Sony: Kinect-style control is "cumbersome"

By Tom Bramwell Published 26 October, 2010

EyeToy's dad critical of Move competitor.

Sony's Dr Richard Marks has reiterated his belief that using controller-free input to manipulate complex interfaces is a novelty that doesn't last.

"I totally agree that there is this magical feeling with using your hands to select something," Marks, who was one of the senior architects on PlayStation Move, told the New York Times in a feature about Microsoft's Kinect.

"But that feeling wears off pretty quickly, and it becomes a pretty cumbersome way to do things."

Marks was part of a team that looked at Kinect-style 3D camera technology in the PlayStation 2 era, dismissing it in favour of EyeToy and eventually Move.

"There are some experiences that it can do that are really neat but there just weren't enough experiences that made it make enough sense as a platform-level controller," he told Digital Foundry back in June.

"Coming back is that sometimes we need buttons to have certain kinds of experiences. Other times we need more precision than we can get out of those cameras. We need to know exactly what you're doing with your hands, especially in the more hardcore experiences."

Asked whether he meant that the technology actually limited the kind of games that could be created with it, Marks said that if it was "just the 3D camera", then "yeah I guess".

"That's what we ran into with EyeToy. When you have only the camera, it's a magical feeling but sometimes you just wish you could select something. I don't want to wave to click a button."

Microsoft's Kinect technology for Xbox 360 launches in Europe on 10th November, and Marks isn't the only person who feels that it has a lot to prove. Alex Kipman, Kinect's incubation director, told the New York Times, "If we are serious about shifting the entire computing industry to this world where the devices understand you, then the technology needs to be robust.

"Otherwise, it's just a gimmick."

We'll find out next week when the reviews start rolling out.

Picture of Tom.

About Tom Bramwell

Tom is Operations director of Eurogamer Network and Editor-at-Large of Eurogamer.net. He joined the company in February 2000. Follow him on Twitter.

Read more articles from Tom by visiting the Tom Bramwell archive page.

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Comments (53) Latest comment 1 year ago

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  • t8yman #1 2 years ago

    Big multinational thinks competitors product "isnt as good as ours" shocker!!

  • thewool #2 2 years ago

    "it's just a gimmick"

    Fixed.

  • Ignatius_Cheese #3 2 years ago

    Ooo cumbersome. Surely something can only be "cumbersome" if it is unwieldly or bulky by definition? i.e. holding something ;o)

    Still, competitor's creator of similar product in condemning other company's product SHOCKER! :o)

  • BuffoonBassoon #4 2 years ago

    its gona fail big time! well i mean for us hardcore gamers its gona let us down but obv the "casual" audience will make it a sell out product. Shame really

  • Ignatius_Cheese #5 2 years ago

    It's alright Buffoon! They're still making COD!!

  • Lotos8ter #6 2 years ago

    Well he would, wouldn't he!

  • Goodfella #7 2 years ago

    He's right though, once the novelty of things like controlling movie playback with voice and waving arms around wears off you're going to go back to the much easier solution of pressing a button with your thumb.

    I think the same will apply to many of the games.

  • homerramone #8 2 years ago

    "There are some experiences that it can do that are really neat but there just weren't enough experiences that made it make enough sense as a platform-level controller"

    Sounds like a fair description of Move, Kinect and the Wii controller to me.

  • RodHull #9 2 years ago

    Thankyou Dr Marks for admitting how cumbersome and unwieldy all the iterations of your EyeToy product have been.

  • BigDannyH #10 2 years ago

    I really hope no one buys me Kinect for Xmas, gonna be really difficult to fake excitement, although at least some thought will have gone in to the fact I'm a gamer. I'm just not that kind of gamer.

    Luckily buying a house next month means I'll probably be getting kitchen utensils instead. Way more useful (and exciting).

  • altitude2k #11 2 years ago

    Is he still chewing at that same bone?

  • Bander #12 2 years ago

    Let's just forget that Kinect is also a microphone, and can work at the same time as other peripherals!

  • JoeGBallad #13 2 years ago

    They were demoing kinect at hmv Glasgow last week. I watched for a bit and had a quick shot. I've got to admit he's bang on the money here. There is that 'magic' feeling when you first use it, but then you're left there, flailing your arms like a twat, jumping when it tells you to even though it doesn't recognise you jumping. If it was 100 quid cheaper, and I'm honestly not joking here, it'd be worth it, because it does offer that Wii sports style enjoyable experience that a wide variety of people can join in with. It's just a shame that the Wii is still cheaper and, overall, better.

