MS "killed" PC/Xbox cross-platform play

Because PC gamers were too good.

Microsoft scrapped plans to allow PC and Xbox 360 gamers to play shooters like Unreal Tournament 3 and Gears of War online together because during tests "console players got destroyed every time".

That's according to Rahul Sood, founder of luxury computer designer Voodoo PC and CTO of gaming at Hewlett-Packard. "Rumour has it that there was a project many many months ago at Microsoft that was under wraps," Sood wrote on his blog.

"The goal was to bridge Xbox gamers with PC gamers so they could play against one another in games like Unreal, or Gears of War. This was all part of their Live strategy, and had Microsoft just stuck to their guns and made it work PC gaming might be in a much better position than it is today.

"There was a project that got killed at Microsoft. This project was designed to allow console gamers and PC gamers to interact and battle over a connected environment.

"Personally I wish it would have stayed the course. I've heard from reliable sources that during the development they brought together the best console gamers to play mediocre PC gamers at the same game... and guess what happened? They pitted console gamers with their 'console' controller, against PC gamers with their keyboard and mouse.

"The console players got destroyed every time. So much so that it would be embarrassing to the Xbox team in general had Microsoft launched this initiative. Is this why the project was killed? Who knows, but I'd love to hear from anyone involved - what happened?"

Sood reckons had Microsoft kept the project alive, it might have resulted in the Xbox integrating into the PC.

Following the release of the Xbox 360 in 2005, cross-platform play became one of the hottest topics in gaming.

It hasn't taken off, however. FASA Studios' futuristic FPS Shadowrun does it, but it's slim pickings.

In 2007 Epic Games' Mark Rein confirmed Unreal Tournament 3 wouldn't feature cross-platform play, but said it could turn up "at some point in the future".

Comments (75) Latest comment 2 years ago

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  • lucky_jim #1 2 years ago

    Oooh this should be fun.

    I used to be a PC + console gamer a long time ago, nowadays I'm I console gamer only. There's no doubt in my mind that keyboard + mouse is a much better way of controlling an FPS. I'm less sure about third-person games generally though, I think I'd rather have a pad for things like Arkham Asylum.
  • Fab4 #2 2 years ago

    How many of them were running aim-bots? :p
  • Caimbeul #3 2 years ago

    Boom!

    /sorry

    Your right lucky_jim, this should be interesting. I agree on the pad for games like arkham asylum. I am a console and PC gamer but played arkham on my pc using my 360 pad.
  • GamerG #4 2 years ago

    No shit, that's why I prefer 360 gaming as everyone has the same controller
  • UncleLou #5 2 years ago

    No shit, that's why I prefer 360 gaming as everyone has the same controller

    Like in racing games. Or fighting games.

    Oh.

    edit:
    Obivously it's not a good idea to allow m/kb vs pad competitive crossgaming, but why don't they allow kb/m on consoles, and then let kb/m users on both systems only play against each other, and do the same with pads? Not sure if it's technically possible to make sure the PC guy really uses a pad, mind.
    Edited by 3 at 22/07/10 @ 08:48
  • Spunkweazle #6 2 years ago

    This is why there must NEVER be a keyboard/mouse for the 360
  • Lotos8ter #7 2 years ago

    Its a pity it never took off in my opinion. I used to love Shadowrun and the chance to play with mates who only gamed on PC was fantastic. I'm not particularly competitive but I don't remember much of a disparity.
  • coolbritannia #8 2 years ago

    Rumour has it? This could be entirely false. I wouldn't mind getting killed by the PC crowd, it's the constant superiority aimed at the peasant console crowd that would put me off mixing with them.
  • UncleLou #9 2 years ago

    This is why there must NEVER be a keyboard/mouse for the 360

    Lack of choice: always shit.Surely it's technically possible at least on consoles to only let players using the same input method play against each other.

    And to repeat my point from above, people use wheels in racing games and arcade sticks in fighting games on consoles, the "everybody uses the same controllers" argument isn't true anyhow for many multiplayer-heavy genres.
  • asharkman #10 2 years ago

    Shock horror people with keyboard and mouse on fps's are much better than players with joypads.
    No shit Sherlock, why do you think they had to rebalance the enemies on halo when they released it for PC.

