MS helps PS3 projects blossom - report

By Robert Purchese Published 16 September, 2009

Dev explains 360 exclusivity loophole.

A former developer for Vampire Rain has explained that making an Xbox 360 exclusive is an easy way to fund a project for PS3.

"For developers, it's way easier to develop for the 360. Microsoft provides sufficient development funds. Support is fast and all encompassing," wrote the Japanese dev on his blog (picked up by Kotaku). Signing a one-year exclusivity deal, apparently, is all that is asked.

On the other hand, the dev continued: "Sony Computer Entertainment doesn't really provide money (maybe no money). Support is a mess and unreliable. (At the time I was involved)."

Therefore, he added, companies like Namco develop first for Xbox 360 and then port cheaply to PS3 to recoup costs. Sony won't approve a exact replica, however, so "lots" of extra content must be added.

This is often why features scrapped for the Xbox 360 launch are added to PS3 games. And, he added, why these do not appear as DLC, retroactively, on Xbox 360.

Examples of this are rife: yesterday's announcement of Star Ocean: The Last Hope for PS3; Eternal Sonata for PS3; and Tales of Vesperia for PS3.

Picture of Robert.

About Robert Purchese

Bertie is Eurogamer's Senior Staff Writer. When he's not hunting down news stories he's often found playing with his kids or gabbling about fantasy games and strange online worlds.

Read more articles from Robert by visiting the Robert Purchese archive page.

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Comments (51) Latest comment 2 years ago

Comments threads automatically close after 30 days, but please feel free to continue chatting on the forum!

  • menage #1 2 years ago

    All the funding in the world didn't make VR a good game though. Sold 4 copy's as well.
    Edited by 1 at 16/09/09 @ 11:02

  • Widge #2 2 years ago

    That is not what the dev sums up. In fact, none of what you have written about is mentioned in the article. Its just the SAME OLD TWOFF that you post over and over and over and over and over.

    Just copy your comment to the clipboard and paste it in every thread. You can then dedicate those minutes of life to something else.
    Edited by 1 at 16/09/09 @ 11:04

  • insincere_dave #3 2 years ago

    If Worms is anything to go by, just as the slightly enhanced port appears on PSN the vastly super sequel appears on Xbox Live!

  • Dizzy #4 2 years ago

    "Blossom" is probably not the correct pick of words. A lot of these things are dodgy ports for some quick money probably done by another small team while the real team is working on something new.

  • Doctor_What #5 2 years ago

    Donnie: you are talking tosh again, aren't you? Please stop it.

  • KayJay #6 2 years ago

    "ive heard of devs choosing PSN exclusively for the support sony gives them. " Yeah wheres that Superstardust HD retrospective... He was praising the Support he received from Sony.

  • Kerome #7 2 years ago

    Not sure if MS will particularly care if all the better titles end up appearing six months later on the PS3. People will buy the 360 version just because it's out earlier...

  • tachometer #8 2 years ago

    By the time the PS3 version comes out for £40 the 360 version is £12.99 in the bargain bin so you pay £27 for your "extra" features (read: stuff that was far too poor for the xbox but which PS3 fanboys can crow about)

  • Spydy #9 2 years ago

    Classic case of MS throwing money at stuff without thinking about the consequences.

  • Goodfella #10 2 years ago

    @ tachometer

    I don't think anyone will be crowing. A shit game is a shit game, and anyone with any sense won't buy either version.

  • patch #11 2 years ago

    Could this really still be the case? Didn't Vampire Rain come out in Jan 2007, around 2 months after the PS3 came out? I'd have thought the support for PS3 developers might well not have been that established when he was working on Vampire Rain before the PS3 had been released.

  • mkreku #12 2 years ago

    I would have been surprised if Microsoft's dev tools and support weren't better than Sony's. I mean, they are a software company first and foremost.. and has been for several decades.

  • stevetuck #13 2 years ago

    So its the devs that are ruining the industry... i see :)

  • schnide #14 2 years ago

    If Donnie winds you up that much then just ignore him. Simples?

  • El-Dev #15 2 years ago

    So one dev can voice the opinion of all the developers. Interesting.

  • Retroid #16 2 years ago

    Sony have started doing incentives for PSN titles (to try and get them exclusive), I know that much. No idea about previously.

    Anyway, they're talking about retail titles, not DD stuff.

  • StooMonster #17 2 years ago

    svd_grasshopper: which is like a pc to develop on

    And you know that because?

    Most PC games development is for one or two cores on x86 architecture, Xbox 360 development is for six threads on PowerPC architecture (PowerPC is also Nintendo Wii and PS3's Cell too).

