Sony: PS3 wand is "best of both worlds"

By Tom Bramwell Published 9 June, 2009

PS Eye does casual, wand does precision.

Sony has said that its as-yet unnamed PS3 motion controller and the PlayStation Eye combo will cover off all the bases and remain relevant, despite Microsoft's hopes for hands-free Project Natal gaming.

"It's not only relevant," US marketing boss Peter Dille said to Kotaku about the wand, "[but] from our perspective we have the technology that provides better precision."

That, he said, "gives us the opportunity to do the best of both worlds". "If you want to do what we're referring to as casual motion games, the PlayStation Eye and the motion controller do that quite nicely."

Sony's E3 press conference - the last of the usual Big Three - saw the platform holder unveil the technology, and the prototype wand with buttons on it, which combined with the camera allows for "millimetre precision". Enough to do handwriting, archery and other difficult gestures.

Despite the strength of the on-stage demo, though, the Sony controller lost the column-inches war to the dreamier vision of Microsoft's Project Natal, which aims to remove the controller from the equation entirely.

Neither product has any particularly advanced games associated with it yet (Lionhead's Milo & Kate looking like more of a prototype), and neither has been seen outside of controlled conditions, but both companies have said that development kits are on the way, or already with, third parties.

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About Tom Bramwell

Tom is Operations director of Eurogamer Network and Editor-at-Large of Eurogamer.net. He joined the company in February 2000. Follow him on Twitter.

Read more articles from Tom by visiting the Tom Bramwell archive page.

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Comments (74) Latest comment 3 years ago

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  • Widge #1 3 years ago

    I'm guessing you missed "think" in there at the end!
    Edited by Widge at 09/06/09 @ 09:18

  • mcbi4kh2 #2 3 years ago

    Is it just me or does anyone else think an epic RPG game can be made using this? Using that as my mage in Elder Scrolls would have been awesome.

  • Dizzy #3 3 years ago

    They might be right about this one but I guess the games and the marketing for all these motion controls will be the deciding factor. Nintendo has the mind-share now and does not need to do a lot to sell, MS might impress because of the very futuristic vision of the motion stuff and Sony will need some killer games to sell theirs IMHO.

  • Latinleader #4 3 years ago

    @Dizzy

    Agreed. You can see the length Nintendo have gone to to promote the Wii to the casual market. Just about everyone knows about Wii sports, Wii Fit and others. They've made their impact. I don't mind Sony and Microsoft doing their own motion thing but if the end result is rubbish clones of games already out there then there's no point.

  • Mr_Bogus #5 3 years ago

    In a tennis/golf/shooting game, holding a peripheral in your hand would probably feel more hands-on than waving empty arms at a camera.

  • MyPointIs #6 3 years ago

    @disc

    Well, maybe Natal could detect your 'leaning' to infer movement, instead of an analogue stick. However, you can't do that with a just a normal camera.

  • rotmm #7 3 years ago

    Sony suffering from Wiinis envy (Pachter)

  • FireMonkey #8 3 years ago

    Mr_Bogus - I take it you are referring to MS's Natal there. I agree that I like to hold something, but the point of not needing anything in your hands does not mean you must not have anything in your hands. If your playing a shooting game you can still hold a replica gun / old GCon gun / water spray / can of beer if you want.

    From my point of view the Natal just means less reason to waste money on a crappy controller for each type game.

    Anyway I wouldn't be surprised if a company will start releasing cheap, lightweight imitations of guns, tennis rackets handles, etc. that don't actually do anything but just help with the feeling of holding something. These should be really cheap to produce and buy.

  • Dizzy #9 3 years ago

    "In a tennis/golf/shooting game, holding a peripheral in your hand would probably feel more hands-on than waving empty arms at a camera. "

    Nothing stops you from holding a real golf stick with Natal.

    Anyway... MS is the more innovative and visionary one but Sony solution might prove the more practical one. I guess both of these will only really start to matter next gen, when they are packed in with the PS4/720.

  • The_Programmer #10 3 years ago

    In a tennis/golf/shooting game, holding a peripheral in your hand would probably feel more hands-on than waving empty arms at a camera.

    Instead of "waving empty arms at a camera" what's to stop you using a real racket?

  • MENTAL1ST Verified Senior Software Engineer, Picsel UK Ltd. #11 3 years ago

    Nothing stops you from holding a real golf stick with Natal.

    Nothing we know of. Maybe the mo-cap technology breaks if there are unexpected extra extensions t your limbs. Or maybe Microsoft TCRs will ban developers from requiring extra peripherals or props to be used with Natal.

    Sony's motion capture may be more precise, but I'd say Microsoft's is more flexible (and their tech people seem to be OK with it being used at least in combination with a standard xbox controller). It remains to be seen which system will be better for gamers.

    What I do worry about, as people say, is whether there will be at least one analogue thumbstick on the wands (the demonstrtatrion setup implied they were to be used in red/blue pairs). If there isn't, they might end up seeming even more handicapped for 'core' gaming purposes than the wiimote and nunchuck.