    Can't understand why they didn't do it for cross platform on racing games, maybe it's more go to to do with the cheating and hacking that goes on with PC gamers.
    Or maybe they didn't want to damage the Live brand by having to install all the crap that prevents people from hacking and cheating. imagine sitting there looking at the live logo for 20minutes while they check your pc to make sure you haven't modified some reg file somewhere.
    I frigg'n love xbox on-line experience compared to the PC. So much less hassle on xbox.
  • asharkman #11 2 years ago

    "Lack of choice: always shit.Surely it's technically possible at least on consoles to only let players using the same input method play against each other. "
    You'd be splitting the community then dude.
    Bad co keyboard players would be playing against the keyboard dudes.
    Imagine the score boards too. They'd have to ID keyboard players vs non keyboard players.
    Edited by 1 at 22/07/10 @ 08:57
  • des #12 2 years ago

    Yeah,lol,only idiot would believe that...somebody is dreaming
  • UncleLou #13 2 years ago

    You'd be splitting the community then dude.

    And as it is, a part of the community that would prefer to play with m/kb is forced to use pads for the sake of artificial unity. That's how bloody revolutions start. ;)
  • menage #14 2 years ago

    @asharkman

    Well, they would be doing that themselves anyway, if controllers got destroyed every time people were gonna bail out.
  • Matt_B #15 2 years ago

    I wonder if anyone got "Mine is the superior platform" X360 achievement on Shadowrun?
  • McShifty #16 2 years ago

    So this guy Sood informs us that PC gamers are superior when confronted online against their console rivals, then says that if Microsoft had stuck to their plan then PC gaming would be in a better place?

    So is he essentially saying that the slow decline of PC gaming is due in part to PC gamers just being too good at their own games?
  • Dolly #17 2 years ago

    Microsoft has repeatedly told me that Kinect is going to be the best way to play games from now on anyway, so it's a pointless argument.


    *cough*
  • miiiguel #18 2 years ago

    Interesting news today, a casual games developer talking about a "study" which says FPS are out, and a PC gamer blogger ranting about "reliable sources" on how good PC games/gamers are.
    I notice something fishy here, though.

    Nevermind, it's just the internet being internet.
  • The-Bodybuilder #19 2 years ago

    I'd like to see the results of a K&M vs wiimote & nunchuck,

    Would be quite interesting.
  • superstu1337 #20 2 years ago

  • hiddenranbir #21 2 years ago

    I think it is silly if they did drop the initiative. There is more to gaming than simply FPS.

    Kb&m vs kinect?
    Edited by 1 at 22/07/10 @ 09:07
  • nickthegun #22 2 years ago

  • Raznilof #23 2 years ago

    What seems to be forgotten often in these kind of "comparisons" is that although games are essentially the same on console and PC: mouse+kb gaming has a head start of about ten years. You look at someone who has never played a game with mouse and the someone who's never used a controller and you end up looking at ceilings and skies for the first ten minutes in both cases.

    With a mouse, you point and click, with a controller you aim and pull the trigger. It's preference and "used too" really but the argument is equally invalid as one about numbers-lag on Kinect, or that a cross platform ps3 game looks worse than a 360 game just because it runs at one frame less. My point being, comparisons only make sense in the comparison.

    I am having fun using the controller and there's several things that in my view make it superior. Speed, surely isn't one of them, but there's things like rumble feedback, analogous movement and correcting for drift when firing weapons by placing the right stick just a little below the deadzone.

    I have no doubt someone with a mouse will probably win but that is not the same as "a controller is useless because I picked one up the other day and no way is it even close to a mouse". A controller requires A LOT more effort to master (and it will never be as fast as a mouse) but it can be done.

    One thing though, change the default sensitivity settings, they are usually way to low on games.

    On topic,: Thanks MS, the even playing field makes games very enjoyable, in this case, choice could possibly destroy the fun and appeal.

  • Alf-Life #24 2 years ago

    Hehe. It's so obvious a mouse is better than a stick.
    But great flame-bait for those who don't have a PC (I'm a PC and Console gamer, so no bias here).
  • s3y3 #25 2 years ago

    Boom head shoot! That's not exactly rocket science. FPS mouse and keyboard will own pad everytime. I used to be a PC gamer and I'm now a console gamer. No way you can compete with a pad.
  • sanctusmortis #26 2 years ago

    Judging by Shadowrun, the only game that actually did use it, it's more down to the amount of cheats. I've watched corpses run away, people switch loadout mid-game including race....
  • sarcasmoidosis #27 2 years ago

    180 degrees spin using a mouse on a game that's capped at 60 FPS and really can't do more through a P2P connection over Live would slaughter most games.

