Is DA2 "unrealistically bisexual"?

By Wesley Yin-Poole Published 25 March, 2011

It's not just for "the straight male gamer".

BioWare writer David Gaider has launched an impassioned defence of the romance system in fantasy role-playing game Dragon Age II after a player accused the developer of neglecting "the Straight Male Gamer".

There may be spoilers ahead.

"In Dragon Age 2, I felt like most of the companions were designed to appeal to other groups foremost, Anders and Fenris for gays and Aveline for women given the lack of strong women in games, and that for the straight male gamer, a secondary concern," wrote user Bastal on the BioWare forum.

"It makes things very awkward when your male companions keep making passes at you. The fact that a "no homosexuality" option, which could have been easily implemented, is omitted just proves my point."

Responding in a lengthy forum post, Gaider defended Dragon Age II's romances and insisted the game was designed to appeal to all types of players.

"The romances in the game are not for 'the straight male gamer', he said. "They're for everyone. We have a lot of fans, many of whom are neither straight nor male, and they deserve no less attention."

He continued: "The truth is that making a romance available for both genders is far less costly than creating an entirely new one. Does it create some issues of implementation? Sure - but anything you try on this front is going to have its issues, and inevitably you'll always leave someone out in the cold.

"In this case, are all straight males left out in the cold? Not at all. There are romances available for them just the same as anyone else. Not all straight males require that their content be exclusive, after all, and you can see that even on this thread.

"Would I do it again? I don't know. I doubt I would have Anders make the first move again - at the time, I thought that requiring all romances to have Hawke initiate everything was the unrealistic part. Even if someone decides that this makes everyone 'unrealistically' bisexual, however, or they can't handle the idea that the character might be bisexual if they were another PC... I don't see that as a big concern, to be honest.

"Romances are never one-size-fits-all, and even for those who don't mind the sexuality issue there's no guarantee they'll find a character they even want to romance. That's why romances are optional content. It's such a personal issue that we'll never be able to please everyone. The very best we can do is give everyone a little bit of choice, and that's what we tried here."

In Dragon Age II both male and female-created characters can initiate romances with multiple party members through dialogue choices, and in some cases have sex.

Dan Whitehead rolled an 8/10 in Eurogamer's Dragon Age II review. "An enduring classic?" he asked. "Not quite. A satisfying epic? Absolutely."

Picture of Wesley.

About Wesley Yin-Poole

Wesley is Eurogamer's news editor. He likes news, interviews, and more news. He also likes Street Fighter more than anyone can get him to shut up about it.

Read more articles from Wesley by visiting the Wesley Yin-Poole archive page.

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Comments (177) Latest comment 11 months ago

Comments threads automatically close after 30 days, but please feel free to continue chatting on the forum!

  • local_celebrity #1 11 months ago

    Animal, mineral, vegetable - no form of sexual depravity is too low for me.

  • Shinetop #2 11 months ago

    "I'll do anything to anything."
    "Fine words for a bishop."

  • deadmonkeyuk #3 11 months ago

    I started out playing DA2 as a well rounded straight male, after 20 hours of playing this game I am now cruising the streets at night looking for men! Please hurry up and release Duke Nukem to save me from a life of Sin.

  • LHH #4 11 months ago

    Gotta love how one of the main talking points of a game is the relationships you can have in it. :/

  • Shinetop #5 11 months ago

    How completely and utterly insecure do you have to be to get upset enough at having a male character make a - completely ignoreable - pass at you in a video game to make a lenghty forum post about it? Amazing.

    Keep on perpetuating those stereotypes, male gamers.

  • lexxx #6 11 months ago

    "unrealistically bisexual"? unlike the totally realistic magic and dragons, etc

    i think people would have to try really hard to be offended by it all

  • President_Weasel #7 11 months ago

    "sorry, not interested. Thanks though."
    "oh, all right then"

    OH NO, SOCIAL TRAUMA. MY MALEY STRAIGHTEYNESS IS ASSAILED.

  • Firvulag #8 11 months ago

    It sure is hard being a straight male in today's society!
    so much oppression and neglect, gay people dont even know!

  • kangarootoo #9 11 months ago

    "The fact that a "no homosexuality" option, which could have been easily implemented, is omitted just proves my point.""

    What a prick. People see what they want to see.


    I want this to become a standard random internet reference, like "better than halo" and "that is what hitler would say". Part way through an argument about DRM, someone should break out "the absence of a "no homosexuality" option just proves my point" :)

  • SteveHolt #10 11 months ago

    Another unrealistically slow news day, I guess.

  • Hughtendo #11 11 months ago

    He's no doubt perfectly comfortable with killing people in the game, but god forbid he's exposed to some homosexuality.
    Edited by 1 at 25/03/11 @ 10:24

  • Stranded87 #12 11 months ago

    It did annoy me that turning Anders down gave me rivalry points with him, when I wanted him as a friend and had in no way pursued a romance. It would have equally annoyed me if the same thing happened with a female character I had no interest in romancing. What's more his initiation came completely out of the blue when I barely knew him which didnt seem very believable. Again that would be an issue were it a female initiating the romance too.

    It wasn't a big deal, but I think the instance of Anders flirting with you (which by the sounds of things was what caused this forum rant) was clunkily handled.

  • Eraser #13 11 months ago

    I'm pretty sure no straight male gamer would have a problem with playing as a female and having another female make suggestive remarks at you.

  • kangarootoo #14 11 months ago

    "I don't have a problem with homosexuality as long as it's not flaunted"

    I know where this is going.

    "I refused to have anders in my party"

    Sounds a bit like having a problem to me.

    "anders kept trying to give me a virtual bumming"

    And we've arrived. Homophobe town, last stop, everybody off.
    Edited by 1 at 25/03/11 @ 10:27

  • Dizzy #15 11 months ago

    I think this says it all:

    <a href="http://www.cad- comic.com/cad/20110314
    ">http://www.cad- comic.com/cad/20110314
    </a>

    I agree 100%, I am afraid to click on any option with some male companions, Bioware is just focusing on this sexual thing with companions too much IMHO. It was fun first time... now it is getting old. You should actively persue a sexual relation in games like this, not end up being harassed (by any sex) by virtual characters. It all feels so childish teenager angst TBH. Everybody seems to be hitting on me. How realistic is that?
    Edited by 3 at 25/03/11 @ 10:44

  • Captain_Jono #16 11 months ago

    Basic human civility, lesson 94. A gay man makes an unwelcome pass at you in a club. Which is the correct response:

    A) Politely decline the advance.
    B) Punch his lights out.
    C) Write to your MP demanding that Homosexuality be legislated against in order to convenience you and your narrow minded world view!

    Answers on the back of a postcard.

  • urbanphilosopher #17 11 months ago

    Better question: 'Is almost every other game out there unrealistically heterosexual?'
    Edited by 1 at 25/03/11 @ 10:35

  • Dizzy #18 11 months ago

    "Basic human civility, lesson 94. A gay man makes an unwelcome pass at you in a club. Which is the correct response:

    A) Politely decline the advance.
    B) Punch his lights out.
    C) Write to your MP demanding that Homosexuality be legislated against in order to convenience you and your narrow minded world view!
    "

    In DA2, A and C would result in anal sex and B would result in a blowjob.

  • DreadedWalrus #19 11 months ago

    Captain_Jono: The fact that a "no homosexuals" dance floor, which could have been easily implemented, is omitted just proves my point.
    Edited by 2 at 25/03/11 @ 10:40

  • munki83 #20 11 months ago

    Well it is a role playing game :p

  • SeesThroughAll #21 11 months ago

    It's not offensive, completely optional to the story (just say no, what's the big deal?), and does not detract from the experience in any way.

    What people could wonder about is whether the game itself still feels like Dragon Age, or rather like a Mass Effect mod.
    Edited by 1 at 25/03/11 @ 10:41

  • Darren #22 11 months ago

    I like that my male Hawke character is having a relationship with Anders but that is only because I *chose* to pursue it. It hasn't stopped the women making the odd pass but I'm or, rather he, isn't interested. I could easily have seduced one of the women if I'd wanted.

    The point I'm making is that the game is only "gay" as people seem to be calling it if you chose to go that route; after all if someone makes a pass at you in real-life, regardless of yours or their sexual orientation, it is up to you whether you go ahead with it. The game reflects that and I appreciate being given a choice - it is a role-playing game after all - even if these relationships have no overall bearing on the gameplay.