  • MyPointIs #12 3 years ago

    Do you really think people would swing a real golf club in front of their Flatscreen TV?

  • Dizzy #13 3 years ago

    >Do you really think people would swing a real golf club in front of their Flatscreen TV?

    Jesus... arguing for the sake of it? Use a rubber bat then... or anything else...
    Edited by Dizzy at 09/06/09 @ 10:17

  • MENTAL1ST Verified Senior Software Engineer, Picsel UK Ltd. #14 3 years ago

    I guess both of these will only really start to matter next gen, when they are packed in with the PS4/720.

    Both of these systems, well Microsoft's at any rate - actually, Sony's too, are designed to put off the need for a new hardware revision, without the rebadging and clockspeed tweaks that Nintendo did to extend the life of the Gamecube with motion controllers.

    Edited by MENTAL1ST at 09/06/09 @ 10:26

  • MyPointIs #15 3 years ago

    @Dizzy

    I forgot to add an ;) at the end. And you forgot your morning pill, it seems to me :)

  • Diomedes #16 3 years ago

    The wand must have an analogue stick ,if not it will fail just as Natal .

  • Dizzy #17 3 years ago

    "Both of these systems, well Microsoft's at any rate - actually, Sony's too, are designed to put off the need for a new hardware revision"

    True.. but there is a difference between what you want and what you get. I am sure MS and Sony will try to sell these motion things to the masses, but I am a bit skeptical if they will succeed this gen. I guess a killer game or feature might do the trick. We will see.

  • Bigglesworth #18 3 years ago

    Kind of refreshing to see that Sony seem to have dialled back on the corporate passive aggression a bit, after E3 at least. What with MS and Ninty both taking sideswipes at the competing tech, lets hope Sony are learning from their previous PR debacles.

  • Arwin #19 3 years ago

    I've learnt that a fair few developers (including third party) have had the PMC testkit for months. Apparently the company that worked with Nintendo for the drivers/SDK bit for the WiiMotionPlus have also just created the same easy toolkit for Sony's wand(s).

    Oh and yes the PMC has an analog stick. As it stands now, it has as many and about the same buttons as half a DS3. There's already a registered patent that links two of these halves to form a complete DS3 like controller, which is interesting. I hope they manage to make something like that work, that could be very good. But we'll see.

    I disagree that the PMC has the best of both worlds, because the best thing about Natal is the skeletal mapping, which the PS Eye isn't going to be able to do. EyePet looks cute, but it's not comparable I think to what would have been possible with Natal. But otherwise it is definitely better than WM+ in all respects, and definitely is extremely precise, tactile and comes with buttons. I think it's definitely the better all-round solution at the moment that is most likely to find application for both 'casual' and 'hardcore' games.

  • DrDamn #20 3 years ago

    Software is where it's at for any of these controllers.

    Killer features for the Sony solutions for me are the precision and hopefully sensible button arrangement - plus being able to use two at once. Killer features for Natal for me could well be use with a standard controller. Natal just doing head tracking or something similar. Not got any interest in full body tracking - though I accept it's a very attractive proposition for the casual market.

    One thing we haven't seen addressed which is very important. How the hell am I going to balance a wiimote sensor bar, Natal camera and PS3Eye on top of my tv?

  • CallousB #21 3 years ago

    @Arwin "Oh and yes the PMC has an analog stick"

    I don't think the ones at E3 did...and I'm not 100% convinced that they will (some patents had them..some didn't)

    If sony intend on including two of the controllers in each bundle (which seems likely) including an analogue would make them far more expensive as they would have to include Bluetooth in one or both.

    I'm wondering if Sony wiil try to cut down the price of each controller for the mass market by just including simple button recognition which would either be read from additional leds inside the globe which the camera would pick up... or just using infrared like a simple remote control.

    They could likely do a bundle of the camera and 4 simple LED wands without analogue for the same price as one Wii remote + nunchuk style controller.

  • ChadSexington #22 3 years ago

    If developers can do great games for them, I'd happily buy Natal and a Wand, but I can't see it happening. Peripherals don't particularly sell well and Nintendo has all the momentum, so I can't see either stealing Nintendo's thunder. Also, the price rumours for the Natal (£100+) mean it's going to have to be pretty special to succeed.

  • alpha-0ne #23 3 years ago

    Unless you attatch a wand to both feet, hand and head you wont get the same 3d work precision

  • Geordiemp #24 3 years ago

    But natal either has serious LAG or it cannot do what it says. If you pause the videos you can see a big discrepancy bwteen the user and the screen.

    See the below image showing the girls arms crossed and the screen shows different, taken from the conference.

    [link url=http://img190.imageshack.us/img190/5/screencapture.jpg
    ]http://img190.imageshack.us/img190/5/scr...[/link]

    So, lag or a fake scripted demo, either of which make me suspect about Natal.

    Dont shoot the messenger, comment on the image.

    Sony PMC was real time with no lag at 120 Hz, light saber gameanyone am I sold. Natal for a footy game, but only if it works lag free.

    Ps I have all consoles, so I just look at what has best potential for games.