    That's probably one of the reasons, K/M support isn't in yet. Next Gen maybe?
  • Mkwone #28 2 years ago

    I like how the PC gamers are now thinking they're gods gift to gaming because they performed better.

    All it proves is that the hardware is more accurate, and eaiser to use.
  • KinanEldari #29 2 years ago

    This is exactly what my friend and I have been saying for years. Console FPS gamers cannot compare to PC gamers.

    *edit* oh you whiney little halo gamers who can't take the truth. Seriously. -3 at the moment? Sad.
    Edited by 1 at 22/07/10 @ 09:42
  • AphoticCosmos #30 2 years ago

    Even as someone who has recently switched from PC + console gaming to just console gaming, I recognise that a keyboard + mouse is far superior to a pad. It just frustates me when the fiddliness of a pad compromises the enjoyability of a game. You shouldn't have to master the gamepad to master a game.

    There has to be a good compromise somewhere between a pad and a K+M setup, I just don't think anybody's bothered investigating it yet.
    Edited by 1 at 22/07/10 @ 09:36
  • Shinetop #31 2 years ago

    Microsoft has repeatedly told me that Kinect is going to be the best way to play games from now on anyway, so it's a pointless argument.

    Uhm, no they haven't.

    *cough*
  • SleepyDeathFred #32 2 years ago

    It's strange - I prefer playing with a pad, but it's hard to deny that a keyboard/mouse allows more precision... It's just a shame as I could never find enough Left 4 Dead players on my Xbox Live friends list alone - I know far more people with PCs and Steam.
  • Dizzy #33 2 years ago

    You probably would not know who is console and who is on pc and teams would be mixed, so it wouldn't matter that much in the end. Shadowrun was pretty fun and still plenty of games running today thanks to cross platform support.

    Then again pc gamers cheat like hell in these kinds of games.
    Edited by 2 at 22/07/10 @ 09:40
  • Peew971 #34 2 years ago

    Maybe it doesn't work competitively but they should have tried doing it cooperatively, think Halo Wars with commanders as PC gamers and troups as console gamers. Something like this would have a shot...
  • SleepyDeathFred #35 2 years ago

    @Peew971

    Isn't that what the Eve Online spinoff game is going to be? Dust something?
  • Praetorianer #36 2 years ago

    Why doesn't M$ learn from the past? Reminds me of the good ol' times when hybrid PC/DC servers for Quake 3 Arena existed...man, only the toughest masochist would stand that kind of beating for a longer period of time. As far as (fast) FPS are concerned, there is just no way pad users can keep up with the mouse/keyboard-combo. The slower the FPS, the more that disadvantage may vanish. It's not a matter of getting used to something, it's just plain impossible to be as good with keyboard/mouse-combo by using pads.
  • dingo75 #37 2 years ago

    I would pay for a sub to destroy Xbox noobs in FPS!
    You hear me MS?!?
  • rojjer #38 2 years ago

    'mouse mightier than controller shocker!'

    zzzzzzzz... thought they did try it with Shadowrun, only they gimped the PC Version's controls to make it more in line with the controller. PC gamers did not like this. I had it on 360 so I was just fine with it though haha
  • miiiguel #39 2 years ago

    Now that I've read the whole rant (from a guy who established VooDoo PC brand, designed specificaly for gamers - his words), it takes some odd conclusions, like, had MS "help" the PC gaming scene with stuff like this, and maybe Apple wouldn't be this strong.
    Wtf? Apple?! Apple... competive gaming? Maybe you should concentrate on not using lines like "boom headshot"; "noobs" and "dsetroying" and you might start to have a chance with Apple.
  • chrisjm #40 2 years ago

    might be more accurate/less skill required but using a keyboard and mouse on a sofa is not fun.
  • Shinetop #41 2 years ago

    Mouse for accuracy, sure. A mouse is -made- for targetting, and an analog stick will always be inferior for that very reason.

