Sony's response to Church in full

By Games Industry.biz Published 11 June, 2007

Taking it all "very seriously".

SCEE has issued an official response to complaints by the Church of England over PlayStation 3 game Resistance: Fall of Man.

"Sony Computer Entertainment Europe is aware of the concerns expressed by the Bishop of Manchester and the Cathedral authorities about the use of Manchester Cathedral in the game Resistance: Fall of Man, and we naturally take their concerns very seriously," the statement reads.

"Resistance: Fall of Man is a fantasy science fiction game and is not based on reality. The game is set in an alternate and mythical version of Europe in the 1950s, in which the enemy are strange looking alien invaders seeking to destroy humanity.

"Whilst we believe that we have sought and received all permissions necessary for the creation of the game, we will be contacting the Cathedral authorities in order to better understand their concerns in more detail."

As reported earlier, the Church of England has demanded an apology from Sony over the depiction of Manchester Cathedral in Resistance: Fall of Man. According to Church authorities Sony did not get permission to feature the Cathedral in the game.

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Comments (102) Latest comment 5 years ago

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  • ZuluHero #1 5 years ago

    "Resistance: Fall of Man is a fantasy science fiction game and is not based on reality. The game is set in an alternate and mythical version of Europe in the 1950s, in which the enemy are strange looking alien invaders seeking to destroy humanity."

    Damn striaght - you can't blame an alien for not understanding what we deem as holy ground, and i think that in the interest of saving humanity, a shoot-out in a church is a small price to pay! :p

    On the flip side, it is just a game... but i think sony is onto a winner with the quoted arguement :)
    Edited by 1 at 11/06/07 @ 09:51

  • Salaman #2 5 years ago

    Clever ploy there. Wait for Sony to sell millions, then come and hold up your hand saying you're offended and want cash.

  • chrisjm #3 5 years ago

    if it was in a film with the same plot no one would care

  • Retroid #4 5 years ago

    Sony: Churchlol

  • CivilD #5 5 years ago

    I'm glad Sony are taking this seriously. Only the other day I considered fighting off alien invasions down at my local worshipping hole.

  • MightyMouse #6 5 years ago

    The irony is that the church want the money to finance an 18-30 recruitment drive. Total own goal.

  • Wyrm #7 5 years ago

    As a post on b3ta said, the Church didn't get my permission to use my planet as the base for their fairytale bullshit.

  • WriterUK #8 5 years ago

    Church officially loses touch with reality and fiction. News at Ten.

  • The-Bodybuilder #9 5 years ago

    @ Salaman

    They don't want cash, they want an apology.

  • AcidSnake #10 5 years ago

    LOL @Wyrm...

    I'll remember that one...

  • magnemar #11 5 years ago

    In all fairness, the cash they are asking for is going to anti-gun education so it's not exactly money-grabbing.

    I think we're going to see a lot more of this sort of thing as the industry matures - the market is large enough now to be influential as a social voice so it'll get debated more in the public eye.

    I think it's nice to see the church standing up for itself.

  • Talha #12 5 years ago

    Wait - why only Resistance? Every game from HL to GoW to God of War (LOL) has used religious settings or story elements. I am a religious person, but So far as I know, no one has deliberately insulted any religion in any game.

    So what's the point?

  • Darren #13 5 years ago

    I don't think the problem is that the setting is a church/holy place, it's the fact that it is a real place, Manchester Cathedral. Presumably Insomnia asked for permission to use the cathedral in the first place and, if so, then they must have said it was OK. If Insomnia didn't then they deserve to be reprimanded for not going through the proper channels but I find it hard to believe that they ask first, in which case the Cathedral is to blame for not checking what it was being used for, surely?

    Personally, I think it's an overreaction... I remember a section in Call of Duty on the PC which had you shooting Nazis (i.e people not aliens) from the inside ruins of a church and no-one complained about that... but then it was in France not the UK...

  • citizenHUNTER #14 5 years ago

    "As a post on b3ta said, the Church didn't get my permission to use my planet as the base for their fairytale bullshit." - Thank you, just brightened up my morning! Which is the only comment I'll make on this shambles.

  • septimus #15 5 years ago

    Fricking religious nuttery.

    Do the Church need to sue for more money? Maybe abusing choir boys is getting risky and paying for rent boys is less problematic, but damn they get expensive.

