BioWare: don't be scared of RPGs

By Fred Dutton Published 25 February, 2011

You're ready, insists Dragon Age II dev.

Gamers shouldn't feel intimidated by the RPG genre, so says Dragon Age II developer BioWare. They might not know it, but they already have the necessary skills to jump in and have fun.

Discussing how the forthcoming fantasy sequel can bring in a wider audience, lead designer Mike Laidlaw told Gamasutra, "For me, I guess, fundamentally, there are more people who are ready to play RPGs than realise it."

He went on to explain how most gamers should have picked up the core principles of RPG gaming from more accessible titles.

"These are people who will play FarmVille. These are people who have shot enough people in the head that they've leveled up in Medal of Honor. They've gained XP and have received awards as a result. That's an RPG mechanic.

"They've played [Grand Theft Auto] San Andreas and they've run enough, and gotten buff enough, that their endurance is a higher. They've leveled," he added.

"It's honestly on RPGs to try to figure out how to take the mechanics that people are actually loving in other genres and say, 'No, no, no. We had those years ago, but we understand that they kind of were scary.'"

Laidlaw promised that even though BioWare was hoping to bringing in some newcomers with Dragon Age 2, it hasn't dumbed the game down.

"There were decisions that we made as a team that said, 'Okay, this is, I think, more welcoming.' Not 'dumbed down' or anything like that, but welcoming," he explained.

Dragon Age II arrives on PC, PlayStation 3 and Xbox 360 from 11th March. Take a look at Christian Donlan's recent hands-on preview for more on what to expect.

Picture of Fred.

About Fred Dutton

Fred Dutton is Eurogamer's US news editor, based in Washington DC.

Read more articles from Fred by visiting the Fred Dutton archive page.

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Comments (117) Latest comment 1 year ago

Comments for this article are now closed, but please feel free to continue chatting on the forum!

  • King_Edward #1 1 year ago

    Judging by the DA2 demo, it's Bioware who are scared of RPGs.

  • matrim83 #2 1 year ago

    I was gonna post a snarky comment about the "RPG" elements of DA2 and ME2 but I think KE pretty much nailed it. :D
    Edited by matrim83 at 25/02/11 @ 21:37

  • Stop-gap #3 1 year ago

    The title made me think it was going to be someone telling Bioware not to be scared of RPGs.
    Not tried the demo yet in all fairness, but I haven't got high hopes for its RPGness.

  • onestepfromlost #4 1 year ago

    Wow guess any comment i was going to make has been covered :p but yeah with every game it seems they move further from RPG to action games. I know its hard to hold anything up against baldurs gate. I guess it all about the cost of making a huge top end game with the money they spend on it they hasve to make it appeal to the broadest audience possible to recoup the money.

  • Timotei #5 1 year ago

    Reports on the demo haven't been great. Dragon Effect 2, whilst not quite syncing.

  • Desheep #6 1 year ago

    I can get plenty of beat'em ups or action rpgs already. What the market lacks is enough classic RPGs like Baldurs Gate, NWN or... dare i say it... Dragon Age 1.

    Why the fuck did you do this, Bioware?

  • Feanor #7 1 year ago

    After the fairly poor sales performance of Mass Effect 2 (it sold less copies in 2010 than Fable 3 in the US despite coming out 9 month earlier) I think Bioware are a little desperate.

  • grayn #8 1 year ago

    Surely if people are scared by RPGs, it's up to Bioware to adjust to what they want, not the people adjusting to what Bioware want them to play.

  • hiddenranbir #9 1 year ago

    Wow Bioware...why would I be afraid of something you no longer make.

  • levitate #10 1 year ago

    How is the demo anyway? Worth downloading?

  • ChthonicEcho #11 1 year ago

    Are you still living in the 90s, BioWare? RPGs are no longer the dreaded genre, and the fact that it's heavily borrowed from by every single genre out there (including racing games) speaks volumes. One of the most anticipated games this year is Skyrim - a bloody RPG. Nobody is 'scared' of them any more.

  • immateriaux #12 1 year ago

    "Judging by the DA2 demo, it's Bioware who are scared of RPGs."

    Rare on here that the first comment is all that needs to be said but that certainly nailed it right there. Repeat x 1000.

  • Timotei #13 1 year ago

    "They've played [Grand Theft Auto] San Andreas and they've run enough, and gotten buff enough, that their endurance is a higher. They've leveled"

    Hate to break it to you, but this was an aspect of SA that was mostly hated. RPGs do not, in any way, fit in to the GTA universe.

  • Dannyboy1100 #14 1 year ago

    It would be fine if it wasnt for that damn wheel

  • azix2 #15 1 year ago

    RPG elements was a natural inclusion in other genre. Makes no sense they avoid that kind of progression in games.

  • uknortherner2000 #16 1 year ago

    I'm not scared of RPGs, BioWare, so let me know when you plan to make one.

    What I am scared of, however is your draconian DRM that requires me to beg for permission to play your pseudo-RPGs every few days. But hey, The DRM-free Witcher 2's out soon, so I guess that solves my problem.
    Edited by uknortherner2000 at 25/02/11 @ 22:16

  • OnlyMe #17 1 year ago

    Talk about throwing rocks in a glass house.

  • ShadowMountain #18 1 year ago

    Am I the only Eurogamer read who liked the demo? The combat was EXACTLY the same as dragon age only more responsive and faster. Watch a sped up vid of DA: O combat and its the same as DA 2. You tank with the tank, switch to rogue, stun enemies, then switch to mage or warrior to make use of the added damaged effect bonus etc etc.

  • dagas #19 1 year ago

    They should be ahppy for all the RPG fans they have. Why try to go after the Starbuck drinking MacBook Air douches? Not every game can be mass market and sell 10m copies. What's wrong with 2 million nerds?

  • Mister-Wario #20 1 year ago

    "Surely if people are scared by RPGs, it's up to Bioware to adjust to what they want, not the people adjusting to what Bioware want them to play".

    An interesting point. However, you have to be careful not to swing between extremes. On one hand you can have potentially intimidating titles like Final Fantasy, but then on the other you can get really easy stuff, or titles that aren't real RPGs in the sense that we know them. I think developers have to be able to challenge customers, to get them to try experiences that are more complex and ultimately more enjoyable. A battle that requires skill and forethought will be more satisfying than one that requires me to hit X repeatedly for ten minutes.

