XBLA a "slaughterhouse" for small devs

By Robert Purchese Published 13 July, 2010

Joe Danger sold 50k in first week on PSN.

Joe Danger was launched on PlayStation Network because Hello Games believed Xbox Live Arcade was a "slaughterhouse" for small developers.

Co-founder Sean Murray - speaking at Brighton's Develop confernence today - said nearly half of all XBLA games sell less than 25,000 copies.

"Why choose PSN?" he asked the audience, as reported by sister site GamesIndustry.biz. "It was the only way we could self-publish.

"XBLA is kind of a slaughterhouse for smaller developers. There are games that do amazingly well. But there's two titles released every week and a lot of those are falling in that 25,000 or less category."

Murray's figures showed that 47 per cent of XBLA games sold less than 25,000 copies, 23 per cent sold around 100,000 copies, 13 per cent 200,000 copies and 17 per cent over 200,000 copies.

Murray said Joe Danger broke-even on day one and shifted 50,000 copies on PSN during its first week.

Despite console services presenting mouth-watering opportunities for independent developers, third parties still regard them, as Murray put it, as "the ginger step-child" of the digital market: they don't want much to do with them.

"It's not to say publishers are sh**," Murray elaborated, "but small studios are amazing in this space."

Apparently Joe Danger - awarded 8/10 on Eurogamer - was dismissed routinely by publishers, with Hello Games receiving put-downs such as, "Name me one popular game with motorbikes," and, "Can Joe be a monkey? We like monkeys."

Hello Games is now hard at work on a new game. As good as Joe Danger is, Murray said that if the four-man team could double, "what we could do with eight people could be f***ing amazing".

Picture of Robert.

About Robert Purchese

Bertie is Eurogamer's Senior Staff Writer. When he's not hunting down news stories he's often found playing with his kids or gabbling about fantasy games and strange online worlds.

Read more articles from Robert by visiting the Robert Purchese archive page.

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Comments (91) Latest comment 2 years ago

Comments threads automatically close after 30 days, but please feel free to continue chatting on the forum!

  • Dizzy #1 2 years ago

    Politically correct speak for "Much better competition".

  • darkmorgado #2 2 years ago

    Well, if you don't offer a demo so that people can see if your game is sh*t before they shell out for it, it's no surprise their sales are higher, is it?

    Not slagging off Joe Danger here, which is a gem of a game, just talking about in general.
    Edited by 1 at 13/07/10 @ 16:29

  • sneetch #3 2 years ago

    That does seem to be the case Dizzy, I would have bought it on XBLA but getting it on PSN was fine too.

  • FireMonkey #4 2 years ago

    Joe Danger did have a hell of a lot more publicity than most arcade games. That would have helped the sales dramatically.
    Also, as he says there are 2 titles released every week on XBLA. That coupled with a marketplace that (I personally) find hard to locate stuff on would have an impact. When PSN has as much content released every week I think the same issues are going to start to appear on that too.

  • KayJay #5 2 years ago

    Did I get the wrong end of the stick or did darkmorgado?
    Edited by 1 at 13/07/10 @ 14:41

  • darkmorgado #6 2 years ago

    Plus, "ginger step-child"?

    How is this appropriate language?

  • FTM #7 2 years ago

    if the game is good enough it will sell well, theres just more competition so it has to be damn good to stand out!

  • JayKwon #8 2 years ago

    I would've bought it on XBLA. Just bring it over:).

  • darkmorgado #9 2 years ago

    @kj66246

    What I am saying is that a huge amount of downloadable games simply aren't very high-quality. If you offer a free demo, as you are required to on XBLA, then people will see for themselves and decide not to buy something.

    Another issue on XBLA is the sheer volume of games available on it, which makes the number on PSN seem miniscule - people have far more choice, so their buying habits will be more spread out.

    If you don't offer a demo, and your selection is much smaller, of course average title sales will be higher because people have less to choose from and aren't able to trial the game. The real measure would be OVERALL sales across the service.

  • Spunkweazle #10 2 years ago

    But why can't Joe be a monkey, I like monkeys

  • muscleblade #11 2 years ago

    The amount of games on offer is too high at the moment. Maybe this will solve itself when developers stop putting their games on xbla and the few games that show up get purchased. Two new games each week is overkill. The same is happening to retail too. The summer drough dont exist anymore. Theres no time too breath.