    But why does everyone keep claiming the keyboard is so much better and more accurate? It's nonsense. With the keyboard you can move in at most eight directions at two speeds: walk and run. With an analog stick, you get 360 degree movement and fine analog control of movement speed. An analog stick is by far preferrable to those clumsy WASD keys.
  • roz123 #42 2 years ago

    its fine on a leather sofa
  • FooAtari #43 2 years ago

    @McShifty
    So this guy Sood informs us that PC gamers are superior when confronted online against their console rivals, then says that if Microsoft had stuck to their plan then PC gaming would be in a better place?

    So is he essentially saying that the slow decline of PC gaming is due in part to PC gamers just being too good at their own games?


    Slow decline? See this news item EG put up today
    [link url=http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/reta il-and-digital-pc-sales-almost-equal
    ]http://ww w.eurogamer.net/articles/retail...[/link]

    PC isn't actually that far behind the PS3 or 360 in terms of sales when you combine retail and digital distribution.

    @Shinetop

    But why does everyone keep claiming the keyboard is so much better and more accurate? It's nonsense. With the keyboard you can move in at most eight directions at two speeds: walk and run. With an analog stick, you get 360 degree movement and fine analog control of movement speed. An analog stick is by far preferrable to those clumsy WASD keys.


    You get 360 degrees of movement with a keyboard and mouse too, it's the mouse or aiming stick that controls which way you move and look. Keys or the other stick take care of forward and back momentum and strafing. The analogue stick movement and range is limited to a rather short distance so does it really give much variable speed? Most people either walk or run, what else do you need in a game?

    And if pad is superior why do keyboard and mouse player generally beat pad players? The important part of FPS multi-player is shooting the other dude, where the mouse excels over the stick. Personally I have no problem with movement when using a keyboard or a pad. But aiming with a pad has always felt a little awkward and clumsy. If I haven't played for a while it always takes me time to get used it. But with a mouse I can pick up and play immediately.

    But whatever, just use what ever suits you best.
    Edited by 3 at 22/07/10 @ 10:12
  • jag10 #44 2 years ago

    i would easily beat PC gamers with playstation move.
  • Shinetop #45 2 years ago

    You get 360 degrees of movement with a keyboard and mouse too, it's the mouse or aiming stick that controls which way you move and look. Keys or the other stick take care of forward and back momentum and strafing. The analogue stick movement and range is limited to a rather short distance so does it really give much variable speed? Most people either walk or run, what else do you need in a game?

    The difference is that with an analog stick you get 360 degree movement that is not limited to the direction you're looking in, which is vital for retreats, checking your back or keeping your eyes on treacherous alleys you may pass. You can aim around while still moving in the same direction.


    The analogue stick movement and range is limited to a rather short distance so does it really give much variable speed?

    Yes, yes it does.

    Most people either walk or run, what else do you need in a game?

    Everything in between? It's about control. This is like saying analog input methods are unnecessary altogether and that we should be fine with just the directional pad on a controller.

    And if pad is superior why do keyboard and mouse player generally beat pad players?

    I'm not saying pad is superior. In fact I said analog sticks are always behind the mouse for targetting. Why are you reading things I haven't said?

    I'm saying the mouse is better for aiming and the analog stick is better for moving. So logically an analog stick/mouse combo would trump both controller and mouse/keyboard.
    Edited by 2 at 22/07/10 @ 10:36
  • UncleLou #46 2 years ago

    I like how the PC gamers are now thinking they're gods gift to gaming because they performed better.

    Weird, I've not seen a single comment that suggests that, except yours.
  • rhinoxious #47 2 years ago

    It all depends on how twitch you like your shooters.

    Personally, if I've got a guy cold and start shooting first, or if I've got a betyter weapon for the rnage between us, then I want to win that encounter. I want a game that rewards tactics as much as reflexes, and for that an FPS on a pad with subtle auto-aim is just fine

    If you want unreal tournament, high-speed, jump/duck, circle strafe, pin point style shooting = win. Then a mouse and keyboard are the best way to divide the good from the great.

    That's probably why shooters on consoles are erred towards the more tactical - for example Halo (massive disparity in weapons, objectives, and even vehicles).