    Perhaps the key is to have RPGs of varying complexity, which is what we have to an extent. We have games like Paper Mario and Eternal Sonata, while at the same time having games like Final Fantasy.

  • ShadowMountain #21 1 year ago

    I find it strange that people are moaning about lack of 'rpg' in DA: 2 yet game of the week is another shooter instead of peak-of-the-genre tactical rpg Tactics Ogre. Just an observation...
    Edited by ShadowMountain at 25/02/11 @ 23:57

  • olionajudah #22 1 year ago

    it is not the RPG I fear

    it is the boring combat and unappealing gameplay mechanics I find most terrifying.

    Tried the demo.
    felt dismayed.
    In a world where Demon's Souls had never existed
    [and thus, I was none the wiser]
    i would probably still never buy it
    and certainly never play through it

    but that's just me.

  • Tryhard #23 1 year ago

    "Judging by the DA2 demo, it's Bioware who are scared of RPGs."

    Cut that in stone and put it through Biowares letterbox.

  • dirtysteve #24 1 year ago

    @King_Edward, I think you beat a good many of us to it. That's really the subtext I get from this article, that Bioware are dumping the traditional approach.
    Now it's a bit disingenuous to moan at this purely for it' own sake, as it's often these very forums that cry out for innovation. I will say that having played the demo, that I'm not convinced the new approach will be successful, it's a little bit too lightweight.

  • immateriaux #25 1 year ago

    What are you on about ShadowMountain, popular genre has most popular game shocker? What the hell is strange about that? Do you get a big surprise when a big ball of fire rises into the sky each morning?
    Edited by immateriaux at 26/02/11 @ 12:48

  • PseudoDuck #26 1 year ago

    @ShadowMountain

    I liked the demo as well. It's certainly not as laboured combat wise as DA:o is but it's not been "dumbed down" as much as Mass Effect 2 was.

    Only thing I did notice (which may still be in the full game) is that there was apparently no option to enable turn-based combat if you want to. Though the "stacking" of abilities is still there - the tactics of DA:o can still be used. The main RPG elements are still there and I can't understand why some people are almost frightened that making an RPG more accessible somehow means it's not an RPG anymore. The skill trees and the inventory management are still there. If you want depth then it's there if you look for it.

  • cw- #27 1 year ago

    @Feanor
    After the fairly poor sales performance of Mass Effect 2 (it sold less copies in 2010 than Fable 3 in the US despite coming out 9 month earlier) I think Bioware are a little desperate.

    Maybe I didn't google and search deep enough, but a quick google showed ME2 selling over 2 million copies in its opening week and Fable 3 taking 7 weeks to do that number

  • silversun #28 1 year ago

    Just tried out the demo on pc ,i will be getting game on pc.
    Can't really comment on how it feels on consoles but i was fairly impressed with the demo as it was fairly long but flew by really quickly which is ussally a good sign that the game feels not too restrictive.
    demo makes me want go back play dragon age 1 which i didnt get to far into, could be worth trying out a bit before dragon age 2 next month.
    ive played the older neverwinter nights game on pc and dragon age 2 game flows alot better combat wise than that, but still stays true to the type of games bioware has made in the past.
    Also looks like its well acted , the voice work was very good.

    Been thnking about demo some more since yesterday and put some postive comments down but also think i should add what i did not like about the demo.
    the cinematic approach to the demo seemed a bit over the top to be honest the first section was brilliant then it skipped forwards to another part of the game.
    the ending of the demo was lol , my choices meant i might get some action lol this is something about games that is completly unrealistic and seemed to be put in for a certain type of player i think , i know bioware will make a quality game though so it does not bother me to much. overalll though i liked the demo.
    Edited by silversun at 26/02/11 @ 19:14

  • ShadowMountain #29 1 year ago

    @immateriaux: Cut me some slack dude, its a Friday evening, at time of the week in which I am sure even you are not at your most logical and coherent. That said I have deleted the other comment. Now lets be friends.
    With Love
    ShadowMountain

  • Gromit #30 1 year ago

    I have just bought DAO : ultimate edition and it is taking up every second of spare time I have. It's not my usual type of game, but I have been pleasantly surprised.

    Highly recommended @ £17.99 for someone fancying something different.

  • polaris70 #31 1 year ago

    Well all I can say is that Dragon Age 2 is a complete button masher after playing the demo. Assassins Creed 2 had more depth to the combat and far better animations (no Ninjas). Mass Effect was a superb game that I ploughed 3 playthroughs into it, Mass Effect 2 was more like Gears of War 2 and I still haven't got past 4 hours. Sorry, but if I want to hear about RPG development I'll listen to Bethesda.

  • metalangel #32 1 year ago

    This'll be a fun comments section over the weekend.

  • mandella #33 1 year ago

    Give me my isometric view back, you Bioware c***s.

    By the way, I guess it's just coincidence that this guy is appealing to people who play 3 hugely popular game franchises (Farmville, GTA, Modern Warfare). Quite obvious what was the drive behind producing this game.
    Edited by mandella at 26/02/11 @ 01:47

  • Dannyboy1100 #34 1 year ago

    Anyone who prefers da2 fighting to da:o is retarded and should go play some jrpgs

    I prefered da:o because of graphics, game mechanics, being able to see what you are actually about to say, you had a choice of character, also health potions now have cds, WTF? And abilities have about 5 sec cds instead of 60 secs... They're clearly just catering to the noobs who want some flashy gameplay. They might as well be making jrpgs

  • Genji #35 1 year ago

    An RPG touched me inappropriately when I was a small lad. So you could understand why I'd be scared of them.

  • KiLlerKnight #36 1 year ago

    Don't be scared, because DA2 isn't a RPG.

  • Genji #37 1 year ago

    Has anyone here actually played through DA2 yet?

    No? Just the demo?

    Then honestly, I think it's a bit early to judge whether it's an RPG or not.

  • riz23 #38 1 year ago

    It's very patronising to come out with crap like 'you've levelled up in Medal of Honor so you're ready to play an RPG' (even though he really meant CoD but towed the company line). Too much listening to Marketing Fuckheads and not enough faith in what you love.

  • TOOTR #39 1 year ago

    Completely agree with Genji here - If you are a DA:o fan I wouldn't judge DA2 combat too harshly by the demo.

    A lot of you haven't read the article properly, haven't understood the targeted purpose of the demo and have missed the point.