  • Malek86 #18 2 years ago

    I don't know, I still think MS is getting the better deal here.

    Imagine if Squenix/Namco outright said "we're shipping the game today, but in a year we'll have an upgraded version". I don't know how many people would be willing to wait that much. Not when it comes to a game that has been anticipated by fans. The success of GT5P seems to indicate that (though that might be stretching too much).

  • Moribundman #19 2 years ago

    Personally I never play Japanese genre games so this doesn't effect me at all. I'd wager the same applies for many of the people in here (most of whom just seem to be Sony fanboi flamers judging by the post ratings and Grasshopper making his customary appearance)...

  • flaming.carrot #20 2 years ago

    It still all boils down to the parallel programming transition that the whole software industry (not just PS3 game developers) is facing going forward. Clock speeds have pretty much hit a ceiling, so processors are having more cores added to increase performance instead, but new software has to be designed from the ground up to utilise these modern multi-core chips properly. It is a completely new way of programming and new techniques have to be learnt, and is very difficult to master at the moment.
    Edited by 1 at 16/09/09 @ 12:25

  • Kenshin001 #21 2 years ago

    Apparently he said, " But the Xbox version won’t sell [in Japan], you can’t recoup even those lowered costs at all."

    So basically MS moneyhats for temporary exclusivity and 360 owners get to beta test the game, Jp devs get good support for their games and can easily port to PS3 where they will make more sales, PS3 owners get the much delayed version with more features (at Sony's insistence). Anyway, I guess Tales of Vesparia's release will be the litmus test of whether this idea works or not.


  • EvilBob_leeds #22 2 years ago

    @StooMonster

    Yeah, but a fair bit of the underlying architecture on the XBox is abstracted by the Direct X API that developers are forced to use.

    http://www.eurogamer.net/arti cles/digitalfoundry-directx-360-performance-blog-entry

    I doesn't matter so much how different the architecture is between the PC and the 360 if you use the same API to control it.
    Edited by 2 at 16/09/09 @ 12:46

  • ronuds #23 2 years ago

    Have sales of a timed exclusive ever been very good when they're released for the 2nd time? By then the games are usually old news and nobody cares.
    Edited by 1 at 16/09/09 @ 12:43

  • sneetch #24 2 years ago

    I'm just disappointed that Donnie SEEMS to have stopped randomly capitalising WORDS.

    I always figured he was talking a bit like Kirk. Now I am sad. :(

  • dpb135 #25 2 years ago

    & when it does finally come out, its still a rubbish port & not as good as the original

  • makeamazing #26 2 years ago

    Doesnt really happen on that many games does it? Most games are released at the same time, and i guess as someone else said this is more Japanese based? Seems like a bit of a slow news day.

  • lavalant #27 2 years ago

    Well we all know Ninja Gaiden Sigama 2 won't be a buggy broken mess like the 360 version, 360 owners got screwed over that one.

  • mega7ech #28 2 years ago

    Man, devs are a whiney bunch!..


    /runs

  • El-Dev #29 2 years ago

    "who ya gonna call?"

    If I were you donnie most likely a mental hospital to get signed in for treatment for obsession.

  • Dizzy #30 2 years ago

    "I doesn't matter so much how different the architecture is between the PC and the 360 if you use the same API to control it. "

    An API is an API... most of them are more or less the same. You can't claim that a console is like a PC based on what API it uses. The 360 and PC share the same dev tools... hence the ease to port between them. This was done on purpose by MS... it has nothing to do with the hardware. MS has done all the work to make sure their dev environment runs on PC and 360.

  • bmxbandit #31 2 years ago

    Vampire Rain was a failure on both consoles ... why are we listening to comments from subpar developers? This isnt news.

  • Calgon #32 2 years ago

    Dizzy is correct, also the API in the 360 is a custom version of DirectX with support for the GPUs features(as has been said in the past its a thinner layer of seperation from the hardware than on the PC side i.e. lower overhead), this is also updated often by the XNA team at MS(along with improvements to the compiler on the CPU side... this handles most of the PPC to x86 stuff and vice versa from what I gather).

    As has been said before, the best way to develop for the 360 is actually not as if it were a PC, this is not optimal for the 360 either. An engine built with only the 360's strengths, code and features in mind, wouldn't be much like a PC engine at all... well atleast no more than PS3 engines anyway.
    Edited by 1 at 16/09/09 @ 16:26

  • Moz #33 2 years ago

    Sounds like win win all round really. 360 gamers get games earlier, PS3 gamers get more content for the wait.
    Devs get a nice second bulk profit for only a years more work (along side developing next project)

    The only people who seem to be out of pocket are MS who are relying on people to by a console based of getting these games earlier then PS3.