    For the so-called hardcore, ie the folk that still write off the Wii despite the fact many developers have found great ways to integrate the Wii-mote into amazing 'non-casual' games, Kinect doesnt have a chance. Not because we don't want it, we do all like new technology that impresses us on some level. No, it's because without that remote or move controller in your hand, you're left with a device that IS an eyetoy, and we've all been there. Washing windows was fun the first time, but it got old fast.

  • Teamallstar #14 2 years ago

    Desperate much Sony?

    Third placed console maker criticises main competitor? Wouldn't it be better to concentrate on problems with your own product rather than those of the competition?

  • metalangel #15 2 years ago

    All motion control stuff is cumbersome, whether you're waving your arms or a remote with a clitoral stimulator stuck on top.

  • Beano #16 2 years ago

    "Big multinational thinks competitors product "isnt as good as ours" shocker!! "

    Agree - but for once the big multinational is right on the money.

  • drxym #17 2 years ago

    I think he is right, however at the same time the Microsoft hype train is full steam ahead and I doubt the target audience (the under 10s and women) are going to recognize reality when they're being bombarded with "aspirational" and "lifestyle" advertising. The ads barely even show the games which tells you all you need to know.

    Note also that reviews are conspicuously absent for Kinect. I believe Microsoft is paranoid that negative reviews will poison their carefully crafted "message" and have stuck an embargo in place to stop that happening. After all, we can't have the dads, husbands, boyfriends saying how shit the device is now can we?

  • DoctorFraud #18 2 years ago

    What is cumbersome and annoying is how move doesnt work at anything less than straight in front of your tv.

    It just doesnt work properly for multiplayer. Big step back from the wiimote.

  • M_of_the_sys #19 2 years ago

    @DoctorFraud

    Works fine for me. Perhaps your Move controllers are broken.

  • bladdard #20 2 years ago

    Kinect will not fail for many reasons.

    First of all it appeals to the massive american Microsoft are god crowd.

    Secondly there's the casuals. I've played Just Dance on the Wii and it left me cold but my missus and her mates loved it but found holding the controller annoying, these ladies will absolutely love dancing games on kinect.

    Lastly there's the advertising might of Microsoft, people will see it this and say it's witchcraft I tells yer I must have it.

    With a modest price drop (sub £100) kinect will be just as successful as the Wii and Sony will be kicking themselves once again because they first came up with this tech.
    Edited by bladdard at 26/10/10 @ 10:28

  • Deckard1 #21 2 years ago

    But the wii-mote and the move are both cumbersome as well. Kinect looks a bit shit, but fair play to MS I suppose for trying something a bit different instead of just copying Nintendo.

  • drxym #22 2 years ago

    @Goodfella, He's right though, once the novelty of things like controlling movie playback with voice and waving arms around wears off you're going to go back to the much easier solution of pressing a button with your thumb.

    The same is true on the PS3 too. For multimedia playback, the console is easiest to control in this order - remote, dualshock, Move. The remote is best because it has buttons that precisely map onto all the actions. The dual shock is second best because it has the major buttons and the others are on a submenu. The Move is last because it doesn't even have navigational buttons and you have you wave your arm around. Waving your arm around sucks, and the experience is pretty poor at the best of times and lousy when navigating long lists (e.g. movies) because you have to wave repeatedly, carefully squeezing the trigger when you mean to move one way and releasing it when you don't.

    I think the experience on Kinect will be equally poor if not more so because you don't even benefit from a trigger button to tell the UI when to ignore you and when to proceed. And you don't have wireless controls so that to control the console you must sit up and be in camera view.

    Voice control is going to be even more retarded because people won't remember the commands or the box will ignore them, or the box will respond spuriously. Think how annoying and frustrating TellMe phone services are and that's your 360 under voice control.

    So motion & voice control in general is a gimmick. How it works in a game is another matter, but if the game is Kinect based then I don't see any issue with the UI being motion based too. The biggest issue is there are limits to how the UI can be designed for motion control.
    Edited by drxym at 26/10/10 @ 10:59

  • Beano #23 2 years ago

    "Kinect looks a bit shit, but fair play to MS I suppose for trying something a bit different instead of just copying Nintendo. "

    Yes, because copying Eyetoy is more original.