  • ShiroBen #23 11 months ago

    I ... what? What's the problem here?

  • M_of_the_sys #24 11 months ago

    I remember telling Zevran to stop in DA:o. I was more annoyed that he disapproved of my character not swinging his way. How narrow minded.

  • uknortherner2000 #25 11 months ago

    I have no problem whatsoever with homosexuality in games. SecuROM, installation limits, watered-down RPG elements, reused assets and day-one DLC on the other hand...

  • SlackMaster #26 11 months ago

    But to be honest you seem to be come on to by all the men in your party meanwhile the women in your party are slim pickings and are hard to romance.

  • Shinetop #27 11 months ago

    I think this says it all [..]
    I agree 100%, I am afraid to click on any option with some male companions, Bioware is just focusing on this sexual thing with companions too much IMHO. It was fun first time... now it is getting old.

    The thing that "says it all" is the fact that you "just" claim to have a problem with Bioware focusing too much on sexuality, but one sentence before you mention only being afraid to click dialogue options with some male companions. So a game overly focussed on sexuality is only a problem when it involves men?
    Edited by 2 at 25/03/11 @ 10:48

  • UncleLou #28 11 months ago

    I can't even imagine how uptight and insecure one must be to seriously complain about this. Crazy.

  • Raz76 #29 11 months ago

    To be fair there haven't been a proper gay fantasy love story since Lord of the Rings.

  • Dizzy #30 11 months ago

    >So a game overly focussed on sexuality is only a problem when it involves men?

    As you might have noticed I added some comments later to clarify that I have no problem with homosexuality at all. I just think the sexual extras in the Bioware games are getting annoying. In ME2 you had to work a bit to persue a relationship (as it is in real life). In DA2 it is a bit out of control IMHO. I think they are focusing their efforts on wrong parts of the game. Like I said before.. are they targetting the Twilight crowd.
    Edited by 2 at 25/03/11 @ 10:57

  • Shinetop #31 11 months ago

    It's just not done right.

    No, it's just the fact that you're a homophobe.

  • kar #32 11 months ago

    I think this is more of just another issue manifest from a rushed development.

    The characterisations feel shallow and forced, like a lot of aspects in this game.

    I've finished the game now and it was ok, but I played DA:o 4 times over as well as getting DLC. This game is a bit like a big mac meal. It's generally agreeable while not feeling substantial in anyway.

    And the romance 'options' are similarly unsatisfying. Romance in this game feels sadly perfunctory a bit like much of the combat and quests actually.

  • Darren #33 11 months ago

    @Raz76 - Well, Gears of War and its sequel came close though... ;)

  • GreatBlackthorn #34 11 months ago

    Well in reality gay men will be interested in gay men. The sexual free-for-all approach doesn't strike me as realistic. Choosing orientation at the character create screen would solve it; not to have everyone suddenly gay or straight or lock out gay characters, just to have the world treat you appropriately. Also not having all your party a bit so quick to bed would be nice.

    The current method doesn't discriminate against straight males though. What a dumb thing to say.

  • Shinetop #35 11 months ago

    As you noticed I added some comments later to clarify that I have no problem with homosexuality at all. I just think the sexual extras in the Bioware games are getting annoying. In ME2 you had to work a bit to persue a relationship (as it is in real life). In DA2 is is a bit out of control IMHO.

    And yet you never mention the fact that the females are too easy to romance being a problem. In fact you expicitly state just having a problem with the men.

  • kinky_mong #36 11 months ago

    "I don't want any queers near me when I'm killing kids!"

    -Bill Hicks on gays in the military.

  • Shinetop #37 11 months ago

    Well in reality gay men will be interested in gay men.

    Wait, what? What kind of bizarre reality do you live in?

    I wish I lived there. Just imagine, just the fact that you're attracted to someone being instant assurance that they are of the same sexual orientation.
    Edited by 1 at 25/03/11 @ 10:59

  • geeza2020 #38 11 months ago

    It doesnt really surprise me that the there are people who are offended by homosexuals in a fantasy rpg, theres a small amount of people who play RPG's that have very little real life experience and would not be able to tell the difference between a gay man making an honest inquiry into their own sexuality and a serial rapist unfortunately. Its just kids being kids, they'll probably grow out of it when they get a bit older and have a bit more experience in life and relationships of their own.


    P.S. This is not a dig at ALL RPG players (I'm one!!), just a certain part of the audience.
    Edited by 1 at 25/03/11 @ 10:59

  • Dizzy #39 11 months ago

    "And yet you never mention the fact that the females are too easy to romance being a problem. In fact you expicitly state just having a problem with the men. "

    Oh dear... forget it. It is going to turn out on of those Internet conversations where you don't actually read the comments or start focusing on details. Seen it, done it, got the t-shirt. Enjoy the thread. Not opening that can of worms.

  • Crea #40 11 months ago

    Call me old fashioned, but I preferred it when RPGs were about slaughtering Kobolds (racism is acceptable against Kobold-kind), and not about sexual politics of any stripe.

  • Shinetop #41 11 months ago

    Oh dear... forget it. It is going to turn out on of those Internet conversations where you don't actually read the comments or start focusing on details. Seen it, done it, got the t-shirt. Enjoy the thread. Not opening that can of worms.

    Leaving the thread because you don't want to admit you were wrong. A classy and expected followup.

  • jstar #42 11 months ago

    Maybe if any of these relationships were handled with a degree of wit and intelligence and, heaven forbid, some authenticity then they would be interesting. Unfortunately however all of sexual relationships in Dragon Age 2 are poorly written, clumsily executed and unbearably basic and childish. They really are stunningly pathetic portrayals of human emotion and this applies to all of them.

    Having said that I don't even know how insecure you must have to be to make an issue out of this.

  • el_pollo_diablo #43 11 months ago

    "no homosexuality" option?

    Fucking christians.

  • Stranded87 #44 11 months ago

    Yeah I just dont think in Anders case that it's handled very well, I have no problem with bisexual or gay characters as long as they're believable (hell my character had a threesome with a man and a woman) and said other man hit on me numerous times without it bothering me, but it fitted more with his character.

    Actually to be honest I dont think any of the romances are handled very well, they're all rushed and under developed, it's just in Anders case it's more pronounced as he makes the first move, seemingly falling in love with you during the first or second conversation you have. If Bioware had spent less time filling every inch of the game world with bat shit blood mages and more time developing your companions I think the game would have been altogether stronger.

  • ryandsimmons #45 11 months ago

    Everybody seems to be hitting on me. How realistic is that?

    Perfectly realistic. People hit on me all the time, maybe you just aren't as fabulous and attractive as me?

  • el_pollo_diablo #46 11 months ago

    @ryandsimmons

    Fancy a drink after work?

  • Sunyavadin #47 11 months ago

    "Closeted Gamers Uncomfortable With Being Forced To Confront Their Suppressed Homosexuality"

  • sonicyoda #48 11 months ago

    Can it just be, you know, a game?

  • BigJonno #49 11 months ago

    @el_pollo_diablo

    The irony of your post is just delicious.

  • BuddyChrist #50 11 months ago

    I thought Bisexuals were lies generated by the porn industry and the Sims

    ... They just do it for attention anyway



  • ryandsimmons #51 11 months ago

    @el_pollo_diablo

    That genuinely made me laugh.

    Well done that man.

  • metalangel #52 11 months ago

    "These sicko queers ruin our games"

    I don't see the problem. Just goes to show how insecure all these morons are if they feel threatened by pretend homosexuals.

  • M_of_the_sys #53 11 months ago

    @ryandsimmons

    I thought you'd be used to it?

  • whoyouknow #54 11 months ago

    "It makes things very awkward when your male companions keep making passes at you. The fact that a "no homosexuality" option, which could have been easily implemented, is omitted just proves my point."

    Me? I just don't like black people. Where's my "no black people" option? C'mon, how am I supposed to exercise my prejudice?

  • GreatBlackthorn #55 11 months ago

    @Shinetop: I said interested, not attracted. At no point in my life has a gay/bisexual man pursued me after knowing I'm straight. Nor would I do so to a lesbian.

