Mass Effect 3 tweaked for "larger market"

By Fred Dutton Published 4 May, 2011

Sequel more commercial than ME1, ME2.

BioWare is in the process of realigning its Mass Effect franchise to appeal to a larger audience, according to EA boss John Riccitiello.

Speaking during an investor Q&A today, Riccitiello explained that Mass Effect 3 will boast greater mass appeal than its two predecessors.

"One of the things that Ray Muzyuka and the team up in Edmonton have done is essentially step-by-step adjust the gameplay mechanics and some of the features that you'll see at E3 to put this in a genre equivalent to shooter-meets-RPG," he said, "and essentially address a much larger market opportunity than Mass Effect 1 and Mass Effect 2 began to approach.

"We're huge believers in the IP and are purposefully shifting it to address a larger market opportunity."

As revealed earlier today, the much-anticipated sequel to last year's acclaimed sci-fi epic will now ship out in early 2012, rather than later this year as originally promised.

Picture of Fred.

About Fred Dutton

Fred Dutton is Eurogamer's US news editor, based in Washington DC.

Read more articles from Fred by visiting the Fred Dutton archive page.

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Comments (168) Latest comment 10 months ago

Comments threads automatically close after 30 days, but please feel free to continue chatting on the forum!

  • BillMurray #1 10 months ago

    Hmm.

  • bebox2010 #2 10 months ago

    Call of warcraft in space?

  • darkmorgado #3 10 months ago

    So in other words, they are dumbing it down even more.

    Didn't know that was possible after ME2.
    Edited by 1 at 04/05/11 @ 23:36

  • coolbritannia #4 10 months ago

    Hmm. 2 was pretty Mass Market.

  • dsmx #5 10 months ago

    So were getting gear of war in space then?

  • chaywa #6 10 months ago

    Surely you do that at the start of a trilogy, rather than at the end of one.

  • Gaol #7 10 months ago

    Is the third game in a trilogy really the best place to start changing the target audience?

  • ArcticGabe #8 10 months ago

    Bad news, remember Dragon Age 2?
    ME2 was already way too simple for an RPG.

  • dirtysteve #9 10 months ago

    Can I just have one more awesome game? Then you can go Halo wars on it.

  • Shikasama #10 10 months ago

    These investor calls don't half make the games that get made sound fucking dirty.

  • darkmorgado #11 10 months ago

    @dirtysteve

    But Halo Wars was good...

  • Syrette #12 10 months ago

    That certainly does not sound good.

  • karaokequeen3 #13 10 months ago

    oh. dear.

  • CaptainKid #14 10 months ago

    This can only mean even more trimmed (read removed) RPG features..
    I thought ME2 was spot on, and even trimmed slightly to much with regards to available weapons and loot variety.(jeey, found more credits!)

    Goddammit.

  • Kerome #15 10 months ago

    Uhhh... I thought that's what they did when they turned a pretty average RPG into a pretty average shooter.

    Look, I love ME, but if they keep chopping and changing it around it's never going to build up into something great in it's own right. I mean, are they going to start turning it into COD or Halo? Plenty of others have tried, and failed.

  • Mark1412 #16 10 months ago

    Not the most encouraging news, ME2 was a stretch on the RPG front. Any more goes and it's going to be a shooter with dialogue trees.

  • RodHull #17 10 months ago

    Probably do so by dropping the letters R, P and G and replacing them with F,P and S. The bastards.

  • Lexx87 #18 10 months ago

    So they've made it shit, then, basically?

    Great.

  • hiddenranbir #19 10 months ago

    The shit sells, so more fools us.

  • Alatair #20 10 months ago

    Are Bioware owned by Activision, because bugger me if they're not one and the same?

  • gjgjg #21 10 months ago

    Not going to be a crowd pleasing move, ironically.

  • DUFFKING #22 10 months ago

    Calm down dears. It's just a one comment.

    Unless they've just removed all this stuff in the last month:

    [link url=http://www.eurogamer.net/articl es/2011-04-08-mass-effect-3-details-no-multiplayer
    ]http://ww w.eurogamer.net/articles/2011-0...[/link]

    Llet me quote. 'The RPG elements of Mass Effect are being expanded for the third game. Skill trees will be larger, and powers can evolve several times.'
    Edited by 2 at 05/05/11 @ 01:22

  • lobotomy42 #23 10 months ago

    I was on the fence about ME3 after the disaster that was Dragon Age 2, but this pretty much confirms that I won't bother with it.

  • Cowbomb #24 10 months ago

    So they delayed it so they could strip out even more RPG elements then?

  • TheRealBadabing #25 10 months ago

    Good point Duffking, I'll try to remain optimistic too.

  • glottis0 #26 10 months ago

    I really don't think that the things that made Dragon Age 2 slightly disappointing (no not a disaster, it was slightly disappointing at worst) were the 'dumbing down'. The 'dumbing down' essentially ammounted to:
    1. Shifting difficulty levels so you had to click a word that said 'Hard' if you wanted it to be hard.
    2. A camera that was closer to the character (but still let you see everything).
    3. Fun and interesting animations for spells that used to be dull.
    4. Removed the (completely fucking boring) part of origins where you had to juggle 9 peoples' trousers after every encounter.

    The things that made Dragon Age 2 disappointing however, were:
    1. Slightly dull story that didn't really go anywhere.
    2. Horrendous reuse of assets that came across as plain lazy.
    3. Slightly corny 'romance' options that were much too in your face and had horrible 'pay off' animations if you weren't completely put off by everyone that moved just-so-happening to fall madly in love with your character, no matter how nastily you'd ruined his face as soon as the option to adjust Emo-band-frontman default Hawke appeared.

    These two (completely objective and unanimously decided ;P) lists have no common points. So anyway my argument: getting ME3 to appeal to a larger audience won't make it shit - making it shit will make it shit.

  • stryker1121 #27 10 months ago

    Need details...in the last Game Informer the devs were talking up weapon customization (tho not much about character customization) as a nod to the RPG crowd. But the last thing ME3 needs to do any more "streamlining" of the game.

  • Embar #28 10 months ago

    It confuses me what EA consider to be "good PR" these days...

  • RevanNL #29 10 months ago

    Oh dear god, they're turning ME into a COD clone aren'tthey?

  • Jay-ITFC #30 10 months ago

    ME2 was my fave game of 2010. Love the franchise and seriously worried about this latest news...

  • Razz #31 10 months ago

    LOL someone went through this entire comment thread and negged every post, what a fugging tool.

  • DozyKipper #32 10 months ago

    The addition of multiplayer sounds right. Why else are DICE helping out?

  • CraigMcG #33 10 months ago

    so another dragon age 2 approach?
    I'm losing faith in bioware

  • Deadly_Spike #34 10 months ago

    Bioware are either selling themselves out here or are being forced by EA.
    Dragon Age 2 was the biggest disappointment for me in the last couple of years. The re-use of areas, no visual difference to armour, lack of exploration etc. And did it appeal to the mass market - No more than the 1st going by like for like sales over the same time period.

    EA and Bioware need to learn not to bite the hand that feeds it.

  • WinterSnowblind #35 10 months ago

    I've mostly been defending Bioware for DA2. While I think it was a rushed game that felt more like an expansion for a sequel and that the changes were 100% unnecessary.. I don't think it was overly "dumbed down" or completely ruined. They tried something different and I'm willing to write it off as a mistake.

    However, if they are planning on doing the same thing to ME3 then I'm definitely going to lose interest, not only in ME and DA but any Bioware developed game in general.