    THen again designs can work across both, like MW1/2. Though I'd be interested to see detailed stats as to whether the control systems effect playing styles.
  • BAM! #48 2 years ago

    360 owners were too busy planning their next avatar outfit.
  • menschenfracht #49 2 years ago

    And if pad is superior why do keyboard and mouse player generally beat pad players?
    let's play Soulcalibur II or III on Ps2 emulator, shall we?
  • bad09 #50 2 years ago

    I'm on PC and TBH with all the basement dwelling FPS twitchers constantly bitching on how their Razor mouse is the bestest for their all important head shot ratios (when the rest of us really couldn't care any less) 360 owners are better off without PC gamers online anyway.
  • ParanoidZombie #51 2 years ago

    "Rumour also has it" that PC gamers always got destroyed by x360 gamers when playing SF4. "A reliable source told me" that Tecmo binned the PC version of NG2 because they realized that no PC gamer was skilled enough to beat the game on master ninja.

    "An insider source" also told me that rumours and informations are actually two completely different things.
  • roz123 #52 2 years ago

    The wii is underused in shooters at the moment. Red Steel 2 has a slight auto aim that makes shooting things probably more accurate and fast then with a mouse and keybaord. Its turning thats the problem with that system.
    Edited by 1 at 22/07/10 @ 10:48
  • bad09 #53 2 years ago

    @ Mogs

    Personally I prefer the 13 year olds as you can mute them.

    The basement dwellers though are annoying as hell and for some sad pathetic reason troll everywhere jumping on every single person who dares to ask about such a simple and normal thing as pad support in a game in 2010. These people put people off the PC platform, which hurts sales on the platform as people head off to consoles.

    They make me ashamed to be a PC gamer quite frankly.
  • kingmong #54 2 years ago

    for those whole play PES/FIFA there surely shouldn't be a difference. No reason those games can't be cross platform
  • Synthesis #55 2 years ago

    It baffles me that some people can still act like a control pad is superior to a mouse/keyboard in FPS games.

    The only games a control pad may come close are skill-mitigating autoaim/random luck related games.

    Control pad vs. mouse/keyboard in Quake 3? The control pad user wouldn't get a single kill (at equal skill level).
  • geeza2020 #56 2 years ago

    Mogs - "Time for Nintendo to bring out a new one, but I guess there's no chance of that while it's still selling ridiculously well"

    So they don't need to release a new Wii? Whats your point?
  • UncleLou #57 2 years ago

    They make me ashamed to be a PC gamer quite frankly.

    And the homophobic smack-talkers and console forum trolls that seem to outnumber "basement dwellers" 100:1 don't make you ashamed to be a console gamer? Weird differentiation. Idiots are everywhere.
  • arithdcael #58 2 years ago

    Other GREAT ideas I'd like to see in the interest of competitiveness

    Formula 1 vs Rally Cars
    American Football vs Rugby
    etc etc

    They are different tools. Story. End of.
  • theonlyix #59 2 years ago

    Shadowrun is easily one of the best games ive played, on both PC and 360 . And i´ve been around since wolfenstein and when PC only used keyboard, and no mouse. When the mouse was introduced for FPS it revolutionized the controls. However, gamepads are far better for the "feel" when playing. I would never use keyboard / mouse instead of the 360 pad these days.
    Cmon, on pc it all comes down to mastering the highest possible sensitivity in most games and that is unfortunately crap for games.
    Its far better with a common controller and the same hardware for people so that noone gains the upperhand by buying the better hardware, mouse, graphics card etc.
  • Scopeh #60 2 years ago

    @ParanoidZombie yes and the sky is falling. PC -gamers have always been the more experienced gamers..Gaming oringinated from PC's for godsake, its only natural that pc gamers own console gamers.
  • KinanEldari #61 2 years ago

    Also whats with the minuses on here if you defend mouse keyboards, are there console peopel just voting down everything?

    Seems like it. I'm getting shot down for it too.
  • Sunyavadin #62 2 years ago

    Why couldn't they just do what Shadowrun did, and add artificial mouse lag?
    You could enable it only in games with console players.
  • geeza2020 #63 2 years ago

    Mogs - "Erm the wii control system is appropiate and the pointer part of the system is very very accurate "

    "No it's not, there is noticable latency and the cursor spazzes out if you point it away from the screen."