  • Beano #24 2 years ago

    "The Move is last because it doesn't even have navigational buttons and you have you wave your arm around."

    err.... welll... no. A small tilt with the wrist is enough. I agree XMB navigation with Move is not convenient, but you don't need to wave your arms in anyway. And the NavCon controller does have a d-pad which works also.

    I agree 100% voice-commands is a retarded idea.
    Edited by Beano at 26/10/10 @ 11:04

  • NotSoSlim #25 2 years ago

    Hate these posts by EG. He was obviously asked a question and gave a honest answer. They have continually said both Marks and Anton that Kinect does work but they wanted feedback so went with Move over Kinect.

    I am 100% sure the next round of consoles will have best of both worlds as if both Kinect and Move are successful in there own rights then it would be stupid to ignore them.

    Sony and Ninty saw the kinect technology and passed so MS have adopted it and good luck to them.

  • Beano #26 2 years ago

    "While Sony only have original ideas:"

    I never claimed that - both Kinect and Move are clearly ripoffs.

  • Skooch #27 2 years ago

    @drxym and Beano - Have either of you actually tried Kinect? There was a lot of "think" and horribly broad generalisations in your posts.

    "The ads barely even show the games which tells you all you need to know."

    Really? The Wii does exactly the same and has sold 70m units worldwide, so this is a problem how exactly? Research has proven that showing game footage really doesn't work well on many consumers, showing people having fun whilst playing a game is a much better proposition when trying to sell something.

    It really does amuse me how geeks on gaming forums make sweeping statements about products they either haven't even tried or weren't designed with them in mind.

  • darth_paul #28 2 years ago

    "Sony's Dr Richard Marks has reiterated his belief that using controller-free input to manipulate complex interfaces is a novelty that doesn't last. "

    funny, the same can be said about MOVE and the WIIMOTE. The wiimote has not been used for complex manipulations, so dont expect MOVE to do any better
    Edited by darth_paul at 26/10/10 @ 11:35

  • darth_paul #29 2 years ago

    @Beano
    the kinect is a heavy evolution of the PS EYE, whereas MOVE is nothing more than a Wiimote update.

  • Beano #30 2 years ago

    @Skooch : No I have not tried Kinect - only judging by gameplay videos, MS's demoes and statements from people I trust who have tried it. Also - the Kinect games shown looks a lot like Eyetoy 2.0 in concept. A good dose of common sense also tells me it will not work as promised for most game types - only for casual Eyetoy-type party games and dance games where speed and precision is not important.

    @darth_paul : Maybe - maybe not. But the shown games doesn't look like more than Eyetoy 2.0. Hopefully new and original concepts will appear which takes andvantage of Kinect. If/when that happens, I will happily invest in Kinect.
    Edited by Beano at 26/10/10 @ 11:48

  • drxym #31 2 years ago

    @Beano "err.... welll... no. A small tilt with the wrist is enough. I agree XMB navigation with Move is not convenient, but you don't need to wave your arms in anyway. And the NavCon controller does have a d-pad which works also."

    It's more than a tilt, you have to flick your wrist if you want to fling yourself down a long list. I have hundreds of titles in some folders. In a button based system I can just hold the down button. In Move you have to hold T, flick, release T, "reset" yourself, hold T, flick etc. It's a pain in the butt and the point I was making if you usually have to adopt a posture to fling the controller like this and it's easy to forget to let go of the T and find yourself going the wrong direction.

    The Kinect doesn't even have a T so if you were doing some kind of "wafting" gesture to scroll through a list of titles, how does it know when you are merely resetting your hand and when you actually meant to waft the other direction. I can't think of an easy way it could infer this without some clumsy hacks such as using your other hand as trigger like device. It would be very messy.

  • Beano #32 2 years ago

    "It's more than a tilt, you have to flick your wrist if you want to fling yourself down a long list. I have hundreds of titles in some folders."

    No - just flick/tilt the wrist and release the T-button and repeat like a wave-movement. No need to scrool the entire list in one movement. No arm-flapping involved.

  • drxym #33 2 years ago

    @drxym and Beano - Have either of you actually tried Kinect? There was a lot of "think" and horribly broad generalisations in your posts.

