Mythic shares biggest mistakes with WAR

By Oli Welsh Published 17 September, 2009

Too easy, not social enough, poor economy.

Warhammer Online executive producer Jeff Hickman has outlined what he feels were the biggest mistakes Mythic made with last year's high-profile MMO launch in an Austin Game Developers Conference seminar.

"It's been an interesting year for Warhammer," he admitted, according to Gamasutra.

The "three things that have haunted us for a year with Warhammer," said Hickman, were making the game too easy, not giving players enough reason to socialise, and a poor model for the in-game economy.

"There's a big difference between easy play and ease of use," he said. "But Warhammer, in PVE, in the beginning, is too easy. It doesn't make you thrilled to do it... The game has suffered immensely for it."

This had a knock-on effect on the second failing; the game is so solo-friendly that it gives players "little reason to socialise". "We had great ideas for all of these really cool social tools, and we built them into the game. But the game doesn't require friends. Part of it is that it's too easy," Hickman said.

Finally, Hickman confessed that the way in the in-game economy had been designed, albeit for good reasons, wasn't compelling.

"Our economy... we just missed the mark," he said. "If you look at the reasoning behind the economy, you'll see things like, 'Hey, we're not going to let gold farmers in our game.' 'We're going to try to make sure we have controlled inflation.' We had all the best reasons in our game, but what it caused us to do was build a game where economy is not important enough. Economy brings people together." Fixing the economy would be essential for the game's upcoming Korean launch, he noted.

Identifying the game's successes, Hickman picked out the public quest system which allows players to jump in to rolling live quests together, and open grouping, which allows players to slide in and out of groups automatically depending where they are and what they're doing.

Read our recent Warhammer Online re-review to find out whether we agree with Hickman's analysis.

Picture of Oli.

About Oli Welsh

Oli is Eurogamer's acting deputy editor and reviews editor and likes to take things one word at a time. He is among the best dressed people in South London.

Read more articles from Oli by visiting the Oli Welsh archive page.

You may also like...

Comments (24) Latest comment 2 years ago

Comments threads automatically close after 30 days, but please feel free to continue chatting on the forum!

  • George-Roper #1 2 years ago

    I really, really enjoyed WAR for a couple of months and then just lost interest.

    Can't really place exactly what it was but part of it was definitely around loot not being important enough and being far too easy to come by. I never used any in-game trading system, like an AH.

    I think the way that Mythic approached level ranges was also too in your face. 'Tiers' were referenced all the time, which in context to the game world itself was pure nonsense. It was jarring to see NPCs referring to tiers all the time and the way the maps were tiered up broke what should have been an open game world into very visible 'slots'. It was just too mechanical.

    The method that Blizz use isn't any different, except they don't thrust it into the players face all the time. The concept of tiers is there but it's in the background, handled by players themselves.

    MMORPG worlds need an identity, not to be neatly sectioned up into slices and then have those slices highly visible.

  • Dizzy #2 2 years ago

    Open grouping is really THE best thing WAR has added to the MMO genre. I can't live without it TBH. PQ are a really cool idea but rely on a big number of players being there. CO has reduced the number of PQs and that seems to work better.

    For me, the biggest problem with WAR is that, inherently, the game is self-destructive. To "win" and to get rewards players have to destroy and dominate the other side. Sadly this usually results in the losing side quitting or being stuck in the progress race (and becoming even weaker). So in the end all servers kinda slowly kill themselves. This will not be easy to solve. A lot of people have suggested adding a new faction to balance things out. That would be a great idea.... but too much work I reckon.

    TBH WAR has offered me the best moments in any MMO PvP/RvR wise. But my server Eltharion is now slowly fading away. My sub in now canceled (CO and LOTRO are back on the menu) but I will return to WAR when some new things are introduced in half a year or so.

  • drchocapic #3 2 years ago

    He forgot shitty engine.

  • Bodd #4 2 years ago

    So after all this time Mythic still have no idea what they're doing. The real top three issues with WAR were:
    1) Dull repetitive endgame that encouraged avoiding RvR in favour of RvEing empty instances;
    2) Awful class balance (I believe the Marauder, my first 40, is still left unfixed);
    3) Appallingly poor client and server performance
    Edited by 1 at 17/09/09 @ 11:09

  • Eraysor #5 2 years ago

    Less QQ, more...development!

