and thats just publishers protecting there product anyway since they get no cash from preowned sales.

  • RevanNL #57 6 months ago

    And the best way to combat pirates is of course putting DRM in your products, so that the few paying consumers you have left will get a less user friendly experience then the pirates do.

  • kangarootoo #58 6 months ago

    @arcam

    Thankyou. And I agree with all your points, I just want people to say them out loud :)



    On the wider subject of "it doesn't work, why don't you understand, stop doing this". I genuinely wonder why so many publishers are using this kind of DRM. They are big companies, with a history of making money by selling stuff. We on the other hand have no way of proving our "its obvious, you idiots" retorts by demonstrating increased profits. So what do they know that we don't? Or are they really all as bonkers as we suggest?....



    I should add that I used to subscribe heavily to the "they are good at this stuff, so if it seems wrong to us its probably because we don't understand" school of thought, but I am finding that the longer I live the more I lean toward the "loads of people in business don't really know what they are doing, and the only reason they survive is because their competitors are the same" alternative :)

  • kangarootoo #59 6 months ago

    Publishers DO get a cut from rental services (except when the disc says NOT FOR RENTAL on boot, as I have occasionally seen from LoveFilm).

  • Spekingur #60 6 months ago

    Oh, bring back the old days of the CD Key input.

  • DisneyJon #61 6 months ago

    The pirated version works offline for free.

    The retail doesn't.

    The above is why the pc section of the industry is in trouble, along with shit QA testing.

  • jarek98 #62 6 months ago

    Stop whining - you don't like DRM - don't play games with it. It is that simple. But do not justify piracy (i.e. theft) with it. A publisher has every right to do everything he wants with its property. If I want to sell my own game for $1000 per disk, it is nobody's business but mine... You don't like it - you don't buy it - but you don't steal just because it is easy to do so... The moment DRM will cause the decrease of sales instead of increasing it, publishers will stop using it.
    Edited by 1 at 01/09/11 @ 13:43

  • tankboi #63 6 months ago

    Just because 100 people pirate a game, it does not mean that 100 sales have been lost.

    People pirate like a hobby. If they can't pirate a game then they will not necessarily go buy it.

    This argument is getting boring, as is DRM and Ubisoft's militant application of it. I got a refund on From Dust. Learn your lesson Ubisoft. DRM does not stop piracy, it stops people giving you their money.

  • DwarfyP #64 6 months ago

    @mamac123
    STEAM games have Valve's own DRM on them and has been hacked long ago so why would they add Steamworks unless they were targeting the STEAM market?

  • oceanclub #65 6 months ago

    *cough*

    [link url=http://www.eurogamer.net/a rticles/2011-08-30-portal-2-pc-outperformed-console-versions
    ]http://ww w.eurogamer.net/articles/2011-0...[/link]

    Yes, PC games are pirated, and that sucks. But the response is to come up with a system that offers _benefits_ to those who purchase, not offers them a lesser service than those who've pirated. Steam is one example of a system which offers both a level of DRM _and_ benefits to the consumer.

    P.

  • Khosrau #66 6 months ago

    # 47 CaptainKid

    It's just sad, because the (PC) gamer loses either way:

    When enough people buy games with DRM, Ubisoft (and others) will keep putting DRM in games, restricting and annoying the legitimate gamer more and more.

    When people vote with their wallet, they'll probably stop porting games to PC in the end.

    So, there is no victory for us here. Luckily Ubisoft games tend to be crap these days, so it's not very hard boycotting them.


    Publishers need to realise games don't need to be big budget to be good. It would really help if they made more lower budget games and sell them at a lower price (around 20-30 quid). They should focus more on gameplay, story and originality. I for one would have a lot more day one purchases that way and it's less risky for the dev/publisher too.

    And last but not least, it would make the big budget games stand out more.

  • kangarootoo #67 6 months ago

    @jarek98

    An overdeveloped sense of entitlement is a blight upon the modern age. You are quite right of course. The idea that if you don't like the product being offerred, stealing it is a perfectly reasonable alternative, does seem bizarrely widespread.

  • arcam #68 6 months ago

    @kangarootoo

    I think the fact that some publishers use very strict DRM, while others use no DRM at all, show that no one knows for sure what works and what doesn't, and that the whole thing is still very much a work in progress.

    We could say the same things when music used to be heavily locked down with DRM - why would the record companies do it/insist on it if it didn't work? However, a few years down the road and pretty much all labels have realised that DRM is not a help but a hindrance to increasing their online sales.

    An anecdotal way to test this would be to see if Ubi's PC sales have increased since they started using this. I don't know any way to find that out.

  • HL706 #69 6 months ago

    @kangarootoo

    DRM should only affect pirates but it doesn't - it's only ever noticed by the paying customer. DRM in itself is not evil, but the current implementation from most publishers is exceptionally flawed.

    I personally have no issue with Steamworks. It's effective, I don't notice it and have never complained about it. By all means protect the game from piracy, but not at the expense of the paying customers experience!

  • syra #70 6 months ago

    Day 1 pirate?

  • arcam #71 6 months ago

    "You have to do something," studio founder Martin Edmonson declared.

    Honestly, I feel like this nicely illustrates the reasoning behind much of Ubiosoft's actions. There is huge piracy on the PC, that can't be denied,and Ubi will have shareholders asking them awkward questions about all those people playing for free. What are they supposed to say - "there's nothing we can do"? As long as they are doing something, they can say they are addressing, and not ignoring, the problem.

  • cheeky_pete #72 6 months ago

    I think Gabe Newell said it best when talking about piracy he said that you have to offer a way to buy that is simpiler and with more benefits than pirating. I buy games on steam in about 3 clicks and know I will be able to play most of them offline if my net goes down which it frequently does.

    I feel as a customer that Ubisoft thinks I am stealing all the time. I'll admit due to lack of cash I have pirated in the past but for me it just isn't the same without the game in my Steam list. Sadly with Ubisofts strategy I would feel the same way. I would constantly feel that I could be disconnected any second and lose my game save. Seriously NO! I will not have that.

    Ubi if you want to fix your PC gaming here is an idea.

    1. Take your DRM and shove it up your arse. Use Steam or ye oldé CD keys and leave it be
    2. Bonuses for buying it tiny bits of DLC and if using Steam give achievements, cloud support and friends options.
    3. Pirates don't face any hurdles with your game make anything you do for the honest customer easier than that.
    4. Make decent ports. You're recent out put has been a bunch of poorly ported bug ridden crap

    Do those things and you might be able to salvage yourself on the PC otherwise get the hell out of the way because there's many publishers and more developers who dont treat us as criminals and they are the ones earning big bucks. What good will your precious DRM be when there isn't anything left to protect?