    Just cant see the Wii motion wand being a fast 1:1 motion to graphics with its limitations.
    Edited by Geordiemp at 09/06/09 @ 12:12

  • chubster2010 #25 3 years ago

    @Firemonkey
    re. 'Mr_Bogus - I take it you are referring to MS's Natal there. I agree that I like to hold something, but the point of not needing anything in your hands does not mean you must not have anything in your hands. If your playing a shooting game you can still hold a replica gun / old GCon gun / water spray / can of beer if you want.'

    This is true.

    However, let's say you use this model, and hold a Gcon while playing a Natal FPS - how exactly are you going to fire the gun?

    'Natal for a footy game, but only if it works lag free.'

    But how would this work? Yes, with Natal you could simulate the motion of kicking the football, but how exactly are you going to play a whole game? Will players need to run around their room? Run on the spot? Point in the direction they want to run? It's all well and good MS saying controllers are a barrier to interactivity, and Natal is controller free gaming - but there are a lot of questions as to how practical the system will be for certain types of games.

    I'd say that some sort of button (at the very least) will be required for certain game genres.

    @ CallousB

    'If sony intend on including two of the controllers in each bundle (which seems likely) including an analogue would make them far more expensive as they would have to include Bluetooth in one or both. '

    As (by the looks of it) both wands sense the angle of your hand and - I assume - beam this info to your ps3, wouldn't both need blutooth anyway?
    Edited by chubster2010 at 09/06/09 @ 12:41

  • Bigglesworth #26 3 years ago

    @chubster:
    Presumably you'll be asked to perfom some kind of immersive and compelling mime; tapping out at the screen or some such (and flinging a hand out to one side to reload?). Eesh.

    More seriously, I understand Natal can be used in conjuntion with a standard controller.

  • chubster2010 #27 3 years ago

    @Bigglesworth
    What - so you'll have to hold a 360 controller while playing? Kind of works against the concept of 'controller free gaming' doesn't it?

    I'm not having a go at MS - I think that what they are proposing is fascinating and (if it works as well as they suggest) revolutionary. I would just like to have seen more answers before proclaiming the death of the classic analogue stick + button combo that, let's face it, has done a pretty good job for most games up to now!!

  • Beano #28 3 years ago

    @Dizzy : I also agree - hopefully the wand/stick will have a stick in addition to the trigger and maybe a button more.

    Personally I find Sony's wand a lot more promising than Natal. Sure Natal seems interesting from a technical perspective, but I feel that standing in the living room waving my arms and legs is so 2003'ish - been there done tha, thank you!
    A faster and more precise wiimote clone is far more usefull in real games.

  • SFG_Clan #29 3 years ago

    Sonys Wang more like
    this is just Sony just trying to shout MEEE TOOO MEE TOO
    At least Microsoft came up with something original in the motion sensor market instead of copying and pasting Nintendos design documents renaming them and adding a camera peripheral

  • chubster2010 #30 3 years ago

    @SFG_Clan
    MS just copy and pasted Sony's PS Eye design document and embellished them a little bit... No?
    Edited by chubster2010 at 09/06/09 @ 13:19

  • Kremlik Verified Co-Founder, Crash To Desktop #31 3 years ago

    I think people are forgetting Natal's other trick - The voice controls put it far behond 'arm waving', intereacting with actal character kinda what Milo showed us as probly the main goal of Natal the motion control is just an addtion to that imo

    I can't see ethier being cheap after seeing what Nintendo did, and Sony's offering if you do require two wands per person your looking at what £20 per wand minimum and £30 for the cam? Thats not going to be cheap, although compeared to Nintendo it is =/

    Anyway all this is very moot until we see the software to back it up - Again as Nintendo proved you may have the best game in the world but sloppy 'waggle' controls can crush a game

  • Beano #32 3 years ago

    @SFG_Clan : So Natal is original now? - common!

    MS are obvious also envying Nintendo's huge success and try to emulate it - their approach is just different... more EyeToy'ish.

  • Beano #33 3 years ago

    @Kremlik : Stuff like voice control and face recognition can easily be done with the Eye also - no difference here.

    EDIT: Face recogntion was actually possible with EyeToy on PS2 - it was a feature in EyeToy Spy.
    Edited by Beano at 09/06/09 @ 13:28

  • Rodchenko #34 3 years ago

    Nothing stops you from holding a real golf stick with Natal.
    Instead of "waving empty arms at a camera" what's to stop you using a real racket?

    Since neither of those will give me any tangible feedback on me 'hitting' the ball, I don't see the point of holding something. Ultimately you will still be waving something in thin air.

    I like Natal a lot in a 'Minority Report' kind of way, for browsing menus and control media, but the (current) lack of any force feedback mechanism is rather bothersome, imo.

  • Dizzy #35 3 years ago

    "@Kremlik : Stuff like voice control and face recognition can easily be done with the Eye also - no difference here. "

    Yes but it will have a serious impact on the games (CPU wise) while Natal has zero performance impact (and that is very good news for people writing stuff for 360 since they can support Natal without thinking about the technical implications).