    From Bioware's comments they have obviously tried to target a bigger market by 'easing' them into the game. The demo is primarily for these people who are not 'core' (for want of a better word) RPG players.

    We can all agree or disagree that the way they have gone about it is poor or not but that is obviously their intent.

    I read a Bioware quote that they were aware that a huge percentage of DA:o didn't go on to play for more than four hours and they wanted to make the first few hours more welcoming.

    I have read some excellent previews on other sites for DA2 - and very happily they have confirmed that the combat mechanics are just as deep as DA:o but it's overlaid by a flashier interface. I personally can't wait for the full game.

    You could argue that a demo should appeal to everyone - newbies and RPG core...or what's the point?

    That's a fair view....but if the game gets outstanding reviews a lot of the RPG core will pick it up regardless of the demo.

    I wasn't really enamored with what People can Fly were going for with the Bulletstorm demo....but that's another story...

  • gjgjg #40 1 year ago

    uh oh, I've not played the demo yet but after reading those bioware statements and the comments it seems dumbing down is the order of the day.
    Shame cos the headline makes me think bioware were tring to dumb up the masses instead lol

  • strangerism #41 1 year ago

    now according to bioware RPG should be played by 2years old, why not, maybe the monkeys too if they have some sort of currency to trade.

    Nice philosophy am seeing. I remember when role play games where synonymous of complexity (as limitless), imagination and ponderous thinking.

    BIOWARE there is none of these things in the games you are making now!



  • intpleeus #42 1 year ago

    What is an RPG? I do not know, seriously. For many, it seems an RPG is just a game with esoteric game mechanics, tedious inventory management, confusing menus, cumbersome controls, and some kind of turn-based combat. The fewer people who know how to enjoy it the better, right?

    I really don't care whether Dragon Age II is "really" an RPG; I just care that it is an entertaining adventure. Sometimes it is better to judge a game by what it aspires to be, rather than what you wish it was.

  • Jason2444 #43 1 year ago

    Gee, why am i not surprised at the negativity of EUROgamer when bioware makes something FUN

    I'm sorry the combat isn't a boring potion/heal fest anymore

    "It's not an RPG"? Really? Well lets see

    Does it have leveling? Yes
    Does it have an inventory? Yes
    Are there stats? Yes
    Are there abilities? Yes
    Is there choice? Yes

    Now why don't you all use that great european education you geniuses are always ranting about and tell me, what about this game isn't an RPG?

    OH YOU CAN'T PLAY A DWARF. Go play WoW, you losers

  • NewbieZilla #44 1 year ago

    ".... but we understand that they kind of were scary.'"

    Lolwut?

  • Sharzam #45 1 year ago

    Well Bioware if we want RPGs we simply go to actually RPG developers like Obsidian and CD Projeckt, ie not you and your 'action' games.

    Although i will say that defining genres is tricky and i can see the points of the couple above me i believe there are certain things to a RPG and bioware recent games just dont 'feel' like it. No it doesnt have to be turn based but it does require some thought and just not aiming and shooting. Same goes with moral choices in a true RPG you have many choices which are sometimes blured as your playing a role rather than playing a game. In the DAII demo it is a simple select a different coloured icon where as in DA:o you had a few options not nessarily good or bad.
    Edited by Sharzam at 26/02/11 @ 09:32

  • ExplodingClown #46 1 year ago

    Fantasy settings are probably a bigger obstacle to mass-market adoption of RPGs than any question about the mechanics. Talking about elves and wizards will still earn you a sizeable quantity of pitying looks in broader society, whereas hip-hop gangstas, soldiers etc are generally unremarkable, and Farmville is cutesy enough to get a pass.

    I'd buy another Jade Empire.

  • MMMMMM7 #47 1 year ago

    I just finished the demo and I can say that I liked it.
    The combat is more responsive and fluent than DAO.
    For my taste it is improved.

    There is a difficult fight against a huge demon like creature
    in the middle of the demo. This part although in the beginning,
    is a bit frustrating because I lost many times, graduallly got my into
    the spirit of the game by repeating the battle again and again.

    It was like taking a lesson on how to handle tacticts in the game,
    positioning your mage, warriors in the right positions and swapping between
    them to give them support by pausing the game in the appropriate situations.

    In the end I really enjoyed this battle because it challenged me
    and I learned a lot about how the combat and tactical mechanics work.
    I aslo liked the clean and user friendly menus for upgrading skills and
    attributes. What I am not particularly fond of are the graphics which
    give you a feelliining of emptiness in the environment. But still in comparison
    with DAO they are improved.

    I can only say positive things for this demo and that it entertained
    me a lot and I liked it more than DAO. I 'm looking forward to play the
    full game.

  • TitusCrow #48 1 year ago

    BioWare are dead to me now. It was a travesty whatever it was they put out.. if this is RPG count me out.

  • Gastrian #49 1 year ago

    Post deleted at 17:56:43 13-04-2012

  • Miths #50 1 year ago

    I loved the DA2 demo (PC, but I've been meaning to give the PS3 version a try as well - though I'm sure I'll be buying the PC version of the game).
    Or more specifically I loved the combat (I tried all classes) - and the voice acted protagonist (as with Mass Effect I preferred the female voice actor, she's no Jennifer Hale, but she did a pretty good job).

    I might have gotten hooked on the RPG genre back in the days of games like BG1+2, Planescape: Torment and Fallout 1+2, but that was a decade ago and I prefer a faster pace these days.
    I played the PC version of DA:o) for around 20 hours back when it was originally released, but I grew increasingly bored as the hours passed - although admittedly not just with the old fashioned combat but also a storyline and side quest that just didn't quite manage to keep my interest. And the mute protagonist stood out like a sore thumb among all the voice acted NPCs, something I had a very hard time accepting after particularly the Mass Effect games.
    Edited by Miths at 26/02/11 @ 11:03

  • darkmorgado #51 1 year ago

    @MMMMMM7

    You sound like a company plant. "clean and user friendly interface", "it taught me tactics and positioning". F*ck me. Noone actually speaks like that outside of marketing departments.

  • Zeliard #52 1 year ago

    "I really don't care whether Dragon Age II is "really" an RPG; I just care that it is an entertaining adventure. Sometimes it is better to judge a game by what it aspires to be, rather than what you wish it was."