  • Yossarian #56 11 months ago

    Who cares about this when the game sucks? Maybe if Bioware spent less time reading Twilight novels and implementing frankly embarrassing 'romance' in their game, they could spare a thought for, you know, roleplaying and deep combat and designing more than three fucking dungeons.

  • MojoDex #57 11 months ago

    I played as a female Hawke and slept with Isabella and Merrell. Perfect straight male option in my eyes!

  • telboy007 #58 11 months ago

    I like banging birds, but I also enjoy gargling balls. Sounds like this game is perfect for me!

  • jonbwfc #59 11 months ago

    Dear Lord, can you imagine the absolute sh!thurricane of outrage there'd have been if they actually had put a 'homosexuality off switch' in the game options?

    Jon

  • GamesConnoisseur #60 11 months ago

    I finished first playthrough and slept with two females successfully with my male mage and tried it with one more but didnt succeed.

    What the fuss?! Seems depends how you plays the game more than anything?!! So reflecting on your own secret desires and looking for further meanings?

    Its just a damn game!

  • IronCladChicken #61 11 months ago

    'The fact that a "no homosexuality" option, which could have been easily implemented, is omitted just proves my point.'

    How does that prove a point?

  • Shikasama #62 11 months ago

    I love the people saying 'it's not offensive'. What they actually mean is 'I don't personally find it offensive.'

  • mattius30 #63 11 months ago

    I applaud Bioware for even contemplating the idea of offering same-sex relationships. I don't care whether they are clumsily implemented or that they are not ultra-realistic in their approach. I find it far more realistic that the potential is there, probably because I don't live in a world where I presume everyone is straight.

    Besides, apart from the Fable series and the tarot-reading cliche in Faranheit, I cannot think of any other prominent gay characters in a video game. The way this guy who posted his forum rant is going on, its as though DA2 was the straw that broke the camel's back - 'I canna stand it no more' kind of thing.

    I should also add that I am currently into my 26th hour in Yakuza 4. I am dating four stunning hostesses who are utterly in love with me, I take them all on dates especially to the hot springs table tennis club where I can stare at their tits in slo-mo to boost my attack bar. As a gay guy who has been married to his dude for 5 years, I am disgusted by the fact these girls throw themselves at me. It is making me question what I've been doing these last five years and why I bought the game in the first place, knowing that this was an element of the game... Duh!
    Edited by 1 at 25/03/11 @ 11:52

  • Anteros #64 11 months ago

    Just have an option to remove Blacks, Gays, Jews, Liberals, Violence, Sex, Musical Instruments - could be called the 'Fox-Sponsored Pong Switch'... oh might need to add guns for the true right-wing feel

  • Boomerang #65 11 months ago

    The fact that we're even having this discussion just proves how far games have come - evoking actual emotions and delving into the complex world of sexuality and relationships (however clumsily handled) is a sign of a maturing industry. One that I, for one, welcome.

  • thesombrerokid #66 11 months ago

    as opposed to all those realistic dragons cutting about, i understand the romance options feeling a little too intrusive, but it's not the sexuality of my companions that bothered me, it was that regardless of sexuality any character who brought that kind of thing up comes across too sleezy

  • MetalDog #67 11 months ago

    In his full statement he makes a remark that I think hits the nail on the head for all sorts of 'outrages'.

    "You can write it off as “political correctness” if you wish, but the truth is that privilege always lies with the majority. They’re so used to being catered to that they see the lack of catering as an imbalance. They don’t see anything wrong with having things set up to suit them, what’s everyone’s fuss all about? That’s the way it should be, any everyone else should be used to not getting what they want."

  • LiamK #68 11 months ago

    "I like banging birds, but I also enjoy gargling balls."

    But which is better? There's only one way to find out...

  • jefranklin18 #69 11 months ago

    Hopefully this will come to other games. I want Call of Duty to become as camp as a Scissor Sisters concert. ;)

  • kangarootoo #70 11 months ago

    "I love the people saying 'it's not offensive'. What they actually mean is 'I don't personally find it offensive.'"

    How could the two ever be different? Offense is in no way objective.

  • MrChuckles #71 11 months ago

    Why are there never any complaints about lesbians in games...

    'Oh god, there was that lesbian kiss, it was awful!'

    Who cares if the guy is gay and comes onto you (Well, doesn't 'come onto' you, that would be inappropriate) , if you aren't interested, say 'no thanks old bean, can you introduce me to your sister?'.

  • cen4pgb #72 11 months ago

    The fact that they are all bi is abit much, and in many ways weakens the charecterisations, and cheapens the handelling of sexuality.

  • mamiasma #73 11 months ago

    I'm about half way through and every time I go home Hawke's mum keeps darkly muttering about setting me up with Lord Suchandsuch's daughter. Is there a dialogue option later on when I get to bring Ander's home and have a conversation about how she might have a bit of a wait for grandchildren?

  • Douche #74 11 months ago

    I haven't played this game, but it sounds a bit nuts going by some of the comments.

  • Valis #75 11 months ago

    I responded to this here:

    Top 5 games more gay than Dragon's Age 2
    http://ca lmdowntom.com/2011/03/top-5-gam...

  • metalangel #76 11 months ago

    @mattius: Gay Tony is so hurt you forgot him!

  • Freek #77 11 months ago

    One person complained on the official forums over something trivial? Why did a developer even justify the stupid comment with a response and why is it even news??

    There's dumb things posted on the official forums pretty much constantly. I thought developers tuned out such idiocy?

  • GAmbrose #78 11 months ago

    @el_pollo_diablo.

    You also reminded me of the funniest joke in Monkey Island 3.

  • Marshall2008 #79 11 months ago

    So, when your buddy tries it on with you cant you just thank him for the compliment or kill him? Or maybe beat him off? if that floats your boat.

  • darkmorgado #80 11 months ago

    What a load of hilariously ignorant bullshit.

    I bet it never ocurred to this player that for 99.99% of the time the shoe is very much on the other foot. Game after game is released featuring ridiculous amounts of macho posturing and tits and ass and noone says anything, but the second someone makes a game that appeals to other sexualities, people are up in arms saying that heterosexuals are being sidelined?

    Fuck off back to gears of war you ignorant prick.

  • Tryhard #81 11 months ago

    I never thought I would ever see a comment for a no homosexual option in a video game in my life time.Guess I was wrong.

    The Mibari Warhound was good for a roll in the hay.
    Edited by 1 at 25/03/11 @ 13:12

  • darkmorgado #82 11 months ago

    Oh, and asking for a "no homosexuality" option? What is this, f*cking South Africa during apartheid or something?

  • Daikon #83 11 months ago

    Why not allow you to enter your sexual orientation at character creation?
    Worked for Arnie in Total Recall...

  • Moribundman #84 11 months ago

    I think a lot of people are confusiong homophobia with anger at Biowares impersonalisation.

    If they want to make all companions a "free for all" love interest, they should at least define a strict personality for each one - straight but can be turned gay, out and out (and out) gay or totally celebate. If companions can have different classes, races and genders, why do they ALL have to have a blank slate sexuality with strong leanings in Hawke's direction? In ME you could turn Ash from a racist into a liberal or Kaiden from a pacifist into a Biotic fundamentalist. Why not allow this sort of SUBTLE flexibility with sexuality?

    I think the issue here is purely and simply one of overkill. In the first game, you had Zevran and Leliana who were bisexual and Alistair and Morrigan who were heterosexual. If you wanted to romance the heterosexual characters with a same sex player you couldn't. That seems reasonable to me. In real life you can't just reprogram someone to fit in with your proclivities.

    With Dragon Age 2 they have tried to redress the balance and gone far too far the other way. ALL of your companions except Aveline (who you can't "smash";) and Sebastian (ditto) are bisexual nymphomaniacs.

    To romance someone in Mass Effect 1/2 or DA:o you had to plug away with the flirty lines and assert an interest in your love interests feelings, then eventually you'd "win".

    In Dragon Age 2, you meet a companion, shake hands and then they make a pass at you. Male or female. All of them. No distinction in terms of some characters being a little more cautious (maybe one character could have been repressive about at least one of their sexual preferences and you had to win them round...)

  • darkmorgado #85 11 months ago

    @Moribund

    Erm, people can't be turned gay you know. That's just homophobic propaganda spouted by the idiots over the years.