  • reelbigkris #12 2 years ago

    What we'd all like to know is why they were so against the main character being a monkey? I enjoyed Joe danger anyway, even with the lack of a monkey leadign character...

    I don't enjoy looking at the XBLA, There's somethign about the look of the marketplace that makes me feel threatened. Perhaps it's the large box art thats screaming out "BUY ME!!!". The ps3 is pretty reserved (not counting the main page advertisements) so, it is definitly easier to navigate.

    But in fairness, why do only a select few PSN titles bless us with a demo before purchasing?

  • NimbusTLD #13 2 years ago

    Well, if you don't offer a demo so that people can see if your game is sh*t before they shell out for it, it's no surprise their sales are higher, is it?

    Hah! Agreed, I regret puchasing it, and wouldn't have it if I'd tried been able to try a demo.

  • dfua #14 2 years ago

    A lot of the XBLA games are average to poor or overpriced and having demos makes it easy to rule them out, if a game is good enough it will sell well. It does help that PSN users are conditioned to paying more for their games as well.

  • Syrette #15 2 years ago

    Demos and loads (too much) of competition is a bad thing now?

    One of my favourite features of XBLA is the trial versions. Certainly put me off a couple of games, yes, but I've bought several on the back of enjoying the trials. Titles I might not have been interested in otherwise.

  • GamesProgrammer Verified Games Team Programmer, Eutechnyx Ltd. #16 2 years ago

    PSN doesn't have mandatory demo's because sony don't force developers to make them and most developers\publishers would agree demo's the majority of the time hurt sales rather than help them. Its generally best to bring out a demo a few months after your initial release to regenerate interest and to convince anyone that still might be on the fence.

    A bad demo is a lot more harmful than no demo at all, and due to the extra cost of developing a demo corners are unfortunately cut just to get it done.

    I would suggest the main reason this is not on XBLA is because MS do not allow self publishing and every publisher they talked to about it either did not want it or wanted to make changes to it that they were not comfortable with. MS unfortunately will only publish exclusive titles themselves, but now its been a success on Playstation a publisher with the ability to bring games to XBLA might hopefully pick it up and get them to do a port.
    Edited by 1 at 13/07/10 @ 14:48

  • KayJay #17 2 years ago

    @ darkmorgado - Got it. :-)

  • bluem4gic #18 2 years ago

    Pretty much sums up XBLA

  • Steroyd #19 2 years ago

    It's not just the sheer volume on XBLA, here's a full list of publishers comments.

    ?Name me one popular game with motorbikes??
    ?Collecting giant coins feels unrealistic to me??
    I can see this working as a Facebook app?
    ?We want games that are less about fun right now?
    ?We love the theme, but with a different game?
    ?We believe the iPhone will be largely unsupported?
    ?Can Joe be a monkey? We like Monkeys?

    Stuff like wanting less fun and collecting coins being unrealistic (LMAO), was also cockblocking the dev.

  • Der_tolle_Emil #20 2 years ago

    I would have bought Joe Danger in an instant. There is a reason for this though: The game got publicity. I think the biggest issue of XBLA is that many developers think the game sells itself just because you can download it, is cheap and has a demo. While those are all valid points it's simply not enough anymore.

    Digital downloads are booming and you need to distinguish your game from others. I think it's no coincidence that the best selling games are also the ones who got lots of publicity before they were released. Putting a game on XBLA/PSN only and hoping it will sell does not cut it anymore these days - Having to advertise your game as well might be against what XBLA/PSN was intended to accomplish at first but let's face it, there is simply too much content to "get away with just tossing" the game onto XBLA and be done with it.

    This is a fundamental issue that all download services will have to face at some point when there is a lot of content available.

  • menage #21 2 years ago

    Well, at least half of the games on XBLA are utter shit, so that might a factor.

    Oh, and I didn't buy Joe danger cause I didn't see a demo and it was 10 bucks. So they could have sold more if I at least got a sample.
    Edited by 1 at 13/07/10 @ 14:50

  • The-Bodybuilder #22 2 years ago

    "what we could do with eight people could be f***ing amazing
    And what you could do with double that would f***ing spectacular
    And what you could do with double of THAT would be f***king fantastic
    And what you could do with quadruple of that would f***king ORGASMIC

    And what you.....oh wait, we're a proper dev team now, and we've been swallowed up by activsion. Crap!

  • JahB #23 2 years ago

    "Why choose PSN?"

    because there's no trials HD to compete with?