    It aspires to be a dumbed-down RPG meant to appeal to the FarmVille, GTA and Modern Warfare crowd (per the dev's own words), and it is being judged as such. The original Dragon Age was marketed as Baldur Gate's spiritual successor, for fuck's sake.

  • KiLlerKnight #53 1 year ago

    Ok I won't be scared of RPG's, but I am scared of you Bioware. So scared I actually cancelled my preorder of DA2.
    Thanks.

  • Abraxus #54 1 year ago

    Don't be afraid of RPG's? Tell you what, the majority of derps that this game is aimed at would shit themselves if confronted with a real RPG.

  • kongzi #55 1 year ago

    I just plain don't like fantasy settings.. If bioware thinks i'm scared of menus and levelling up, they're wrong. It's boredom through and through.

  • richyroo #56 1 year ago

    But Captain Janeway is in it! Im sold

  • MMMMMM7 #57 1 year ago

    @darkmogrado
    I think this moment someone in Bioware is going to be laughing
    a lot.

    If I where a company plant I think I would be clever enough
    to disguisse myself and not use such phrases.

    No, believe me, on my word of honor I sincerly enjoyed
    the demo. I started playing the demo and after the first battle
    I said "Oh another mindless hack and slash game again.''

    But when I reached the part that I described in my aformentioned
    comment I discovered that tacticts play a great role in the outcome
    of a battle. I liked that a lot and enjoyed that part of the game.

  • Roamer #58 1 year ago

    Just seems to be really stupid of Bioware to be alienating its core fans with statements like these. The casual fans never read news like this anyway, so why say it? It only angers your existing fanbase, which, since the first game sold extremely well for an RPG, is quite large.

    Being one of a few really deep western RPG's was the main reason for it selling over 3 million on consoles alone. Do not remove its main appeal.

  • Murton #59 1 year ago

    If EG has moderators they'd have closed this thread on comment 1, nothing more needed to be said really.

    Usually I get quite passionate about RPGs and the way that Bioware and Bethesda, the last of the "old guard" in this genre have dumbed down to the point that their games can barely be called RPGs anymore, but nothing I could say here would come close to King Edward's post.

    "Judging by the DA2 demo, it's Bioware who are scared of RPGs."

    Classic.

  • djed #60 1 year ago

    And Baldur's Gate pissed all over Dragon Age 1 anyway.

  • AdamAsunder #61 1 year ago

    I think most people have the ability to mash A.

  • immateriaux #62 1 year ago

    I just wish they were honest about it all and we could move on. There's space on the market for good RPGs - this thread has plenty of examples of people's passion for a complex, enriched experience in a game. They are muddying the waters by producing a shooter styled game with some rpg mechanics added (exactly like the games they now patently admire) and yet stubbornly attempting to hold on to the claim of making a classic RPG. It confuses people - people who like the demo, or the full game, may then think they like RPGs and get a right wallop when a real RPG comes out and they buy it, get lost in the complexity and start moaning. All causing unneccessary negativity against producers of the genuine article which in turns erodes cases for future development.

    Just fuck off Bioware with these nonsense rpg claims - you want to make a simple, toned down cross between GTA and Farmville set in a fantasy styled world, fine. Really. But be at least honest about it for the good of the genre you once helped define.

  • Genji #63 1 year ago

    I take it from the -6 next to my previous comment, that there are 6 people here that have played through the full game of DA2 already!

    I'd love to know what they think!

  • Genji #64 1 year ago

    Also, I really, really don't like the phrase "dumbed down". I think it's incredibly pretentious and arrogant, as if only stupid people could like a game like this. It's fine to prefer a game with more complexity - although I don't really associate "complexity" with STATS, MORE STATS, like some others seem to - but please stay away from comments about intelligence.

    It makes you look, well, dumb.

    (For the record, I loved the Baldur's Gate games, Planescape: Torment and all that. And I would love it if they made something similar to it. Dragon Age was good. Not *as* good, but still good. And this might be too, although I'm not going to judge it yet - "pure RPG" or no.)
    Edited by Genji at 26/02/11 @ 14:50

  • The-Bodybuilder #65 1 year ago

    Haven't read other comments, but I'm sure someone's already made the point I'm about to make.
    The problem with the majority of RPGs is that most people hate the middle-earthiness fantasy worlds. Most aren't fans of dragons and elves and warlocks.

    There's a reason why people have taken to Mass Effect, and not just because it's awesome. It's because there are no elves.

  • The-Bodybuilder #66 1 year ago

    Just read the other comments, and.....O_O
    Didn't expect this comments section to go the way it has. Makes me previous points worthless and dare I say, will get negs.

    I still think ME (and ME2) are awesome, whether the crowd label it as an rpg or not.
    Edited by The-Bodybuilder at 26/02/11 @ 15:55

  • geordiek #67 1 year ago

    Why all the fuss about DA2? Skyrim is out this year.

  • X3Entente #68 1 year ago

    if you want to play dragon age 2 now then simply play dynasty warriors

  • CaptainKid #69 1 year ago

    I have played RPG's.
    Baldur's Gate 2, Oblivion, Fallout 3 and others.

    I still find the Dragon Age 2 demo a bit intimidating though.
    There is a lot of information at once. RPG stats continously on screen (do I need this info or can I ignore it?), having to level up multiple characters with again stats and agilities and whatever and I can't even read the tips because the game loads to fast.

    Fallout 3 does a good job with providing a little information about what each stat does when I level up.
    I'm not the type of player who goes on the internet and looks up the perfect build, I play casual.

    Sorry Bioware but if you want to make the game accessible to the average player I think you didn't do a very good job.
    Plus the controls suck ass on PC.
    Edited by CaptainKid at 26/02/11 @ 20:14

  • Raiten #70 1 year ago

    No offence to any "real rpg" fans, but reading trough this thread paints a clear picture on why western rpg genre hasn't moved anywhere in few decades, we're still stuck in the same old medieval settings, wizards, dragons pointy ear elfies and what not.
    Honestly, everytime i get a new "real" western rpg in my hands, i feel like i've played it countless times before, maybe because i have. I guess us westerners just don't want any changes in our clichéd overused rpg styles, if a company wishes to try something new, they'll be hanged by their balls by the d&d community for destroying their beloved pointy ear elfies.
    We love to lash out at jrpgs and their features, while giving praise to western rpgs using the same or worse features, i guess that'd make us the largest hypocrites in the world, but hey what do i know, at least jrpg genre changes unlike wrpg genre, which is stuck in a infinite loop of repetition.