    Edited by 1 at 11/06/07 @ 10:05

  • Wite_Noiz #16 5 years ago

    I've not played Resistance, but can some who has confirm whether there are any people involved in the shoot-out?
    The news showed a clip and it was clearly army-types versus alien bug things; but they then described how "many innocents" are killed during the shoot-out - which they implied was what the church was most displeased with.

    Interesting how they haven't picked on Hellgate: London yet.

  • Steroyd #17 5 years ago

    Clever ploy there. Wait for Sony to sell millions, then come and hold up your hand saying you're offended and want cash.

    They were interviewed yesturday and the BBC asked

    "The game has already sold 1 million why are you filing this complaint now?"

    "... erm... we... er... Only found out about the games existence on Friday"

    I don't think they know why they're complaining, it's gone from shooting people (which are clearly Alien-esque things) to you did not have permission to use the Church.

    It's based in an alternate reality 1950's era, bah!!

  • JohnnyWashnGo #18 5 years ago

    @Wyrm

    That just made me cough up my morning coffee all over the keyboard :)

    Fairytale bullshit... I think I need a tee with that on !!

  • Nithron #19 5 years ago

    Hallelujah!

  • SeesThroughAll #20 5 years ago

    I'm shocked at their responsible reaction.

    Are you sure this is Sony?

  • sickpuppysoftware #21 5 years ago

    Can the people of Manchester sue the church? After all they encouraged us to go round putting little bits of paper on our tongues and from there sprung the whole Madchester scene and the gun crime.

  • X201 #22 5 years ago

    "Do the Church need to sue for more money?"

    Up until a few years a go they were a major shareholder in Plessy and other firms that made their money from bombs and missiles.

  • andyk #23 5 years ago

    why exactly does insomina need permission? It is not like they have actually used the church. Besides the church itslef in the game is a ruin.

    If they had sneeaked into the chruch and filmed a shoot-out I could understand, but it is complete fantasy.

  • AcidSnake #24 5 years ago

    @X201:

    Ah, but doesn't the bible say:
    The LORD is a man of war: the LORD is his name.

    Exodus 15:3 by the way...
    So that justifies them doesn't it?

  • PearOfAnguish #25 5 years ago

    Can you claim copyright on a building? Nobody in London had a problem with them recreating the city centre for The Getaway's violent shenanigans.

    Up until a few years a go they were a major shareholder in Plessy and other firms that made their money from bombs and missiles.

    Holy hand grenades!
    Edited by 2 at 11/06/07 @ 10:39

  • spadge #26 5 years ago

    More like in-game advertising. They should cough up :-)

  • Darren #27 5 years ago

    @Wite_Noiz - There's a 5-10 minute section in the single player /co-op campaign where you fight your way through the cathedral against Chimera-infested humans, etc., but the cathedral also features in the Manchester multiplayer map which allows you to shoot other human players inside and on the roof so I guess that is what the church are complaining about.

    I'm sure all this adverse publically will do wonders for sales of the game though! LOL

  • rudedudejude #28 5 years ago

    hahaha, what a crock of crap.

    The Church should be looking at their child abuse statistics rather than worrying about crap like this.

  • LOLLERS #29 5 years ago

    Why use a real church? It's only ever going to end badly.

  • Beano #30 5 years ago

    "The Church should be looking at their child abuse statistics rather than worrying about crap like this."

    Right on!

  • Darren #31 5 years ago

    @AndyK - I was under the impression that you need permission to feature any real-life building in a game as I recall Bizarre Creations saying a few years back how complex and time-consuming it was for them to get the rights to use the locations they feature in the PGR games. I would therefore presume that Insomnia would also have had to obtain permission to use the few real-life landmarks featured in Resistance, which wouldn't have been a problem anyway as most of the game isn't factually accurate otherwise.

  • rhinoxious #32 5 years ago

    I don't think the church angle really makes a difference. The real question here is can you recreate and use the name and likeness of any privately owned building, say canary wharf, or in this case Manchester Cathedral, without the permission of the owner of said building.

    I'd say probably not, especially if you namecheck the building too. As it's someone elses property and they are probably promoting and selling the likeness themselves for commercial purposes.

  • penhalion #33 5 years ago

    The church is as popular as a nail through the foot. It is responsible for many a massacre in the name of religion and the crusades were a church sanctioned war for heaven sake!

    If I were the bishop I'd have shut up and started whistling inconspicuously pretending the whole thing didn't exist.

  • crisotunity #34 5 years ago


    intepid.com/2005 -04-27/12.25/

  • lance.carter #35 5 years ago

    Poor Bish is still angry at Richard Dawkins making the Christians sound like the bunch of lunatics that most religious groups tend to be...