    Hopefully what they mean by "wider audience" is bringing back some of the RPG fans they lost with DA. I don't see how they could turn it into more of a shooter and suddenly deciding to add multiplayer this late in the game doesn't make much sense either, surely this is the sort of thing that would have been discussed when they were planning the game, it's not like multiplayer suddenly appeared overnight and became a massively popular thing.

  • rottingyoda #36 10 months ago

    Dragon Effect III - IP Falling

    Let me be wrong. Really.

    Just had a flash in my head of what they meant by broader appeal. Marcus Fenix Vanguard. Two of my favourite characters and classes. I bet they go together well like some of my other favourites:

    - Steak in a vodka sauce
    - Paedophilia and Gary Glitter
    Edited by 1 at 05/05/11 @ 02:04

  • Windsong #37 10 months ago

    Guess I know how I'm acquiring this now

    (sigh)

  • Hunam #38 10 months ago

    Larger market = more shooting bits as usual. Same thing with most games now. It seems all these unique games seem to want to converge on just being boring shooters with each new iteration. Mass Effect, Dead Space, Uncharted. All 3 seem to want to give up their starting points to become just another third person shooter.

  • 32768Colours #39 10 months ago

    "We're huge believers in the IP and are purposefully shifting it to address a larger market opportunity."

    What a contradiction! If you believe in the IP so much, why alter the game just to appeal to the sort of people who only ever buy FIFA and COD? I don't mind if they simply mean the combat is getting the tightness of a bespoke shooter, just so long as its not to the detriment of the RPG elements. Why must good combat and good narrative be mutually exclusive? Sadly I don't think this will be the case. I expect its more to do with the cash-cow of online multiplayer being far too tempting for EA to ignore.

    Anyway, what's the point in making the third part appeal to a larger market than the first two, when you really need to have played the first two games to get maximum enjoyment out of part 3? I could understand more if the games were linked by a franchise title, but not by the story itself. All they're likely to do in the case of Mass Effect though is annoy existing fans whilst falling short of whatever greedy aspirations they have for the future of the "IP".

    ME1 felt fresh and original, not perfect, but it held much promise. So its sad to so blatantly see the greed of big business trampling all over the creative process like this. Thank goodness for the resurgence of the indie scene. Full price gaming is rapidly becoming little more than a £45 password to let you shoot people online.

  • Ahskay #40 10 months ago

    You all worry too much. A magazine overhere had the world exclusive preview and by making it more appealing for a larger market they just mean they go a little battlefield on the shooting parts. Dice is involved also for the weapon sounds. They also want to bring the action closer to you with a decent A.I. this time. Normal is the new very hard mode. As for the RPG elements, you will have the chance to really customize your char on a higher level with even detailed options for certain powers. Basically they are going all out with the last one and want to achieve that perfect balance between a shooter and a rpg. So stop worrying all and wait for a proper preview instead of panicking over a short press item that tells you nothing about the game.

  • TAPNGO #41 10 months ago

    the slow death of the core gamer:(

  • Nero89 #42 10 months ago

    What?!? How can you possibly dumb down Mass Effect 2 any more???? Gawd, you've gotta love EA.

  • sabbede #43 10 months ago

    Oh my god they ruined it.

  • Half-assed #44 10 months ago

    I love the smell of nerd rage in the morning.

  • Vixremento #45 10 months ago

    Dumbed down...maybe (well after only having played the DA 2 demo I'd say more than likely). I expect ME3 to implement fantastic FPS elements like we had in Doom and Doom II (why would you want to look up and down?).

    However this isn't the bit that ticks me off the most - it's the fact that they've delayed it until early next year...I'm pretty sure it's to make sure that they fit into a more profitable timeframe more than anything else - I was really looking forward to it being released THIS YEAR.

    Ah well...it just means (like many I'm sure) that I'll settle for the standard version of this game (as opposed to what was going to be a pre-order of whatever special/collectors edition) and it won't be on my must buy list until after having read several reviews (I'd say I did this for Dragon Age 2 but I didn't enjoy the original DA anyway...and the DA2 demo sucked).

  • Inmediasress #46 10 months ago

    Didn't they promise that ME3 will have more rpg elements then ME2 had?
    I don't believe anything from them anymore for me Bioware is dead and gone.
    Anyway People should avoid being burned and stop preordering games even if you want it so much wait till its out and has some reviews not the paid for ones but some unbiased ones.
    They lied trough their teeth with DA2 so yeah I would not be surprised if they really put in some kind of online multiplayer or made a complete fps out of it. Maybe that's why they delayed it.
    I don't think they completely understand or Ea does not at least that Bioware suffered a lot of PR damagae with the garbage called DA2 and it will influence the sales of ME3 and coupled with idiotic statements like making it more casual wont help either.

  • Dr_Wookiee #47 10 months ago

    Mass Appeal 3

  • GiarcYekrub #48 10 months ago

    I'm hoping for space combat, I'm pretty sure we've been promised Space combat eventually and this is the concluding part of the trilogy, I think its over due. I'd Esspecially like depending on my choices Rachni,Geth,Alliance,Turian,Asari,Flotilla,Cerberus ships in my fleet

  • sirtacos #49 10 months ago

    FFS. I wish BioWare had never been bought out by EA.

  • Anciegher #50 10 months ago

    I don't like the sound of this...

    Wasn't this exactly what made Dragon Age 2 suck?

  • GiarcYekrub #51 10 months ago

    One of the best things about ME is the shooty bit aren't overly long, and there will be a plot point in a max 3 rooms time any streching of these sections will IMO destroy the pacing. Anyway I've already decided that ME3 will be about my Renegade Shepard and her quest for redemption and shes a biotic so not too much shooting

  • metalangel #52 10 months ago

    Remember when Bioware said being owned by EA wasn't going to change anything?

  • TheNinkyNonk #53 10 months ago

    Too late. I didn't like the first two as I'm more of a shooter than an rpger and I'm not about to get on board that far into a story arc. Pointless exercise, Bioware.

  • Sodding_Gamer #54 10 months ago

    This is ridiculous. Mass 2 was dumbed down enough for the mass audience. And ffs Mass 1 wasn't even complicated to begin with! The best way to target a larger audience is just do one thing, which you already did for ps3. Which was the comic. Nothing else needs changing for gods sake!

  • L0cky #55 10 months ago

    TheNinkyNonk has a good point.

    I really wanted to get into Mass Effect but I just haven't been able to find the time for such an expansive game.

    I'm not going to be playing ME3 unless I've played ME and ME2 first; so if they're making ME3 to appeal to people like us then they're wasting their time and just risk pissing off their existing player base.

  • LHH #56 10 months ago

    ME3 confirmed for facebook piece of casual shit. Fuck it man I really loved this series too :(

  • Rack #57 10 months ago

    We're huge believers in the IP and that's why we're demanding Bioware drive it into the fucking ground.

  • the_dudefather #58 10 months ago

    This story is the EG equivalent of 'EU to BAN Pork Pies due to 'elf and safety' in terms of reader rage

  • liveinabin #59 10 months ago

    So it's just a FPS now. Good grief. Why are they so certain that no-one likes RPGs? RPGs are the reason why Bioware got to be as big as it did. This is truly pathetic, every publisher seems adamant that First Person Shooters are the only genre that anyone is ever going to play.

  • Genji #60 10 months ago

    I think people are jumping to conclusions a bit. Games can have mass market appeal and still be great.

    I'm not going to make decisions about it until I hear more about what exactly they've changed. Maybe they're just rejigging planet scanning or something.