  • Spekingur #73 6 months ago

    Torrenting/pirating isn't exactly the same as stealing - that is, something that is actually taken meaning certain (and complete) loss of item for the one being stolen from.
    In many countries downloading something does not mean that you are breaking the laws. It is mostly to do with copyright infringement - that is the right to copy and/or distribute. Pirating is mostly to do with distribution and the laws involving it.
    Where I live, copyright is translated to 'laws concerning the right of the author'. According to what copyright is in english, these are not the same - meaning, copyright can be owned by someone else than the author.

    Laws about all of above can be very diffirent from country to country - so what is illegal in the UK might not be illegal, or as illegal, in Sweden (have no idea if that is the case though).
    Edited by 1 at 01/09/11 @ 14:12

  • fabiosooner #74 6 months ago

    #11
    You are totally right. Congratulations on being one of the few with the courage to say what needs to be said. I've always maintained that if I were to become a game developer right now I would never bother with the PC market - and I've played PC games for almost twenty years at this point. Between piracy, customers who feel entitled to everything and rampant nitpicking (it feels like it's impossible to satisfy them clickers), it's just too much of a hassle dealing with the PC market.

    BRING DOWN THE NEGS!

  • Gao #75 6 months ago

    I take it all the people saying they havn't bought an ubisoft game are pirating them then? :)

  • mjhoward #76 6 months ago

    Making life more difficult for legitimate customers because of a bunch of people who were never going to buy your game anyway is a terrible way to go. There's no good justification for it.

    I understand Online Passes to some extent, but I believe they should be rewarding people for buying new with additional content. Not hiding existing parts of the game behind a registration code.

  • Seoh #77 6 months ago

    It was my understanding that levels of piracy on the PC were going down, and that it wasn't as big an issue as before (certainly western hemisphere).

    A bit stuck now if i should get HOMM6 as its another ubi game with persistent on-line requirements

  • nagi #78 6 months ago

    It is also "utterly unbelievable" that the 360 version of the new driver game has already been out on torrent sites for DAYS! Oh wait, only if you've been living under a frikkin' ROCK for the past 3 or so years. So much for PC piracy!

  • Valland #79 6 months ago

    If they knew what they were talking about, they would know that more DRM gives additional incentives to pirate.
    DRM does not work, never has, probably never will.

  • arcam #80 6 months ago

    @Seoh

    I know people will hate my answer but personally I would buy it if it doesn't include the always-online DRM, and pirate it if it does.

    I know, I know, but fuck it. They have no respect for me, I have none for them. Buy buying it I would feel worse about what I'm doing to fellow gamers than I would about what I'm doing to Ubisoft by not paying.

  • ronorra #81 6 months ago

    "Use the carrot instead of the whip, it's the only way."

    Quoted for undeniably truth.

  • PearOfAnguish #82 6 months ago

    Those of you saying that PC games don't sell should approach publishers and developers to offer your services as a consultant, because clearly you know better than them. Apparently they've been wasting time making PC games for decades without getting any money for it, I'm sure they'll be glad to hear your viewpoints, which are no doubt backed up by solid figures and years of experience.

    There are ways of incorporating DRM without making it intrusive. Accept that at best the DRM will prevent casual copying and that games will be cracked, and at the very least you don't have it impact the player. Have it benefit those who pay for the game, like with Steam and GfWL achievements (carrot not whip, as above).
    Edited by 1 at 01/09/11 @ 14:28

  • George-Roper #83 6 months ago

    @kangarootoo

    An overdeveloped sense of entitlement is a blight upon the modern age. You are quite right of course. The idea that if you don't like the product being offerred, stealing it is a perfectly reasonable alternative, does seem bizarrely widespread.

    But that's not entirely true, is it? The 'product' in question isn't the DRM, its the game. If someone didn't like the game, why waste any time/effort/bandwidth to steal it? The two are not one and the same. The former is forced onto the latter in some bizarre attempt to stop piracy that clearly does not work. At best it delays day one piracy and to be honest, I think that's exactly what Ubisofts plan with From Dust was. All they ended doing though was courting huge controversy over that DRM, resulting in yet more lost faith in their PC market and topped off with refunds, so its not even like they were able to retain all the sales. Full fat fail.

    I'm committed to not buying any DRM'd Ubisoft games until the prices have fallen through the floor. The most recent being Settlers 7 for way, way below the release cost. I had Settlers 7, AC and From Dust all lined up for day one, until the DRM was made known. Given the EG review on Driver, I was going to get that. Not anymore. I'm interested in Far Cry 3 but with how things are going, that too looks like it will be DRM'd, so no sale. The only people losing out here are Ubisoft, because of their attitude that every PC gamer is a potential criminal, thus everyone must be tarred with the same brush.

    It's just not on and it's actually very satisfying to see similar if not flat out identical thoughts as my own, on these kinds of articles.

  • dingo75 #84 6 months ago

    [xxx] New upload in /games/Xbox360 Driver.San.Francisco.JTAG.XBOX360-COMPLEX [xxx]

    Fuck off Ubi

    Edit:
    My point is that it's already out on consoles.
    I don't even own a Xbox360 by the way.
    Edited by 1 at 01/09/11 @ 14:51

  • bad09 #85 6 months ago

    "Stop whining - you don't like DRM - don't play games with it. It is that simple"

    No it's not that simple unfortunately. See many of us WANT TO BUY THEIR PRODUCTS just not with this anti-consumer stuff that only encourages and promotes piracy.

    If we stopped whining these foolish and consumer agressive companies like Ubi will lose our custom for good. If we stopped whining at Capcom would they have dropped their attempt at killing sales on SSF4AE? Customers and potential customer need to "whine" MORE not less.

  • kangarootoo #86 6 months ago

    @Spekingur

    Oh, there is always one in every piracy related thread.

    "that is, something that is actually taken meaning certain (and complete) loss of item for the one being stolen from."

    Untrue. Stealing is the act of taking without permission. Piracy is stealing. What you are describing is theft, which is taming of property with the intention of depriving the owner of it (which clearly isn't the result of illegal software duplication). It does rather make a (pretty minor) mockery of FACT, who have chosen to use the word Theft in their title, when piracy is not actually theft. Maybe someone pirated their dictionary...

    Regardless, out-pedanting you is not my aim. The real aim is to ask "what does it matter what we call it?" :)



    @George-Roper

    I'm not sure the distinction is relevant is it? I might not like BMW's finance plan, does that mean I can steal the car? I might not like the delivery times imposed by Amazon, does that make pinching a book justifiable? The package is what is on offer, whether that package is the game the DRM and a cuddly toy. Don't like the package, don't buy it, full stop. Selectively pinching parts of it is not justified simply by the fact that you didn't nick the bit you didn't like :)

  • bad09 #87 6 months ago

    "what does it matter what we call it?"

    Well in terms of the LAW it matters quite a bit ;)

    In the UK at least it's not theft as nothing was stolen. It's copyright infringement whether you agree with that or not there it is.