    [link url=http://www.metro.co.uk/fame /interviews/article.html?in_article_id=52341&in_page_id=11
    ]    http://ww w.metro.co.uk/fame/interviews/a...[/link]

    Sony must have been the nearest person when they lashed out.

  • attacanteblue #36 5 years ago

    Ok, this is my first post as I normally lurk. I'm a Christian, and I'm also a senior programmer in the games industry, so I'm not a n00b - but I feel I should have a word.

    Firstly - I can almost guarantee that proper permission wasn't sought. What with the general level of suspicion towards the games industry by religious types, don't you think it'd be a bit odd that the Church would allow images to be used without inquiring what the game was about? The minute they found out it'd involve guns, they'd have put the kibosh on it before it got started. So either no permission was asked for, or else someone told fibs to get the permission - either way, the Church is in the right on this one - expect an apology before too long from the relevant parties.

    Secondly - the Church are right to kick up a fuss. They aren't being all stuffy and religious. Manchester has a serious gun problem - no-one's gonna argue that - and the Cathedral has been working with groups at street level to help sort it out - to set a game that glorifies shooting (whether it's aimed at humans or aliens doesn't really matter) - in the very Cathedral that opposes gun toting of all kinds is just plain crappy. The Church isn't worried about "shooting in a place of worship" it's about the idea that somehow the church condones it's building being used in a shoot-up.

  • Og #37 5 years ago

    @attacanteblue
    Good point.

    /fanboi mode
    All hail Lord Sony!1!1!1

  • LOLLERS #38 5 years ago

    It's the equivalent of setting a level in a school, regardless of your opinions of the people complaining, what makes you think it's going to be well received!

  • AcidSnake #39 5 years ago

    @attacanteblue:
    I feel I should have a word
    Free country :)

    Just one thing about your post though which I actually said in the other thread
    I can almost guarantee that proper permission wasn't sought

    The fact highlighted by EG themselves in the original article seems to rest on the fact that the permissions which are needed are actually obtained...It doesn't specify if the church had to be informed...Maybe the city council was asked and they agreed...

  • zuljin #40 5 years ago

    @attacanteblue
    "The Church isn't worried about "shooting in a place of worship" it's about the idea that somehow the church condones it's building being used in a shoot-up."

    Considering how the church condemns people to die every single day, I don't think this is an argument they can validly use.

    The Church is against vaccinations (because they kill babies for that doncha know), and against condoms (why bother, it doesn't stop the AIDs virus anyway). People die every single year because of wrong information spread by the "Church Science department".

    Don't get me wrong, Sony marketing has made a few booboos in the past year, but something tells me the Church needs to seriously consider their own methods of operation, before critisising a game they most likely haven't even looked at.
    Edited by 1 at 11/06/07 @ 11:09

  • NthSimulachum #41 5 years ago

    "The LORD is a man of war: the LORD is his name.

    Exodus 15:3 by the way... "

    God is a jellyfish?

  • AcidSnake #42 5 years ago

    @Nth:
    What?...
    I don't get it....

  • sanctusmortis #43 5 years ago

    It smells of cheap publicity for me.

    PS3 sales are underwhelming to many.
    Public interest/knowledge of PS3 is low.
    Resistance is a focal point of Sony's campaign.

    Suddenly, the church takes offence and they're on the front page of all t5he online news networks, even on the BBC evening news.

    Hmm.

  • attacanteblue #44 5 years ago

    @zuljin

    Please don't assume that everyone in the Church thinks the same way. The two examples you give are not Church of England (to which the Cathedral belongs) positions - and there are many Christian bodies who work tirelessly (often voluntarily) to help eradicate child poverty and early death throughout the world - accepting the best practices of science and medicine as a guide.

    It doesn't fit in to Dawkins' tidy little "all-religion-is-bad" box, but it is true, nevertheless.

  • Overlush #45 5 years ago

    Pathetic insecure religious zealots

  • NoCodeNed2 #46 5 years ago

    @Wite_Noiz - "I've not played Resistance, but can some who has confirm whether there are any people involved in the shoot-out?"

    If memory serves, there are about 4 fellow soldiers who get it in the gun fight and a few bodies of previous fallen comrades lying around.

    The rest are the nasty little scorpion-like creatures that suck your face off, followed by some bigger shoot-y aliens and a couple of the hellish dog-like beasties.