  • ExplodingClown #71 1 year ago

    @Raiten: Fair point, but JRPGs have their share of sins too. Forsaking Tolkien cliches for bishie boys with improbably floppy/spiky hair and ludicrously large swords (hello Dr. Freud) and their yaoi-lite rivalries is just trading one straightjacket for another.

  • Demiath #72 1 year ago

    Anyone who has actually played more than the first few battles of the DA2 demo (i.e. from the second Ogre battle onwards) knows that Dragon Age 2's actual gameplay is virtually identical to Dragon Age: Origins...provided you play it the old-fashioned tactical pause-and-play/party-based way, that is. The hack'n slash approach has been made much more viable, for sure, and that's what all the "casual gamers can play this too" marketing newspeak is all about. But anyone claiming that Bioware has somehow magically changed the core gameplay in any meaningful way (as played on the PC with whatever difficulty level has friendly fire etc. etc.) is simply arguing against the ample and frankly irrefutable empirical evidence provided by the demo. That is not being faithful to the spirit of old school RPGs, that's just blind and self-destructive fanboyism.

    It's true that Bioware has once again screwed up the marketing by focusing so heavily on how accessible their latest title is (if it isn't Marilyn Manson it's bound to be something else...), but that doesn't take away anything from the game in question. The only thing being "dumbed-down" here is the ability of some people to think coherently and make accurate statements about the external world outside their minds, which are as closed off as any dank old dungeon in Eye of the Beholder or Wizardry 6...

  • Raconteur #73 1 year ago

    I can see the forum reviews of Dragon Age II now...
    1st Reviewer: "Hey I can bash the controller button 64 times a minute"
    2nd Reviewer: "DUUUUUUUUUDE! You're a noob! I can bash the button 67 times a minute! I ROCK AT RPGs!"

    and so on and so forth.

  • Tryhard #74 1 year ago

    I guess Bioware was feeling sorry for the A button on the xbox controller.I wonder how Divinty 2,Dragon Knight Saga would make the crowd Bioware are aiming for feel.It had me scratching my head and was more rewarding for it.Recommend it to everyone who is seeing the DA2 demo for what it is.

  • Raiten #75 1 year ago

    @ExplodingClown, i won't even dispute that, i'm aware jrpgs have their fair share of problems/repetiotions/clichés etc. but at least those games enjoy far greater freedom in creativity/imagination, which is something wrpg genre has lacked for a long long long long time being stuck in a certain mold, rather my whole point is, wrpg genre won't realy move anywhere untill the devs and especialy gamers are more willing to detatch from the oh so favoured d&d/tolkienish styles. Like with the small changes bioware is attempting, in this case regarding combat, instead of having positive feedback for trying different aproach, they're more or less getting lynched for trying something different.

  • suicidal_penguins #76 1 year ago

    @Demiath, people have already outlined on here the, "empirical", differences between the two games, in defence of their argument - the fact that you seem to have failed to follow that might explain why the dumbed down nature of DA appeals to you though.

  • oerhoert #77 1 year ago

    Leveling isn't anywhere close to being unique to RPGs anymore. CityVille has it in droves, for goodness' sake.

  • skyrend #78 1 year ago

    I'm not sure why they took the isometric view out. Isn't this game still based on the same engine as DAO? Also, giving rogue a group stun potion SKILL is dumbing the game down (although I didn't mind the tele-backstab tbh). Also, what's with the nickel & dime DLC's? This just discourages day one purchase even more.

    Witcher 2 pre-ordered. DA2, I'll wait for the Ultimate Edition, if I even bother with it at all.
    Edited by skyrend at 27/02/11 @ 01:24

  • Snake_2011 #79 1 year ago

    games not out & your all masters of it. I will judge it when I have the full game.

  • Gromit #80 1 year ago

    I'm just going to play this one safe:

    "I hate the demo"

    "Bioware sold out"

    "I hate Call Of Duty"

    Hopefully now I am now accepted among the "Cool School of Free Thought".....

  • coldfoot #81 1 year ago

    I like how a JRPG has evolved for the better in Demon's Souls (still the best RPG of this generation for me) and western RPG's have been dumbed down like ME2 and Dragon Age. Bioware has nothing to worry about, since the last true RPG they made was years ago with Neverwinter Nights.

  • Megalodon #82 1 year ago

    Gromit - exactly. It seems like every RPG player these days who wishes to be a member of the 'hardcore RPG crowd', whatever that is, needs only bashing any new RPG game that comes out for not being 'Real RPGs', and voila! He's now an honored hardcore RPG player that goes to sleep with his d20 under the pillow, just in case.

    Just because a game doesn't use a clunky 1998-era top-down interface doesn't all of a sudden make it an action game, and it certainly doesn't negate it from being a RPG, just because you've said so.

    You guys are a bunch of sorry, unreasonable and ungrateful little whiners which will never be satisfied. You're so vocal and abnoxious, yet you are but a small percentage of the people who buy these games. Put a sock in it already, and get a frickin' hobby.

  • Gunship #83 1 year ago

    @Gromit - do you really think that people skeptical about the substantial shift in direction of Dragon Age 2 are just doing it to be cool?

    It has nothing to do with the dialog wheel, or the voiced protagonist, or the reduction in skills, or the lack of isometric view, or the lack of character customization, or the shortening of the game from 60+ hours to 30+ hours, or the inability to change armor, or the cartoonish art style, or the rip off DLC available on day 1...

    OR THE FACT THAT BRENT KNOWLES, LEAD DESIGNER OF DA1, LEFT BIOWARE BECAUSE HE DID NOT LIKE WHERE EA WERE GOING WITH DA2?
    Edited by Gunship at 27/02/11 @ 09:37

  • michaelius #84 1 year ago

    @Megalodon - altrough I know you are only trolling I'll tell you that there are games hardcore RPG crowd awaits - Witcher 2, Deus Ex 3, Dungeon Siege III.

  • Murton #85 1 year ago

    "Just because a game doesn't use a clunky 1998-era top-down interface doesn't all of a sudden make it an action game, and it certainly doesn't negate it from being a RPG, just because you've said so"

    I refer you, and any other fool that thinks RPG fans want to return to the 90s to Gunship's post. What we want is for the game mechanics that define the RPG genre to make a return, most so-called RPGs are sorely lacking in all of the things that Gunship listed and some, such as Mass Effect and now Dragon Age are even doing away with equipment/inventory management, which was the last RPG mechanic still being sported properly.