    "However, let's say you use this model, and hold a Gcon while playing a Natal FPS - how exactly are you going to fire the gun? "

    Shout BANG! ;) j/k
    Edited by Dizzy at 09/06/09 @ 13:30

  • Doctor_What #36 3 years ago

    Natal debates always seem to come to the same problems:

    Even if there is enough space for me to do a spinning roundhouse in my living room (which there isn't) I still don't have a whole dojo's worth of floorspace to move around my opponents.

    The low-lighting issues which have always hamstrung the PS Eye - how accurate is Natal when you're wearing dark jeans and standing in front of a dark-coloured sofa? Maybe it's great, but maybe it's not.

    Perhaps I'm only seeing the down side, but both of the above seem like pretty obvious questions to me, and I would think that MS would have addressed them if they had good answers. A boxing game with Natal could be cool, I don't think I can be arsed to jump around all night, and I can't see much more being done with it at the moment than Eyetoy or Wii games.

    The Wand controller seems to be more tuned to the limitations of practically making a playable game. Natal is an incredible tech demo, but so were 3D goggles and you don't see many of them around any more.

  • Widge #37 3 years ago

    Whoever mentioned a potential controller that could split into two: I want that.

    Analogues on each please, it makes sense!

  • chubster2010 #38 3 years ago

    @Dizzy
    re 'Shout BANG!

    That does seem like the only solution at the moment doesn't it?

    So will it be 'Dadadadadadadada' for machine guns, 'whoooosh - blammooooo!' for rocket launchers and 'fzzzhewfzzhew!' for lasers?

    Aces.

  • Beano #39 3 years ago

    "Yes but it will have a serious impact on the games (CPU wise) while Natal has zero performance impact (and that is very good news for people writing stuff for 360 since they can support Natal without thinking about the technical implications). "

    Since the recognition (face and voice) is based on software running in the console (not in the device) it will cause a CPU hit either way. Also face recognition is not really CPU heavy. Natal's advantage is that the API's for this is standard with Natal while this is not being offered to PS3 developers as standard- yet.

  • Beano #40 3 years ago

    @Doctor_What : I agree. I'm pretty amazed to see Eyetoy- and wii-haters suddenly applauding Natal's non-controller promises. I feel we have been here before - I for one will not begin waving my arm and legs to play a game which can be played easierly and more precise with a normal controller.

  • Dizzy #41 3 years ago

    "Since the recognition (face and voice) is based on software running in the console (not in the device) it will cause a CPU hit either way"

    Err.. nope. Natal has that on device. Natal device has a CPU (probably a DSP like thing)

    "The low-lighting issues which have always hamstrung the PS Eye - how accurate is Natal when you're wearing dark jeans and standing in front of a dark-coloured sofa? Maybe it's great, but maybe it's not. "

    It does not care about light. It has a "camera" that makes a 3D scan of everything.... without needing light.
    Edited by Dizzy at 09/06/09 @ 13:51

  • frunk #42 3 years ago

    I get the sense here that a few peeps are missing some of the facts around each technology, so here is my understanding – please shoot me down if you know different:

    1. What is to stop you holding something in your hand with Natal – like a golf club, etc?
    - well nothing, but you won't get the precision of the Sony system as it has accelerometers in the wand… and you don’t have buttons/triggers in your hand to do other actions. Voice recognition may get over things like golf club selection, but I doubt it will be able to detect your “trigger finger” moving on your plastic AK-47. Also is runs against their “your body is the controller” hype.

    2. Well what is to stop you having a controller in your hand with Natal that has buttons/triggers
    – well again, nothing. But precision will not be so high. Its juts limitations of technology – see the bottom of this post.

    3. Well what’s to stop having a controller in my hand with accelerometers in it?
    – well probably Sony patents – its how their tech works.

    4. “Are you giving developers analogue sticks on your controller”
    - there are currently – its how they made the spray can work. And it makes sense that they have one for movement “al-la nunchuk”. I would expect to see them – otherwise it’s a epic fail on Sony’s behalf

    5. With Natal about “leaning to move”, etc
    - I think this kinda runs against the point of motion control – as soon as you start having to make the user do “un-natural actions” to carry out an action on screen then you are sacrificing one abstracted motion (pushing a button on a controller) for another (leaning). MS best use will be to have a 1:1 match between action in the world to action on the screen… which means different types of games.

    6. “Its all down to the software”
    - 100% absolutely true

    Here I have to err with Sony… I think it will be better for the “current types of games”. The Wii Motion + and Sony Motion Control will allow for those games we have now – for better control.

    The Microsoft system will allow a future generation of games taking on more interesting things – however I imagine most “core gamers” (MS’s biggest group) will not like this direction. So they will be eating more into the Wii market.

    Both MS and Sony have a mountain to climb.


    So a quick refresher on the technologies involved here folks:

    The Sony tech is just a back to front version of the Wii (Wii has "camera" in controller, Sony has it in the room). It uses accelerometers to track accurate “relative” movement and the camera to maintain a more granular “absolute” position. Distance is judges by size of the wand blob relative to camera (for Sony) and distance between IR dots (for Wii). Microsoft have a lot more freedom with their system but I am not sure they could claim sub-millimetre accuracy as they are relying solely on cameras and not accelerometers. Its great for detection of gross movement and the skeletal mapping is brilliant.