    I tried it in a roadshow and wasn't hugely impressed. It is much as I expected - simplistic games with noticeable lag. Simplistic being the operative word. Kinect Adventures is so simplistic that I think you can measure its long term appeal in minutes. As for the "think", would you prefer I risk stating my opinion as fact by removing qualifiers?

    Really? The Wii does exactly the same and has sold 70m units worldwide, so this is a problem how exactly?

    It's a problem for consumers if they get conned into buying a device based on "aspiration" which turns out to be shit. From the companies perspective anything that increases sales is a good thing, assuming the company can maintain the momentum by delivering decent quality games at least once in a while. If they can't then sales will fall through the floor once word of mouth and negative press overwhelms the hype.

    Research has proven that showing game footage really doesn't work well on many consumers, showing people having fun whilst playing a game is a much better proposition when trying to sell something.

    What research would that be then? It isn't hard to find countless ads which prominently feature in game footage (if only from a cutscene) to sell themselves. Only last night I saw a Force Unleashed advert and I can think of highly memorable ads which must have had a huge effect on sales, e.g. Gears of War's ad.

    Even Nintendo shows footage in their ads these days and with good reason. People want to see what the game looks like.

  • callum9999 #34 2 years ago

    While I'm sure Kinect is more accurate, navigating the menus on Eyetoy antigrav (one of my favourite ps2 games) was really awkward and annoying, so I imagine the same will be true on Kinect.

  • Arwin #35 2 years ago

    I'm still playing Sports Champions, great game. Have completed Gold for the excellent Table Tennis and last week Gladiator Duel, and getting there with Bocce and Disc Golf. Gladiator Duel is a great exercise too, with dual Move in particular, can't wait for The Fight now). I think Move is great and very versatile as advertised - you can use it for almost any game type, and the proof is in the pudding - almost any game type is already being represented. Just having a pointer alone is a big win over Kinect, imho.

    That said I fully expect Kinect to do well, especially in the U.S. where the 360 is dominant anyway, and it's little sister Britain is probably going to do pretty well also as the 360 seems quite popular there too.

    The thing is, each time you see a headline like this, you have to realise (or at least I do) that there was an interview with Richard Marks on the Move controller, he was asked a question on Kinect for the 1000th time, which again he politely answered, and afterwards only the Kinect comment is quoted all over the place.

    And that alone, is a strong indication that Kinect is going to do well ...

    Very few people are going to switch from 360 to PS3 or vice versa for either Move or Kinect, so we'll see existing owners buy these products first. But I'm pretty sure that fewer Wii's are going to get bought because of it. And I do think that with its dance and fitness games, Kinect has a bigger chance of selling 360s to a new audience that currently do not have a console yet, more so than the Playstation 3.

  • Kengro #36 2 years ago

    Move is cumbersome, i'm tired og pointing it at the camera, doing a, doing b each time i'm to use it. Why the hell do i need to do that each time

  • Goodfella #37 2 years ago

    @drxym

    Why on earth are you using the Move for XMB navigation anyway? The only time I use it is when I start up a Move compatible game.

    It's not like Sony have marketed it as a selling point anyway, unlike MS have with Kinect.

  • Chazmeister #38 2 years ago

    If Kinect was the only way to control the 360 or any future Kinect games, then it would be a hinderance. However I see the best possibilities for Kinect in supplementing the existing joypad control scheme rather than being a total replacement for it. In that sense I think it has the edge over Move, because Move is a total replacement for the standard pads, in that you can't really mix and match them for games.

    However I do agree that for things like navigating the dashboard, that using hand gestures and voice control will just be a novelty without much practical application, as it will still be far easier and quicker just to pick up a pad and flick a the sticks and a few buttons.
    Edited by Chazmeister at 26/10/10 @ 12:43

  • drxym #39 2 years ago

    @Goodfella, I don't use it as a rule, but sometimes I may have just be about to start a Move game, or I've just finished one, or the move is the only controller lying within reach / charged and therefore I use it. I am simply agreeing with you that motion / voice controls are a novelty and backing up my opinion with my experiences with such a device. I believe the Kinect will be an even worse experience.
    Edited by drxym at 26/10/10 @ 12:45

  • orangpelupa #40 2 years ago

    @DoctorFraud
    err... you can use Move while not Straight to the TV.
    you just need to move the PS Camera to left/right according your position.