    Though it all seems alittle redundent at this stage of game as most devs will have their core engine running on both systems now any way so the cost of development is alot less now anyway, and developing for a second platform at the same time is virtually free (relatively).

  • harzo #34 2 years ago

    Whatever format you all like to bitch about, Vampire Rain is possibly THE worst game I have ever played. I'd love the Angry Videogame Nerd to get his paws on it!

  • davisorle #35 2 years ago

    I never tend to agree with this "Donnie" dude but you all turning against him about obvious shit like the fatc that you DO buy worst versions of games on the PS3 even after long waits and just giving exceptions of a Ninja Gaiden which takes about 2-3 years more to be released on the PS3 after the 360 and be gladabout it.. Is just sad. This is one of the most pathetic atempts to cover up a thread hat talks shit about Sony once again. Stick at least to the point of what the developers are making again.

    Sony is cheap with crappy tools, when MS is paying and helping too much almost each and every project for the developers.

    Minusrate that biocthes :) lool its oh-so funny when argue about their consoles even till now. have to get ready now :)byez

  • MeBrains #36 2 years ago

    davidorle: in this respect maybe Sony is cheap. the same and in my opinion worse goes the other way around. MS blatantly copied a large part of Cell's design and knowingly put defective hardware on the market. I'd still would like to see their arses sued for this.

    anyhows: the guy mentioned he doesn't know how things are now. Maybe they improved? Will dev tools / support have become like MS's now? HIGHLY unlikely. Like others said: MS is software corp - Sony is not and it still has LOTS to learn there.

  • monkeywithnoeyes #37 2 years ago

    does annoy me that the ps3 versions get so much added to them.. its fair enough if theres a year wait in between, but most of these jrpg's come out almost a year later in europe from when they first hit japan and the states.. meaning a game like ToV gets offered to 360 uk owners 9+ months after its release date in the states, leaving us having an "exclusive" game for all of 2-3months before it his the ps3 with aload of added content attached.

  • Penguinzoot #38 2 years ago

    shouldnt a developer know what he is doing already??

    Dear oh dear :DD Just had to laugh at that one :DD

  • man.the.king #39 2 years ago

    What Robert Purchese seems to have forgotten to include is that the NB developer in question "aired this insider laundry out in response to the complaints of Tales of Vesperia Xbox 360 fans regarding the supposed exclusivity of the game, and how Namco Bandai is carrying out 'underhanded' and 'unfair' tactics for putting in more on the PS3 version than on the Xbox 360", so some salt needs to be taken with this article, which sounds more like a "don't point your fingers at me" kind of defensive rant on the part of the developer.

    Also, MS paying the developer to NOT INCLUDE the game on the PS3 (i.e. secure an exclusive 360 release) seems to be acceptable and par for the course, but if that helps the PS3 game, that must be bad, according to idiots like donnie.
    Edited by 1 at 16/09/09 @ 20:41

  • Calgon #40 2 years ago

    MeBrains no MS did not copy a large part of CELLs design at all that was never what that story said, PPC was never anything to do with Sony the improvements made for the 360 CPU were apparently part funded and influenced by the CELL project, but theres nothing wrong with that(Sony had next to no input on the PPU part the SPEs maybe, MS actually came up with their own ideas for Xenon too... they knew how high the bar was being set). Sony had no chance of completing the CELL project without IBM and they've always done business like that.

  • Calgon #41 2 years ago

    man.the.king so asking for some form of exclusivity whether console exclusive or timed exclusive, by helping fund development in the first place is wrong? Is it that so different to many 2nd party exclusive arrangments?

    I dont think its bad that it helps the PS3 version(it's a good thing surely that devs make more money on good results) but your logic is flawed, Im not sure Sony have a right to demand extras from the developers for nothing though(kind of arrogant) especially with the lack of support they give developers in the first place.
    Edited by 2 at 16/09/09 @ 21:37

  • EvilBob_leeds #42 2 years ago

    An API is an API... most of them are more or less the same.

    Errr... are they? On a very superficial level maybe, and even then...

    You can't claim that a console is like a PC based on what API it uses

    It's not like a PC - I didn't say that. I can claim that you deal with the graphics hardware in more or less exactly the same way on the XBox as you would on the PC. I can also claim that all 360 development goes down this route since a) developers cannot circumvent it and b) why wouldn't you use it? And dealing with the graphics hardware is a significant part of the development process.