    Also bear in mind there is nothing stopping Sony doing similar skeletal mapping and voice recognition to MS using just the PSEye. To get the proper 3D experience that natal offers you would probably have to hold a wand so the PS3 can pick up the Z positioning.

    The other BIG win for MS is the integration to the dashboard – it looks practical and very useful from voice command switching on, to facial recognition logging in, to gesture controlled navigation. Again Sony could probably copy most of this using the PSEye as the patents in this area are fairly open… gesture control is being widely adopted by a number of manufacturers.
    Unfortunately I doubt the cost of Natal is going to be low enough to just use as “the ultimate remote control”

  • Dizzy #43 3 years ago

    "So will it be 'Dadadadadadadada' for machine guns, 'whoooosh - blammooooo!' for rocket launchers and 'fzzzhewfzzhew!' for lasers? "

    That would actually make a rather fun casual game ;)

    Natal would already enhance Guitar hero by letting your avatar move like you, something Wiimote or Sony thing cannot do at all. Just an example thought up by an EG reader is a previous thread.

  • frunk #44 3 years ago

    @Dizzy
    "Since the recognition (face and voice) is based on software running in the console (not in the device) it will cause a CPU hit either way"

    Err.. nope. Natal has that on device.

    Err.. nope... it has SOME of it on the device. It will probably have the 3D skeletal mapping, it will have "very basic" voice control - enough to get it to switch on and perhaps the dashboard voice commands (a dozen or so words). If they are clever they will have built in some of the basic gestures and possibly basic facial recoginition through landmark mapping - but little more. But that will be it... electronics are just not cheap enough to do much more than that without huge cost.

    After that you will be falling back to CPU cycles to go emotion, voice and advanced gesture control. Lionhead utilised "Microsoft's voice recognition libraries" to do Milo... that ain't on hardware. They will offload anything onto the CPU that is not necessary - it just makes economic sense.

    Certainly the CPU impact would be reduced by the hardware but not eliminated... to get similar to work on the PS3 you would have to sacrifice an SPU or two.

    Natal would already enhance Guitar hero by letting your avatar move like you, something Wiimote or Sony thing cannot do at all. Just an example thought up by an EG reader is a previous thread.

    Yes it can :) You only need a camera to do that. If you ever played any of the early PS2 Eyetoy games it did precisionly this. You don't need no "fancy pants" 3D tracking to make your avatar move in time to your movements. Its just that EA/Activision won't do it as the penetration of Xbox Vision/EyeTop/Natal, etc will not be high enough to justify it unless "prompted" with cash from the platform holders

    Cold hard economics - not fanboyism.
    Edited by frunk at 09/06/09 @ 14:02

  • Beano #45 3 years ago

    "Err.. nope. Natal has that on device. Natal device has a CPU (probably a DSP like thing) "

    Sure to do a simple processing of the scannes images from the cameras. Face recognition is still done by the console.

    Besides, if you were right (which you are not) - the CPU in the device would be very weak (and cheap to keep the cost down) and same processing could still be done by the console. The hit to the CPU would be a minor one.
    Edited by Beano at 09/06/09 @ 14:00

  • Les #46 3 years ago

    "I like Natal a lot in a 'Minority Report' kind of way, for browsing menus and control media"

    I'm pretty sure that Natal's roots were in the Windows devision. MS people saw Minority Report, first thought "That is cool" and then thought "how can we replicate this for Windows?". Problem is that the only thing that matters in a movie is whether it looks cool. Little thought is given to practical implications.

  • Beano #47 3 years ago

    Yes, Minority Report takes place in a nightmareish future... where we are all forced to use gestures to navigate simple menus and userinterfaces. Thanks Microsoft :)

  • Dizzy #48 3 years ago

    "Sure to do a simple processing of the scannes images from the cameras. Face recognition is still done by the console. "

    "Yes it can :) You only need a camera to do that. If you ever played any of the early PS2 Eyetoy games it did precisionly this. You don't need no "fancy pants" 3D tracking to make your avatar move in time to your movements."

    Simple? You guys have no clue... seriously.

    Basically the Natal device (sounds like a Star Trek torpedo) was devised to have a zero impact on 360 performance. It will actually process all the information in usable blocks for the 360 to process and the game/software. Obviously it will not tell you who's face it sees, that is something that will be done by the 360 but it will present that information pre-processed. The CPU in Natal is actually pretty serious. Depth cameras provide you with a point cloud of the surface of objects allowing you to do things that are simply impossible with a normal camera. It DOES NOT use scanned images from the camera. The camera is there only for other effects (like color recognition and reflections for example as seen in the Milo demo).
    Edited by Dizzy at 09/06/09 @ 14:30

  • Beano #49 3 years ago

    "same yadda yadda...The CPU in Natal is actually pretty serious. (etc)"

    If this it true (which I still doubt) - will this not make the device expensive?