  • Grayvern #88 6 months ago

    It's all about perception that's why so many developers have insane views that Piracy is the reason their western fps didn't sell well on the PSP.

    In actual fact as Free to play and the better alternative shareware prove it's that exposure sells games and no one talks about the fact that piracy can help marketing as I'm sure the leaked preview build of DXHR did. Or that pre-owned trades can actually help drive new sales and also get people to browse game shelves.

    Also the whole people worked on it so you must pay is ludicrous, I kind of agree with the patronige sentiment, that maybe a third pay and we all of us get to see the end result, as in kickstarter or European medievil artists. What about those that pay for absolutely crap games where's the morality in that.

    To be clear I do pay this isn't justification for my own piracy, however it does not mean that I am satisfied when I have paid especially in the case of LA Noire.
    Edited by 3 at 01/09/11 @ 15:01

  • azix2 #89 6 months ago

    Didn't care about this game, but now I shall pirate it and not play it. Cry me a river

  • dsmx #90 6 months ago

    piracy =/= theft, if piracy was the same as theft it would be investigated by the police and if you were convicted it would carry a jail sentence.

    Strangely even after all the years of lobbying for harsher punishments from the media industry they haven't lobbied to make piracy actually equal theft in legal terms, so the sentence comes with jail time rather than a fine. Could it possibly be something to do with the fact that they couldn't extract any damages from the defendants and actually require proper proof from the police investigation to convict someone?

  • jetsetwillie #91 6 months ago

    @bad09

    it doesn't really matter what you call it. the fact is, if you download and play games you didn't pay for you are a parasite and are party of the problem and part of the reason we have DRM.

  • jetsetwillie #92 6 months ago

    the term Pirate should be replaced by Parasite. as thats exactly what a pirate is. playing there free games while the rest of us part with our hard earned cash for the games we play.

    Edited by 1 at 01/09/11 @ 14:57

  • bad09 #93 6 months ago

    @ jetsetwillie

    Well I agree with you there I just don't believe in painting something as something else, the law says it's not theft it's not theft you are not stealing you are copying. If you COPY a game and not pay then yeah you are a parasite, problem is now not everyone torrenting is a parasite, even some in the industry now except some of the piracy is actually CUSTOMERS getting around the anti-consumer...er sorry anti-piracy measures. Torrenting has become a very grey area now and the games industry itself is partly to blame for that.

  • bloodflowers #94 6 months ago

    Perhaps the culture of entitlement we seem to have slipped into simply doesn't support the big game model anymore on the PC. If it's not profitable due to piracy, simply don't make it.

  • kangarootoo #95 6 months ago

    @bad09

    Well the law already accounts for piracy as you say, so I guess my question should have been "what does it matter what else we call it". My point is that every piracy thread risks getting bogged in people arguing over whether piracy is stealing (it is) or theft (it isn't).

    Given the internet puts a dictionary within reach of all of us, I'm amazed such "yes it is, no it isn't" arguments persist. But more importantly, as I am alluding to, who cares whether it is stealing or theft. Its piracy, and that is what really matters, surely.

  • Grayvern #96 6 months ago

    I don't think it's a culture of entitlement I think it's more people believing that the things they pirate have no inherent value.
    Edited by 1 at 01/09/11 @ 15:23

  • kangarootoo #97 6 months ago

    @dsmx

    Piracy is sometimes investigated by the police. And it does sometimes result in prison sentences in some countries. Not that it matters, just being a pedant again :)

  • kangarootoo #98 6 months ago

    @Grayvern

    I'm not saying a sense of entitlement is why piracy exists. I'm saying it what accounts for people making statements like "if the DRM is shit, people have no choice but to pirate". That sort of statement cannot accept that simply not getting something is also one of the options.

  • arcam #99 6 months ago

    Whether something is justified or not is in the eye of the beholder (or the eye of the downloader in this case).

  • bad09 #100 6 months ago

    @ kangarootoo

    True it is piracy but even there it's a grey area in terms of "stealing"/Copyright infringement. I downloaded 2 isos recently through file sharing for Gamecube technically that's piracy yet I have the original games here with me (I was trying out Dolphin and found you need a Wii to use your own discs which I don't have until next year).

    I wasn't "stealing" yet I am a pirate for doing that. Piracy is a real grey area in reality and if you look at studies in the music industry many filesharing are actually customers who pay you money in the first place, that's why I think the policy people like Valve and nintendo have is the right way to go. You could never ever possibly calculate actual REAL lost sales from the actual freeloaders so why bother just get on with selling to and serving your customers.
    Edited by 1 at 01/09/11 @ 15:13

  • paketep #101 6 months ago

    If the publisher has every right to load the game with a DRM that is a burden to customers and does absolutely nothing against pirates, so be it. If the developer is such an idiot that defends that stupid decision, so be it.

    But when WE don't buy your game because we don't want to be treated like shit, don't go out there and cry "PIRACY!" when your game doesn't sell. It's your fault.

    PS.- Consoles have as much piracy as the PC by now, and I don't see you insulting your console customers. Idiots.

  • jimdove76 #102 6 months ago

    what turns pirates into buyers are GOOD games, its all the mindless console shit that keeps being churned out each year that causes people to resent paying for games. I myself dont mind paying for AC:Revelations only this time on PC instead of my PS3 as I want the best possible experience. AC2 and AC:B are works of art on the PC, amazing how much a stable framerate improves games, let alone the higher res and better textures etc...

    Witcher 2 is a prime example of how its done!

    dont UBI end up patching out their DRMs after a month or 2 anyway?

  • bad09 #103 6 months ago

    @ jimdove76

    "dont UBI end up patching out their DRMs after a month or 2 anyway? "

    No to saved on costs their end they change the constant connection to everytime you start your game, which is no different really. Not a single game they have infected has had it removed completely, one of their lip servive mods on their official site confirmed that even when the games go onto budget ranges the DRM will STILL be there.

  • Brutal_Zen #104 6 months ago

    @djclownshoes

    The first post only nailed the one thing that piracy stands for. Weak arguments. The whole 'buyers are the victims' routine is getting old, stale and is, quite frankly, not of this time.

    I read a post that someone (cant bother to look up his/her nick) uses gaming on his holiday trip as relaxation, but cannot play driver now because he/she has not got an i-net connection. Well, then don't play Driver on this 1/2/3/etc. week trip and play what ever else there is... If that is a strong argument against DRM. Well, I think DRM has won.

    Just cough up the money to pay for a game. If DRM helps preventing (a tiny bit of) piracy then by all means add DRM. I do not mind it at all.

  • Khosrau #105 6 months ago

    @ Arcam # 105 (edit: wait, post is gone?)

    Agreed. 1 pirated game does not equal 1 sale, far from it I think.

    What also really would help reducing piracy is lower prices for games, I think.

    Right now games tend to launch at 50 or 60 (euro), but will often be half the price in 2 months. I suspect it really kills the will to buy (most) games at launch for many people. At least for me. I can only spend the same 50 quid once, right? So I won't buy many games full price this way.