  • WiseGuy #86 11 months ago

    Im about 8hrs in and have just been hit on by a male (im playing as a male).

    I want to pursuit this but will it impact on my chances of getting a relationship going with a woman if i do? Thats my only concern as i have already made in roads with the Welsh Elf (sorry cant remember any names yet)

  • Moribundman #87 11 months ago

    @darkmorgado Then allow me to rephrase - "unveil their true feelings" rathern than "turn gay".

    Trust me, as someone whose dad went and left his mum for a bloke at 50 years of age, peoples minds and opinions can be changed!

  • cen4pgb #88 11 months ago

    @darkmorgado

    TRy reading again he said that in real life you can't change peoples sexuality. (Though you can persuade someone that represses part of their sexuality for some reason to not repress it, which can make it appear like you've changed their sexuality, when really its always been there).

  • ThePissartist #89 11 months ago

    I'm heterosexual, but I'd be well up for a bit of gay love in a game! Probably because I'm comfortable with my sexuality.

  • Moribundman #90 11 months ago

    @WiseGuy As far as I know you can bang away at ALL of them as long as they'll let you, unless you choose a dialogue choice to break the relationship. I had to start banging Merrill to keep another character talking to me at the end of Act II to build up my friendship enough so that they didn't do a runner at the end of that year. Now I feel guilty because I've been banging the other character as well and didn't really care about Merrill. ;-)

  • Moribundman #91 11 months ago

    http://l3 .cdn.cad-comic.com/comics/cad-2...

  • kangarootoo #92 11 months ago

    @Moribundman

    You are right that homophobia, and handling of romance in DA2, are two different issues... but there is no confusion as to whether the root of the original posters concerns was homophobia. It clearly was.

    A post that simply serves to point out that DA does not represent real life (mages and dragons aside) doesn't need to contain language such as "It makes things very awkward when your male companions keep making passes at you". One that does has little to do with social observation - its homophobia, plain and simple.


    Perhaps some of the confusion lies in the assumption that homophobia is always "with malice". Frequently it is, but like any other phobia sometimes it is just fear at a lack of understanding. People like this poster, unusure about themselves, when confronted with such a situation, genuinely feel uncomfortable. That doesn't necessarily make him an evil shit, he just feels scared and he wants the source of his fear to go away (or have a toggle option in settings).

    Of course, most of the time when someone is confronted with something they fear, they act irrationally. Which is why homophobes so often say stupid offensive things, and act in a bigoted manner. I've never met a homophobe who didn't look uncomfortable around the subject - its ALWAYS associated with fear first and foremost, a sense of "I don't like how this makes me feel" and I'm amazed that isn't obvious to everyone.


    So what I'm saying is, just because this guy doesn't actively mean anyone any harm, doesn't mean his views aren't homophobic. And just because Bioware have perhaps not represented real life (for production reasons, as they have said, and mages/dragons not withstanding) doesn't make his homophobic viewpoint any less so.

  • epiazk #93 11 months ago

    This sucks. Really. Ive never been so aware my characters were just variables.

  • Moribundman #94 11 months ago

    @kangarootoo Thats fair enough. And all true re the original poster.

    To move things over to the area that I *did* think was valid, the great thing about Bioware RPGs is the depth you can go into (either tangibly or in an illusiary capacity) to personalise the game. You create your character, their class, tailor their past, the way they look, their race, their name, and now Bioware allows you to make your own mind up regarding sexuality. All commendable, but I think the sexuality issue just highlights a more over-arching issue with personalisation of game experience in DA:2. The decisions you make, the 10 year time frame and the correspondance Hawke receives, seem very auspicious as you play, BUT...

    [spoilers]

    You can be angry/violent, peaceful/nice, charming, sarcastic and the only real difference it seems to make is the immediate response in conversation or the wording of a letter you receive later in the game. As far as I've seen, you can end up with your sister either exiled or dead from Act 2 depending on whether you took her to the Deep Roads, but in a broad sense this doesn't seem to make a difference. I assume a similar thing is true if you refuse to fight the Arishok at the end of Act 2...

    Your sarky mean nasty Hawke warrior who let his sister die and sold Isabella out to the Arishok can have a very similar experience to your nice, moderate, peace loving rogue Hawke who let Bethany get taken to the Circle and clobbered the Arishok.

    Similarly your mean bastard beardy gay Hawke can have a virtually identical in-game love relationship with Anders as a submissive peacemaking hetero lady Hawke.

    It cheapens Anders (or Isabella or or whoever) as a character to play through multiple times and have them put out in exactly the same way...

  • alegl5141 #95 11 months ago

    FFS guys, it's 2011. What's next? Black main character in GTA5?

    You'd have thought it wouldn't be a slow news day what with a certain console launch happening...

    I'm sure there are people out there who would consider sex with a hippo that bleeds out of the arse once a month to be just as strange, you don't see news articles appearing about it though do you?

  • Moribundman #96 11 months ago

    @alegl5141 I'm sure if they did have a (fourth) black player character in GTA and they made him an OTT racial stereotype then people who are invested in the GTA series would be interested in discussing that.

  • Inmediasress #97 11 months ago

    Since the whole game is rushed they used their trumph card to make up for it.
    Namely a boatload of overly sexual dialog which feels really tacked on after a while. I'm not saying that I'm not for sexual inuendo and sultry characters but it also breaks the so called immersion that bioware and a few other studios so love to talk about in almost every interview when you over use it and make it kind of too tasteless.

  • Moribundman #98 11 months ago

    On the plus side it was great to see Zevran make a cameo in DA2. He initially seemed... rather forward... in the last game but he came across as Mr Classy when I bumped into him in the company of Isabella and Anders, both of whom wouldn't leave me alone! ;-)

  • Moribundman #99 11 months ago

    Let's take the party on holiday by mistake.

    My Uncle Monty has a cave on Sundermount, maybe we can go to his mansion in Hightown and get the key for a delightful weekEND in the country!

  • hiddenranbir #100 11 months ago

    Problem with Bioware games is EVERYTHING is innuendo, between EVERYONE.

    DA2 romance is like Fantasy Hollyoaks romance.
    Edited by 1 at 25/03/11 @ 14:46

  • intpleeus #101 11 months ago

    I haven't played Dragon Age 2 yet, but it does seem rather inconsistent to make all the (non-related) party members bisexual. At least, some party members should strongly resist a bisexual relationship, struggling with their own feelings and sexual identity (for example, initially rejecting a homosexual romance but eventually accepting if the player persists). But I can understand why Bioware made this decision, because it can be frustrating to discover that one's favourite party member is impossible to romance. Lots of people complained about this in Mass Effect 2 -- Tali was their favourite character, but they had chosen to play as a female Shepard. I wonder how many people start again from the beginning to have the romance they preferred?
    Edited by 2 at 25/03/11 @ 15:05

  • M_of_the_sys #102 11 months ago

    Oh boy...

  • NewbieZilla #103 11 months ago

    I was annoyed by getting rivalry points for not pursuing a romance with him. But, I got the same thing with Merril. With Anders it was rivalry +10 and Merril it was +5. But I didn't take too much issue with the fact Anders gave a rivalry, I took more issue with what was used as the turn down line, it was "I don't want you thinking about me like that" which Anders responds with "Another person trying to control his thoughts" which was a fair point. So, the form the rejection took was probably poorly written.

    I accept they wanted someone to pursue the relationship thing, but Anders seems a strange choice to make it. No, not because he is a guy but because of the character himself. There is him and Justice, and Justice apparently doesn't allow him to even drink alcohol. He probably shouldn't be so eager for a relationship. But, even as he is interested in having one, he does point out its a bad idea, I guess so they did it well enough.

  • RexRunti #104 11 months ago

    Why should people be accused of being hetrophobic when they complain about this thing? It's like you're not allowed to object without everyone calling you a hetrophobe.

    The fact of the matter is that it is not needed ina agme. It's not like straight community are crying out for a RPG video game that lets you get it on with a female elf ffs. Alot of people are not straight and do not want to have it thrust in their faces. Yeah i'm ok if someone's straight but I don't need it brought up in a video game. Homosexual relationships are common so it's right that the common is present in games. Some people like waiting for sex until they're married or are celebate. You also wouldn't object to people complaining if taht was involved.