    Well i've not noticed any latency, and why the fuck are you pointing the cursor away from the screen???
    Edited by 1 at 22/07/10 @ 12:33
  • Acrid #64 2 years ago

    "they brought together the best console gamers to play mediocre PC gamers at the same game"

    This is a lie, I was not at this so called development gathering
  • roz123 #65 2 years ago

    I play alot of online shooters on the PC and I rarely come across cheats, if i do i just change server or a mod is notified and they get booted. It only really happens in games where the online aspect is not well supported like GTA4. Also most games benefit tactics and knowing the game well more then just who can twitch head shot the best
  • darleysam #66 2 years ago

    Yes, and I take this comment as entirely credible and without the slightest hint of bias.

    "Also, they called you guys jerks"

    "THEY'RE jerks!"
  • AphoticCosmos #67 2 years ago

    @ Scopeh

    Gaming didn't originate on PCs, it originated in arcades, then moved into home consoles and finally branched out into PCs once home computers started to become popular. Now PC Gaming is contracting rather than growing, because consoles are beginning to offer the functionality of a PC at lower price points.

    I did . . . do love PC gaming. Nothing in the console world will ever compare to building your own rig, for example, and that makes me sad to give it up, but it's only a matter of time until the Consolan Empire and the United States of PC Owners are reconciled and the two platforms merge into one, IMHO. As such it's therefore only a matter of time before some genius developer comes up with a decent, cheap compromise between the accuracy of a mouse and the standardisation offered by a gamepad.
  • Mkwone #68 2 years ago

    @ UncleLou

    I would have enjoyed torturing console gamers. They're lucky MS didn't go through with this.

    Here's one
  • Jonny5Alive7 #69 2 years ago

    The PC was always going to come out on top because the keyboard & mouse combo will always be quicker and more accurate than a controller, theres not much you can do abot that. I would be more interested in seeing 360 vs PS3 cross platform game.
  • darth_paul #70 2 years ago

    @ sven_vath
    your statement is just stupid. It takes a lot of skill to play with a mouse, agianst the others that use the same setup.
    you're just farting this statements out of your arse out of fanboysm and ignorance.

    ____
    i have always been a pc player, an have always played my FPS's with a keyboard and mouse. i also have a 360/PS3/Wii and what I usually do is buy my FPS, RTS, Simulators, Management Sim's for the PC, and everything else for the consoles.

    Personally, I find that playing FPS's with a pad is less intuitive than playing them on a KB+M, but thats because i got used to that combo in the past. Everytime i try to play with a pad, i spend more time trying to aim and move. I just prefer the freedom of the mouse.
    Im sure that everyone that started playing FPS's on consoles finds it natural to play those games on pad.

    the PC players are not smarter than the console players, but these tests, conducted by Microsoft just show that the whole process of controlling a gun with a MOUSE is just more intuitive and faster.
    Edited by 3 at 22/07/10 @ 18:56
  • evilrobot #71 2 years ago

    Hardware reaction speeds is what it all boils down to not super humans and console gamers, if you think your superhuman at a game because of the platform you use.......guess what it must be the platform not the gamer.
  • Collymilad #72 2 years ago

    So a keyboard and mouse is better for FPS than a pad?

    They researched this?

    -1 for human intelligence.

    +1 to darth_paul, speaking sense.
    Edited by 1 at 22/07/10 @ 22:28
  • Kaminari #73 2 years ago

    "[...] the best console gamers vs. mediocre PC gamers"

    ROFL.

    This is the lamest excuse ever from Microsoft. I'm not a brilliant FPS gamer, neither on PC nor on console, despite being comfortable with both controlling schemes -- but I've seen many console gamers that would explode the ass of most PC gamers and hand it over to them.

    The true reason is elsewhere. Cross-platforming would have involved third-party publishers allowing XBox gamers to be pitted against PC and potentially PS players -- and that's something Microsoft has always been categorically against.
  • gnrlstuart #74 2 years ago

    if microsoft let players use a keyboard and laser mouse, i would. problem solved.
  • EroThraX #75 2 years ago

    @shinetop

    The difference is that with an analog stick you get 360 degree movement that is not limited to the direction you're looking in, which is vital for retreats, checking your back or keeping your eyes on treacherous alleys you may pass. You can aim around while still moving in the same direction.

    Learn to use a mouse and keyboard properly, you can aim whilst still moving in the same direction just as easily with a keyboard and mouse by changing which of the wasd keys you have pressed, you can even do it backwards, your character doesn't just walk backwards in a straight line it also changes relative to where you are aiming.