  • Kremlik Verified Co-Founder, Crash To Desktop #6 2 years ago

    I noticed they skipped over it's biggest flaw: The soild lack of a reason to ACTALLY COMBAT PLAYERS.

    By just saying 'we didn't give any reasons to solcialise' isn't enough, by making the game conpletly built around farming npcs in RVR, makes it no better then what Blizzard did with AV - it's NOT pvp when you can 'win' without having to touch a player to do so - This is totally againest the game and the IP in general, until they actally fix the core problem of WAR being more geared towards PVE and fighting NPCS then actally fighting the other faction in a 'war', this game will never get back on track.

  • KDR_11k #7 2 years ago

    What does "easy" mean in the context of an MMORPG? That you don't need to grind your numbers as much to beat some enemies? That you don't need to hit the "use potion" button as much?

  • Dizzy #8 2 years ago

    "until they actally fix the core problem of WAR being more geared towards PVE and fighting NPCS then actally fighting the other faction in a 'war'"

    Did you actually play this? Nobody does PvE on my server... everything is RvR and PvP.

  • orakio #9 2 years ago

    I think he sums up some key flaws in making the game lasting. I believe class issues are only minor flows in the whole. Like George Roper, I lost interest after 2 or 3 months (given I was in beta for a few months too).
    They did improve on so many key features in MMO's, and I did enjoy my time in there a lot. Public Quests for example, are excellent!

  • Gaol #10 2 years ago

    He also forgot stodgy combat. It's nothing to do with difficulty, WoW is super-easy in the early stages.

  • Ornithophobe #11 2 years ago

    Maybe if you'd made an mmoRPG based on the actual Warhammer RPG (WFRP) it would have helped a bit....

  • Kremlik Verified Co-Founder, Crash To Desktop #12 2 years ago

    @Dizz - I was playing this for a while and 9 times out of 10 it's people saying 'this is being defended' or 'the zerg are comming - run' thats what turned me off from playing the game - WAR 'rewarded' players for avoiding the combat.

    what made this worse was when LotD hit, that basically turned into a 'now it's your turn' style of game - one faction left the area when the game accounced the lockdown and then those players went on to take the now undefended keeps as the other faction was busy farming the PQs and instance in LotD for the latest loot

    For a dev group comming from one of the reported 'best' PVP/RVR experience in DAoC and with an IP that screams about faction combat and bloody battles - WAR is FAR from what it should be, the game is just backwards :(

    I'm hoping this does an EVE and after a few years of being basically dead it can rebuild itself back into a nishe powerhouse

  • Rubarack #13 2 years ago

    It's disturbing, because a lot of those are exactly what I want out of a MMO. It was only poor server balance that put me off WAR, if an MMO really needs grinding for loot to be a success then there will never be one that's fun to play.

  • hoof #14 2 years ago

    It is a shame the game is so flawed, as at a basic level it is some of the most fun PvP I have had in an MMO. The biggest strong point to me is the ease with which you can join with other players and fight for a common goal, it is just a shame that the way those goals work is a bit broken. Odd that they feel there is a lack of social interaction, because in a world where most MMOs seem to focus on making sure players can solo through the content, WAR at least encouraged grouping, and it is the only MMO I have played recently where I knew that within 5 minutes of logging on, I would be fighting in a warband with other players.

  • sneetch #15 2 years ago

    Wow. Amazed to see piss-poor server and client architecture didn't make it onto that list. Or indeed anything about the RvR, I guess that means that they're happy with RvR?

    Open warfare in WAR was excellent when it happened but it rarely happened. A major part of that, I think, was the ease of getting around the world. In WAR people would jump to zones just to try to get the Influence and Renown when it's capped or to avoid fighting the enemy zerg or having to attack defended keeps. That wouldn't happen in WoW simply because of the 10-15 minutes of flight between zones.

    As for the easy PVE, hell yeah, it's ridiculous. Not just on an individual PC vs mob scale either (although my archmage could win by autoattack any same level mob in melee): any game where you see two mobs standing side by side apparently having a conversation (judging by the little gestures and head jiggles in their animation) and you can pull one without the other even breaking his animation cycle is just fundamentally broken. It removes any need for careful pulling.