  • mfnick #24 2 years ago

    Sooo... Is this coming to XBLA or not?

    I WANT IT!!!

  • Darren #25 2 years ago

    XBLA has trial demos, which is a good thing considering how much tripe is released, and the PSN doesn't. The lack of demos on PSN definitely stops me blind buying unless a game gets a great review like Joe Danger did on EG. I get the impression that although PSN has fewer games that they are generally of a higher quality than XBLA which seems to prioritise quantity over quality at times.

    I find it odd that games that are available on both XBLA and PSN, frequently don't have a trial demo for the latter or it arrives months afterwards when I've no interest in it any more. Why is that?

  • MrChuckles #26 2 years ago

    But honestly, it isn't anywhere near as good as Trials... I played that bad boy for weeks, trying to just through all the levels. Joe Danger is too much about stunts and combos, as the publisher says 'too much about fun' rather than 'anger creating insane difficulty'.

  • kinky_mong #27 2 years ago

    Reminds me of Jpod!

    "My son thinks turtles are cool. We're making the lead skateboarder a turtle now!"

  • Darren #28 2 years ago

    I didn't really like Trials HD that much but I love Joe Danger. I guess the colourful presentation and comedy element make the latter more appealing and entertaining for me.

  • kangarootoo #29 2 years ago

    There seems to be an odd atmosphere in this thread, as if people want to say Murray is wrong about XBLA. And yet the reasons people are giving actually support his point.

    He said XBLA is a bad place for an indie to stand out. Posters say "that is only because there is more content", as if that debunks Murray's statement. But I'm pretty sure the two statements support each other. That XBLA is chock full of competition isn't the reason he is wrong, its the reason he is right.

    Its all very well getting idealistic about how your game has to be of higher quality to stand out, but we all know that isn't how XBLA works really . Good stuff standing out in a huge crowd can only happen when a very good consumer rating system is driving the basic presentation of content, whereas XBLA is build of stuff like "recently added", "browse by genre" and "browse A-Z".

    Finding a good game has far more to do with reviews and word of mouth outside of XBLA than it does using the tool provided within it.

  • Bealsy #30 2 years ago

    Probably more to do with the fact that all XBLA games have demos, and 2/3rds of the ones I try are shit.

  • tachometer #31 2 years ago

    I agree that "ginger step-child" is a very poor choice of words which reflects poorly on the Joe Danger dev.

  • OllyJ #32 2 years ago

    Well I say it would sell more if they had put a demo out.

  • darleysam #33 2 years ago

    Could it be a twin-stick shooter? There really aren't enough of those around.



    It's too easy to be deadpan on the internet.

  • tossum #34 2 years ago

    @ Games Programmer: thank you for clarifying the whole thing for me, and writing what should have been included in the original fucking article.

    @EG: Terribly written article. tabloid headline, with very little explaination. Do better.

  • ronuds #35 2 years ago

    So... PSN has no arcade games that sell 25k or less?

    Here's a tip: release better games and people will buy them!

  • beastmaster #36 2 years ago

    I think demos are a must. There's quite a few great games that I would have either missed. Alternatively high rated games that I just didn't get on with.

  • itamae #37 2 years ago

    Murray's figures showed that 47 per cent of XBLA games sold less than 25,000 copies, 23 per cent sold around 100,000 copies, 13 per cent 200,000 copies and 17 per cent over 200,000 copies.

    So... that leaves an amazing 0% of games that sell between 25k and "around 100k" copies, or am I missing something?

  • TheJuriel #38 2 years ago

    I'm not seeing what makes PSN different. Less competition?

    My reaction to 'so many games sell less than 25k copies' is 'then make better/more interesting games'. I know it's the rare thing that grabs my eye in XBLA.

  • andywilkie35 #39 2 years ago

    Hahahaha "the ginger step-child", love it

  • Nithron #40 2 years ago

    What's the point in quoting the sales statistics of one platform then not the other? They're completely useless without a comparison.

    Also, "Our game sold well on XXX" doesn't immediately mean it "Would've bombed like a Micheal Bay movie with no boobs" on the other platform. We don't know, cause they didn't even try.

  • kinky_mong #41 2 years ago

    To be fair at least with a ginger step-child you can take comfort in the fact that it's not your genes that are the reason for his massive disability.

  • tachometer #42 2 years ago

    But surely you can't agree that if someone said Black step child or Jewish step child in a derogatory manner it would be acceptable?