    Launch games cheaper and do not make the prices drop as fast, I'd say. I'm always amazed by the fact prices of movies and music seem to retain a high price all the time while game prices drop sometimes 90% in a year's time. Especially so since games do not become 'outdated' as fast as it used to be. A 5 year old game can still look and play great.

    Not that I complain as a customer, I just think it would be a better business strategy.
    Edited by 2 at 01/09/11 @ 15:37

  • SpaceMidget75 Verified Senior Software Developer, Minerva Computer Services #106 6 months ago

    You know what's really funny (read: sad)? That when sales drop because legit customers refuse to buy a game with restrictive DRM, they'll blame piracy for the extra loss of sales. I fucking guarantee it.

    You know what else? I can't WAIT for a really good game that is also unhackable to be launched on PC. Then we'll all stare in amazement at the sales being no different from the norm.


    If they want to reduce piracy they need to understand some things. Everyone has some money that they could potentially spend on games. That money is a finite amount for the individual and it's usually not that much (on average). Each person balances their williness to spend that money on games against lots of variables. Heres a few:

    The quality of the game.
    Their opinion of the publisher, developer, franchase.
    The ease and speed at which they can get the game.
    The ease at which the can play the game.
    ...and of course price.

    The more of the things you tick off from the above list, the more it becomes 'easier' to spend some of the cash on a game rather than have to find a proper torrent with seeds, verify its ok, unzip the rars, mount the iso, install the game, crack it and then when a patch comes out, try to find a cracked update. As a side point to this, if the total number of games that a pirate has downloaded exceed what he would have been able to afford then you can no longer cite the Financial Loss arguement and 'only' have the moral arguement left.

    You don't STOP piracy, you make it easier and better value to go with the real thing. There are lots of people now, who listen to music on Spotify rather than firing up some crappy P2P program and finding out you've waited 15 minutes to download a crap version of the song.

    There are also a lot of people that will download a game on Steam for £6 which is downloaded, installed for you and patched for you. You haven't convert all the pirates with that Steam game but I bet you converted some, and it will be the opposite to what happened with From Dust.

    I'm not giving any views on the rights or wrongs of piracy. I am simply suggesting how you reduce it.
    Edited by 1 at 01/09/11 @ 15:51

  • bad09 #107 6 months ago

    Just been talking to someone on their forums, apparenty Ubi servers were down again with no warning yesterday or today. Really, why the hell do people still buy games in this state and how on earth could anyone in their right mind be happy with it?

  • chrisjm #108 6 months ago

    "I mean look at music downloads - they removed the DRM and dropped the prices, and yet still people steal it, just because it's easy. So what are they supposed to do? "

    While this is true, sales have also increased massively.

  • arcam #109 6 months ago

    @Khosrau

    Sorry, I deleted it after reading it back to myself. While I stand by my point that the solution lies in increasing sales, not in cutting piracy, I realised my post trying to explain pirates' motivations was wrong as there are far too many people to be able to speak for them all. Everyone has their own reasons for pirating - I do not know them all so I deleted my post, because it might have given the impression that I thought I did.

  • KDR_11k #110 6 months ago

    If you just have to do "something" how about jumping off a cliff? After all, that's "something".

  • bad09 #111 6 months ago

    @ chrisjm



    Very true going DRM free did increase sales of digital music, sometimes I think the games industry forgets it's goal is not to stop pirates but actually sell games and increase sales. Somewhere down the line someone thought the two are the same but that's far from the truth, yet they still put so much energy into it. Look at Ubi, if they focused as much energy into providing good working products to customers as they do fighting pirates piracy wouldn't actually be that much of a problem for them.

  • jonc24 #112 6 months ago

    Where are all these 'legitimate" posters seeing the pirated 360 version "all over the place'? I suspect its on the torrent/filesharing sites they use to download their other forms of media like music and movies. Not games though of course, never games.....

  • bad09 #113 6 months ago

    @ jonc24

    Using filesharing sites doesn't actually mean you are a freeloader. Educate yourself a bit on the reality not the propoganda.

  • geox30 #114 6 months ago

    Look how well The Witcher 2 sold you dummies.Good games sell good and there is no DRM that can stop pirating.You punish yourself by doing this,no sale for me.

  • Concrete #115 6 months ago

    @bad09

    Common mate, you aren't fooling anyone ;) About 0.001% of traffic on filesharing sites is legit.

  • jetsetwillie #116 6 months ago

    @geox30

    the witcher 2 still had plenty of people DLing it. you would think PC gamers would be making a point by not pirating games without DRM. but as we know pirates are not gamers. they are parasites.

  • bad09 #117 6 months ago

    @ Concrete

    Like I said studies in the music industry says a lot of it there is actual customers (I myself have downloaded albums because the CD I bought had all the wrong tracklisting and artwork when I ripped it with WMP), and some in the games industry are excepting now that some of the downloading there is actual customers.

    Obviously if someone downloads Cowboys and Aliens while it's still in the cinema or the Deus Ex leak then yeah they're not a customer (although whose to say they won't buy it off the back of that download?) but you or I have no idea or proof as to what percentage of traffic is customers or freeloaders, that's why piracy is such a sticky problem with no real easy way to deal with it.
    Edited by 2 at 01/09/11 @ 16:46

  • 5h1nj1 #118 6 months ago

    Omg, I wish these idiotical statements would stop already.

  • jonc24 #119 6 months ago

    @ bad09
    Except that they don't advertise the pirated files on filesharing sites. They don't even have search functionality! The only place to see the file is available to download is if you Google that or are on a site that links to a filedharing one. I.E. if you are pirating something!!!!
    Not trying to start a fight mare but maybe you should educate yourself before trying to piously advise others.

  • DodgyPast #120 6 months ago

    When pirating gets you a usable product but the purchased one has limitations that prevent you enjoying it which option are you going to choose?

    This kind of DRM doesn't offer any advantages over the less intrusive forms since they all prevent casual copying, while being unable to prevent anyone who is prepared to look for a torrent or on usenet.

    If I felt it was a must buy title w/out the limitations I would be buying it, but due to the DRM I would pirate it and wouldn't purchase a copy to go with the pirate out of spite.

    As I don't feel it's a must buy, I'd probably have ended up picking it up on sale through Steam eventually, but instead won't.

    Ubisoft really have turned 'cutting off your nose to spite your face' into an artform.

  • bad09 #121 6 months ago

    @ jonc24

    ?

    All you need to do on ANY torrent site is type something and there it is. I myself look at evey single Ubi game to see how their anti-consumer DRM is utterly useless so I can highlight that to them in an informed way as I try to convince them to let me buy their games again. You are confusing searching (or even using) these site with freeloading I'm afraid. Like I said educate yourself on what filesharing does don't just listen to "file sharing is bad and stealing m'kay". While it obviously is a part of it there are other benefits than "stealing" on these sites.