    @Dizzy
    He means that you capture keeps and objectives by killing the NPCs there, a lot of people actively avoid fighting enemy players (skipping zones to attack undefended keeps or to avoid the zerg). It's a real problem in that game.
    Edited by 1 at 17/09/09 @ 12:14

  • Zeali #16 2 years ago

    WAR is a awesome MMO but i have to agree with #2
    I'm also playing at eltharion and it's slowly dying. Game is fun to play and WAR is the best PvP(RvR) game i've ever played.

    It's shame that T4 doesn't have enough appeal to keep coming back and play.
    I see myself only logging to WAR couple times a day to see is there any big battles to participate. Otherwise there just isn't anything to do.

    It's really shame because i love the game so much.

    While i wait for the devs to do something(hopefully) for the game Aion waits me.
    Edited by 1 at 17/09/09 @ 12:27

  • Dizzy #17 2 years ago

    "He means that you capture keeps and objectives by killing the NPCs there, a lot of people actively avoid fighting enemy players (skipping zones to attack undefended keeps or to avoid the zerg). It's a real problem in that game. "

    Ha yes... ok... I got that wrong.

  • Orange #18 2 years ago

    I don't think easy pve should figure into their list of faults at all, almost the opposite I would say.

    The whole project was flawed, trying to take on WoW when WoW had all the advantages.

  • skullstorm #19 2 years ago

    I like WAR and have enjoyed my time in the game but personally my biggest beef with it was that it's RvR felt like a step backwards from DAoC (my fault I guess for wanting it to expand the rvr experience I had there) and it felt quite limited and lacking in open RvR without 3 sides. Don't get me wrong though, I enjoyed PvP in WAR and have had some amazing battles but in the long run RvR just didn't feel like RvR to me. I'm looking forward to seeing where the game goes and I hope that they focus on improving open RvR.
    Edited by 1 at 17/09/09 @ 15:36

  • SpeedyThing #20 2 years ago

    It was a promising game but I don't think I played for more than a week. I think their biggest mistake was making a game that was a lot like Warcraft but in many ways not as good. Yes it did some things better but there was too much that just didn't feel quite right.

    Hopefully Mythic will learn from all their mistakes and make a 40k game or something else that breaks the fantasy mould. Even better would be a game that has completely different mechanics to the Everquest model... quite why most MMOs have to have the same mechanics beyond me.

  • Johnhost #21 2 years ago

    Guess what ever MMO developer is realizing...Everquest is the way you make an MMO. World of Warcraft is the ONLY MMO to copy Everquest's model for success. And low and behold they are the biggest. Everquest II even failed by changing the formula even more.

  • George-Roper #22 2 years ago

    Everquest II even failed by changing the formula even more.

    Everquest 2 failed because it wasn't a true successor to Everquest. The game itself was quite far through development without even being affiliated with SOE. They bought it then went about shoe-horning the EQ world into the mechanics that were in place, which failed on so many levels it was staggering.

    I vividly recall the teaser trailer for EQ2 that showed a group of players on a dungeon crawl, whilst a dragon was above them, stomping around and making dust and rocks fall into the corridors. It was astounding. Shame the actual game was nothing like that.

    Speaks volumes that SOE have shifted into rose-tinted glasses mode, by putting expansions out that are almost entirely based on EQ zones and encounters. They recognized that they weren't luring their old EQ players back without that sense of familiarity but it was too little too late, for some.

  • butler` #23 2 years ago

    This guy's comments seem to further the notion that Mythic are almost entirely deluded. And people wonder why no one is giving WoW a run for its money :\

  • skullstorm #24 2 years ago

    How on earth did EQ2 'fail'? Oh, right, you mean that because it didn't reach wows number of subs or worldwide popularity it must have. It doesnt matter if EQ2 wasnt a true successor to EQ, they are just completely different games now with their own fanbases.

    The games been running well since it's release, it has a good amount of subscribers and a loyal fanbase that enjoy that particular game, it has continued development and i'm plenty sure they are happy with the way things have turned out. So I don;t see how they have failed.

    If people want EQ they play EQ, if they want EQ2 they play EQ2, if people want WoW they play WoW. Stop making everything a race where every game outside of WoW is a fucking failure.
    Edited by 1 at 18/09/09 @ 12:11