  • dominalien #43 2 years ago

    "We don't know, cause they didn't even try. "

    Pay attention. They didn't try because self-publishing is impossible on XBLA for a small dev and all publishers rejected the game.

  • kangarootoo #44 2 years ago

    "We don't know, cause they didn't even try."

    All the time in business, people don't "know", but they can speculate accurately. if you don't go a certain way in business, it doesn't mean you have no way of knowing what the results might have been.


    Why are people reading this as if Murray is looking to slag off XBLA? Like its a personal insult to 360 fans that they chose not to go with XBLA? He is a businessman. They didn't go with PSN because "XBLA sukzor lulz", they did it for business reasons.

  • Syrette #45 2 years ago

    kangarootoo - there is a consumer rating system for XBLA. A very basic 1-5 star rating system admittedly but as you well know, that's at least something.

    Someone said something about demos = poor sales. With all due respect, and I can understand this, but if your game isn't good enough (and that's apparent from a trial) then it's the developer's fault. Of course some great games come out on XBLA and don't sell enough, but that's just how it goes unfortunately.

  • Downside #46 2 years ago

    "Ginger step child"? Jeez why not offend single parents and people with red hair at the same time.
    Not the sharpest tool is he?

  • mikeck #47 2 years ago

    kangarootoo - there is a consumer rating system for XBLA. A very basic 1-5 star rating system admittedly but as you well know, that's at least something.

    There is on PSN Store now too ;)

  • Kikizosan #48 2 years ago

    Why on Earth are all of the comments stating that using the term "ginger step-child" in the context it has been getting negative marks? It may be 'accepted' in mainstream culture to make fun of people with ginger hair, but it's still a form of bigotry. And there was no need for it to be used here in this context, so it's not beyond reason for some readers to pick up on it. If you're happy being a bigot, then by all means continue to neg such comments.

  • cianchristopher #49 2 years ago

    Uhhh, you idiots are aware that "red-headed stepchild" is a rather well-known and common description for something that is unwanted...

    Jeez, go outside once in a while. You might learn something about the world (and what goes on in it)...

  • Tiger_Walts #50 2 years ago

    The other barrier to XBLA is that there are many more compliance hoops to jump through. When you have a finished game, you want to ship as soon as possible and if you can only afford to launch on one platform then you go for the one that takes the least time and money.

    A publisher deal would have allowed for them to release on both but Hello Games were not willing to accede to their requests to change the game, of which I'm glad. The build they showed at the EG Expo was pretty much feature complete and a standout experience, any publisher who wanted to change it has obvioiusly never felt the joy of blue sky gaming before.

    Kudos to Sean and his team for sticking to their guns, I hope they sell enough on PSN so they get the option to release on PC or XBLA too, whether that be self funded or a publisher with some sense backs them.

  • mingster #51 2 years ago

    Yeah come on Ginger step child is a well known phrase.
    Ginger nut mickey taking is a long standing proud tradition in the UK and one that hasn't been pounced on yet by the politically correct brigade.

  • Kikizosan #52 2 years ago

    "Uhhh, you idiots are aware that "red-headed stepchild" is a rather well-known and common description for something that is unwanted... "

    Of course we know, you pleb, that doesn't stop it from being discriminatory. And your follow-up statement...grow up.

    And isn't Football hooliganism also a long-standing proud UK tradition. Let's encourage that some more too.

    I'm the first to stand against political correctness for the sake of it, but bigotry is still bigotry. There was absolutely zero need for the use of this term for this guy to get his point across.
    Edited by 1 at 13/07/10 @ 16:43

  • Chazmeister #53 2 years ago

    If a game sells less than 25000 on XBLA then it's probably because it isn't very good compared to the competion. If XBLA is a slaughter house for some small devs, then those small devs obviously need to up their game a bit to compete.

    PSN might be an easy ride at the moment but once the library starts to expand a fair bit and more games offer demo's, then I'd expect PSN to become every bit as cut and thrust as XBLA.

    At the end of the day I'm starting to see too many articles with indie devs moaning that people don't buy their games and wondering why. The simple answer is, if your game is fairly average, why should we when we can buy better games with that money?

  • metalangel #54 2 years ago

    So 'gingers' aside (I have no problem with them, so long as they are girls and hot like Faye Reagan)...

    IS JOE DANGER COMING TO XBLA, now that you've recouped your costs?

    I'd also say that XBLA is a 'slaughterhouse' because many of the games are 'shit' or 'too expensive'. 800MSP should be the limit for all but the absolute best stuff.