  • bad09 #61 10 months ago

    Hmmm, is it me or Bioware turning poo these days? ME2 was no where near as good as 1, so if they mean dumbing it down even more thats a real Matrix Revolutions ending to the trilogy (by that I mean arse ending). Still I wasn't expecting much after the disappoinment of 2 anyway, will still be finishing the story despite them using some imposter in all the shots of Shephard (I've said it before I look nothing like that).

    I just hope that by now Bioware have heard about a little thing called the windows controller (apparently gamepads work on PC, who knew ?). Pinnacle works but isn't the same and it's not like the game is really any different from the console versions console wise.

  • Hantheman #62 10 months ago

    Oh God. Bioware need to seppuku to save their already tarnished reputation.

  • Genji #63 10 months ago

    Really? ME2 was "nowhere near as good as 1"? Honestly I think you have blinders on if you think that. In many ways, the second game was an improvement!

  • StooMonster #64 10 months ago

    Well that explains the delay then.

    I can imagine the scene, Bioware team presenting update to EA and pointed headed boss says "That's OK, making a sequel is good and low risk but ... I want you to make it ... more commercial!" Bioware guys jaws drop. "You've got another three months."

  • bad09 #65 10 months ago

    @ Genji

    Not really. They took away a lot of the fun from the first with the inventory, mako. The plot was weaker and didn't have the power and spectacle of 1. The new characters were uninteresting, It was more linear and you spent the whole game go find this person and that person only to do it then get end game (which was a really silly end game at that). Even those loading screens which shattered the immersion of the first game (of all the silly complaints to actually listen to Bioware).

    It was more a third person shooter with a really boring mini game. I left ME1 breathless, I left ME2, careless sadly.

  • ISmoke #66 10 months ago

    Don't mess up my favourite franchise this generation.
    Don't do it.

  • Grogmonkey #67 10 months ago

    Come on guys, let's be sensible for a moment. Look at the context for this 'announcement': it's the CEO of the publisher in a Q&A with investors. That means someone asked a question about how ME3 is going to make them a bunch of money.

    Here are some things investors do not want to hear: "We have expanded the hardcore, nerd RPG bits to appeal solely to the niche market that is already buying our product. This will increase our profits on the series by exactly 0%."

    Here are some things investors DO want to hear: "We are making it more accessible, specifically the shooty bits because those are popular, so there's a really good chance more people are going to buy it, increasing our profits by 12000%."

    These two statements do not necessarily preclude each other. The shooty bits of Mass Effect CAN be better, and that would make it 'more mainstream'. That doesn't mean it doesn't have any RPG bits anymore. Hardcore, core-satsifying RPG mechanics are just not things you tell investors about. Because they don't care.

  • Dubya #68 10 months ago

    Oh dear, this probably means that ME is no longer an RPG but instead a third-person shooter.
    Ironically, that's the point at which I WON'T bother getting the game. My contribution to EA's (failed) marketing strategy. Following the same path as Dragon Age...down a slippery slope.
    Edited by 1 at 05/05/11 @ 08:44

  • mAc062 #69 10 months ago

    Mass appeal you say, destorying a game for more profit is more like it. The way things are heading we will all be playing games that only require one button press and the odd waggle to see you to the end with no chance of dying or penalty of any sort.

  • Centrifugal #70 10 months ago

    Almost everyone in this comments section is uninformed. Mass Effect 3 is adding RPG elements back into the game after ME2 stole them away.

  • 5h1nj1 #71 10 months ago

    God, I hate the Riccitiello guy. Every time he makes an announcement, it's bad news for gamers. Every time. Even those that looked as good news at start turned out to be bad news in the end.

  • JahB #72 10 months ago

    good, maybe they finally add some decent gameplay.

  • username84 #73 10 months ago

    Disappointed but not surprised.

  • jablonski #74 10 months ago

    I played the ME2, and correct me if I'm wrong, but a huge percentage of it was shooting - FPS style.
    If they improve the way these FPS sections work then I don't have a problem. Because I found them pretty dull and repetitive at times

  • Doctor_What #75 10 months ago

    Could we fire John Ricitello and get Bing Gordon in charge please? He's awesome.

  • Douche #76 10 months ago

    @darkmorgado

    In what way was ME2 dumbed down over ME1? The second one was vastly superior in my opinion. It played much better and there was no need to constantly dip into menus and out of the game.

    I would rather Bioware didn't adjust the gameplay from Mass Effect 2 - i thought they nailed it.

  • Daddy-Doom-Bar #77 10 months ago

    Well this has now gone from a pre order to a 'wait and see what the reviews say'.

    /pre-order cancelled.

  • Gumersindo #78 10 months ago

    Ok docs. I'll buy Mass Effect 3 if you don't do anything stupid with it. Remember it's the end of Shepard, so don't screw this.

    Multiplayer stuff in ME3? That's bad news. Leave it for "World of Mass Effect"
    Edited by 1 at 05/05/11 @ 09:35

  • Phantom_Dynamite #79 10 months ago

    There was me hoping it was going to be a little of ME1 and ME2 mixed together, what a fool I am, how can you get more mass market than 2.
    First Dragon Age now this news whats going on Bioware you make RPGs so why you fucking over your fans.

  • anomagnus #80 10 months ago

    You want to know whos to blame for this. All the bitching whiners on this thread. RPG fans are the biggest problem with RPGs, and i'm saying that as someone that loves RPGS.

    You want AAA titles, with multi million dollar budgets, but with mechanics that might appeal to a million, 1.5 million users.

    Tough shit guys, that won't fly in todays market.

    The only thing that makes me smile from all this, is that the people that do the most bitching about it being dumbed down, they're a minority, a collection of whinging beardies on forums.

    I still can't wait for this game. I haven't played a game since ME2 that even came close to it.

  • Dave_McCoy #81 10 months ago

    After my earlier comment about not minding the delay, I'm not so sure now. ME2 was streamlined enough, I hope they're not delaying it to make it more 'generic'

  • telboy007 #82 10 months ago

    Loving the knee jerk reactions, loving it.

  • GamesConnoisseur #83 10 months ago

    If he instead said at INVESTORS meeting, 'we have expanded the skill trees and made RPG mechanisms more deeper and complex...'

    Shares plummets

    So i m taking with pinch of salts re giving information targeting at investors and another at gamers, as investors will perk up at 'shooters, fps, COD, GTA etc'

  • Freek #84 10 months ago

    That's a damn shame. You'd think that after the reaction to ME2 they'd work towards integrating more RPG aspects in a user friendly way.
    Like putt in more weapon option, more armor customization, open up the levels a bitt more. The shooting and controls were already polished to perfection, it just needed a bitt more RPG flavor.
    To hear them go in a more shooty direction is dissapointing. And seems silly to do when it's part 3 of a trilogy. The conclusion of a game series that alraedy has a steady fanbase.

    It is an investors call but to go so far as to direcetly mislead the people funding your studio also seems a little strange.
    Edited by 1 at 05/05/11 @ 09:46

  • superflyninja #85 10 months ago

    oooh this isnt sounding good at all. Off to a bad start when they replaced the composer for the game( I still listen to the ME1 ost) and now all this shite. The changes made in ME2 made no sense. RPGs are about immersion,loot and progression in my books. All of which were compromised in ME2. (Dont get me started on the removal of the mako and planetside exploration). Whatever about the likes of COD being designed by committee, this kind of shit doesnt fly with a Bioware game

  • StanMadeley #86 10 months ago

    Miserable news. Lasted about a couple of hours playing DA2. I might sound old fashioned but I miss inventory management. I don't ask for much except the ability to moving my elf's Underpants of Mighty Resistance to my dwarf for a +1 gain to his constitution. So long as I have that, the story is secondary.