  • Dizzy #50 3 years ago

    >If this it true (which I still doubt) - will this not make the device expensive?

    DPSs are very cheap and very powerful for the task they are designed for. I would assume it is a specialized piece of hardware like a DSP. Nobody knows at the moment until we open up a Natal device ;) Manufacture price is rumoured to be 100 quid... yes that is expensive, MS probably wants to bring this down before launching or pack in a killer game. Big chunk of that price will be the 3D sensor.
    Edited by Dizzy at 09/06/09 @ 14:41

  • MyPointIs #51 3 years ago

    I heard Natal can cook your food if you put it close.

  • tancredo #52 3 years ago

    As stated by MS, Natal will offer gaming based on three posibilities:

    - Controller only
    - Combination of controller plus Natal (voice and scheletal recognition)
    - Natal only

    One game will be able to offer one, two or the three control methods, whichever the player prefers.

    (I would think players would be able to map the Natal instructions/game reactions to their gaming needs, but that is just my own thought)

    I have been reading the complains of people about Natal requiring you to hold something in order to make the inmersion more believable. Besides the already mentioned posibility of holding the controller in some games, or the equally obvious holding a tennis raquet, a golf club or a plastic pistol, I remembered the reported work of Allard on a Magic Wand (better change the name) to be used in gaming, which I guess could be used in combination with the Natal. I read something about being already patented.


    Regarding the PS3 wand, I do not think developers would be so excited about Natal if the wand could achieve the same results, in terms of control posibilities, than the MS project
    Edited by tancredo at 09/06/09 @ 16:37

  • frunk #53 3 years ago

    Simple? You guys have no clue... seriously.

    Basically the Natal device (sounds like a Star Trek torpedo) was devised to have a zero impact on 360 performance. It will actually process all the information in usable blocks for the 360 to process and the game/software. Obviously it will not tell you who's face it sees, that is something that will be done by the 360 but it will present that information pre-processed. The CPU in Natal is actually pretty serious.

    Which is pretty much what I said - yeah the onboard CPU will be able to provide the skeletal map (in 3D space - granted), etc. It may even be clever enough to break down the speech into basic phonemes but that will be it.

    ZERO impact - no! The speech recognition libraries come with a massive CPU and memory overhead... the CPU - which is probably created from a FPGA will not be able to do that as it will not have dictionaries of vocabluary "you might use in a game in the right language". These devices are fast at what they do (as you said) but rarely have the memory to cope with generalities... this is the role of a general purpose CPUs - like the three inside the 360.

    It will provide the first level processing (heavyweight granted) but it WILL have an impact.

    ----------

    Anyway - back to subject. Natel is good - but for the type of gameplay we are used to I would think the Wii Motion plus and Sony system are more suited. Sony may be able to gradually gain teh iupper hand on pricing too, they will be able to make those wands for the same price as the DualShock 3 - the component count will be more or less the same. And the PSEye camera they are practically giving away these days...

    Next person who tells me the Wii is cheap I am gonna smack... I have spent more on it that any other console on bloody peripherals as its the console that tends to be played with by a group. Where as I only have 2 controllers for my PS3 and 360, I have 4 on the Wii...

    3 x Wii Remote (£30) + 3 x Nunchuck (£15) + now 4 x Motion Plus (£20) = £215 - which when you add on the price of a Wii = PS3 + 3 extra controllers = half a dozen 360's :)

    Also means Natal will have to "go some" to become unaffordable :)

    And more importantly - if anyone can answer... I have all of these consoles working in a home cinema setup with projector... so no lights. Wii works... if Sony has a light on the Wand then they stand a chance of working - although the camera is next to useless. Will natal work?

  • ronuds #54 3 years ago

    My question is: If someone's on the market for a console, and want a device other than the traditional controller to play their games, why would you buy a PS3 over a Wii? It's twice as expensive and will have many less games utilizing the controller. Plus, the controllers are so nearly identical, I doubt the average casual will know the difference.

    Natal on the other hand, might actually attract some new customers - because whether you hate it or not, it's a bit different. I just don't understand the purpose of Sony trying to make a splash by introducing the same product that's been on the market already for 3 years, but "a little" better.

    @ Frunk - you should do a little more research. Half of the questions and concerns you mention have already been addressed. No, you do not need lighting because Natal uses an infrared camera to detect motion. Infrared works without light.
    Edited by ronuds at 09/06/09 @ 16:37

  • Les #55 3 years ago

    "And more importantly - if anyone can answer... I have all of these consoles working in a home cinema setup with projector... so no lights. Wii works... if Sony has a light on the Wand then they stand a chance of working - although the camera is next to useless. Will natal work?"

    The wands have glowing balls at the end to allow for dark environments and colour change (so that multiple can be tracked and visually identified).

    Natal sports an infrared cam and presumably that would also allow it to work in dark surroundings.

  • frunk #56 3 years ago

    @ronuds
    No, you do not need lighting because Natal uses an infrared camera to detect motion. Infrared works without light.

    Er... no... basic physics. Infrared cameras require infrared light... most black and white cameras pick up infrared. When there is no light in a room - there is usually no IR wavelength light either. IR != heat.