  • Syrette #55 2 years ago

    "The other barrier to XBLA is that there are many more compliance hoops to jump through."

    Not a bad thing iyam.

  • uzivatel #56 2 years ago

    The problem is, that even with hundreds of developers and multi-million budget game like Joe Danger is going to be virtually the same.

    @metalangel: too many developers think their stuff should be in that "absolute best stuff" category...
    Edited by 1 at 13/07/10 @ 17:01

  • darkmorgado #57 2 years ago

    @cianchristopher

    It was once common to call black people n*ggers and people with learning disabilities "retards", but we wouldn't do it now because of how derogatory, ignorant and offensive it is.

    Being common and well-known is not the same as being acceptable - just look at Katie Price.
    Edited by 1 at 13/07/10 @ 17:13

  • Lexx87 #58 2 years ago

    So any news on an XBLA release?

    PS3 purchase for me is far off (i.e need moneies) so i'd lap this up.

    But if they don't want my money then /shrug :p

  • kangarootoo #59 2 years ago

    @foreverafternothing

    "With all due respect, and I can understand this, but if your game isn't good enough (and that's apparent from a trial) then it's the developer's fault"

    I agree completely, but we need to be wary of assuming associations that aren't there. It may be the case that a bad game doesn't sell because it is a bad game, but that doesn't automatically mean that a good game WILL sell because it is a good game. Other factors are involved, so we can't use sales numbers as a reliable guide to quality (or at least, not in both directions).


    As I see it, the stream of the discussion seems to have gone like this.

    Dude says "XBLA isn't the ideal environment, as games can get lost in the crush".
    People say "if your game is good it will stand out in the crowd" (which I deem to be unsafe).
    Other people agree by saying "yeah, bad games don't sell because they are bad" (probably true - but not directly supportive of the point they are agreeing with)
    And suddenly we are at a point where the suggestion is that Murray put his game on PSN is because it is not a good game and it couldn't hack the competition.

    All he said was that XBLA is crowded, meaning it is harder to find an audience. That seems like a fair comment. And any dev is going to ask themselves whether they want the competition (from a business pov, regardless of the quality of their product).

  • kangarootoo #60 2 years ago

    "Uhhh, you idiots are aware that "red-headed stepchild" is a rather well-known and common description for something that is unwanted..."

    Much as I don't want to get into this discussion.... what?!?

    We didn't need the term explaining to us ffs. Are you going to explain the term kaffir to us next, as a justification for its use in some parts of the world.

    Seriously, that was an eye rolling moment right there.

  • darkmorgado #61 2 years ago

    Are you going to explain the term kaffir to us next

    As far as I'm concerned, when I hear the word "kaffir" I just think of kaffir lime leaves, because I use them quite a lot when I'm making a curry.

  • darkmorgado #62 2 years ago

    @tigerstyle

    The statistics are probably cumulative - so a game that is included in the stat for selling 200,000 copies would also be included in the stat for games that sold 100,000, etc, so it's not as simple as just adding up the percentages.

    As many others have said, without further information and stats from the PS3 side, his argument is meaningless; and as mentioned, by focussing on average game sales he is distorting (possibly on purpose) the bigger picture.

    I'd be more interested to see if there are direct correlations between press/user reviews and sales of download games, for example, and the same for price. Also, sales aren't the same as profit - a download game might sell over 100,000 copies but it might not claw back a profit depending on its dev costs.

    Frankly, as long as I at least broke even, I wouldn't particularly give a damn about the sales.
    Edited by 1 at 13/07/10 @ 18:00

  • uzivatel #63 2 years ago

    @darkmorgado: Not cumulative, the 200,000+ number is higher than the 100,000+ number.
    Its probably meant to be:

    less than 25,000 copies - 47%
    25,000 - 100,000 copies - 23%
    100,000 - 200,000 copies - 13%
    more than 200,000 copies - 17%
    Edited by 1 at 13/07/10 @ 18:05

  • Vyggo #64 2 years ago

    This is just a typical case of someone arguing a decision that was made for them, not by them. They couldn't find a publisher to release the game on the XBLA, so now PSN was all of a sudden the better business choice.

    I am quite certain Joe Danger would sell in the 100k+ range, probably even 200k+ on XBLA. The game seems high quality with a very catchy style. If you look at how amazing Trials HD sold, this game would defiantely ride on the succes of that game, being more light hearted and less challenging.