    I suggest anyone else who wants to enter the RPG debate first take the time to play or at least read about a proper RPG to see what's what. Morrowind, System Shock 2, Deux Ex (original one) Dungeon Siege, Diablo, Neverwinter Nights, KotOR. Play these games and compare to Dragon Age, Mass Effect, Fallout 3 and Fable and you'll see precisely why RPG fans feel the way they do, because RPGs, proper RPGs, simply aren't made any more.

  • Dangerous_Dan #86 1 year ago

    Games that were well received or at least not under attack by the "real RPG" gamers:

    Mass Effect 1 (not 2), The Witcher 1, Planescape Torment, Fallout 1 & 2, Dragon Age, Baldurs Gate 1 & 2, Vampire - Bloodlines, KOTOR 1+2,...

    Is a Mass Effect 1 as hardcore as a Baldurs Gate? No... but it was accepted and even liked. Why? Because the name of that game was not Baldurs Gate 3.

    It's the trickster move of using an established name and changing the gameplay to more mass appeal that makes some gamers angry. For some people great games are more than some entertainment, like a good book they really liked they have some form of bond with it and fond memories.
    Bioware is obviously on the hunt for more buyers and that's what influenced them in their design decisions.
    The above list contains either new entries or the sequel was quite on par and in essence similar to the predecessor.

    My guess, on the long run this will lead on a route of stagnation. If they found the right tuning for maximum appeal they will not change it. See the CoD formula. Things that don't change are slowly dying and this will give room for new things. But it's not all that bleak, there are still other RPG games around and my feeling is that the coming years will bring a lot of innovative games in the PC sector, maybe not that polished but a fresh breeze.
    Edited by Dangerous_Dan at 27/02/11 @ 10:25

  • Vedfolner #87 1 year ago

    I'm not scared of RPG's. Okay, maybe a little. But it's Biowares DLC-policy that keeps me awake at night.

  • domoslaf #88 1 year ago

    I honestly don't know where the bashing of DA2 demo comes from - for me, despite an action game trapping (which is very superficial, to be honest), it looks and plays pretty much identically to DA1. The only difference is that you have to constantly press a button for a character to attack, which is a bit annoing really, but nothing game breaking (though I do hope they include a "I press a button to issue an attack order and then the character continues to attack automatically" option in the full version).
    Edited by domoslaf at 27/02/11 @ 11:43

  • Tryhard #89 1 year ago

    I think what we are trying to say here is you can complete the game outside of the cutscenes and chat by having a monkey spam the A button and pushing the left stick forward on xbox.This is a hack and slash loot game,and not an RPG.

  • BuddyChrist #90 1 year ago

    You can change the name of the hero, and pick the colour of his shorts. Say hello to the RPG of today..... Bring on Skyrim, this shits gone runny

  • makeamazing #91 1 year ago

    I played a few hours of DA, but then they brought out lots of DLC for it, and suddenly started looking at all the games i had to play, and thought, i think i will wait for GOTY edition, so traded it in, and am awaiting the game getting alittle cheaper, then will be getting it. Probably do the same with 2 considering i didnt even get half way through 1 yet.

    But its not as RPG as i would like, same thing could be said for ME2 to be honest, as they seemed to get a little more dumbed down in 2 compared to 1 (dont get me wrong, still love it)... I think Baldurs gate is still my favourite RPG, FO3 showed how it could be done in a non isometric way (even if bugs and Vegas has killed my enthusiasm for it right now).

  • immateriaux #92 1 year ago

    @Gromit, No, that's the "Vacuous School of Sarcasm" you've gone for. The School of Free Thought requires a bit more effort on your part, like reading the arguments people have actually written here in defence of their position

  • Collymilad #93 1 year ago

    I love all these people who expect RPGs to just stagnate.

    Every time they streamline the experience, removing cumbersome, needless crap - people try and make out they are stripping away what makes it an RPG. It's ridiculous.

    Bioware make the best RPG's in the world and thank god they've actually brought them somewhat into the 21st century, and tough shit on the people who moan about everything (go play a tabletop game if you want all the boring shit)

    Sorry but it's true. As a wise man (forget his name) once said on here "You don't have to be wading through pages of text and menu's all the time for something to be an RPG"

    Also, how exactly is DA2 anymore "hack n slashy" than the first one? Because you have to keep pressing A rather than just doing it once then the character auto-attacking? Or is it because the attacks actually happen more quickly and seamlessly now? Guess the fact it plays better must mean it's dumbed down. Except it's not, if you actually take the time to look it appears to be just as complex as DA1 but now it flows better. Same for the dialogue trees, another thing I'm sure people have bitched about.

    Basically, they still make RPGs - but it's the age old problem of people getting attached to something exactly as it is in a certain time period - then making out improvements (nobody likes change) are changing the game into something else. They're not. Basically there's nothing in "classic" RPG's (I'm talking about gameplay elements, things that can be quantified, not things based on opinion e.g. story) that's missing from modern ones that wasn't superfluous, clunky or overcomplicated.
    Edited by Collymilad at 27/02/11 @ 15:11

  • Napo2k #94 1 year ago

    "Has anyone here actually played through DA2 yet?

    No? Just the demo? "

    @Genji

    I have tested it, and me and all my colleagues agree that things have been seriously eased. Way too much. Yes, skill trees are still there, and there is something that might resemble to inventory management... but it's achingly closer to a God of War with more lore and backstory work put into it, than to an RPG as good as DA:o was.

    Of course, people may like it, and feel that it's more accessible, and it's obvious that it's intentional... but I honestly don't like it, and would not call it RPG, specially after seeing what Bioware is capable of. Disappointment. That's the feeling. It will get good numbers on the critics, but after DA:o is a great step backwards.

    "It's not an RPG"? Really? Well lets see

    Does it have leveling? Yes
    Does it have an inventory? Yes
    Are there stats? Yes
    Are there abilities? Yes
    Is there choice? Yes "

    @Jason2444

    It has leveling, but so does CoD Multiplayer, just to put an example.
    It has inventory... hm, well, yes, just a little bit.
    Are there stats? Not as influential as DA:o but yes it does.
    Are there abilities? Yes, but once you discover the three key abilities of the mage there won't be anymore.
    Is there choice? The fake illusion of choice they want us to believe, but it's not Bioware's fault, happens in every game, because the story plot is fixed, so there is choice, but not a lot of consequences.