    The Wiimotes only work because there is an IR source (the "sensor bar";) with IR LEDs in it. The basic B&W camera the Wiimote picks that up fine. I have a videocamera capable of IR - it works to about 12 inches until you switch in the IR illumination in which case its range gets to 3 feet. Show me an IR camera designed to work in the dark that does not come with an IR floodlight.

    The Natal to pick up the movement would need an IR source to illuminate 1-4 peeps... and forgive my ignorance but I did not see a "IR floodlight" as part of the Natal.

    Do NOT get confused between heat sensing and IR cameras... the first retails for thousands of pounds the other for a few quid.

    How much light does it need to work?
    Edited by frunk at 09/06/09 @ 16:52

  • Les #57 3 years ago

    " forgive my ignorance but I did not see a "IR floodlight" as part of the Natal."

    That's because it was still a prototype... ;)

  • Yaz #58 3 years ago

    The camera is 3DV's technology, hence the following Q&A session makes interesting reading (see link below), and answers many of the questions raised here (such as lighting conditions);

    http://www.gamasutra.com/php-bin/news_in...

  • frunk #59 3 years ago

    @ronuds - This time to answer your question

    My question is: If someone's on the market for a console, and want a device other than the traditional controller to play their games, why would you buy a PS3 over a Wii? It's twice as expensive and will have many less games utilizing the controller. Plus, the controllers are so nearly identical, I doubt the average casual will know the difference.

    Natal on the other hand, might actually attract some new customers - because whether you hate it or not, it's a bit different. I just don't understand the purpose of Sony trying to make a splash by introducing the same product that's been on the market already for 3 years, but "a little" better.

    If people are price sensitive then they will always take the low cost choice that has been marketed to them in the non-specialist press. They will buy a Wii... basically because all their freinds have. They will later be *SHOCKED* at the fact they could have bought a PS3 or 2 360s by the time they have the controllers they need... but that is another story.

    Breaking this market is something that neither Sony nor MS will manage at this late stage.

    I think MS are to be lauded for their brave product. Natal is genuinely innovative. And it is HIGHLY suited to the sorts of games that exist currently on the Wii. They have a chance of getting into that ,market IF they convince peeps that the 360 + Natal is:
    a) a better experience that the Wii (SOFTWARE, SOFTWARE, SOFTWARE)
    b) cheaper than the Wii (They will have to hope Big N will not drop their proce once they get some genuine competition for this to happen)

    That will be tough.

    Apart from that buyers of Natal will have the be fascinated by Peter M's "Milo vision" and the brave new games that the peripheral will spawn... tricky one to envisage. But I will remain resolutely hopeful in the hope the software industry suddenly grows balls and comes out with some innovative concepts. MS reliance on 3rd party devs will be the problem here. To get this thing really up and running you are probably need a lot of first party support... and Microsoft are small players compared to Sony and Nintendo.

    The final type of buyer will be those who want a "really cool" remote control... hey if works in the dark you have a buyer here... but you have to be slightly mad to spend that sorta cash on.

    I think the hardcore gamer who thinks they can enact their FPS or play a proper driving game with Natal will be sorely disappointed. The lack of accuracy and something tactile in the hands will be the problem here... see my first post. You have a choice in MarioKart to use the motion sensor or joypad - which do most peeps use?

    So we get to Sony... "in the middle" with the unsexy product. Yeah - its just a Wiimote with motion plus on steriods... but that has been that most people who currently play computer games actually want. We are not talking "mums and dads and the Wii Fit crowd here" - we are talking people who read Eurogamer.

    I remember getting the Wii and trying out CoD... it was shit. The Wiimote did not have the accuracy for FPS, nor the processing power to give you the visuals you want.

    This is the space Sony will fill - and to be honest its not a bad space... at least we can sit here and can talk about the games that it would work with. They also have the first party muscle to pull it off.

    However this is Sony - they are their own worst enemy - they will bring it out - with fanfare - forget to support it and wonder why everyone thinks its rubbish :)

  • frunk #60 3 years ago

    @Yaz

    I do hope you are right... I WANT it to work.

    However its not 3DV technology according to MS and this fair site. 3DV were probably only bought to secure MS's own patents:

    [link url=http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/e3-natal-not-derived-from-3dv
    ]http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/e3-nat...[/link]

  • Machiavellian #61 3 years ago

    @frunk
    Its the same technology and you can believe since MS did buy the company that they would use anything that was superior within their technology. There is a video where someone is sitting in a dark room only illuminated by the TV screen using this technology. Lighting is not an issue when it comes to the 3D mapping.

    Here is the patent that MS has for a motion controller that could work with Natal.
    [link url=http://news.teamxbox.com/xbox/16252/Microsoft-Patents-Wii-Remote-Killer-Game-Controller/
    ]http://news.teamxbox.com/xbox/16252/Micr...[/link]
    As you can see, the controller allows you the ability to have the controller in your hand but your fingers still remain free to perform gestures.