  • arcam #122 6 months ago

    @jonc24

    People know the pirated version is all over the place because the pirated 360 version is always all over the place! Just like I don't need to go to Pirate Bay to know Rise of the Planet of the Apes, or the console version of Deus Ex is everywhere. And if anyone is curious, they can just go and look for themselves.

  • shadowdogg #123 6 months ago

    Publishers do see money from renting...

  • El_Armonista #124 6 months ago

    @jonc24

    "Except that they don't advertise the pirated files on filesharing sites. They don't even have search functionality!"

    I think you need to change which filesharing site you're using if it doesn't even let you search.

  • Mekanik #125 6 months ago

    I work on a boat which is thinking on getting a PC for gaming. Yippee i said. Then told them to not bother because it wont have a permanent internet connection, if any at all. This makes playing games with heavy DRM impossible.

    Yes there are games out there that can be played, but its going to be a pain in the arse to play anything if the (stupid) IT dept dont allow internet access. So if a PC is bought, it`ll be filled with pirated games purely because people will get pissed off with it soon enough. Oh well. I`ll stick with the consoles, and even then i cant play DLC i bought thats on my xbox HDD as i need to have an internet connection to play that stuff too.....

    DRM punishes customers, no one else. Someone might learn that one day.

  • jetsetwillie #126 6 months ago

    @Dodgypast

    hmmm sounds like your just using this as justification to carry on being a parasite on the games industry.

    well, it doesn't.

  • El_Armonista #127 6 months ago

    @jetsetwillie

    But what you forget is that @DodgyPast doesn't need to justify himself to anyone here.

  • arcam #128 6 months ago

    ^ He already said if it weren't for the DRM he would buy it. So he's not a parasite, he's a discerning consumer, and we need as many of those as we can get.

  • Spekingur #129 6 months ago

    @kangarootoo: Piracy is not an investigation intiated by the police. At least not here. Here some organization claiming to protect the interest of the authors initiate these investigations, getting court orders to search a person's house for incriminating evidence. They are allowed to be there when the police is searching, often standing around with a smirk on their faces. These guys are not protecting anything but their own arses. In addition to this this organization gets 4% of all sold empty DVDs, CDs, HDDs, etc - along with 1% of all equipment that might be used to read and/or write onto said things. They are basically trying to control the distribution model.
    The terms stealing and theft might have diffirent values in the law environment where you live - it might have (and very likely has) diffrent meaning elsewhere. There is no complete unified law about copyright infringement or piracy. Piracy can't be replaced with the word theft or stealing because it doesn't really fall under those categories. Piracy is it's own category (well, we already have piracy in legal terms, I guess it might have to be called digital piracy to distinct from the seafaring kind).
    Theft, to me at least, is the same as stealing. I mean, there is a reason why it's called Art Theft and not Art Steal - or Grand Theft and not Grand Steal. Those are law made terms.

  • XcrossD #130 6 months ago

    "Double the trouble, twice the fun"

  • Demiath #131 6 months ago

    In other news, Portal 2 sold better on PC than on consoles. As long as games can sell that well on PC, there's no excuse for draconian DRM methods regardless of how many times a certain game gets bittorrented by broke and bored teenagers who either couldn't or wouldn't buy it anyway. Piracy can easily kill off an indie developer, but the effect on major publishers is quite a bit more complex than that and will never be ascertained simply by counting the number of illegal downloads.
    Edited by 1 at 01/09/11 @ 17:37

  • synte #132 6 months ago

    Yea, and I have every right to complain and not buying the shit. Also this DRM does NOT help against piracy.

    Consumers should have rights to. Stop spyware.

  • icematt12 #133 6 months ago

    I wonder then, might some movies have bigger development costs than the multiple mentioned tens of millions? Yet they seem to cope fine with not restricting second time buyers and beyond. Maybe its something gaming will evolve out of, I hope anyway.

  • Lonewolf2002 #134 6 months ago

    @Concrete seeing as both the console versions have been available for illegal download for about 2-3 days now your point could not be more invalid.

  • Darth_Flibble #135 6 months ago

    "Publishers do see money from renting... "

    was going to put the same thing. Problem with people like Martin: 1) has no clue about renting but happy to run his mouth off 2) considers renting (or even borrowing games) as piracy!!!11111 (seen this type of comment on here)

  • Aradiel #136 6 months ago

    I saw something on Reddit explaining DRM, saying that it is not meant to stop proper pirates (i.e. those who would use a torrent) but little Jimmy who tries to copy the CD for his friend.

    The thing is, if that's all that they are trying to do, Steam would be good enough. There really is no need to resort to this kind of stuff.

  • Chufty #137 6 months ago

    Don't you guys see? It's not a question of how effective DRM is at stopping piracy. We all know that it is largely ineffective, although it does statistically reduce piracy rates as "piracy" is not limited to torrenting and the like.

    The DRM is there purely to satisfy investors and shareholders. These people make all your AAA games possible by stumping up millions of pounds of their own cash to keep hundreds of real people in a job for 3-5 years while the game is being made, before they see a single penny of return on that investment.

    They don't understand the nuances of internet piracy, how BitTorrent works or what a keygen is. They see piracy as a risk, and DRM as a way of mitigating that risk, and without DRM they simply will not take the risk. It doesn't matter that it's ineffectual.

    I know if I had a few million quid spare to invest in a game, I'd laugh in the face of a developer who came to me wanting to make a PC exclusive. And I'm a PC gaming elitist snob.

  • Lunaticorc #138 6 months ago

    jonc24 wrote "Where are all these 'legitimate" posters seeing the pirated 360 version "all over the place'? I suspect its on the torrent/filesharing sites they use to download their other forms of media like music and movies. Not games though of course, never games..... "

    I never pirate games but i admit to aquiring movies and TV shows via more shady means these days. But wait, lets examine why i do this before burning me on the stake.

    I use Steam to purchase majority of my games. It's a fast and convenient service that i really like. Is there a service like that available for movies and TV shows? Nope, not in my country. Restricting your digital store to only some countries and not servicing others is really dumb, but because it's done a lot, it's the pirates life for me. Yarr!

    I'd also like to point out i will neither buy or pirate Ubi games. I don't like people who put their crappy DRM on top of Steam's DRM and i can't figure out what this additional DRM is supposed to do exactly, besides being annoying.
    Edited by 3 at 01/09/11 @ 18:03

  • Machiavellian #139 6 months ago

    The problem with the current gamer is that their vision is narrow. UBI always on DRM is only the beginning. Yes, it can be cracked but pretty soon games will be shipped that do not work if you are not connected. Code within the game will be missing in a lot of key areas. The only way that code will be provided is if you are connected. It will be streamed to your system probably using a 256 bit encryption or better.