  • superflyninja #87 10 months ago

    I agree, look at Torchlight for an example of PROPER STREAMLINING of inventory management. Its very clever and none of the flexibility is lost.

  • Subdominator #88 10 months ago

    "Have they learned nothing from Dragon Age 2 ? Do they really want to destroy both their IPs ?"

    Of course they have, that's why they're doing this. Mass Effect 2 sold better than Mass Effect, Dragon Age 2 sold better than Dragon Age. I don't care if Mass Effect 3 is even more streamlined than ME2, I just hope the story is as good as in the first game. TBH the inventory management simulation in Mass Effect was pretty dumb, I'm glad they got rid of it. However I'm not glad that they kicked out everything that resembles an RPG.

  • WinterSnowblind #89 10 months ago

    My god, I have never seen so many whiny, uninformed posts in my life. All they have said is that they want the game to appeal to a wider audience, no where have they said that this means adding more shooter elements or dumbing it down. How could they even do that without turning it into a third person shooter with no cut-scenes?

    Early previews have said the exact opposite of these conclusions people are jumping to: the game will feature more RPG elements, more indepth customisation, stats and inventory systems. Obviously by "bigger market" they're aiming for the RPG fans they unfortunately lost touch with.

  • Darren #90 10 months ago

    I find it odd that BioWare would try to streamline Mass Effect 3 to appeal to a wider market when it is in the third in a trilogy of games. I could understand it though if it was an entirely new trilogy, separate from the current storyline, or a new series altogether. :?

    I suspect the vast majority of people who want and will buy the final instalment will be those that played the first and second games. I know Mass Effect 2 was released for the PS3 without them having played the first but at least they'll get to play two out of three. I suspect myself that it won't hold much appeal for newcomers unless they decide to try the earlier games first. And if they do and subsequently enjoy them then they may take offence at the dumbing down in the last chapter. Hmmm.

  • edhe #91 10 months ago

    Hey EA - i don't buy games often, i rent them. I've bought both Mass effect games. I've bought all the DLCs and i've bought the novels on kindle.

    I don't do that for "popular franchises" i do that for good ones. Now for the love of god i hope you don't bollock up the greatest scifi game since freelancer.

  • superflyninja #92 10 months ago

    @wintersnowblind
    After seeing what EA did to ME2 further talk of dumbing down, sorry"broadening the appeal" is a scary prospect. This is a much loved game universe....

  • WinterSnowblind #93 10 months ago

    I agree that "broadening the appeal" is poorly worded, especially after DA2. But it does not mean dumbing down, it could mean that they're adding RTS elements or Mario Kart sections. No where have they said it means they want it to be more of a shooter.. and again, the game informer preview actually states that this one has much more indepth RPG elements.

    Being cautious is one thing, but I don't understand why people are assuming the exact opposite of what we've been told.

  • teamtink #94 10 months ago

    I thought multiplayer was ruled out? My first reaction was uh-oh, but then again i'm sure Bioware and EA doesn't wish to repeat the backlash that DA2 received (I actually liked it). Lets wait for next month, tis gonna be a good E3!

  • WiseNail #95 10 months ago

    EA exec:

    Call of Duty - Battlefield - Check

    Halo - Crysis - Check

    Left 4 Dead Multi - Dead Space - Check

    Gear of War - Hmmm, how about Mass Effect multiplay

  • Dashnak #96 10 months ago

    Bioware is going down the drain.

  • Dashnak #97 10 months ago

    Bioware is going down the drain.

  • Sodding_Gamer #98 10 months ago

    @Anomagnus

    What are you on mate. Look at Skyrim. Look how complex the Elder scrolls are in terms of RPG's and how financially successful they are. Oh not to mention Fallout too.

    And by the looks of things Skyrim is going to be massive. You call yourself an RPG fan but your more like a walking contradiction.

  • oi #99 10 months ago

    Hey, BioWare!


    FUCK YOU

  • des #100 10 months ago

    EA sold 2+ million DA2 copies,they don't care.Adapt or don't play.

  • irve77 #101 10 months ago

    bloody hell i thought they runined mass effect 2 trying to make it gears of war .... i was hoping a couple of steps back into ME1 RPG goodness

    Seems strange to me that Fallout 3 was a massive seller and that is fairly RPG heavy .. but Bioware seem to think that RPG element is holding ME back and isn't what people want.

    You take away more RPG stuff ME3 will have to be a Gears Beater
    Add some back and as long as it's a competent cover shooter everything's cool

    ... just

    ... no more human reapers please rather have a plot not written by a 3yr old

  • patootik #102 10 months ago

    Really sad news. I know I'm in the minority in saying this but personally I would have liked ME2 and 3 to be almost identical to the first. The only improvements I'd like to have seen would be technical, frame rates, texture pop in, loading times, but thats it! Nothing gameplay wise had to change in my opinion, aside from maybe a minor tweak to the inventory system.

    In my opinion ME1 had a magical formula that has been lost. ME 2 is still a very nice game, and I will buy 3 because I want my Shepard to see the trilogy through, but it's a real pity what has become of ME.

    And for those who think I'm just being nostalgic, I have played through ME1 3 times over the last few years and each time it just blows me away. It's just got something, like the original Mario Bros, of the first command & conquer, or (dare I say it) Ocarina Of Time.

    Mass Effect 1 is one of my all time fave games, but ME as a franchise is now just one of many good franchises, whereas it could have been something great. That's my opinion anyway.

  • coolbritannia #103 10 months ago

    It's still going to be awesome, there is an argument that by part 3 the fans are so invested in the story they may forgive the gameplay changes.

  • Xardan #104 10 months ago

    I think the delay is a good thing. I was worried the game might feel rushed because a year and a half in development isnt enough time to perfect any game, let alone the finale for a game like Mass Effect. And Mass Effect 3 will have to be one hell of an epic game to finish the series satisfactorily.

    Although the game will probably have more of a focus on combat (more than ME2) it will no doubt still deliver all that we can expect from bioware.

  • ElStevo #105 10 months ago

    I think it will be Kinect/Move functionality. That ties in with their comments about making the game more mainstream.

    I hope they do more inventory stuff this time around. /minority
    Edited by 1 at 05/05/11 @ 11:20

  • Hindle #106 10 months ago

    Who cares if its more of an action game? In the future all the generes are going to start blending i.e shooter games with rpg elements.

  • superflyninja #107 10 months ago

    why bother with a AAA ME sequel at all? Just release a slightly themed ME version of Farmville and be done with it.

  • menage #108 10 months ago

    I'll wait and see, but they sure as hell don't have my money yet. There's enough games to play for me to bail out of the franchise if it becomes generic.

  • Ternon #109 10 months ago

    Wow, does this mean it will be even more dumbed down than ME2?

    And I couldn't believe how dumbed down ME2 was compared to ME1 in every area, Resident Evil 5 had more RPG customization options than ME2.