    It's quite a good shoot-out actually...I might revisit. Thanks to the church for reminding me of it.

  • Overlush #47 5 years ago

    It would have been better had there been some choir boys to shotgun

  • Og #48 5 years ago

    @NthSimulachum
    c'mon man, stop these childish attempts to provoke outrage on the church.

  • Steroyd #49 5 years ago

    Secondly - the Church are right to kick up a fuss. They aren't being all stuffy and religious. Manchester has a serious gun problem - no-one's gonna argue that.

    Then who's the ****tard that let Insomiac use Manchester at all in their game, if it's such a sensitive subject?

    Why the church in particular when there's a whole damn City Insomiac has named Manchester in their game.

  • MENTAL1ST Verified Senior Software Engineer, Picsel UK Ltd. #50 5 years ago

    Richard Dawkins is as much of a nutter as many of those religious types.

    And not very easy to read.

  • zuljin #51 5 years ago

    @attacanteblue
    No I realise that. I'd like to think I'm quite openminded towards religion, after all, it has helped so many people find their own way of life. But it is reading articles about topics I mentioned, and seeing cartoons demonizing theories of evolution (etc) that get me angry.

    So much so that I really do fail to see the point of any organised religion, where certain people can get so elevated they become corrupt.

  • attacanteblue #52 5 years ago

    @zuljin

    You and me both mate.

    @Steroyd

    Because having your city feature in an international game is a potential boon for tourism (which believe it or not Manchester is quite keen on). It's amazing how often pound signs can make you blind to secondary issues.

  • AcidSnake #53 5 years ago

    Some things I've just read on cnn.com:

    the new PlayStation 3 game, "Resistance: Fall of Maninside,"

    Kinda like intel inside I guess...

    demanding an apology and a large donation to be used in its work with young people

    Now that is sick, at least use it to combat the gun-violence, not to continue the religious propaganda...

    "Throughout the whole process we have sought permission where necessary." (quoted from Sony)

    Again I think that the church might not have a legal case...

  • Steroyd #54 5 years ago

    That doesn't make any sense, what's the difference between using Manchester City in a game where it's a war torn battle ground to increase tourism, and a Church that's a little segment of that war torn battle ground that could increase attendances which is what the Church would ultimately want.

  • RexRunti #55 5 years ago

    OK I'm as secular as they come and a devout athiest but I think the church here has a point. Not on the "all computer games are evil" front but on the "we didn't give you permission" front... assuming they didn't.

    Manchester Cathedral is owned by the Curch of England (not the catholic church as some people have been assuming) and therefore permission needs to be granted to use its likeness. And oh yes you do need permission for films, New York is very expensive and a lot of the films that would be set there are being moved to cheaper locations. In one of the old batmans (the one with Jim Carey) there is a shot of the stautue of David (the naked italian with no arms) which was used without permission and the studio had to pay a healthy fee and settle out of court for the movie to air. However CofE really need to ask for money/games removed from shelves otherwise all they're doing is giving Sony is publicity.

    PS. The pessimist in side me is not ruling out a publicity stunt.
    PPS. CofE is pro condoms + evolution + women. I'm all for relgion bashing but only if you get your facts right (try homosexuality or shares in weapon manufactures if you want to have a go).

  • haowan #56 5 years ago

    @attacanteblue

    So it's a boon for the city if you let soldiers run around shooting guns in an historical allegory, but it's a crime against the Church if they're doing so in the cathedral? Do I smell double standards?

    If they'd had the Priesthood manufacturing guns and giving them out to 13-year-old soldiers, then I might be able to sympathise with the Church's position on this. As it is, it's just pointless reactionary nonsense which typifies the Church's position on video games.

  • RexRunti #57 5 years ago

    @haowan

    The issue is actually about permission and the use of likenesses. The "moral" arguments are entirely irrelavant.

  • reprev #58 5 years ago

    Before we start spouting more anti-church sillyness, can we get our facts right? The Church of England is not Catholic, and as far as I'm aware, doesn't fight vaccination and condom use. Nor is there a large history of abuse (again, confusion with the Catholic church), although whilst I'm on that point, such acts occur more frequently by non-religious people, I'm sure.

    The request for an apology is perfectly merited, based on the work they try and do to reduce gun crime.

  • haowan #59 5 years ago

    Moreover, if the Church would like to fight gun crime, it could spend its time and money on far more productive efforts than attacking a video game set in Manchester that contains fictional warfare against an alien race. If there really is a permission row here, then that's fine, but it sounds like that's being used as leverage by the Church in order for them to advance this pointless crusade.