    I don't mind whatsoever if straights want to be straight. But when straight stuff starts being forced upon me in stuff like video games i do object slightly. I mean if i went to a straight bar i wouldn't object to a strip show as it's in the right place. But if they put this on down wetherspoons on a friday night people are in the right to complain without being accused of hetrophobia. Do you get my point?

    Do you get my point?

  • azix2 #105 11 months ago

    "Why should people be accused of being homophobic when they complain about this thing? It's like you're not allowed to object without everyone calling you a homophobe. "

    exactly what i was thinking. The push to make homosexuality ok is so big now that the natural thing of being heterosexual and thinking there might be something odd about having homosexuality paraded in front of you is frowned on. Hetero: "What? I just would like to not be hit on by another male in a game" response : "HOMOPHOBE!!!" It's pretty damn stupid. I still can't get over how hard this homosexuality thing is being pushed as normal.


    "The fact of the matter is that it is not needed ina agme. It's not like gay community are crying out for a RPG video game that lets you get it on with a male elf ffs. Most people are not gay and do not want to have it thrust in their faces. Yeah i'm ok if someone's gay but I don't need it brought up in a video game. Male/female relationships are the norm so it's right that the norm is present in games. Some people like having sex with animals or their own family, but you don't expect Bioware to allow you to pursue a relationship with your marari hound or Bethany. You also wouldn't object to people complaining if taht was involved.

    I don't mind whatsoever if gays want to be gay. But when gay stuff starts being forced upon me in stuff like video games i do object slightly. I mean if i went to a gay bar i wouldn't object to a drag queen caberet show as it's in the right place. But if they put this on down wetherspoons on a friday night people are in the right to complain without being accused of homophbia. Do you get my point?"

    Good words. Gays and "open minded" ppl get over yourselves. I can not want homosexuality all in my face without minding if gays do their thing.

  • intpleeus #106 11 months ago

    One compromise would be to have the sexuality of some characters dependent on the player's decisions. For example, each character is tagged as heterosexual, homosexual, or bisexual, and Bioware decides on the default for each. But the players decisions at key moments can alter these tags. A player who prefers a party member of the same sex will always discover they are a possible romance, but other party members will retain their default tags. In this way, Bioware could avoid the awkward situation where all the dialogue assumes bisexuality. In other words, after particular key moments in a relationship, the party member's sexuality gets locked in until the next key moment, and all subsequent dialogue is consistent with that.
    Edited by 2 at 25/03/11 @ 15:33

  • Swifta #107 11 months ago

    I felt like it was forced on me because I did nothing to provoke it yet it popped up in my convo options... I was like, wtf are u serious? Atleast let me choose at the beginning of the damn game if I want to be straight or gay... Now, if there are lesbians involved, IM ALL IN! lol. Gay men is just nasty to me, I understand them and all, no hate or judgement against em but just a nasty feeling when I'm even reminded that they exist and what they stand for...

    I guess that it was somewhat normal for men to be gay way back in the day.... look at Alexander the Movie...

    idk, just not for me i guess.

  • jstar #108 11 months ago

    @ skeggo

    You are an ignorant prick. Talking about the 'norm' like you have a fucking clue. The 'norm' is entirely subjective. For example it is entirely normal when you live in some shitty middle England hell hole and spend your Friday nights at Wetherspoons that you become a clueless homophobic moron.

    And what the fuck do you think you are doing comparing being gay with incest and bestiality? It's people like you who are a fucking blight on society, with your old fashioned discriminatory views and closed minded attitude.

    You may be 'ok' with people being gay but I am not at all 'ok' with fucks like you. Piss off.

    And you should know that not all gay bars have transvestite caberet acts in them. Idiot.

  • UncleLou #109 11 months ago

    "The romances in the game are not for 'the straight male gamer ... They're for everyone. We have a lot of fans, many of whom are neither straight nor male, and they deserve no less attention.

    And people say PC gaming is dying."

    Are you saying PC gaming is dominated by lesbians?

  • mattius30 #110 11 months ago

    I think I may have to stop checking up on this forum subject as some of the most recent comments are depressing me beyond belief. When in this day and age people are still putting homosexuality in the same category as bestiality and incest and categorising sexuality as normal or not normal, it reminds me that I am extremely lucky that I live in a country that has laws that go some way in protecting me from this hatred and ignorance.

    I think it is hideous that someone can say 'how dare they call me homphobic' and then proceed to say things like: 'I don't mind whatsoever if gays want to be gay. But when gay stuff starts being forced upon me in stuff like video games i do object slightly.'

    There are people who are straight, people who are gay. Seriously get over it. Naively I would've thought many straight guys would want more gays in the world - less competition when it comes to pulling the birds down 'Wetherspoons'...

    If anyone is genuinely disturbed by an artifical video game character of the same (none) sex coming onto you - then there are sadly plenty of countries where being gay is still illegal. Go there and who knows, you may get to take part in a public stoning, beating or hanging.

  • Gastrian #111 11 months ago

    Classing the majority of characters as bi-sexual is actually quite inaccurate.

    We assume that these characters are bisexual because we can romance them regardless of the gender of the Hawke. Now the flaw with that assumption is that we assume that the party members and NPCs remain consistent through different playthroughs and not that they are unique to that playthrough. If we assume that these characters are consistent then we must also assume that Hawke is equally consistent as they inhabit the same universe. If we follow that to its natural conclusion then Hawke is a shemale apostate rogue templar (its a warrior specialisation).

    As the Hawke character changes between playthroughs it is comparable to playing alternate realities (think a cross between quantum leap and Sliders) and throughout those seperate universes the likes of Anders can be heterosexual in one reality but homosexual in a different reality. The only way they can be bisexual is if in a single universe they are attracted to both male and females (or if you are like me you like someone irrespective of their gender in relation to yours).

  • RexRunti #112 11 months ago

    Skeggo, like it or not a lot of people are gay. Crazy I know. God i must sound sooooo futuristic. But homosexuality is a part of the norm. There are probably more people who happen to be gay than people with blue eyes.

    You have strip clubs so straight men can stare at naked women. Gay men can also go to strip clubs and are unlikely to hit on/get hit on by the punters. Likewise straight men can go to gay clubs and are unlikely to get hit on by any of the women there.

    There is no need for relationships of any kind in a computer game. Complaining about only the optional gay ones DOES make you homophobic.

  • jstar #113 11 months ago

    You are astonishingly thick. You disagree with me and then prove my point in the same paragraph. Exactly the sort of thing an ignorant moron would do because your view of the world is built from the opinons of your bigoted and poorly educated father, the daily mail and what the lads are talking about down Wetherspoons.

    You are a fucking idiot. Well done. Epic fail at life.



  • intpleeus #114 11 months ago

    Homosexuality provokes a disgust reflex in a lot of people. The reaction is similar to seeing rotting food, touching feces, eating bugs, or, yes, beastiality and incest. The objects or actions that provoke the disgust reflex are established when young, and they are almost impossible to extricate in adulthood. For example, however much we know the bug is clean and healthy to eat, or that the feces is just a plastic model, or whatever, our disgust reflex is provoked and we experience revulsion.

    Now, it is unfortunate that so many people have a similar reaction to homosexuality, but it remains a fact. A lot of those people understand in the abstract that homosexuality is not inherently wrong or dangerous, but they cannot shake off the disgust reflexes they learned when young. The sight and thought of homosexuality is sickening and they consider it an unwelcome intrusion into their entertainment, even while they actually support equal rights for homosexuals in broader society.

    Such people are not really homophobic, they are just living with a disgust reflex tuned to consider homosexuality (particularly male) revolting. I hope this is where skeggo is coming from.
    Edited by 1 at 25/03/11 @ 17:02

  • jstar #115 11 months ago

    Gayness is like a fettish or sexual deviancy? What? What the hell is wrong with you? Where do you live? 1923?

    How old are you? I refuse to believe an adult could be so unbearably thick and ignorant. Please be 16 or something. That is your only saving grace.

    You do realise that men who are gay don't just go, 'oh, I fancy something different tonight, I'll suck some cock.' They don't find women sexually attractive. AT ALL. They find men sexually attractive. It;s not a fetish, it's not a devancy, it;s the way their body works. What they fuck are they meant to do about that?

    And please, please do not bring up the bible. Though it is almost guaranteed you are some kid of religious nut case as well I suppose.