  • actionfitz #110 10 months ago

    For Fuck Sake.

    possible new features:
    - ability to create your very own Dick / swastika emblem to put on Sheppard's weapons
    - Controller support for discarded 'Rockband' peripherals.
    - new paragon dialogue options: LOL, :),

  • anomagnus #111 10 months ago

    @Sodding_Gamer

    Well, thanks for helping to prove my point. Perhaps you’re not old enough to remember the absolute fuss that stormed around RPG tea cups upon the release of Oblivion, about how dumbed down it was compared to Morrowind, and how it was for noobs. It also managed to outsell Morrowind, I might add. You think Skyrim won’t show similar ‘improvements’? Wait to you see the official Bethseda forums as well, about how shit Skyrim is compared to Morrowind. Even then though, it managed to ship 1.7 million units for resell, not for actual sale, in the first month. That shit WON’T fly in today’s market. If you’re AAA, you better deliver multiple millions. Homefront was a failure with 2.5 million units. You think an RPG that’s aimed at the smallest gaming section is going to do more than that?!

    More to the point, when you say look at Skyrim, look at what? The four or five screenshots. There is nothing to see of Skyrim yet. I’ll hold my judgment on it until it ships, as I’ll do with ME3, as a LOT of the fucking whingers on this forums should do as well.

    Everything I just said about Skyrim applies to Fallout as well. Perhaps you’ve forgotten how much hate it got from Fallout 1 fans. Or did you somehow think switching it from an Isometric rpg to a first person shooter come rpg was just an aesthetic decision? It was specifically designed to make it more mass market friendly.

    The only contradiction here, is you, attempting to sound like you know what you’re talking about, while ignoring the history of the games you mentioned, and failing to understand the modern games market.

  • Daeltaja #112 10 months ago

    Haha!! Just like DA2. The fanboy flaming will be hilarious.

    Why do Bioware deem it necessary to make the third installment of a core franchise, more accessible? It's not like the mass market will go "oh ok, I'll go play ME1/2 before or after playing this" considering they obviously aren't "accessible" (Which I completely beg to differ)

    It's a bit late in the series to go messing around like this. Unless of course, they continue to make new installments.

  • Ternon #113 10 months ago

    "I know I'm in the minority in saying this but personally I would have liked ME2 and 3 to be almost identical to the first."

    That is a very stupid thing to say, if anything can be said for certain it is that you are a majority.

    Just because Bioware delusionally decided to ignore majority in some halfassed misguided attempt to appeal to the masses it doesn't magically make that majority into a minority.

    The notion that Bioware is appealing to the masses and widening their market by systematically dumbing their games is absurd and factually baseless.

  • Ternon #114 10 months ago

    "I know I'm in the minority in saying this but personally I would have liked ME2 and 3 to be almost identical to the first."

    That is a very stupid thing to say, if anything can be said for certain it is that you are a majority.

    Just because Bioware delusionally decided to ignore majority in some halfassed misguided attempt to appeal to the masses it doesn't magically make that majority into a minority.

    The notion that Bioware is appealing to the masses and widening their market by systematically dumbing their games is absurd and factually baseless.

    Bioware simply lost the plot.

  • Sodding_Gamer #115 10 months ago

    @anomagnus

    Thinking you are the superior being by coming onto here and talking about people winging in a comments forum, that is for discussing (or in most cases winging anyways) is what is the most annoying thing on here. Yes I played Morrowind myself and loved it, and yes things were dumbed down a tad in Oblivion.

    The point I am making is that you said "You want to know whos to blame for this. All the bitching whiners on this thread. RPG fans are the biggest problem with RPGs, and i'm saying that as someone that loves RPGS."

    RPG fans are not to blame, the market is to blame. Which you said later on. Making you a walking contradiction. RPG fans let the developers of the freaking game know what should be tweaked and sorted out, and where they get their ideas from for sequels. Like expanded the skill tree for ME3 BECAUSE IT WAS DUMBED DOWN SO MUCH IN ME2. And sorry but I think I speak for all MASS EFFECT FANS here, the first was better than the second.

    Anyway rant over. Like I said before, the comic in the ps3 version was enough to expand to a larger audience. And even still, making it mulitplatform was more than enough to fulfil its needs. They really don't need to dumb the game down itself. I just hope the story is as good as the first.

  • speedjack #116 10 months ago

    'No one in this world has ever lost money by underestimating the intelligence of the great masses of the plain people.'

  • superflyninja #117 10 months ago

    @anomagnus
    "Or did you somehow think switching it from an Isometric rpg to a first person shooter come rpg was just an aesthetic decision? It was specifically designed to make it more mass market friendly. " That is a load of bollox. The change to FPS came because the tech was there to immerse the gamer in a world. Of course games are made to sell -hence the turn based stuff was handled as it was.
    In regard to the comments about Oblivion etc games do improve/change iteratively. Concessions will be made. What people are not happy with is the fact that EA are looking to make some kind of GoW beater out of an rpg, possibly wrecking the appeal that garnered the series so many fans in the first place.

  • Sodding_Gamer #118 10 months ago

    @Superflyninja

    Great points that I should of added to my comment! When you make a franchise they should always stick same game mechanics. As that defines the game itself. Most hardcore mass effect fans will be the ones reeling the money in buying the comics, figurines, collectors editions etc etc. They made enough money from mass effect 1&2 anyway. Seems like they are turning into bleeding ACTI. Which I really hope not! I mean look at what the did to dead space 2 in regards to multiplayer, which was to adhere to a larger audience. And what a fail that was. Clearly pushed from EA which I think is the case with ME3

  • muscleblade #119 10 months ago

    Its not likely that they make ME3 into a FPS as the look of your character is of such a huge importance with the equipment and such. It will stay in third person for sure. Its more a shooter than a RPG, but it will never become a FPS (first person shooter).
    Edited by 1 at 05/05/11 @ 12:32

  • Madder-Max #120 10 months ago

    Meh. no pre orders from me will wait now until people have played this first.

    If its any more dumbed down it will be like watching Dora The Explorer

  • Climhazzard #121 10 months ago

    Oh great i dont like the sound of that. ME2 was simple enough.

  • Code_R #122 10 months ago

    How can it possibly get MORE commercial? Aren't the supposed to be fixing those problems and putting the RPG elements back?

  • spekkeh #123 10 months ago

    Totally agree with subdominator. The inventory system in ME1 was dumb, getting rid of it makes the game a lot smarter. All this 'dumbing down' crap just bespeaks faux elitism, like the hipster whinging that their favorite band has gone mainstream now that more than three people listen to it.

    Anyway, the thing that bothers me the most about this statement is not necessarily the fear of more action bits, but that the series won't see a good closure. The Mass Effect world has always been an interesting enough background for multiple stories, but delaying the actual finale to facilitate this, means that gaps will be introduced purposefully to tie into the last chapter. That's absolutely detrimental to the story; perhaps smart from a marketing perspective, but terrible from a creative one.

  • zoweewowee #124 10 months ago

    These times are getting harder and harder for non-casual gamers. Talented studios are forced to target bigger audiences, we're just getting less and less true games. Even on insanity, ME2 was so unchallenging (apart the ShadowBroker boss fight if you do it early in the game)

  • DiamondIce #125 10 months ago

    The inventory system from ME was an unwieldy mess which needed changing. I would rather Bioware could have thought of a way of doing this rather than stripping it out for the sequel.

    I like upgrading / customising weapons and abilities in the way I want so I was hoping ME3 might allow for this. Maybe it will.

  • metalangel #126 10 months ago

    @zoweewowee: See also: rewind functions in racing games.

  • Caimbeul #127 10 months ago

    Oh dear. Potentially disaterous news. Bioware seem to be falling from grace.

  • fraggin1out #128 10 months ago

    I think Mr. Riccitiello might have his head up his ass or he is just telling the investors what they want to hear. Which is just as likely. I love ME1 and they found a good balance in ME2 with accessibility but if ME3 gets any more watered down i think it'll be ruined.