    The always on was the first move by one big publisher, now you have Blizzard who has followed suit. Before long it will be the standard and once that happen, you can believe what I describe above will be the least of the measures used.

    The problem that gamers have to face is that piracy has developed to a state on the PC where legit sales are eclipsed by torrent downloads. Publishers who want to publish on the PC are desperate. It's hard for developers or publishers to see the good guy when the outlaws outnumber them.

  • bad09 #140 6 months ago

    "The problem that gamers have to face is that piracy has developed to a state on the PC where legit sales are eclipsed by torrent downloads. Publishers who want to publish on the PC are desperate. It's hard for developers or publishers to see the good guy when the outlaws outnumber them. "

    Valve, EA (for the most part, they made a couple of mistakes along the way but orgin is actually lighter than Steam restrictions), CD Projekt, SEGA, Square Enix, Activision, Capcom, countless indies all say hello. Just because a handful of publishers are so blinded by torrent figures they want to break your legitimate game in bid to stop pirates doesn't mean everyone is. Thankfully, for now at least, there are still companies out there who think of the customer before the pirate.

  • IMD1_Pk #141 6 months ago

    Guys don't forget that online drm at least prevents pirates from playing online with us and with lan being abolished it means they need to buy it for the mp component

  • azic #142 6 months ago

    Idiots like concrete, make me laugh.Your fucking console is using yester year PC tech.. No PC, No ATI or NVIDIA.. no off the shelf GPU tech for your consoles = £899 for console not £299 and no competition, so lame graphics forever. Yes the XENOS in the 360 is custom but it's still a Radeon at heart.So think before you write drivel...PC is where console shit is tested... DirectX11 for the next gen whilst PC will be on 12
    Edited by 1 at 01/09/11 @ 18:53

  • TexMurphy01 #143 6 months ago

    To those who compare this to the music situation of five years ago - while it is only anecdotal evidence, the idea of paying for music amongst my group of friends is pretty common now, whereas is certainly was not back then. Why? Because it's relatively easy and relatively cheap.

  • silversun #144 6 months ago

    I Think the publisher and developer can do what they want with there games, however there are people that buy games on pc that dont pirate the latest games and just dont want awful drm. so will make a choice based on that.

  • smelly #145 6 months ago

    It wont stop the die hard pirates - it will stop the casual pirates.

    .. therefor, if you want to play it and you're a casual pirate - you'll have to buy it (rather than copying your mates version).

    - and this is the reason we have drm. It wont stop the small penised twats who dont have a girlfriend or job (or life) and subsequently have oodles of spare time from cracking your game. But it will stop someone from just ripping a copy for his mates to play.

  • smelly #146 6 months ago

    (and i assume the negative comes from someone who saw my comment about the small penis and no life as being a little too close to home for comfort)


    EDIT : Quote : "No, smelly, it was because you sound like a whiny little bitch. "

    And there was me thinking it was all you pirates on this forum moaning like bitches about the drm... Whats the matter, did the crack you downloaded contain a virus or something?
    Edited by 1 at 01/09/11 @ 22:55

  • El_Armonista #147 6 months ago

    No, smelly, it was because you sound like a whiny little bitch.

  • bad09 #148 6 months ago

    ".. therefor, if you want to play it and you're a casual pirate - you'll have to buy it (rather than copying your mates version)."

    What are we in the 90's again????

    If people want a freebie they don't need to copy their mates version nowadays Smelly, get with the times fella! :)

  • Khosrau #149 6 months ago

    @ Smelly

    Move along people,

    Sounds like someone is projecting his own shortcomings on others.

    Ever kissed a girl Smelly? ;-)

  • orren #150 6 months ago

    ----------------
    Ubisoft has "every right" to use DRM to protect PC games from "utterly unbelievable" levels of piracy
    ----------------

    Ehm... you are aware that pirates are not affected by any DRM, right? It's only the regular customers that have to deal with all that crap...

  • orren #151 6 months ago

    ----------------
    "It wont stop the die hard pirates - it will stop the casual pirates. "
    ----------------

    Oh come on. Die hard pirates will crack it themselves. Casual pirates will just download it from a torrent a couple days later. Neither will be stopped.

  • mooseman721 #152 6 months ago

    I don't see the problem really, the drm thing has only irritated me once with batman aa, (because I couldn't remember live login). Other than that, never noticed it there. That said, all my ubi games are on 360. I think people are making a bigger deal of it than it actually is.

  • mooseman721 #153 6 months ago

    One more thing, I didn't think there was a 2nd hand pc Market anymore? I just wait til they're cheap as chips, usually only a couple of months or in a steam sale.

  • GatsbytheGreat #154 6 months ago

    "Utterly unbelievable levels of piracy on the PC? Let me tell you why:

    .

    If I pirate a gem (I don't) then I can get all of the pre-order stuff at once, as opposed to buying five copies from five fucking different retailers (Batman.)

    .

    If I pirate the game, I have a chance to see, in advance, that yours just copies another big title out there (badly, I might add - Two Worlds II, anyone?)

    .

    If I pirate your game, guess what, I can actually play it while my ISP performs maintenance on their network (again) as opposed to having to play online all the time.

    .

    And IF I pirate your game, I can save myself $60, since I bought the same damned game last year anyway!

    .

    If devs want people to cease pirating games, then try making games worth buying, and not locking people out of content. Try making an original title now and then, instead of Call of Modern Battlefield: 2011: Dark Ops Sixteen where I can play as Gumby, but only if I buy the game from Circuit Fucking City, online, on a Tuesday afternoon between 2pm and 230pm while unlock codes last." I am quoting one genius PC Gamer.

  • Lamb #155 6 months ago

    Dear Ubisoft,

    I am interested in purchasing your Anno 2070 building game provided it receives very favorable reviews and has no tages or persistent online required drm.

  • DodgyPast #156 6 months ago

    @ jetsetwillie

    How am I a parasite when I'm not pirating it? I pre-ordered Bastion but waited to see what the PC version of From Dust would be like... since that was shit ( the conversion ) I didn't buy or pirate it. Very few games are must buy at full price for me, though I did pick up Bastion, Limbo and Deus:EX on steam this month.

    The only time I would pirate is if it gives me a better version and because I gain satisfaction from saying f off to companies that use retarded DRM.

    This isn't exactly an uncommon position either, and it's a shame that Ubi's shareholders don't care enough about the business they invest in to try and understand why they're losing money by demanding Ubi tries to combat piracy in such an idiotic fashion... but hey if you can't be arsed to understand he businesses you invest in you deserve to get ripped off.

  • Concrete #157 6 months ago

    @azic
    I'm glad that I make you laugh mate, I'm of the opinion that not enough people have happiness in their lives on a daily basis. I *think* you may have the wrong end of the stick however, I'm not saying that I think consoles are better than PC, simply that these days they are more profitable to develop on.