  • darkmorgado #116 11 months ago

    skeggo, you really are an utter homophobic twat.

  • azix2 #117 11 months ago

    @intpleeus

    except homosexuality IS inherently wrong. The penis goes in the vagina, not the anus. I would love to see how you plan to insert a vagina into another vagina or a penis into another penis. Its like those childhood games where the triangle shape goes in the triangular shaped hole. Like it or not, its not natural. At the very least that should be agreed on. We are humans who might sometimes favor the unnatural so to each his own, but trying to paint it otherwise is silly to me.

    @skeggo

    Animals can show homosexual behavior but i wouldnt consider that important.
    Edited by 1 at 25/03/11 @ 16:24

  • darkmorgado #118 11 months ago

    You idiot.

    Lots of animals are gay. Homosexuality has been ovserved in over 200 species.

    There's a famous gay penguin couple in New York. It's also frequently seen in dolphins, to name two well-known examples.

    Just stop where you are mate, because you are just coming across as an astonishingly ignorant bigot attempting to justify his twisted worldview.

  • intpleeus #119 11 months ago

    Gastrian,

    That's a complete non-sequitor, but you have a good point. Because the player knows that it is possible to romance a party-member with either a male or female Hawke, the player assumes that they are bisexual in every play-through. But there is no reason to suppose that is canon. For example, Bioware could say that a character of the same sex as Hawke is straight unless Hawke shows a romantic interest, in which case they are gay or bisexual. Thedas is, after all, a fictional world -- it does not have an independent and perpetual existence. A lot of it depends on player's who interpret characters as "really" being bisexual, because they can be romanced by either sex, but there is no "really" about it, because none of its real.

  • darkmorgado #120 11 months ago

    Oh, and it's perfectly natural.

    Natural is defined as something that occurs within nature. Homosexuality does, therefore it's natural. Oh and before you go down the pathetic "that's how our bodies are designed" route, consider this - the male g-spot is in the arse.

  • darkmorgado #121 11 months ago

    Look it up if you don't believe me: [link url=http://www.nytimes.com/2004/02/07/ arts/love-that-dare-not-squeak-its-name.html
    ]http://ww w.nytimes.com/2004/02/07/arts/l...[/link]

    But of course you won't, because you're terrified that your own prejudices don't stand up to scrutiny.

  • intpleeus #122 11 months ago

    azix2,

    One cannot read purpose in bodily organs. I know it is very tempting, but it's wrong. The ear evolved from jaw bones that were used to detect vibrations in the ground, but turned out they could also be used to detect loud noises. Over time, the ear evolved to specialise at detecting sounds. We use many of our parts and faculties to solve problems and perform tasks they did not "originally" evolve for, e.g. I am typing on a keyboard with my finger tips, I can use my eyes to communicate with others, I can use my brain to critique your argument, and so on. Even the penis and vagina evolved from precursors that evolved to solve different problems. Metaphorically speaking, nature is an opportunist -- it co-opts mechanisms for all kinds of different "purposes". Consequently, there is no overriding purpose for reproductive organs; there are just the multitudinous purposes of billions of individuals.
    Edited by 2 at 25/03/11 @ 16:34

  • darkmorgado #123 11 months ago

    My arguments are perfectly sound, its yours that have absolutely no grounding in reality or fact. It's a shame you hold such twisted and bigoted views, to be frank. Luckily the vast majority of people would consider your outdated ideas to be completely abhorrent.

  • darkmorgado #124 11 months ago

    @intpleeus

    Very well put.

  • darkmorgado #125 11 months ago

    "Obscure reference"? They're famous. There's books written about them and they are a star attraction.

    And again, homosexuality has been observed in over 200 different animal species.

    Your idea of normal is basically just a platform for your prejudice and simply isn't compatible with the real world. You said you're 29 - I find that incredibly hard to believe to be honest.

  • Stymphalius #126 11 months ago

    I'm a straight male who has several gay friends and while I respect their orientation I don't choose to hear about their sexual exploits, and they understand and respect this in turn. Likewise I don't call them up to describe my hetero experiences. I'm not a homophobe but I don't want to know about what they choose to do behind closed doors. DA2 is overly sexual and if anything, I found Isabella's endless streams of sexual innuendo completely juvenile and way more offensive as a straight male (I mean really, we're meeting the viscount and you have to talk dirty?)- not to mention her ridiculous chest size. That said I also didn't like the fact that during the first conversation I had with Anders, I chose to reject him and the conversation ended abruptly before I'd even really explored all the dialogue options. That pissed me off, I felt like I was cheated out of learning more about him as a character just because I spurned his advances. As others have stated, the whole in-game relationship thing is overdone, characters should not throw themselves at you; it should be a player's choice to actively pursue a relationship with an NPC (or at most have one "slutty" bisexual character who makes an advance, not several";). I think in-game relationships can add an interesting layer to a game but I don't want to play an RPG version of The Sims or some online dating service, I want to kill stuff, collect loot and customize my character. Bioware's focus needs to move away from sex to more interesting character interaction, but sex sells and so does controversy so not sure where that leaves us.

  • azix2 #127 11 months ago

    @intpleeus

    So you believe in evolution huh? If humans try hard enough they can explain away anything. Bestiality will be just as easy to make normal. This is pointless.

    /end

  • Battlegoff #128 11 months ago

    tbh i finished da2 on tuesday night and was generally a bit let down by the whole game. i was a bit surprised by the anders flirtation but i declined him and moved on. i was more annoyed at bioware recycling the same areas for different quests but each to their own...

  • Moribundman #129 11 months ago

    @darkmorgado Like this one! ;-)

    [link url=http://www .youtube.com/watch?v=OIcrCZQkSlg
    ]http://www .youtube.com/watch?v=OIcrCZQkSlg
    [/link]

  • intpleeus #130 11 months ago

    skeggo,

    Nature doesn't "intend". There are no "freaks" in nature's eyes, because nature is not a perceiver but a process. Just because something is uncommon or rare does not make an affront against nature's purpose. After all, humans are perhaps the most bizarre animal on the planet. By your standards, we're all "freaks of nature" for having this conversation, because even among humans this is an extraordinarily rare occurrence (especially on a gaming website!). And remember, animal behaviours and abilities that are now common and "natural" were once rare and peculiar, because they had to get started somewhere. An ancestor, by mutating that ability or behaviour had an advantage that eventually led to all surviving members of the species doing the same. Other abilities and behaviours can persist in an equilibrium with others, just check out game theory and its application to evolutionary biology. Nothing is sacred in nature. Many scholars have investigated homosexuality, in humans and animals, and proposed theories explaining how it may be adaptive in particular circumstances, or in particular frequencies within a population. It's all very complicated and interesting.

  • darkmorgado #131 11 months ago

    @Stymphalius

    I get what you're saying, but other games have explored sexual themes in a far more mature and convincing manner (Heavy Rain, The Witcher - ignoring the poor decision around the sex cards thing).

    The problem isn't with there being sexual themes in gaming, the problem is that Bioware has handled the whole thing astonishingly badly with ridiculous dialogue and design that make it seem as if they are obsessed with sex (which perhaps betrays their target demographic).

    The problem in this specific case, is that these problems are just as present in the heterosexual romances in Dragon Age; but the person originally complaining specifically singled out homosexual characters. We can therefore deduce that he had no problem with the over-sexualising of women in the game, and from there it's very hard to read his comments and not come to the conclusion that he is simply being homophobic.

    I mean, seriously, the mention of a "no homosexuality" option was pretty alarming. Does he also think that games should come with a "no black people" button, "no jews", or perhaps "no strong female characters?" This is the 21st century and most people no longer hold such outdated victorian views of sex, race and gender. The world does not/ should not revolve around straight white men.

    The biggest problem here is actually that too few developers are willing to tackle mature and adult themes in videogaming (and I am not just talking sex), despite being seemingly desperate to be seen as a mature industry. While Bioware obviously completely failed at presenting anything that most people would come close to considering an accurate portrayal of romance or sex, we should at least be thankful that they have the bravery to even tackle the issue in the first place.
    Edited by 1 at 25/03/11 @ 16:52

  • darkmorgado #132 11 months ago

    @azix

    Evolution makes a lot more sense (especially if you actually understand the science) than believing in some imaginary fairy man in the sky who invented something on a whim, simply because lots of people many thousands of years ago believed it.