  • haowan #60 5 years ago

    @RexRunti:

    From the other EG article:

    "Church officials are concerned that the cathedral is being used as a backdrop to gun violence given Manchester's history of gun crime and the cathedral's role in campaigns against guns, and those concerns are mingling with a potential legal row over whether Sony sought permission to use the famous building. The Church says no. Sony says yes."

  • zuljin #61 5 years ago

    @RexRunti
    I did actually know that... But the CoE/Protestant/Catholics all merge into one for me.

    Not right I know, and not an excuse, just a reason.

    Have to say, I don't agree with your "and therefore permission needs to be granted to use its likeness". To use a city in a book you do not need permission. Paparazzi do not need permission to photograph people that are in the public interest. I'm not saying: The church is wrong!, but I don't think this is an easy open and shut case either.

  • rudedudejude #62 5 years ago

    "demanding an apology and a large donation to be used in its work with young people"

    hehe, made me chuckle. I think the Church should calm down it's activites with young people tbh.

  • MGG #63 5 years ago

    Um, unless the church in the game is a perfect replica of the actual church (which as its in ruins it is not) why would this be any different to a film that is denied filimg permission making a mock-up? They do it all the time, why would a game be any different?

    Its not often I say this, and it does kind of make me die a little inside, but I agree with Sony on this one.

    I don't feel well......

  • Stormflood #64 5 years ago

    @RexRunti

    Manchester Cathedral is owned by the Curch of England (not the catholic church as some people have been assuming) and therefore permission needs to be granted to use its likeness.

    Only permission to film on the property is required. And the cathedral is not protected by any copyright laws, so the likeness is a free-for-all.

    And oh yes you do need permission for films, New York is very expensive and a lot of the films that would be set there are being moved to cheaper locations... snip
    Commercial films need permissions due to streets being closed off, policing requirements and general inconvience. Video games do not.

  • ryohazuki1983 #65 5 years ago

    yeah just read it, here u go mate.


    Enterbrain (publisher of Famitsu) released its monthly sales data for May 2007 today, and the Nintendo fever that has struck Japan shows no signs of abating any time soon. Famitsu reported that the overall gaming market continued its forward momentum for the month, increasing more than 10% over the same period last year.

    Hardware-wise the big winner was unsurprisingly the DS Lite, which topped 600,000 units sold for the month. These sales accounted for almost 56% of hardware sales for the month. This puts the life-to-date sales for the handheld at 17,152,000 units (this number includes the DS Phat). Meanwhile, Sony's PSP had a strong month as well, topping 120,000 units sold in May.



    On the console side of things, the top seller was the Wii, which sold through more than 250,000 units. The Wii was followed by the PS2 at just over 53,000 and the PS3 with around 45,000 units. Rounding out the sales data was the Xbox 360 at 11,000 units and the GBA SP at a little over 2,000 units. According to this data, Nintendo platforms accounted for more than 78 percent of the total hardware sales for the month of May

  • WhyMeeeeee #66 5 years ago

    If the church wants to raise money, they should start selling t shirts with aliens on now

  • login_name #67 5 years ago

    If the church is that upset and concerned about the inclusion of it's cathedral then they need to voice their anger at the developer. They are the ones who included it, not the publisher.

    Sure, Sony could pull the title and ask for it to be fixed, but they do not owe an apology. Asking for monetary compensation weakens the church's argument even further and, to me, just shows what this is all really about.

    Upset and angry, fine, ask Insomniac for an apology. Ask Sony, politely, to remove the game from the shelves and for the content to be tweaked. No money, no threats, no overacting drama.

  • Steroyd #68 5 years ago

    If the church is that upset and concerned about the inclusion of it's cathedral then they need to voice their anger at the developer. They are the ones who included it, not the publisher.

    No it should be Sony they're responsible for everything, Sony is the one that funded the game, Sony is the one who checks all the legalities, and Sony is the one that receives the profit/loss from the game sales etc etc.

  • andromeda #69 5 years ago

    SONY vs THE BISHOP OF MANCHESTER

    LOL

  • andromeda #70 5 years ago

    all a smokescreen to hide behind while they continue to put their man sausages up prepubescent man bottom..
    Edited by 1 at 11/06/07 @ 13:58

  • manic_mouse #71 5 years ago

    So as Insomniac didn't need permission since they weren't filming there, the cathedral isn't protected by copyright law AND it's not an exact replica used in the game. And, on the other issue regarding "violence" in the church, with said violence being done against an invading alien race in a fictitious universe. I think the Church doesn't really have anything to be complaining about. As was said earlier:

    "pointless reactionary nonsense which typifies the Church's position on video games."