    Now,

    All those things do not define an RPG per se, I think there is much more to it. Look at Final Fantasy (but the good ones, like FFVII), it has all that, but also has a great story, interesting characters, a huge world, lots of things to do... I understand the move that Bioware wants to do, but I don't like it, and thus I don't think DA2 is a good game, nor an RPG either.
    Edited by Napo2k at 27/02/11 @ 15:18

  • domoslaf #95 1 year ago

    Wait, what? No inventory management?

    God damn you Bioware!

    That part I will miss. But still, saying that it can be completed by just pressing one button? Isn't it a bit too early for that? From the demo combat looked pretty much identical to DA1 to me, with skill/party/tactics management and optional switching between characters (and issuing orders for them without leaving the pause, finally!), so I dunno. I still have faith.
    Edited by domoslaf at 27/02/11 @ 15:26

  • immateriaux #96 1 year ago

    @collymilad
    Half life has been out a while, if the release another they should, extending you argument, streamline it and take out aiming guns altogether. Be far more accessible that way.
    And MS Flight has an awful lot if cumbersome crap, rudders, flaps, what's that all about? Streamline that too. Press the A button fly straight to the destination.

    I think the reality is you don't like RPGs hence are liking these action shooter games Bioware make these days. Fine, that's your thing but that's no reason to deride people who are looking for a more complex, enriched game experience.

  • Vixremento #97 1 year ago

    Things are strange over there is seems. I tried the original Mass Effect and I just couldn't get into it (it's not that I hated it - more that I just couldn't get stuck into it). I tried Mass Effect 2 (heaven knows why) and landed up loving it to bits (I've played through it three times now!). This (and my friend going on and on about how good it was) prompted me to buy DA:o for PC and it was like deju vu with the original ME...I just couldn't get into it when the game basically boiled down to the turn-based stuff.

    Anyway I've tried the demo for DA2 (hoping it would be like ME2 was for me with ME1) and landed up hating every second of it. So with Dragon Age proving to not be my thing I only hope that ME3 is more in line with ME2 than any of the DA titles (and not as quirky as the original ME). Ignore me though..I guess I'm just s strange breed of "old time" gamer these days.

  • icelt #98 1 year ago

    More like "Medieval Effect... with Dragons"

    And the demo for this game was horrible. I suppose that doesn't necessarily guarantee the full release will be horrible, but I sure as hell have zero faith in the title at this point.
    Edited by icelt at 27/02/11 @ 17:12

  • desomondo #99 1 year ago

    Unfortunately the streamlining of game mechanics is an active trend in the industry today. If you think it's just RPGs then you are deeply mistaken. As some one who loves old-school FPS games like the original Quake (arguably one of the most simplistic games designs in gaming history) modern shooters continuously astound me in how even more limited they are (I'm looking directly at you Bulletstorm). Tell me:

    * When did the ability to jump become unfashionable? It's only been a standard FPS mechanic since 1995!
    * How come magical invisible walls prevent me from falling to my death if I'm not paying attention to where I'm going?
    * Why is modern level design completely 100% linear? Even the original Doom had more open levels and it still used key cards.
    * What was so wrong with key cards anyway? Now you are just denied access to the next area if you haven't "found the power cell" or if your NPC companion hasn't kicked down a flimsy little door that is completely resistant to your big bad boot despite being more than capable of smashing the previous 20 other identical looking doors.

    I'm just saying, even though most RPG hardliners won't like the changes displayed in DA2, this is the way the industry is shifting, regardless of genre. The only thing we can do is vote with our wallets. If DA2 sells poorly it may give Bioware a moment to pause and rethink it's direction as unlikely as that maybe. I don't see it be anything other than a success myself.
    Edited by desomondo at 27/02/11 @ 17:17

  • yoomazir #100 1 year ago

    @desomondo
    "If DA2 sells poorly it may give Bioware a moment to pause and rethink it's direction"

    By the time they do that EA will close them and put the games in other hands.

  • desomondo #101 1 year ago

    @yoomazir

    Well put. That's another popular trend in today's gaming industry unfortunately :)

  • Raiten #102 1 year ago

    @Desmondo Streamlining isn't necesarily bad thing, if it involves cutting away bad parts, improving features to be actualy accessible.
    But too often these words streamlining/accessible, go hand in hand with dumbing down features, removing them compleatly, instead of using them for actualy improving game mechanics. Meaning they end up turning the game in to something, that any drooling dimwit is able to play with their eyes closed. Just look at Fable series it turned from rpg in to action game (Fable 3) where you can't die even if you try, seriously if you couldn't finish the game without dying, you have to be reaaaaly reaaaaaaaaly bad at games, that's the worst possible way of streamlining and making a game "accessible", it wasn't a game, just a bad intteractive movie.

    It certainly is where the game industry has been heading, instead of innovating, being creative, developers want their games to be played by every single creature on this planet, hence challenge/skill everything we used to have in games has disapeared in favour of giving us baby toys.

  • drumbaby #103 1 year ago

    I remember deciding to play my first RPG ever, and that was Oblivion. How at first it seemed like a cool enough game, nice and atmospheric, loads of character...but I couldn't really get comfortable playing it.

    At first it seemed a bit intimidating, as if making the wrong choice could end up screwing up the entire game...although why on earth it would (or would be allowed to by the devs) is beyond me. In the end it just seemed that I was walking around like a headless chicken, being expected to remember the intricacies of countless dialogues/ notes/ locations in order to make sense of my place in this world. Was I supposed to be keeping notes, I mean real life notes in a note book? How else was I supposed to piece together the puzzle?

    I decided that RPGs weren't really for me, very early on into this game. Maybe I should give the genre another go?

  • CaptainKid #104 1 year ago

    @drumbaby.
    I know what you mean especially about making real life notes.
    It's hard/impossible to follow the stories in RPG's if the game itself doesn't keep a log for you.
    Why not many RPG's do this is beyond me.

    I decided not to let it bother me to much and just don't take to many quests at once.
    I'm happy playing Fallout 3 right now.

    About screwing up by making a wrong choice I don't think that's possible.
    You can however miss out on powerful equipment/skills or cool story lines by making certain choices.
    A lot of RPG players go online to get knowledge about "the best build" and game play experience but I think this will ruin the game and makes you obsess to much. I almost stopped playing Oblivion because of this myself.