  • intpleeus #133 11 months ago

    azix,

    To explain something is not to condone or recommend it, and it certainly doesn't make it normal. Homosexuality is not "normal", in the sense that most people are not homosexual, but it is "normal" in the sense that homosexuals have existed as a subset of human populations for all of recorded history. The same can be said of red hair: is it normal for a person to have red hair? No. Is it normal that some people have red hair? yes.

    On the one hand, I wish to defend people who have a deeply ingrained revulsion of homosexuality, because those disgust reflexes are very difficult to unlearn. It is not wrong to find something disgusting, though it may be unfortunate. On the other hand, this talk of what is normal, natural, and freakish, and its ethical connotations, is just a lot of muddled-thinking.

  • darkmorgado #134 11 months ago

    I can feel the banhammer coming for this idiot.

  • Moribundman #135 11 months ago

    Going back to that computer game we were talking about a while back...

    I think if anyone cares to go and look through the Biowatre forums, they'll find that the FANbase (by which I mean the die hard types who'd all but had their characters facial tats done for real the day the PC character creator became available - LONG before they'd played the game...) seem to consist of just as many straight and gay angsty Twilighty teenage ladies as nerdy bumfluff beardy boys.

    The comparisons to the Sims are not without merit, and presumably have entered into the devs conscious thought processes at some stage. I just hope they don't go and ruin Mass Effect 3 by crowbarring in this whole circlejerk/diddle mechanic to your squad.

  • darkmorgado #136 11 months ago

    Skeggo is really Richard Littlejohn AICMFP

  • ThePissartist #137 11 months ago

    I hope that in 10-20 years this level of bigotry is wiped out. Soon we'll be a melting pot of race and sexuality - the day couldn't come sooner.

    Is everything really this black and white? No. There are gradients of sexuality.

    Calling someone 'queer' our similar will soon be unacceptable too.

  • Moribundman #138 11 months ago

    Yeah Skeggo STFU you silly bastard. I think somewhere deep inside what you're saying you might have originally had a valid point about how they made the game, but now you've just taken a wrong turn down Littlejohn and Manning...

  • darkmorgado #139 11 months ago

    @ThePissArtist

    It already is; it's on par with f*ggot and n*gger for being one of the most offesnively biogted words you can use.

  • tyrant1 #140 11 months ago

    I really dont care that the slash fangirl bait characters spout the slash fangirl baiting dialogue too easily, because Im secure in own my sexuality.

    What I care about is how cheap I think it is to try and suggest youre "fighting 4 graet homo justice" by making all the characters bisexual, instead of being lazy, not writing the characters well and cheapening their identity.

    Would it have hurt to actually craft unique, well rounded hetero, homo and bi characters as individuals?

    Oh excuse me, I forgot we are talking about the "its a Bioware RPG so give EA your fuckin money" rush job that is Dragon Age 2. Of course you had to be lazy, cut corners and blithely paste every romance character in the vanilla game as bisexual so nobody would be upset that certain characters actually have an identity and dont want to screw them by default.
    Edited by 1 at 25/03/11 @ 17:05

  • azix2 #141 11 months ago

    evolution makes as much sense as creation. its which one you choose to believe. You dont wish to believe that there was a GOD at the start but you believe there was SOMETHING there still that exploded and created all of this... If you believe in creation there is nothing stopping you believing that the world might have changed a little since then (some amount of evolution). The problem in not believing creation is that you think all this just happened... meh. Its not important, my point is that if you believe in evolution then your moral compass also evolves. Your idea of right and wrong changes easily depending on what has been preached enough as right or wrong. To you there is no purpose in how things are as they are like that because of circumstances. hence there is no point arguing.

    @ThePissartist

    seems thats the way the world is going. sad really. Race is not on the same scale as homosexuality btw
    Edited by 2 at 25/03/11 @ 17:18

  • Moribundman #142 11 months ago

    f*ggot... n*gger... L*ttlejohn...

  • ThePissartist #143 11 months ago

    @skego

    Natural selection will win in the end and you sir, I'm afraid to say (as much as you hate the idea), are fucked.

  • ThePissartist #144 11 months ago

    Just not literally.

  • darkmorgado #145 11 months ago

    That's a pretty simplistic and false way to describe belief in evolution and the beginning of the universe.

    Go and read some science books, there's a lot to back this stuff up in cold, hard scientific fact.

    Unlike, erm, creationism.

    And yes, it's "sad really" that the world is moving to a point where people don't judge others on the basis of their skin colour or sexual preference. How terrible, we should all be grabbing our pitchforks and purging the earth whilst shouting "unclean! unclean!" like the olden days.
    Edited by 1 at 25/03/11 @ 17:18

  • Moribundman #146 11 months ago

    Richard Littlejohn saying "You coudn't make it up" before proceeding to do so is as ironic as Fox News' "Fair and Balanced" tagline.

    I suggest skeggo and azix stick to these unchallenging sources of information and worldview and shy away from threatening computer games like Dragon Age...

  • coolbritannia #147 11 months ago

    I'm reminded of the Forever War books that end with humanity as a master race called homosex. I don't have a problem with gay characters in games, I'd rather they didn't hit on me in game as it would make me slightly uncomfortable as it would in real life. I don't have a problem with games asking my preference during character creation though.

  • darkmorgado #148 11 months ago

    People are calling you a bigot because you ARE a bigot.

    One thing that you definitelly cannot be accused of, however, is being "normal". Especially in the head.

  • ThePissartist #149 11 months ago

    @skeggo

    I love how you think the thread ends on your demand. This argument will continue until it's no longer acceptable for people like you to spam threads with homophobic abuse. Just as it's no longer acceptable to do the same about race now.

  • darkmorgado #150 11 months ago

    I don't know what's more pathetic: that skeggo is deluded enough to hold the opinions he does or that he seems to think he speaks on behalf of society.

  • intpleeus #151 11 months ago

    skeggo,

    It is normal for a proportion of humans to be serial killers, rapists, and peadophiles. It is not normal for a particular person to be any of these things. You do not seem to make a distinction between "normal" in the statistical sense, and "normal" the moral sense of good and proper. That equivocation has been the basis of all your comments about homosexuality, and it brings into question whether you have ever given serious thought to these matters. I understand why you might be uncomfortable with homosexual content in your entertainment -- you find it repulsive. Fair enough. But most people aren't as freaked out by gay penguins as you are, so Bioware probably isn't losing out on too many sales. If you had left the matter there, then you would likely have not generated such a backlash. Unfortunately, you have attempted to rationalise your aesthetic preferences as some kind of moral principle derived from the very fabric of nature itself. That really offends people ... and its really wrong to boot.

  • ExplodingClown #152 11 months ago

    Oh boy, I never expected this story to become trollbait.

    /eyeroll


    azix2,

    It seems you may be muddying the water by confusing evolution with moral relativism.

  • ThePissartist #153 11 months ago

    You're about as ignorant as it's possible to get.

    Thankfully, people with your views are a dying breed.

  • ThePissartist #154 11 months ago

    Yes, your friends. There is a whole world outside you know.

  • intpleeus #155 11 months ago

    skeggo,

    Abnormal is not synonymous with corrupted, deformed, or undeveloped, especially not in this context. Lifeforms adopt different strategies to survive, and sometimes the efficacy of a strategy depends on what others are doing. For example, being a carnivore is one survival strategy, but it can only be successful so long as most lifeforms are not carnivores. Once a particular ratio is exceeded, becoming a carnivore will be a poor strategy because there will not be enough for all the carnivores to eat. Likewise, there are certain frequencies of personality types in human populations, because each can exploit a particular ecological and social niche. If any one of these personality types becomes too prevalent, then the alternatives will be relatively more successful strategies. However, no strategy can completely eradicate any other, because their success partly depends on them not exceeding a critical ratio.

    In other words, even within a species there are pressures to exploit different survival strategies, and the persistence of homosexuality in human populations suggests that it may be just another strategy. But homosexuality is a strategy that can only persist in a small proportion of the population for obvious reasons. Many scholars have proposed hypotheses to explain how homosexuality can be adaptive in some cases, but its sheer persistence indicates that it is some kind of adaptation. That said, it is possible that homosexuality is a maladaption, like autism. In that case, the risk of homosexuality is probably a worthwhile trade-off for some other heritable trait, but who knows whether that will continue to hold in the future. Sometimes these apparent "freaks of nature" eventually become dominant -- just look at us crazy hairless apes who walk upright and talk.