  • Yaz #62 3 years ago

    @frunk

    "However its not 3DV technology according to MS and this fair site. 3DV were probably only bought to secure MS's own patents:"

    MS only purchased 3DV in April, so it's true they aren't using a camera taken straight from 3DV themselves, but I think it's clear that the technology is essentially the same, albeit MS's version of the 3DV tech. I would also argue that if there are currently some technical difficulties with Natal, difficulties which 3DV had already solved, or areas where 3DV's tech is superior, then that could have been another reason why MS purchased 3DV, i.e. to improve Natal (as well as keeping a tighter hold on the technology, in case the competition stepped in).

    Hence that Q&A session tells us a lot about Natal. :)

  • Les #63 3 years ago

    "Hence that Q&A session tells us a lot about Natal. :)"

    Not really as it's all just words and no substance. The guy was clearly there to sell the 3DV stuff. And it worked as MS bought them. Only real playtime will tell us something worthwhile about Natal.

  • ronuds #64 3 years ago

    Right, because it's every day someone puts their whole reputation on the line by making up a bunch of stuff about their products. Did Kutaragi a lot of good.
    Edited by ronuds at 09/06/09 @ 22:19

  • Yaz #65 3 years ago

    I see Les, so in response to some of the discussions here, details in that Q&A session such as;

    "...you have your own illumination source, that enables you to work in any lighting conditions, including complete darkness -- there's no problem with that...."

    Those are just words and no substance? It seems to answer the question raised here about lighting conditions rather well imo.

    There's also information on 3DV's website which explains the technology further (and videos).

    Regarding playtime, well for now, the best we have are hands-on reports from E3, and from what I've read from numerous websites, the technology not only works, but it works really well and therefore has been well received.

  • Les #66 3 years ago

    "Those are just words and no substance? It seems to answer the question raised here about lighting conditions rather well imo."

    Call me cynical but I don't take a sales person's word. I want to see it in action or at the very least a report from a trustworthy source that has seen it in action. Till then I remain skeptical, especially given the vapourware strategies that are so common in the tech industry.

  • Yaz #67 3 years ago

    But Les, it has been seen in action at E3, every major gaming website have provided hands-on reports of Natal, including Eurogamer. So we do have "trustworthy source that has seen it in action". Haven't you bothered to read any of them?

    Natal exists, numerous people have provided hands-on reports, so it's certainly not vapourware.

    You're right to be skeptical of new technology, and you would have been right to remain skeptical if Natal was *only* seen during Microsoft's press conference, but with many hands-on reports of Natal during E3, I feel you're being skeptical for the sake of it. :-|

  • Les #68 3 years ago

    "But Les, it has been seen in action at E3, every major gaming website have provided hands-on reports of Natal, including Eurogamer. So we do have "trustworthy source that has seen it in action". Haven't you bothered to read any of them?"

    The ridiculous and obviously not working 3D break-out 'game', a useless paint program and a shaky burnout demos you mean?!

  • Yaz #69 3 years ago

    Like I said Les, you are being skeptical for the sake of it. The hands-on reports I've read have been very impressed with Natal so far.

  • Les #70 3 years ago

    "The hands-on reports I've read have been very impressed with Natal so far."

    Often the same people that were mightily impressed by Killzone 2's target renders... Video game journalists live on hype. Don't buy it.

  • davisorle #71 3 years ago

    Post deleted at 20:44:35 16-04-2012

  • Ryze #72 3 years ago

    There's still teh marketing and usability war to be won.

    Sony are SHIT at marketing their product recently, and any camera system is likely to run into faff issues when setting it up, where the camera isn't pointing at the user properly and the lighting is wrong, and faff, faff, faff...

    The Wii just works. The pointer does need the sensor bar, but it's pretty simple to get going, and regardless, loads of waggle shite just uses the Wiimote.

    Nintendo's marketing has also been fantastic at getting their family friendly message out. Microsoft have spent a lot of money on marketing, but their ads have been pretty shite, IMO.

    Sony could fail this on marketing and usability, even if the tech seems amazing.

    /waits...
    Edited by Ryze at 10/06/09 @ 19:07

  • Yaz #73 3 years ago

    Les wrote "Often the same people that were mightily impressed by Killzone 2's target renders... "

    Yes but you don't play renders.

    "Video game journalists live on hype. Don't buy it."

    Actually I don't buy it, but at the same time, I'm not going to ignore all their opinions on the idea that there's a trustworthy source somewhere which is the only one worth listening to. I choose to read as many reports as I can to find the areas most seem to be in agreement with, both for and against. Same with reviews. I then make up my own mind based upon the information I've gathered.

    You said you either have to see the technology for yourself or read "a report from a trustworthy source that has seen it in action". Well since it seems none of the hands-on reports of Natal so far are good enough for you, please name the source(s) you consider trustworthy on such matters.
    Edited by Yaz at 10/06/09 @ 21:34

  • man.the.king #74 3 years ago

    @MyPointIs

    "I heard Natal can cook your food if you put it close. "

    Yes it could probably cook your goose for you ;)
    Edited by man.the.king at 12/06/09 @ 06:45