    I haven't checked anything online with Fallout 3 and having a blast playing not worrying about anything at all.
    I skill up what I think might be handy (and yes I made a wrong choice by investing a lot in energy weapons which I don't use, so what) and just play. You can adjust the difficulty anyway if you really fuck up your skill set.

  • alcides #105 1 year ago

    I would if they made it all gay-dating sim and no RPG at all.

  • desomondo #106 1 year ago

    @Raiten

    I completely agree: streamlining in of itself isn't a bad thing, only when it involves giving the players less game play (not to be confused with actual play time - grinding is the devil) and more importantly, the amount of freedom in how they play it.

    Personally I'd love to see developers offer a choice in the complexity in their products. We already have difficulty settings, why not complexity settings. If you want inventory management then make it a option that can be toggled on or off. Same thing with attribute points, skill points, tactics, rule sets, camera angle, interface, turn-based vs real time, entire squad control vs main character only. They should all be options that can be selected before, or even during, a game. Scale the game to be able to automate as many functions as possible for the action fans who prefer say Mass Effect 2, whilst making every aspect controllable for the old school die-hards who prefer the Balder's Gate game-play. It might be a bit of extra work but I'm sure a company like Bioware could invest the time and money into it.
    Edited by desomondo at 28/02/11 @ 00:49

  • metalangel #107 1 year ago

    @desomondo: excellent points!

  • michaelius #108 1 year ago

    Sadly when developers today say they are streamlining something it usually means dumbing down or removing elements which in their opinion could confuse playerbase.

    Now good example of streamlining would be allowing player to play the introduction first and then asking him to set stats for his character like they did in DA2 demo. I guess it might be important thing for people who aren't fans of genre.

    Dumbing down would for example be- replacing tech skills needed to open locks/hack in ME1 into pure action based mini-games of ME2 , removing countless weapons and armors and replacing them with 2-3 things per category in ME2 or replacing weapon overheating mechanic with clips. Or in case of DA2 removing friendly fire.

  • Murton #109 1 year ago

    "I haven't checked anything online with Fallout 3 and having a blast playing not worrying about anything at all."

    To be honest there's no need to check anything online with Fallout 3 when it comes to character advancement. Even a complete RPG novice can see the inherent redundancy within the skills system and the perk descriptions make it clear which ones are utterly useless and which are overpowered. The only thing you'll really need to look online for are side-quests/bobbleheads/unique items. Fallout 3 is an RPG for people who haven't played RPGs before, a nice little starter that will hopefully build an appetitie for something more substantial, just a shame that nobody is making anything more substantial here and now so we're left looking back to the glory days of Morrowind and NWN/KotOR.

  • apoc_reg #110 1 year ago

    DA2 and ME2 are barely RPGs a this point.. fun action games with RPG elements.

  • TelexStar #111 1 year ago

    @Murton - " Fallout 3 is an RPG for people who haven't played RPGs before, a nice little starter that will hopefully build an appetitie for something more substantial, just a shame that nobody is making anything more substantial here and now so we're left looking back to the glory days of Morrowind and NWN/KotOR. "

    No offense intended. I loved KotOR but anyone who thinks it's somehow more of a thoroughbred RPG than Fallout 3 is quite clearly blinded by a misguided sense of nostalgia. KotOR was so simple in it's RPG mechanics that it makes Fallout 3 look like a D&D game.

    I loved DA:o, Fallout 3, Morrowwind... and BG2 before that. But the combat was not what made those games great. The story, character development and choices were. So long as these other more important aspects of RPG's are in the main game then I'll be happy. And while I'm at it, I'll probably be more entertained by the combat than I was in DA:o.

  • Murton #112 1 year ago

    TelexStar - KotOR isn't a great example of RPG depth granted, but it's character advancement is a damned sight better than Fallout 3's. 13 skills, half of those redundant, a long list of perks more than half of which are easily spotted as worthless while a select few are "must have" I felt that I may as well have been given a character to play for all the "choice" I'd been given by the advancement system.

    KotOR was simple compared to NWN, but then that's what this thread is about, simplification. KotOR in my opinion is an example of "streamlining" with good execution, you get a nice accessible system for newcomers but enough depth for RPG fans who want something more whereas Fallout 3 went a little too far in that direction, the skills system is sorely lacking in scope and the combat is two dimensional with a lack of different damage types to make weapon choice meaningful. There's just too many cut corners in Fallout 3 to class it as a substantial RPG, it's an action RPG plain and simple. Bioware have followed the same path with Mass Effect and Dragon Age, even stripping out inventory management for some unfathomable reason, it's possible to make RPGs "accessible" without dumbing them down to the point that they cease to be RPGs and it would seem that Bioware passed that point quite some time ago.

  • TelexStar #113 1 year ago

    @Murton - "Fallout 3 went a little too far in that direction, the skills system is sorely lacking in scope and the combat is two dimensional with a lack of different damage types to make weapon choice meaningful."

    I take your point here and agree. But I think I just have a different personal litmus for what makes a good RPG (action or otherwise). I love a good story and I love the feeling of being able to influence that story (to a degree). I also love building a character to a point where he/she is different and customised to the one you started out with. For me, Fallout 3, ME2 ticked those boxes just as much as BG2, Morrowind, NWN and DA:o.

    I guess I'm just not sure on what this fixation is with old school heavy inventory micro-management and behind the scenes "dice rolling" combat.
    Edited by TelexStar at 28/02/11 @ 14:17

  • gmmonkey #114 1 year ago

    I thought the demo was amazing. My girlfriend, however, doesn't seem that impressed. The combat reminds me of Jade Empire, which I enjoyed immensely.

  • Quixz #115 1 year ago

    I just don't like Dragon Age! The demo sucked and i played it on the 360 and PC.

  • Sevens #116 1 year ago

    Yeah, "accessibility". Bioware should cooperate with Molyneux.

  • tyrant1 #117 1 year ago

    Lol.

    Bioware: "Puhleeze give us teh monies non-rpg gamers! We iz teh maeking teh gaems 4 u!"

    Please Bioware, stop this undignified bullshit. Just come out, admit you are abandoning your older audience who netted you roughly 2 mil sales a game, and are trying to snare a new audience. Something along the lines of call of duty/gears of war sales figures.

    At least that way you look desperate but honest. You know, instead of currently looking desperate liers.