    In any case, judging from you comments about camp men who "haven't fully become males", you seem to think there is some male (or female) essence or ideal that nature is striving to achieve, and you apparently identify it with what is most common or "normal". Here's the thing: it doesn't exist, and in the long run, what is average is a moving target. There is no natural ideal to compare homosexuals to and see them coming up short. All this is just an arbitrary whim in your head.

  • darkmorgado #156 11 months ago

    I disagree. Almost everyone I know in my town thinks the same as me. You're just an idiot.

    Hahaha I sincerely doubt it. Unless your town is populated exclusively by the BNP.

    Grow a brain cell and fuck off back to make-believe land.

  • darkmorgado #157 11 months ago

    By the way skeggo, are you even aware that the sort of language and views you are expressing could land you in court?

  • darkmorgado #158 11 months ago

    Actually skeggo, making offensive comments on the basis of sexuality and encouraging discrimination is illegal, yes, and that is exactly what you are doing.

  • darkmorgado #159 11 months ago

    Oh, and being gay is mainstream.

    Idiot.

  • darkmorgado #160 11 months ago

    Calling being gay "fucked up deviancy" in itself would be enough to get you in trouble with the police.

    And have you realised that a lot of gay people find heterosexuality just as repulsive and don't like how heterosexual culture is thrust in their face everywhere they go?

    People like you are exactly what is wrong with the world, seriously.

  • Retroid #161 11 months ago

    skeggo: "Do you get my point?"

    That you're an idiotic ignorant cunt? Yes, I do.

    Goodbye.

  • darkmorgado #162 11 months ago

    Ah, thanks dude.

    May as well delete most of the other comments now, they sort of lose any context without his idiot ramblings.

  • azix2 #163 11 months ago

    @explodingclown

    [link url=http://www.moral-rel ativism.com/
    ]http://www.moral-rel ativism.com/
    [/link]

    "Evolution and moral relativism go hand-in-hand, for evolution teaches that life is accidental, without meaning or purpose. Therefore, anything you do is OK, because it ultimately doesn't matter."

  • Retroid #164 11 months ago

    To people like azix2: it's quite simple. You see those fossils that've been dug up? That's evidence.

    Creationists have a magic book about an invisible sky daddy.

    OH BUT THEY'RE BOTH AS VALID AS EACHOTHER.

  • darkmorgado #165 11 months ago

    "Why does it have to be explicitly pointd out."

    It's not about making a huge song and dance about it, its about appreciating that simply pretending something doesn't exist doesn't mean it goes away. Like it or not, a loving homosexual relationship is every bit as valid as a loving heterosexual one - one is not morally superior to the other. And there is nothing wrong in giving players the choice. Whilst Bioware's rather hamfisted approach to romance (for either sex) is regrettable, at least their intentions were noble.

  • curryking3 #166 11 months ago

    I find the sexuality incredibly tacky in Bioware games. Mass Effect, Dragon Age, etc... I just find it poorly implemented and meaningless.

    This concern on the other hand is just veiled homophobia lol.

  • Retroid #167 11 months ago

    azix2: "my point is that if you believe in evolution then your moral compass also evolves. Your idea of right and wrong changes easily depending on what has been preached enough as right or wrong. To you there is no purpose in how things are as they are like that because of circumstances. hence there is no point arguing."

    Utter, utter bollocks.

    Morality has been observed in great apes. Are you going to suggest they have a holy book to learn those?

    The idea of only behaving well towards others because of a fear of an invisible man punishing me is beyond idiotic.

    Here's a link: http://ww w.nytimes.com/2007/03/20/scienc...
    Edited by 1 at 25/03/11 @ 21:54

  • M_of_the_sys #168 11 months ago

    God prefers atheists

  • BlinkeredAxis #169 11 months ago

    I had lesbian alien side-boob sex in Mass Effect one, and it was fabulous. Couldn't crack the same thing with Kelly in ME2, which is sad. These are supposed to be ROLE PLAYING games, so why not play a sexually different role, just to expand your mind?

    People are generally nice to each other by instinct, so that Ayn Rand stuff can go fuck itself. And creationism, which is bollocks.

    People are only nasty en masse when they are starving. Let's sort that out, and fuck over the selfish money-grabbers at the same time. with me?

  • Retroid #170 11 months ago

    @M_of_the_sys

    :D

  • sabbede #171 11 months ago

    Sure sex is fun regardless of orientation, but in this context its just one more example of how BioWare/EA ruined this game by trying to appeal to everyone.

    Dragon Age, being a slut won't make you popular. Nobody likes a slut for longer than it takes to put their pants back on. Just be yourself and people will love and respect you.
    Besides, its like throwing a sausage down the chunnel. No fun for anyone.

  • Inmediasress #172 11 months ago

    I never thoguht I see existentialism and moral philosophying on a videogame site.
    Now I'v seen everything.

  • ruddiger7 #173 11 months ago

    Its weird when your trying to build a tough badass team and you got 2 guys wanting to suck your dick.

  • ExplodingClown #174 11 months ago

    Ladies and gentlemen, a big hand for the spambots! Thread closed :)

  • fkh #175 11 months ago

    Edit: Sorry, didn`t see comment above mine regarding spambots. remove my comment if needed.

    I`m speaking only as a very casual gamer, who have not played DA2, and actually prefer nice and fluffy non-sexual Nintendo-games at a personal level, with an exception for Tingle and carpenters. Yet I also like freedom, so:

    I believe that both those who look at heterosexuality, and those who include homosexuality in what should be considered normal options in the game are making the same mistake: This is normal, that is not. It is only that the limit has been pushed a bit further out. In a gaming environment, since noone actually get hurt, there should be only one rule: Anything goes..Erase the limit between what is normal and what is not.Just the fantasy and personal moral limits of the one(s) making the game will set the boundaries. After that, the gamer set the boundaries as to how far he wants to go in the game, morally speaking.

    If we really are to be truly tolerant about what we should be able to portray in a game, then everything should be held at equal value, based on principle, no matter how far out we think about it at an emotional or intellectual level: Heterosexuality, homosexuality, bisexuality, bestiality, fetishes of every kind, sex with, animals, sex between family members, sex with or between children, sex with or between corpses, sex mixed with cannibalism. dogs and cats (Woof, Miaoo, Woof Woof, Miaoo Miiaoo, WOOOOf, MiIAAOO... Woof? No sorry), No matter how grotesque, no matter how far away from what we consider normal, if we are truly to be tolerant, than any limit should be broken. It is then up to the gamer how far he wants to push the boundaries while playing the game. "I can do that in this game, but I think it is immoral to do so. It dusgusts me. Oh, but it`s just a game. I can`t do it in real life, but I can in this game. Should I take this action or not?"

    We are talking about make-believe stories in a game, Since it is not real, the freedom to go all out in any direction, in this case sexually, should be just as normal in a game, as if you wrote a piece of fiction.

    Of course, in a conservative gaming-environment where a game has to be changed, so that you shall not be able to play as Al-Qaida against the Americans, or in this case, someone complains about homosexual advances (surely it would be more offensive if the gay character found you too ugly to hit on), these examples mentioned earlier will not yet be publishable as part of a commercial game. But I do believe that games, just like written fiction, has the possibility to break the boundaries of what is possible to create, maybe even more than the written word, since we are talking about an interactive visual medium, and therefore greater interaction inside the fictional reality being portrayed.

    We have not even begun to take advantage of what we can do with games when it comes to breaking the rules, and go all out in any direction, be it with sex, violence, or political ideas. DA2 is just a small start. In the meantime we make do with what we have. Now excuse me while I`m off to run around in Animal Crossing hitting my fellow villagers with a net.
    Edited by 1 at 26/03/11 @ 20:17

  • Raconteur #176 11 months ago

    Bioware are big fans of UFC.

  • kangarootoo #177 11 months ago

    Wow, this thread went a bit weird over the weekend. Predictable enough I guess.


    "It's like you're not allowed to object without everyone calling you a homophobe"

    Because that is what it means. Blame the dictionary if you want to blame something.


    And lets be clear, people that don't "believe" in evolution are simply idiots. Its as basic as that.