    I wonder what Bioware think of Riccitiellos BS. I know DICE don't appreciate him starting some kind of fan boy baiting war between BF3 and COD. So i imagine he has just said what he has to please the peeps paying him. So i'd just ignore his crap and see what happens.

  • Ternon #129 10 months ago

    "Totally agree with subdominator. The inventory system in ME1 was dumb, getting rid of it makes the game a lot smarter"

    LOL, what an idiot!
    There is a large continuum between slightly clumsy, improvement and complete elimination of a feature.
    And inventory is only one tiny bit in overall dumbing down of ME2.
    Edited by 1 at 05/05/11 @ 13:44

  • The-Bodybuilder #130 10 months ago

    I find it utterly amazing that Grogmonkey explained everything perfectly (SHAREHOLDERS MEETING FOLKS! FFS) and that Bioware just a few days ago said they were EXPANDING THE RPG elements, yet people just overlooked his post and still just want to go on a mouth-frothing rampage. Honestly, it's like gamers really don't want to use any perspective anymore and enjoy frothing in rage rather than playing games.

    Neg away all you want, just bloody read Grogmonkey's post again and go get some flipping herbal tea.

  • The-Bodybuilder #131 10 months ago

    BTW, my post above isn't asking for more shooty bits. ME1 is arguably my best game ever, and I regard it as my own spiritual succesor to shenmue (fills that great shenmue-gap in my life) and I do hope ME3 doesn't go the ME2 way, but you guys seriously need to calm down.

  • rudedudejude #132 10 months ago

    = "Dumbed down to make more $$$$"

  • Starkillah_79 #133 10 months ago

    here we go again feeding trolls & flamers with quotes like these ^^ it's ridiculous yet so funny

  • Genji #134 10 months ago

    "Not really. They took away a lot of the fun from the first with the inventory, mako. The plot was weaker and didn't have the power and spectacle of 1. The new characters were uninteresting, It was more linear and you spent the whole game go find this person and that person only to do it then get end game (which was a really silly end game at that). Even those loading screens which shattered the immersion of the first game (of all the silly complaints to actually listen to Bioware).

    It was more a third person shooter with a really boring mini game. I left ME1 breathless, I left ME2, careless sadly."

    The inventory in ME1 was "fun"? What? You liked picking up a hundred variations of the Katana IV, Katana V and (wait for it!) Katana VI?

    The loading screens "immersive"? You're talking about the interminable lift rides, right?

    ME1 was basically linear. I did miss the Citadel in ME2, but I didn't think it was *that* different.

    The story in ME2 was weaker, I suppose, but really it was a lot of little stories about your crew. And the characters in ME2 were just *better*. I honestly don't know how anyone could think otherwise. I missed Wrex, but Garrus was better, and Mordin!

    ME1 was just as much a third person shooter as ME2. It was just a *bad* third-person shooter, with RPG mechanics that were, quite frankly, over-complicated. Inventory management was obtuse, and most of the time you leveled up without seeing any appreciable difference in your abilities.

    I loved it all the same, though. I loved both games. I honestly just cannot see why people don't rate the second game.

    It's "dumbed down"? Quite frankly, when I hear people (not you, mate, just people in general) use that phrase, it seems like they feel RPGs are only about lots and lots of stats, and that any deviation from that threatens that little superiority complex they have about themseves as "real gamers".

  • anomagnus #135 10 months ago

    @ Superfly ninja

    So you’re saying the only way to make a game immersive is to make an FPS? They had any number of options. In fact, they could have put time and effort in, and made a beautiful, immersive, isometric game. But let’s be honest here, how many people would have bought it?! Were I to go through the top selling non sports games over the past 2 years, how many would be FPS/ 3rd person games? They wanted to make a game, and they needed to make it sell. The FPS perspective was and remains the best outcome for that.

    As for the gears of war thing, can you point to me, ANYWHERE outside of hyperbole and forum rants where EA said they want ME to be gears of war? Is that how you define mass market now? Anybody that likes gears, they must be mass market morons? Why is it, however, that the ‘concessions’ you mentioned for Elder Scrolls, are acceptable within that context, while at the same time not be acceptable for ME? Taken away from the extremely myopic and tunnel vision RPG view, the changes from ME1 to ME2 were iterative. Dropping an inventory system that was a) clunky and b) completely nonsensical from a story point of view (oh, I’m an N7 trained commando for one of the most powerful navies in the galaxy, I have to scavenge for equipment?!!!) and changing the layout of a skill tree. For most people, this isn’t an issue, bar a small, small part of the game buying community.

    While people will bitch about how ‘dumbed’ down ME2 was, critically, commercially, and imo, it was a superior game in every way to ME1. It achieved success far in excess of ME1. I know that pisses the beardies of, but too fucking bad. RPGs have been held down for years now, by people that simply will not accept change in any way, shape or form.

    I can bet you any money, there will be people bitching about the Witcher 2, that they’ve dumbed it down. Wait and see. You can’t please the forum rpg fans.

    @sodding gamer

    Fans aren’t to blame, the market is?..... The biggest single problem I have with people like you. In that sentence, you make it clear you consider people like yourself to be better than the mass market fans. As if, somehow, your ability to play and appreciate a game is greater than anyone else’s. A particularly large section of the PRG playing base have left RPGs trapped, utilizing outdated mechanics, many of them holding their foundations in DD principles 40 years old. Bioware are trying something different. I’ve enjoyed every moment I’ve spent on their games, including my time with DA2, and encourage them to keep breaking the rules.

    As for speaking for all fans, rest assured, in NO way, shape or form, do you speak for me as an ME fan, nor will you ever. Were you any true fan, by the way, you might remember every problem that was listed in the forums after ME1’s release. Everyone of those problems was addressed in ME2. Many of the ideas, in fact, were directly asked for. The skill trees were ridiculed in the beginning, if you actually recall. I’m playing a N7 Solider, and I can’t aim an assault rifle?! I mean for fucks sakes, come on.

    Bioware have taken ME, an RPG, and made it mass market. They’ve also captured the essence of RPGs, making meaningful choices, and wrapping it up in a believable universe, while at the same time making a trilogy of games where choices carry over. Were this any other genre of game, its fans would be lauding it. But not rpg fans. No, they’re more concerned about skill trees.

    Maybe I’m not an RPG, maybe It’s better than I’m not.

    I’ve wasted enough time on this as it is. Role on ME3. I’ll enjoy the shit out of it, even if you won’t.

  • Yossarian #136 10 months ago

    Bioware's descent into mediocrity is continuing without a hitch, I see.

    Ten years of steady decline but increasing sales! Good job, guys.

  • Inmediasress #137 10 months ago

    @anomagnus
    The problem is that msot RPG fans shit on graphics wee don't want next gen graphics something solid is enough it shouldn't look like a game from the early 90's but we don't need ultra HD graphics. The publishers seem to think that we need ultra hyper super duper HD 1080p 3D god knows what else you can do graphics with a 100million dolar marketing strategy.
    Where the only room left is to casualize a game to make the 5-6 milllion sales they desire in some cases even that is too small.
    They kill RPG the fans just react although some of them are trolls but you find those everywhere.