    +1
    Edited by 2 at 11/06/07 @ 14:06

  • Lov3 #72 5 years ago

    @RexRunti: Good point about David, for sure. But I think you'll find a legal distinction between something that is both hidden from public viewing (i.e. can't be seen from publicly owned land, like the street) and literally being charging money for photographic reproductions, and this case.

    At the very least, if someone wanted to draw a picture of David, or make a computer model of it, they would be perfectly able to do so. That is protected under fair use law over here, if i'm not mistaken, and under the first amendment in the US. Given that the church is open to the public, there isn't even the expectation that Sony would need to be admitted, and therefore have any kind of verbal contract with the church. They may not have even gone there for all we know, there are plenty of photos on the internet of the inside of the cathedral.

    I believe they could make the case (as they seem to be) that the use of the cathedral's likeness for a commercial venture is damaging for it's image. Considering the gang violence claims they are making, it seems that the setting of Resistance is far enough removed that an actual lawsuit wouldn't be brought.

    Despite all this, Sony is doing what good PR people do (for once) and actually trying to resolve things with them. If push comes to shove though, I would bet good money that Resistance will stay on the shelves.

  • rudedudejude #73 5 years ago

    andromeda +1

  • secombe #74 5 years ago

    Whilst we believe that we have sought and received all permissions necessary for the creation of the game...

    They 'believe'?!? Good to know they still have all the appropriate paperwork then ;)
    Edited by 2 at 11/06/07 @ 14:31

  • login_name #75 5 years ago

    "No it should be Sony they're responsible for everything, Sony is the one that funded the game, Sony is the one who checks all the legalities, and Sony is the one that receives the profit/loss from the game sales etc etc."

    That is only the case if Sony did not get permission, which is yet to be proved. That is a purely legal action. This is not just about that, it's also about the moral issue of including the building in the first place due to it's history with gun related crime. That part of their complaint is not Sony's problem. It's the developers. Sony do not owe an apology, Insomniac do.

    If their issue is about the cathedral being used without permission, then that is Sony's problem. If it's about it being used at all, then that's Insomniacs problem. They decided to include it, not Sony. Sony have the responsibility as a business to get permission, if they get it, it's no longer a concern of theirs.

    The church is not clear on what it's objecting against. Is it about using it without permission or is it about using it at all? Is it a respect issue or a legal issue? One of these is Sony's problem if they didn't get permission. The other is not Sony's problem.

    What they need to ask themselves is, do we want an apology or some cash compensation? Are we appalled or just angry they didn't ask?

  • magnemar #76 5 years ago

    Can we just get past the whole 'Religion causes wars thing' - the crusades were 800 years ago and were fought for control of land- religion was the excuse used by bigoted racist thugs to justify their land grabbing. Adolf Hitler, Pol Pot, Stalin - all athiest, yet they are conveniently forgotten when it comes to the crunch.

  • AcidSnake #77 5 years ago

    @login_name:
    They seek both an apology and a "large donation"...
    They describe it as 'sick'...

    IMO anything open to the general public may be copied in other media, be it movies, books or games...
    Whether or not it is good taste is another matter...I actually think that Sony have the law on their side this time....

    EDIT: @magnemar:
    Horrible people sure, but don't forget recent slaughters and wars for religion...
    Israel and Palestina...
    Pakistan and India...
    And until a decade ago Northern Ireland...
    You can't ignore that a lot of people use religion as the basis for hatred...
    I see how religion has brought about great things like aid and charity all around the world...But IMO religions are outdated now, they serve no real purpose other than personal relief...So they should ,to put it bluntly, pipe down a bit...

    EDIT 2: Sorry, included some factual incorrect data...
    Edited by 2 at 11/06/07 @ 14:50

  • zuljin #78 5 years ago

    @magnemar
    "Can we just get past the whole 'Religion causes wars thing' - the crusades were 800 years ago and were fought for control of land- religion was the excuse used by bigoted racist thugs to justify their land grabbing. Adolf Hitler, Pol Pot, Stalin - all athiest, yet they are conveniently forgotten when it comes to the crunch."

    Minor difference tho, Adolf Hitler never commited atrocities in the name of religion. He was just a nutjob. And wasn't atheist either. And yes the crusades were 800 years ago.