    I'm primarily a PC gamer myself, case in point: I bought the PC version of Deus Ex last weekend despite owning both consoles.

    You may well have an uber rig, but that marks you out as a 'hardcore' gamer, and therefore likely to have consoles as well. If publishers believe they are going to make a net loss (sales lost on consoles due to piracy on PC SKU > additional sales generated by releasing a PC SKU) then it won't happen, this isn't to spite PC gamers, its simply to ensure that they maximise their sales accross the platforms they are supporting.

  • White_Westie #158 6 months ago

    The developers have a right to protect their product.

    The problem is, is that they all started the same way, in bedrooms, in groups and are probably former "scene"

    Thats why they know the piracy is bad, is because, some of them used to be a part of it and thought... hold on lets make some money from my talents and put my skills to use...

    happened for years....

    and it will continue to ....

    Can't blame them, if you spent 2 years developing software, you would want a good return...

    the only issue is that the publisher takes a MASSIVE chunk of the revenue...

    I personally buy used games as I cant afford brand new games, it doesnt bother me to wait on Most titles
    (Battlefield 3 and Skyrim excluded!), In fact if I KNEW the money for "online functionality / multiplayer" would go direct to the dev's and not the greedy publishers shareholders pockets (as that is what it is all about)... I'd probably support it even more....

    As for continuous DRM, lifes a choice, you dont HAVE to buy the product, but if your internet goes down your snookered...

    bring back code wheels that's what I say ! ahhh... they where the days :)

  • George-Roper #159 6 months ago

    @kangarootoo

    I'm not sure the distinction is relevant is it?

    It's the entire basis of the discussion here. Game + restrictive DRM isn't a standard. That Ubisoft are still blindly forging ahead, like it fixes all their problems doesn't change that.

    I might not like BMW's finance plan, does that mean I can steal the car? I might not like the delivery times imposed by Amazon, does that make pinching a book justifiable?

    No and I never said you should go down those routes. It's funny that you seemed go straight into that, though.

    Also, those are poor comparisons. DRM directly affects software (the product) you've bought, in potentially negative ways through no direct fault of the consumer. The comparison is more akin to BMW engines turning off if you don't fill up from the 'right' petrol station and that station is shut when you need some.

    The package is what is on offer, whether that package is the game the DRM and a cuddly toy. Don't like the package, don't buy it, full stop

    Agreed and I'm doing just that.

    Selectively pinching parts of it is not justified simply by the fact that you didn't nick the bit you didn't like :)

    Again, where did I state that piracy is the solution? Passive resistance, hitting them in the wallet is IMO the best thing to do. It results in their sales taking a hit and me saving money to boot. Sure I have to grit my teeth and resist buying a game I really want but hey, that's something I've been able to live with so far.

  • Machiavellian #160 6 months ago

    Valve, EA (for the most part, they made a couple of mistakes along the way but orgin is actually lighter than Steam restrictions), CD Projekt, SEGA, Square Enix, Activision, Capcom, countless indies all say hello. Just because a handful of publishers are so blinded by torrent figures they want to break your legitimate game in bid to stop pirates doesn't mean everyone is. Thankfully, for now at least, there are still companies out there who think of the customer before the pirate.

    To be honest, UBi made the first move so the industry is watching to see how that goes. Now that Blizzard has thrown in their hand things will get very interesting. If a successful model can be put in place, you can believe the others big pubs will follow. The little guys like Indie do not have to go this way because majority of their games are to niche to garner such interest.

    Publishers are not blinded by torrent figures, what they are blinded by is the percentage of sales compared to how many people download their game. It's pretty simple for a large publisher, are we making money or not. If the game is good or great and it sales like crap on the PC but downloaded like Titanic then it's pretty clear where the problem is.

    I am not condoning DRM, I am only looking at the complete picture not just the one I want to hear. I know where this is going because I work in software and I can easily see where UBI is going. Personally I believe Providing a complete service like Steam has been a valued key to staving off piracy even though steam games are up on torrent just as fast as any other game. The difference is the discounts and ease of getting the game.

  • smelly #161 6 months ago

    @George Roper : quote :"Game + restrictive DRM isn't a standard."


    Oh, so me needing to have my game disc in my games console (despite having copied it to the hdisk) isnt restrictive? Let me guess, it's not DRM either?

    (sigh)

  • smelly #162 6 months ago

    >I do not endorse piracy in any way, but DRM clearly doesn't help.

    Of course it does. Remove drm altogether, and watch the number of available torrents sky rocket.

    Take a look at another medium - say phones. Android games are easy to pirate, hardly anyone buys android games, they either get the free ones or pirate them. iPhone games are SLIGHTLY more complicated to pirate, and far less piracy goes on.

    I could point you towards the dreamcast which was easy to pirate for, etc etc... But you've jumped on the internet bandwagon of everyone saying "drm is evil" so the 'masses' have spoken... Doesnt mean they're right, just means there's more of you.

  • George-Roper #163 6 months ago

    @smelly

    Oh, so me needing to have my game disc in my games console (despite having copied it to the hdisk) isnt restrictive? Let me guess, it's not DRM either?

    Yes. Well done. That's probably the original form of DRM and the 'norm' for many, many, many years now on consoles.

    If only 'leaving the disc' in the drive was a solution for the PC as well. It's a hell of a lot better than relying on an internet connection and DRM servers to both be up and available, consistently before the game can even be started and then if it can, whilst the game is being played.

    It's in no way comparable and you're showing your trollish colours by even attempting to draw the comparison.

  • WizenWolfBain #164 6 months ago

    Make a good game and people might buy it. Make an excellent game and people will buy it. Make a shit game and people will pirate it.

    Get over it.

    The biggest irony is that the only people that are punished by DRM is the actual customers, in most cases.
    Edited by 1 at 01/09/11 @ 23:16

  • azic #165 6 months ago

    Oh fuck this... UBI HEAR THIS.
    Due to the fact you yet again shit all over us PC gamers... Not the DRM I can live with that, but because you again have delayed the PC version for no apparent reason at all, was about to buy it on steam right now for 34.99 English hard earned, but now it says sept 30th???
    So as a big thank you to your selfish greedy fucking selves, you delayed it so that you can milk the console versions you greedy cunts..

    I am playing it right now, on my 360... My game disk is kinda strange however.... It had no art work on it, and the disk has VERBATIM written on it! Oh and it came in a digital box from usenet as a gift from some group calling themselves...... Oh, oh I forgot the name.... Anyway fuck it I am so angry though, I had to burn this .ISO File ON MY PC would you believe... Thing is fuckers... I'm playing it right now and it's awesome because it's free, only took 20 mins on my virgin 100MB connection that's 12 Mega Bytes a second not MegaBits.

    Oh and moding my 360.... Total breeze.. Took all of 15 mins using a SATA CABLE and a spare sata power connector in my PC, opening the case on an elite was tricky but not so bad.