  • j1m.ch053n #138 10 months ago

    is there going to be a button i can hold down and it will do all of the walking/talking/fighting for me - otherwise its too hard and i cant be arsed

  • paulust2002 #139 10 months ago

    Worst trademark of next gem games. Soon they will be as similar, generic and dire as the Hollywood film production line. No more bioshock cult status games to come. Everything will seem like a re skinned version of something else. Daaaaamn

  • superflyninja #140 10 months ago

    @anomagnus
    "So you’re saying the only way to make a game immersive is to make an FPS? They had any number of options. In fact, they could have put time and effort in, and made a beautiful, immersive, isometric game. But let’s be honest here, how many people would have bought it?! Were I to go through the top selling non sports games over the past 2 years, how many would be FPS/ 3rd person games? They wanted to make a game, and they needed to make it sell. The FPS perspective was and remains the best outcome for that.

    As for the gears of war thing, can you point to me, ANYWHERE outside of hyperbole and forum rants where EA said they want ME to be gears of war? Is that how you define mass market now? Anybody that likes gears, they must be mass market morons? Why is it, however, that the ‘concessions’ you mentioned for Elder Scrolls, are acceptable within that context, while at the same time not be acceptable for ME? Taken away from the extremely myopic and tunnel vision RPG view, the changes from ME1 to ME2 were iterative. Dropping an inventory system that was a) clunky and b) completely nonsensical from a story point of view (oh, I’m an N7 trained commando for one of the most powerful navies in the galaxy, I have to scavenge for equipment?!!!) and changing the layout of a skill tree. For most people, this isn’t an issue, bar a small, small part of the game buying community. "

    Woah there Nelly!!! You talk to me about hyperbole? I never said the only way to make fallout immersion was to go with a first person perspective.Personally I find first person most immersive and it makes perfect sense for an rpg. There is a big difference between moving with the times and making something mass market. Take the inventory in ME1. Yes it was clunky. But why rip the entire inventory out in ME2? Why not fix it? Just because Shepard is some super duper operative doesnt mean he wont scavenge new weapons etc. Its a game. The player cant just be handed the most powerful weapons/armour at the outset! Same applied to the mako missions. The main problem was once you entered the base on a planet the floor plan/assets were identical. Again I believe Bioware should have fixed that rather than just yank the feature. It was a huge draw to land on an unknown planet and explore. It gave me some of my most memorable gaming moments this generation. In ME2 the environments were visibly limited which completely flew in the face of the first game. admittedly limiting the scope of the levels did allow greater spectacle.

    With Oblivion the changes made were acceptable to me because i felt they added to or enhanced the game or i could easily live with them. That does not appear to be the case with ME. Features were ripped out entirely rather than being fixed/modified. For example in RPGs what I love is the loot aspect. ME2 removed the entire armour side of that by only having shepard's armour modifiable. The introduction of ammo clips in ME2 was another stupid idea. Its like chunks were just being trimmed off ME willy nilly.
    About Gears......I LOVE GoW. If I want to play GoW Ill play it. But I dont want ME to play like GoW. TO explain GoW is a 3rd person shooter. ME(1 at least) is a 3rd person rpg shooter.

  • apoc_reg #141 10 months ago

    Oh dear lord this is not good, they had already gone way too far with Mass 2!!

  • wobbly_Bob #142 10 months ago

    OH DEAR.

    I have not and do not intend to get Dragon Age 2 because they "streamlined it" and no it's not because I am a basement nerd that can't stand change it's because they ruined it, inho.

    I'll keep an open mind, but I am worried by this news.

  • metalangel #143 10 months ago

    @superflyninja: Hang on, why can't I have good equipment as standard issue, especially considering I (as Shepard) am already the most badass soldier in the Alliance Navy? In Halo you start with the good all-rounder rifles, likewise in Gears, weapons that are powerful and effective through the entire game.

    If they're so keen to fiddle with RPG tropes then why not this? It would be quite refreshing to have a standard, decent gun for the whole game. By all means, have other stuff I can find or buy to use too, but give me a standard weapon that I get attached to and am happy to keep. In a way, ME1 almost did this anyway, given all the guns of a certain type were almost identical in appearance and just increased a bit in power.

  • Douche #144 10 months ago

    The majority of people will prefer Mass Effect 2 to 1, there is no question in my mind. Maybe not people on this forums or traditional RPG fans but gamers in general certainly would.

    I agree with the general critical reception of both games. 2 superior game to 1.

    Roll on 3. With more guns like in 1.

  • Douche #145 10 months ago

    Is the term 'Dumbed down' really correct? Like you need to be uber intelligent to compare armour and weapon stats? Just more time you aren't playing the game, interacting with the world and its characters.

  • Collymilad #146 10 months ago

    Brilliant.

    EA, if you fuck this up I will never buy a game from you again. Or you Bioware. It would be unforgivable and I mean that i all seriousness.

    Sorry but this sounds bad. Although didn't Bioware say there would be more complex skill trees, weapon mods etc just a month or so ago?
    Edited by 1 at 05/05/11 @ 16:30

  • superflyninja #147 10 months ago

    @metalangel
    Because Halo and Gears are not RPGS. Halo and gears have a handful of meticulously balanced weapons. You pick your weapon in those games and practice! in an (some at least) rpg the point is to constantly improve your kit.

  • SteveHolt #148 10 months ago

    patootik wrote: "In my opinion ME1 had a magical formula that has been lost. ME 2 is still a very nice game, and I will buy 3 because I want my Shepard to see the trilogy through, but it's a real pity what has become of ME."

    Same here, but for a different reason: while playing ME1, I thought I was making important decisions. After playing ME2, I realised that I never did - the illusion was shattered, Bioware's storytelling tricks exposed.
    My prediction for ME3: except for the odd dead character and a side quest that may or may not feature rachnis, everything you did or didn't do in ME1+2 will make no difference whatsoever. That's why they went for the "earth under attack" angle - it's just a convenient way to ditch all the choices you think you've made in ME1+2.

  • Farzlepot #149 10 months ago

    Mass Kinect?

  • Daikon #150 10 months ago

    After the disaster which was Dragon Age II I won't be pre-ordering this.
    Going to wait for Metacritic user reviews, even if it means I will lose out on some useless exclusive pre-order piece of armour...

  • Gunship #151 10 months ago

    Well, the comments here were very interesting indeed. I thought it was only the Dragon Age crowd that didn't want their games streamlined (ie RPG conventions removed). Yet it seems that most people also don't want ME to go further down the all-action route.

    To those who were saying "calm down it was just a shareholders' call, so he's bound to say that". He can't totally invent stuff and bullshit the shareholders either. Given a choice between EA PR hype and an investors call, my money would be on the investors call. Also, look at their record with Dragon Age. They did dumb it down despite claiming that they had just made it more "accessible" and "aerodynamic".

  • BlinkeredAxis #152 10 months ago

    Not sure if they meant more shooting sections as the 'mass market' change. ME2 has loads of shootiness in it. I'm on another playthrough now, and seem to be spending more time than I remember slamming then sniping bad guys.

    Anyway, I think these forums, when referring to BioWare, especially the ME series, tend to be a lot more negative than the players you meet in real life. I don't know any of my friends who've played it who didn't think it was utterly brilliant. We expect the same from ME3. I personally don't play Dragon Age, so don't see it as being very relevant to this discussion, which is about Mass Effect 3. Go cry to mommy on the Dragon Age forum if you like.

    Perhaps by mass market, they mean a longer exotic dancing section with Kelly.

  • dean0null #153 10 months ago

    Mass Effect 2 was a massive fetch quest with a good ending tacked on. I really enjoyed Mass Effect 1, but Mass Effect 2 got the higher review score since the game play was a little more polished; however, Mass Effect 3 looks like it will have a better story than Mass Effect 1 and better game play than both predecessors.