  • caligari #65 2 years ago

    Dizzy = flying the flag for fanboys since 1981.

  • Spungles #66 2 years ago

    Those publisher comments aren't even funny. To think that anyone makes decisions on which games to publish by those criteria just winds me up. Especially the monkey thing. That sounds like it comes from an ignorant arsehole who is only in the industry for the coke and getting his fireman wet.

    How many ideas have these people ruined already?

  • Syrette #67 2 years ago

    Didn't realise the games industry was one to be in if you're after coke and "getting your fireman wet".

    Devs and publishers aren't on the level of music and movie stars yet, at least I thought they weren't.

  • darkmorgado #68 2 years ago

    Hey, everyone should get their fireman wet!

    Makes them more flame-retardent ;-)

  • Charlie_Miso #69 2 years ago

    Spot the rangas in the comments section.

  • darkmorgado #70 2 years ago

    rangas? You mean gingers?

    Actually no, I have black hair. I do, however have Asperger's Syndrome and I am also gay, and I work for a mental health charity. So I object to any sort of discrimination or derogatory remarks, no matter how "petty" or "harmless" people think they are because I know first hand the damage they can cause to people's lives.

    Just because some people think a comment is a "harmless joke" doesn't mean that it does not have a serious effect on some people. And the effect snowballs - there is a scale of prejudice that has been proven time and time again: Joking/teasing - discrimination - isolation - prejudice - violence - death/genocide.

    Laugh all you want, but it does happen and when it does, everyone turns round and says "we never thought it could get to this". Its a slippery slope and the second we say it is ok to accept one form of discrimination or bigotry against people we perceive as "different", for whatever the reason, we open the floodgates to everything else.

  • grayn #71 2 years ago

    Man, these gingers sure are touchy.

  • paultendo #72 2 years ago

    I personally thought 'ginger step-child' was pretty funny, and given my mixed background I've had to deal with a certain amount of racial abuse in the past.

    Get over it people, it was meant light-heartedly and you should take it as such... the world would be a far better place if we could freely make jokes about race/culture without the PC brigade sniffing out for bad taste like a pack of trained dogs.

    Back to the point though, it's always nice to see a good game by a small dev do well, although I thought their success was due more to the media attention, rather than the console it was released on?

  • darkmorgado #73 2 years ago

    @paultendo

    well done on missing the point.

  • swisstony #74 2 years ago

    "As a rule of thumb i will not buy downloadable games from PSN (joe danger did look interesting however) because there is no demo to try before I buy"

    Is there any point to game reviews then?

  • Steroyd #75 2 years ago

    So the game has a 53% chance of selling at least double what it sold on PSN then. Sounds good to me.

    You've compared life time sales of XBLA titles to week 1 sales on PSN and came to this conclusion? Behave!

  • RobTheBuilder #76 2 years ago

    Demos: Surely if you are buying a game from an uinknown small developer, you would never gamble on it without a demo.

    Of course this article isn't an assault on xbla, but it does appear to be giving PSN credit for JD's publicity, good reviews and smaller competition.

  • kangarootoo #77 2 years ago

    Its interesting that using ginger hair as an insult has caused more outrage than using the term step-child as an insult. Both are bad, but I know which I think is worse.

    /is neither, but only idiots assume that objectors must also be "sufferers".

  • edhe #78 2 years ago

    Ok - so mocking black people because of their colour = bad. Mocking indian because of their colour = bad, mocking anyone because of their colour or creed is bad, except white people. Mocking white people because of their colour = socially acceptable?

    So if it's sociably acceptable to call people with red hair gingers, is it sociably acceptable to call black folk niggers? Hell it's practically the same word afterall, just swap two letters!

    Just because someone uses an old racist term and there hasn't been a civil movement about it still doesn't make it right nor inoffensive. I'm regularly appalled that the press still use such a bigoted term - and everyone seems to think it's just fine because 'it's for fun!'.

    Pretty sure that's how most racism starts in the first place.

    And, as expected i get my karma put down because some idiot thinks it's just fine to mock them, as long as they're gingers they're second class citizens after all!
    Edited by 1 at 14/07/10 @ 09:55

  • edhe #79 2 years ago

    @84
    Regardless of whatever your colouring is, using a colour-based derogatory term in this day and age, especially in a publication, is just shameful.

  • seabassuk #80 2 years ago

    "Can Joe be a monkey? We like monkeys."