    So all in all Greedy UBI, you just lost a sale and I just opened pandoras free game box... If I get banned from live which the software I used says I won't, well I don't care I'll do it again. I can buy your games, but now I can choose not to, and I can still play them.

    Those loser PC gamers are crazy, they get games 10 years later with shitty DRM and they Pay for it. I get them weeks early and for sweet FA.

    !!!!DISCLAIMER!!!!
    The above in relation to CONSOLE piracy is fictitious and is merely a rant (-:





    Ho ho ho now I have a mustang.

    Edited by 1 at 01/09/11 @ 23:41

  • azic #166 6 months ago

    @Concrete
    Sorry I should not of called you an Idiot, please accept my apologies.
    The point I was trying to convey is.. PC games can be and are profitable, and are usually just Ports anyway.
    Point being is that one can not deny that PC sets the standard for gaming and pushes things forward.

    If we were stuck with 4-6 year cycles what would be the point. Imagine you had a car with 6.3 L engine and 90% of forecourts said no, we allow cars only with 1.6 L engines and below to fill up here.
    There would be no more Nice powerful cars.

    Edited by 1 at 02/09/11 @ 00:01

  • thesaxmaniac #167 6 months ago

    "Ubisoft has every right to push it's customers into pirating their games to avoid terrible DRM" - Martin Edmonson, idiot, Ubisoft Reflections.

  • tehehe #168 6 months ago

    So stupid. It is not that piracy is new - it existed for ever and will exist in the future. Let your business model embrace it instead of suing you own customers. Companies should be about pleasing customer first, because money comes from them voluntarily supporting you. Today you treat consumers like criminals, treat piracy like a plague and continue to invest into failed business model with no hope of ever succeeding. Intellectual "property" is a failed concept and stands in exact opposition with private property.

  • VibratingDonkey #169 6 months ago

    The solution to piracy is not to worsen the experience for your legitimate users. I don't know what's so difficult to understand about that.

  • smelly #170 6 months ago

    >It's in no way comparable and you're showing your trollish colours by even attempting to draw the comparison.


    Yes it is... It's RESTRICTIVE DRM ... Which is EXACTLY what YOU said you were against....

    Without it you should be able to copy the game to your hdisk of your xbox (and your frirends for that matter) and play without disc.

    You are opposed to all "restrictive" DRM, and DRM in a games console is just that.

    But yet the forum idiots who jump on the "anti-drm bandwagon" wont understand that and will just jump to negate me.

    *sigh*

  • smelly #171 6 months ago

    >@PC games can be and are profitable

    Says who? Unless i was making some casual game, or an online only game... I wouldnt touch the PC with a barge pole... For the EXACT same reason that you'd be a fucking moron to spend time developing games for the android -- which werent free and full of ads.

  • bad09 #172 6 months ago

    God I can't wait for the WiiU so Smelly can stop trolling PC threads. He only started when no one cared about the Wii anymore.....

  • bad09 #173 6 months ago

    @ Machiavellian

    Well as I understand it wasn't Valve actually the first? I'm pretty sure I read they foolishly didn't have an offline mode in Steam at the start.

    If the industry is watching Ubi they surely see their name is mud across the entire internet with a lot of people just not buying their games, certainly EA backed away from this sort of thing after C&C4 (although they tried again with Bioware on slightly a more relaxed version in DA2 - still buy it though). yeah Blizzard are throwing their weight around now but I really don't think it influence that many others as for many customer is the focus and unless the industry has it's head in the clouds regarding customers they'll surely know many of us just simply don't want it and are more than prepared to walk away from games with it.

  • George-Roper #174 6 months ago

    @smelly

    Proper grasping at straws there.

    Media-in-slot 'DRM' had been in place for a long time now. It was accepted and embraced all the way back to the first consoles, because it's not intrusive.

    A more accurate comparison to this always-on DRM would be if said media mechanisms were inherently unreliable. Sticking your SNES cart in may or may not work, not due to hardware fault but due to an accepted and acknowledged flakiness of the technology.

    Also, media DRM in this regard was never also at the mercy of the publisher. When you bought your Megadrive cart, the game was yours forever, irrespective of whether the dev or publisher went under or not. Now what happens if Ubisoft tanks? Are they going to patch the DRM out m? If they're going under anyway, why fucking bother?

    Ubisoft have the right to do whatever they believe is correct to protect their bottom line. Just as I have the right to look at their draconian DRM and choose to spend my money elsewhere.

  • azic #175 6 months ago

    @smelly
    So simple questions. Why is steam so huge? Why are EA very aggressively pushing Origin? Why are UBI pushing uplay? all on the PC.
    In fact why is everybody wanting their own version of Steam?

    Why would they bother if PC games do not make money?
    The lazy sell out Dev's like Epic and frankly idiots like Cliffy B who constantly "DOG" on the PC to excuse their real reason which is we make more from a console than from a PC game because we are lazy and could not care less about our roots. Look at epics new tech demo? that could easily run on a PC of today with a reasonable GPU and CPU. But they wont release anything now because they are lazy, and because they want to keep it for next gen which consoles, which by the way will still lag behind PC's of last year.

    Its not only Devs, its Shops too GAME being one of the worst. Any way whatever, if PC gaming dies off so will all the GPU and I guess Motherboard manufactures.

    Then you will be sorry, because you cant put a new GPU in your Console. Also think about how games are made? ATI / NVIDIA all produce kits for console devs to make games and take advantage of the GPU in said console. Where do you think this filters down from? Ill tell you... The drivers and dev software for making it work on PC's

    When there are no off the shelf GPU's anymore to use, how much do you think PS5/XBOX 1080 will cost? You will be paying for the GPU dev for the consoles.

    So short sighted smelly.... but then cant really expect anything less judging by your comments.

    Oh and just so you know... every single iPhone app and its updates are on the net, just like every PS3 & 360 game.

    Microsoft should be doing more for the PC much more.. They the industry and us as gamers will be very sorry if PC dies as a game platform, this I can guarantee.
    Edited by 1 at 02/09/11 @ 09:17

  • actionfitz #176 6 months ago

    ""You have to do something," studio founder Martin Edmonson declared."

    Even if that Something is completely irrelevant to pirates and only paying customers are affected.
    Wanker.

  • space_ace #177 6 months ago

    Always make it as easy as possible for your customers and they will be happy to pay. Don't let corporate BS Drive you away from this simple truth.

  • El_Armonista #178 6 months ago

    @smelly

    "iPhone games are SLIGHTLY more complicated to pirate"

    I'm going to go right ahead and assume that by "SLIGHTLY more complicated" you really mean "laughably easy", on account of it taking me all of 5 mins to google then apply the necessary software change on my iPhone.

  • cheeky_BILLY #179 6 months ago

    What's 'utterly unbelievable' is how much you've fucked up the once mighty Driver series. What all this flying between cars rubbish. It's not fucking assassins creed!