    So what about the role of the Catholic church in WW2?

  • agparrot #79 5 years ago

    I don't see the problem - it isn't even the real Manchester Cathedral, it is an Alternative Reality Manchester Cathedral, so unless Sony need permission from the alternative reality bishop, what is the deal, eh?

    /vague sarcasm

  • haowan #80 5 years ago

    All bishops are interested in alternate reality :)

  • kangarootoo #81 5 years ago

    @AcidSnake

    I thikn the point magnemar is making is that religeon was just the convenient excuse for the crusades. Citing current examples where religeon is being used as an excuse does mean religeon is responsible in these cases any more than it was ever responsible.

    Here is the crunch. Religeon never started a single war, it never took a single life, it never burned a single house. People did all these things. People sometimes use religeon as an excuse, they sometimes use race as an excuse, they sometimes use history as an excuse. But its all just people looking for an excuse, and if it wasn't religeon it would be something else.

    For the record, I am a dyed in the wool aetheist. And when I was in my teens and very early 20s I was just as anti religeon as some of the posters on here. But then I grew up, understood all the facts, and realised I was talking nonsense.

    For every bad person out there involved with the church I could probably point at a good one, AND I could also a total c*nt who is also an aetheist. All this tells us is that there are good and bad people out there and (surprise surprise) they aren't all exactly the same.

  • polymorph #82 5 years ago

    @ kangarootoo


    + 1

  • agparrot #83 5 years ago

    If Sony win this little argument, will the headline be 'Sony Spanks Bishop'?

  • zuljin #84 5 years ago

    @kangarootoo
    I disagree. Religion is a motive, and hence, to me anyway, a cause of a lot of violence in the world today. When someone "makes up" malicious data to support their religion whilst full well knowing they are in the wrong, then to me, religion is the cause of that.

    If that leads to innocent deaths, then I do see religion as responsible.

    I see your point tho, and I agree to an extent with "if it wasn't religeon it would be something else." Not completely tho. :)

  • AcidSnake #85 5 years ago

    @kanga:
    I'm not anti-religion or anything either, but sometimes I do get riled up about it...
    See, here in my country (Italy) it's unbelievable how much power the church has on the state...Leaving a lot of normal, sane laws behind because the church opposes...

    Just last year the abortion law was under attack out of the blue and could've set us back some 50 years...
    After seeing a massive uproar every time a progressive law needs to be passed I just get sick to my stomach...To see entire demonstrations so that homosexual people will not get the same rights as heterosexuals is just wrong...
    An example ofcourse...

    Then about a month ago our national television service (RAI) acquired the rights to air a documentary that aired about a year ago on the BBC about sex crimes in the vatican...
    You should've seen the uproar...I had to see politicians going on TV to forbid the broadcast of that documentary...
    Free speech?...Not here...

    So I get kind of pissy at religions for that...
    And even though wars might have been started under the guise of religion and have had an alternative goal (although I'm sure some were actually for religious purposes) the media blackout and lawblockers over here can only have religious motives...Surely an abortion law couldn't interfere with the church's economy right?

    Again, I'm not anti-religion...Believe what you want to believe...Just don't keep a country in the dark ages because of it...

  • RexRunti #86 5 years ago

    OK staying away from the relgious debate (this is a gaming forum) I think the churches morale outrage at Resistance is completely unfounded. However the legallity of using "public" buildings without permission is where this case falls. Is there a distinction between public and private buildings? Is a church a public building? Does Sony need permission to use an exact duplication of a private/public building? What constitutes an exact replication? Did Sony get permission anyway? If they got permission what did they get permission for?

    All this religous arguing isn't the main crutch of this case. How would you feel if a Capcom put your house or place of work (including the interior) in Resident Evil without asking your permission? OK most of us on here would be pretty chuffed but we would still also want a bit of money for it... But what if it was something you found morally objectional? Like Peado Rape Sim 2 or Spiderman 3?

  • AcidSnake #87 5 years ago

    @Rex:
    Fair enough (about shifting the topic)

    Point is that my house isn't a public domain...I think the church does belong to the public domain...
    The real sticky issue is ofcourse school buildings...Anyone planning a shooter game in there will be nailed to the nearest tree...