    This phrase has to be made into a meme. With the 'Joe' replaced by anyother word e.g. "Can Eurogamer be a monkey? We like monkeys."

  • RobTheBuilder #81 2 years ago

    Re: Prejudice argument: [link url=http://www .youtube.com/watch?v=elWV9tJRotA
    ]http://www .youtube.com/watch?v=elWV9tJRotA
    [/link]

  • Beardedmonkey #82 2 years ago

    He's clearly saying that being dismissive of a developer based on their size is just as stupid as pre-judging a child because of it's hair colour.

    At no point does he denigrate Ginger children, he simply compares one baseless prejudice with another.

    If he'd said "Small developers are like Ginger kids: they're useless and should be drowned at birth" I'd be right with you, but he didn't.

    I find it ironic that so many of the people who have wilfully misinterpreted this quote in order to indulge in some holier-than-thou, self-conglatulatory hand-wringing would be up-in-arms whenever Keith Vaz or the rest of the anti-gaming lobby indulge in similar knee-jerk episodes.

    It's a shame because it's distracted from the point of the piece: an interesting insight into the way that small developers have to approach the task of getting their work out to as many people as possible and the various difficult decisions and compromises that that entails.

  • zedzee #83 2 years ago

    Well, perhaps Joe Danger is sh*te and couldn't hold a candle versus the others already on XBLA. And the only way to sell more copies was to put it out on a network that's starving for such cheap titles...?

    More like Goodbye Games.

  • Caimbeul #84 2 years ago

    I dont like monkeys.

  • Steroyd #85 2 years ago

    Demos: Surely if you are buying a game from an uinknown small developer, you would never gamble on it without a demo.

    Demoes aren't everything, while it is appreciative that MS has made a demo per game there are times when the demo isn't fully representative of the product (quite a few times I'm told this), also PSN has a trailer for virtually every title out there, including mini's which can be just as good an alternative to get an idea of how the game plays.

    So if it's sociably acceptable to call people with red hair gingers, is it sociably acceptable to call black folk niggers? Hell it's practically the same word afterall, just swap two letters!

    Just because someone uses an old racist term and there hasn't been a civil movement about it still doesn't make it right nor inoffensive. I'm regularly appalled that the press still use such a bigoted term - and everyone seems to think it's just fine because 'it's for fun!'.

    Ah, but what about Black people who call other black people n*ggers?

    Lets face it the times have changed, it's very hard to act as a bigot against other ethnicities anyway, comedians almost always rip into their race, and we laugh at it we don't go "Oh shit that black guy just called another black n*gger, I'm apalled at this joke." And it's almost always someone who ISN'T of said race that is up in arms and appalled about this stuff.

  • edhe #86 2 years ago

    @92 - you're missing the point.

    I don't care so much about what people say to eachother, or what stand-up comedians say you *expect* some form of denigration on stage as it's artistic license - doesn't make it right either.

    As for a publication... well that's different. The fact is that red haired folk are the butt of a lot of crap just because they're different. It's no more or less fair than mocking someone for their skin tone, disability, sexuality or foreign accent. It's what their born with, not chosen to be.

  • RobTheBuilder #87 2 years ago

    @Steroyd - Exactly (ish) - watch the video link for my view

  • Cherub007 #88 2 years ago

    @ tossum

    I apologise now, but this is the kind of thing which really gets my goat.
    Dev calls XBLA a slaughterhouse for small devs. EG headline: "XBLA "a slaughterhouse" for small devs." Then quotes said developer calling XBLA "a slaughterhouse".
    Tabloid headline.... how?
    There's also nothing wrong with the article. It's accurate and concise.
    GamesProgrammer then provided a reasoned and intelligent analyis, which Rob Purchese probably could have done himself if he wasn't busy being all professional and simply reporting the facts, like good reporters do.

  • Collymilad #89 2 years ago

    Jesus christ, get over the ginger step child thing.

    People are such whining little shits these days, everyone is offended by something to the point where you almost can't say anything. Say what you like about the guys use of it, but grow the fuck up it's no big deal.

  • Acrid #90 2 years ago

    "Can Joe be a monkey? We like monkeys."

    Why this didn't happen is beyond me

  • edhe #91 2 years ago

    @96 - and you sir are the problem. I guess 30 years ago you'd be saying the same things about black folk, or gays. "Insult them as you like, they're just being silly for being offended!"

    It's the shallow idiots like you that need to 'grow up'.