  • spekkeh #154 10 months ago

    "Totally agree with subdominator. The inventory system in ME1 was dumb, getting rid of it makes the game a lot smarter"

    LOL, what an idiot!
    There is a large continuum between slightly clumsy, improvement and complete elimination of a feature.

    I didn't say there wasn't, oh.. highly intelligent person.

  • enigma #155 10 months ago

    Didn't they try this with DA2? And look at the shitstorm that created. These are hardly the wisest words from the boss of EA with that in mind.

    I'm getting very nervous about ME3 now. It's almost like they don't want me to buy their games any more.

  • panathatube #156 10 months ago

    As if it was not successful in the first place. OK Mass Effect meats Dragon Age 2... NOT good...

  • metalangel #157 10 months ago

    @superflyninja: I know that... that's why I'm suggesting they change it.

  • jimr9999us #158 10 months ago

    -sigh-

    That's really all I can muster at this point.

  • Sevens #159 10 months ago

    Excellent, Bioware and EA. Dilute your games, smash them into parts and sell everything as pre-order, Project 10 Dollar, Signature Edition, at-launch and post-launch DLC. Add some cross-promotion DLC, Facebook-hits DLC, retailer-specific DLC and rush everything. Then collaborate with P. Molyneux. Dragon Mass Fable surely must be the ultimate accessible-yet-deep game.

  • Grogmonkey #160 10 months ago

    @Gunship

    There's EA PR hype, investors calls, and then there's developers themselves and the interviews/previews they give. Personally I always trust the latter.

    But no one anywhere said that Riccitiello was telling lies. It probably IS true. Making it more appealing to a broader market is not only smart, but it's what most people want: publishers, investors, developers, and even the public (if they are among the people who are being targetted, and they get to play a new, awesome game).

    What most of the sensible, level-headed people are saying is that this investors call is not the whole, entire story. It is a tiny part of the Mass Effect 3 story. Not only that, but it's a tiny, TIGHTLY FOCUSSED part of the story. That focus is on 'how is Mass Effect 3 going to maximise the return on my investment?' This is not a call to a game-specific website, outlining every feature of the game. It's not a press release telling the world how the focus is being shifted. It's minutes from an conference call to people in suits who only care about the bottom line; not gameplay mechanics, or the finer points in crafting an RPG experience.

    As I mentioned before, the way you GAIN investor confidence is explaining how you are going to increase the profits of a game. You do this by focussing the discussion on the "broad appeal" parts of the game; how they are being improved, how you are going to get more gamers to play it.

    You LOSE investor confidence by saying things like "Yeah, the RPG mechanics are a lot deeper and more involved, and there's a lot more customisation." Because investors then say "Yeah, but that's not going to sell 6 million copies of the game, is it?"

    No game ever made, and especially no sequel, was ever developed to appeal to FEWER people.

  • spekkeh #161 10 months ago

    Well I'd like to believe that some games are still being made out of a desire of the developer(s) to create something artistically meaningful (or create something period), without much consideration for how many people would like it. Although I fully agree with you that these aren't the big-budget games we're talking about here. Acting as if games like Mass Effect were ever going to be anything but blockbuster crowd pleasers just seems completely nonsensical.

  • metroid455 #162 10 months ago

    hmm is it just me or is bioware becoming afraid of making RPG's ?
    it seems that they haven't learn't their lesson from Dragon Age 2!
    oh deary deary me what bioware have become .

  • Gunship #163 10 months ago

    @Grogmonkey - your post is a truism. But I don't trust the BioWare devs or EA Hype Machine. Were you anywhere near the BioWare forums in the run-up to the DA2 release? It turned out to be full of cynically dishonest statements on the part of the devs. Either that, or their interpretation of the words "complexity", "depth", "maturity", "RPG elements", "innovation", "tactical", etc etc etc does not match that of most users of the English language. They were deliberately using the ambiguity of terms like "RPG elements" to reassure people that they had not done what they had - ie remove a good chunk of these RPG elements. Like Riccitello, they spin. What they should have done was say "sorry RPGers, we're aiming for a new crowd now. But if you still like our games as FPSes, or hack and slash'ers, please do join us again". However they preferred to bait and switch, with the devs supporting the misinformation charge. You cannot re-read the old DA2 forums with anything other than shock and awe at how they spun/omitted the truth to dupe people to buy a game on the basis of it having characteristics that were never there.

    So why should it be any different with what they say re ME3? When they claim to have added more RPG elements in ME3, this could well be one extra side quest. And read that statement alongside what Christina Norman said: "Mass Effect 3 will do away with role-playing elements that don't "have a real impact in the battle" and you have another Bio-conundrum.

  • Grogmonkey #164 10 months ago

    @Gunship

    I will bow to your knowledge on what's been said on the Bioware forums. I've deliberately been keeping my DA2 info non-existent while I polish off DA1. If all you say is true, then that's pretty disappointing. Puposefully misleading your fanbase is never a clever business strategy.

    I would still say "wait and see before claiming the downfall of the RPG", but then I haven't been burned by DA2, so maybe the pain is still too real for some people ;)
    Plus, there's always Obsidian. They still make proper RPGs.

    Personally, I still hold out hope I'll enjoy DA2 anyway.

  • SomaticSense #165 10 months ago

    Did ME2 really need 'commercialising' any more?

    A lot of fans were pissy after the removal of a lot of RPG elements from the second game. I worked however, and with ME2 they had that perfect balance. So why do they feel the need to potentially ruin that balance further?

    While I loved what they did with ME2, I've a really bad feeling about this...

  • TheDarkFurie #166 10 months ago

    Ah gamers, such a reactionary lot. Has anyone considered that EA, the big corporation out to make money above all else, looked at all the positive reactions to the news about the game having more RPG features added in and decided they wanted more of that as it would mean more sales? That the extra polishing time has been added for Bioware to do their thing and make the game more RPGish? That you are actually the mass they want to add to the market for the third game?

  • darc #167 10 months ago

    I don't necessarily think that streamlining is a horrible thing in ME (although I *personally* preferred ME1, I enjoyed both games.) But Bioware need to be more careful about what they say right now. As divisive as DA2 was, this is just one more - of many - PR blunders.

    I think ME is a special case because it is truly a hybrid game - an RPG with a solid action mechanic (i.e. FPS) at its core. This was not the case with DA2, and I don't care how you spin it, they absolutely did dumb DA2 down. The strategy aspects are simply no longer there, and clicking on red circles is about as much an "action game" as previewing my damned email. There may be a story that some people enjoy, but there really is no substantial *game* there at all.

    And I have no use for the "new game sold more copies, so quit whining and get used to it" argument. Of course the newer games sell more copies, the entire industry has grown; the marketing efforts are more corporate, more cutthroat, than ever before. This has NOTHING to do with the discussion of which are the better games. Do you really think the best of the best of anything sells the most? Is McDonalds the finest food? The Black Eyed Peas the greatest songwriters? Budweiser the King of Beers? Get real.

    We have every right to winge, and the devs should be happy we even take the time - we're the damned customers. I could just as well (and likely soon will) ignore Bioware altogether.

    ME3 might be a great game even if it is "dumbed down". I love a good shooter. But one thing I've learned in the last couple of months is that Bioware and EA, collectively, have no respect for their own IP. ME3 is going to have to review exceptionally well, come forward with a convincing demo, AND drop in price before I part with any money. DA2 -> Fool me once.
    Edited by 3 at 06/05/11 @ 17:06

  • Make67 #168 10 months ago

    I kinda liked both Dragon Age 2 and ME 2. But this sounds bad, really bad. EA all-over in this..