    Yes it is a manual work, yes it will be much better if the camera have motorized base so it can "follow" you. But manually move the camera left/right is very easy to do. Took less than a minute :D

    what i dislike from move is the bombardment of CALIBRATION.....
    each game inside sport champion need to re-calibrate everytime it is started :(

    wii much simple, no need calibration. Even if need calibration, it is only 1 step procedure (wii sport resort). Not 3 step procedure (sport champions)

  • Jolly_Armadillo #41 2 years ago

    @Beano
    the kinect is a heavy evolution of the PS EYE, whereas MOVE is nothing more than a Wiimote update.

    The MOVE is a heavy evolution of the wiimote, whereas kinect is nothing more than a PS EYE update.

    See it can work both ways, they are both just improvements(copies) on previous ideas. None no more evolutionary than the last.

  • Br0ken_Engli5h #42 2 years ago

    Personally I'm more interested as to what 90's crooner Richard Marx has to say on the matter.

  • dagas #43 2 years ago

    Just like the smack talk before American wrestling. "I'm gonna kick yo ass!" "Nah uh! I'm gonna kick yo ass!"

  • Skooch #44 2 years ago

    "It isn't hard to find countless ads which prominently feature in game footage (if only from a cutscene) to sell themselves. Only last night I saw a Force Unleashed advert and I can think of highly memorable ads which must have had a huge effect on sales, e.g. Gears of War's ad."

    Would that be the two most well-known Gears of War ads that feature absolutely no gameplay or cutscene footage at all?

  • FogHeart #45 2 years ago

    ...enters thread...presses ctrl-f...'dildo'...text not found...good, no one new to add to ignore list.

  • darth_paul #46 2 years ago

    dildo

  • oreillymj #47 2 years ago

    Would love to see some of the PSEye games patched with move support.

    Oh, and a PS3 remake of Okami with Move support please.

  • dfua #48 2 years ago

    After a few weeks with Move I actually prefer the Wii, I think I'd feel the same with Kinect too.

    The Wii just works, without all the messing about with calibration, resetting the pointer, positioning the camera and finding enough space to use it. It also has much more charm and personality.

  • man.the.king #49 2 years ago

    @FogHeart

    "..enters thread...presses ctrl-f...'dildo'...text not found...good, no one new to add to ignore list. "

    That's because you are searching for the wrong text. Here's a new ass for you to ignore :)

    EDIT: And oh - another one.
    Edited by man.the.king at 26/10/10 @ 19:00

  • man.the.king #50 2 years ago

    In my opinion, over half of the people here criticizing Marks and Sony for this opinion would have been agreeing with the criticism if ONLY this observation had been expressed by anyone other than someone from Sony.
    Edited by man.the.king at 26/10/10 @ 20:50

  • Machiavellian #51 2 years ago

    After a few weeks with Move I actually prefer the Wii, I think I'd feel the same with Kinect too.

    The Wii just works, without all the messing about with calibration, resetting the pointer, positioning the camera and finding enough space to use it. It also has much more charm and personality.

    I do not know why you got marked down for that comment but I am in agreement with you. Yes, the Wiimote isn't as accurate as the Move but it also doesn't need all the fussing around the move need as well. Most games for the Wii, I pick up the Wiimote and it just works.

  • TwitchyMcTwitch #52 2 years ago

    "Marks isn't the only person who feels that it has a lot to prove. Alex Kipman, Kinect's incubation director, told the New York Times, "If we are serious about shifting the entire computing industry to this world where the devices understand you, then the technology needs to be robust.

    "Otherwise, it's just a gimmick."

    Interesting.

  • DragonBreathe #53 1 year ago

    I live in the United States, I can't speak for all people here. But what I will say is that it's great for families. I feel that it's important for families to interact with one another outdoors and to be physically active. However, it is nice to be active...at home for a change. When we're at home, it is great to have something to do together that is different. My wife actually gets up and exercises. For that alone, I would pay $500.00 USD! Any of you have a wife that is putting on the weight like a hungry bear before hibernation like me? Then go out and buy either a Wii, a Kinect or a Move and get that bear off of her fat @$$. Let's take advantage of this time and get our ladies back to the condition that they were in when we bought the damn cows!