    But I wouldn't think Sony are ignorant enough to not get the waver for the church...
    I think they did it through the city council or something...
    Sony: "Hey, we're planning a shooter game, with aliens, set in the past in your town. Can we make it very similar to the real life Manchester?"
    City: "Sure, go nuts"

    EDIT: Zpellhing
    Edited by 1 at 11/06/07 @ 16:32

  • MENTAL1ST Verified Senior Software Engineer, Picsel UK Ltd. #88 5 years ago

    Honestly, a bishop complains about (what is to him) objectionable behaviour in a digital copy of his organisation's property, and all of a sudden you lot are blaming him for sexually abusing children, atrocities in the medieval Crusades and persecution and suicide bombings in the Middle East!

    And folk complain about all gamers being tarred with the same brush!

  • Caimbeul #89 5 years ago

    Typical media bollocks - Have a long hard think about haow many games feature shootouts at churches real or fictional. How many WWII games feature it? baldurs gate (ok no guns in that one but swords and magic and death).Half-Life 2: Lost coast thats a church at the top of the cliff, lots of people (human if im not mistaken) getting killed in a church.

  • Jas315 #90 5 years ago

    "forgive, and ye shall be forgiven."

    C'mon church, get with the program.

  • YourMessageHere #91 5 years ago

    @kangarootoo:

    Religion is not just an excuse for conflict. Religions, as well as being abstract ideas, are both moral frameworks/maxims for action and huge multinational organisations. Also, unlike race or history, religion is something you can choose to follow or not. Also unlike those, it is controlled by people, Archbishops, Popes, Imams, Lamas, whoever. Without religion as preached by these people and these organisations, Israel/palestine problems, Balkan problems and so on would be much smaller.

    As a moral framework/maxim for action, a central part of all world religions (except Buddhism) is the idea of saying that group X are holy and group Y are damned. History and race do not do this. Yes, bloodthirsty people use them as excuses just as they use religion, but only religion (as organisation) is guilty of encouraging them or adapting itself to their beliefs or ideals.

    So yes, religion as an idea never started a single war or killed a single person; you could just as easily say National Socialism or Stalinist Communism, or indeed guns or swords, never did either. Doesn't really mean they weren't involved, though.

    For the record: to me, religion is a fine and even wonderful thing, as long as you don't expect everyone to believe as you do or think you are entitled to impose your ideas on others. Which directly controvenes the diktats of many religions, sadly.



    Back on topic: The problem for me is that essentially the church is behaving like Jack Thompson, shooting its mouth off without knowing whereof it speaks, making a legal issue a moral one and trying to gain the moral high ground through obfuscation and misinformation. I don't think anyone has any excuse for this.

  • captainrentboy #92 5 years ago

    Anyone seen the top youtube vid on Uk:Resistance, as usual they're taking the piss out of Sony, but the video itself is obviously from some proper local news channel. There are glorious quotes throughout, the type of genius quotes you can only get when violent computer game outrage hits the headlines.
    ''We're not only fighting wars overseas, we're fighting wars here, fighting the war for the minds of our children''....

  • PastyMuncher #93 5 years ago

    I'd love to have seen the reaction if it was set in a Mosque instead of a Cathedral. :)

  • MaxiSleep #94 5 years ago

    These are the type of brave souls who campaigned against the evil of Monty Pythons "The Life of Brian". Perhaps if they had succeeded then we would not have been sucked into the moral cesspool that is modern times and maidens could dance safely at crossroads, without the need for CCTV and elaborate security measures.

    I am certain that this brave stand against depravity will ensure that all readers of the Daily Mail who use guns to defend their crack houses will think again.



  • reprev #95 5 years ago

    @Mentalist(air)

    +1

  • Carrybagma #96 5 years ago

    PlaySatan

  • Carrybagma #97 5 years ago

    In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was Riidgeraacer.

  • holydrone #98 5 years ago

    flagging system + easily riled minority = publicity for both

    Couldn't be bothered to check if this has already been raised. Too drunk.

  • Quine #99 5 years ago

    /warms up lawsuit vs. Google Maps for hosting images of Quine's pad without seeking 'the appropriate permissions'

  • MBar #100 5 years ago

    I find it ironic that so many people are associating the Church with paedophilia when it obvious to me that Sony has been so much more successful in fucking kids over in recent days.

  • Monkey-Wizard-Ken #101 5 years ago

    I think most people were genuinely shocked by the quality of the actual game.
    I'd played motorstorm and was looking forward to Resistance, what a shocking disappointment.
    As for blood baths in churches, I'm sure the good lord has bigger things to worry about.

  • Akira_Tenshi #102 5 years ago

    Church needs to get a damn grip and stop being so pathetic. Its just a game.