    I'm not criticising MS. They've given developers a good set of tools, and are reaping the benefits. But the bottom line is that developers cannot directly address the graphics hardware. They do it through the astraction of the Direct X layer. A direct X layer thats more stripped down and easier to use than its Win32 / 64 counterpart, and that many developers will be used to dealing with. And while development for the 360 will be different from development for the PC, the difference between the two is therefore going to be a fair bit less than that between the PS3 and the PC because of that.
    Edited by 2 at 16/09/09 @ 22:11

  • man.the.king #43 2 years ago

    @Calgon

    "Im not sure Sony have a right to demand extras from the developers for nothing though"

    Did they though? All we have for this is one developer's blogged rant, apparently in his/their defense against (a few) vocal 360 fanboys, angry at a 360 exclusive no longer being so.

    "especially with the lack of support they give developers in the first place. "

    The same support some other developers seem to praise?

    And, as for "asking for" (if you want to euphemistically term paying for or bribing as a request) exclusivity, yes, I think it is wrong, regardless of whoever does it. If Sony were to do the same, I would not view that as right (I think I have expressed that opinion earlier - I think for Ghostbusters or something - don't remember). However, while I think it's ethically and morally wrong, I recognize that as good business practice, and my comment regarding the exclusivity thing simply referred to donnie (you can go through my earlier post to confirm this if you wish), who seems to look askance at anything to do with the PS3.
    Edited by 2 at 17/09/09 @ 08:19

  • 3william56 #44 2 years ago

    Any decent games affected by this? Any?
    Hmmm... having to wait for shovelware which will be sh*t because of the porting economics. Can't say I'm crying yet.

  • MeBrains #45 2 years ago

    calgon: "MeBrains no MS did not copy a large part of CELLs design at all that was never what that story said, PPC was never anything to do with Sony the improvements made for the 360 CPU were apparently part funded and influenced by the CELL project, but theres nothing wrong with that(Sony had next to no input on the PPU part the SPEs maybe, MS actually came up with their own ideas for Xenon too... they knew how high the bar was being set). Sony had no chance of completing the CELL project without IBM and they've always done business like that."

    okay... my using of the word "large" maybe goes too far. Fact is that there is credible evidence that MS rushed into IBM's offices, put loads of cash on the table for some of the technology STI had been developing for Cell and for having IBM finish the 360 processor first. I do well know that Cell's engineering is more to be attributed to IBM, than it is to Sony. Sony might be a great hardware engineering company, it certainly is not a CPU company. The way I think Cell development was spread is: Sony's offered the cash, IBM engineered the CPU, Toshiba built the factory.

  • Calgon #46 2 years ago

    MeBrains I dont know from what I hear IBM had to argue with Toshiba and Sony on how the SPEs were made and some other decisions. Which they won because frankly if Toshiba had their way they'd have even less functionality for the sake of raw speed to make their spec list look nicer on paper(IBM I beleive put alot of VMX influence in there) meaning even greater reliance on the PPU for optimal performance.

    I think they had some of the team from the CELL project help get the 360 CPU finnished in time, but I dont see a problem with that if both projects got finnished on time. The delays were for blu-ray and I beleive they had problems with the cooling early on too(which I bet they are glad they spent some time on, especially when the lead free solder switch came into effect). Your notion that any of this was "copying" is just not credible, thats not what the IBM engineers said at all.

    Just have a think how silly it sounds if I had said, Sony rushed into IBMs offices and put loads of cash on the table for IBM to complete a project for them or paid for any other technology which wasnt their own to be included. It was probably IBM that pitched to MS's Xbox team just what they had to offer, I hope you realise this is how the chip makers win contracts.

    The Xbox team collaborated with IBMs engineers and ATIs to come up with what they thought they wanted for the 360... thats all there is to it. I think they did good job on the whole, there's plenty of good ideas gone into the 360 system design from all 3.
    Edited by 2 at 17/09/09 @ 17:41

  • Calgon #47 2 years ago

    And, as for "asking for" (if you want to euphemistically term paying for or bribing as a request) exclusivity, yes, I think it is wrong, regardless of whoever does it.

    No you don't seem to get it, if they are part funding development they probably do have a right to ask for something in return(this is not dissimilar to funding development for a second party game... only difference being they usually publish the games themselves too but not always)... this is not bribing or corruption. Seriously if you beleive Sony doesn't do this you are totally clueless.

    Doesn't Batman have exclusive DLC for PS3 btw?


    The same support some other developers seem to praise?

    There have been far more complaints than there has been praise though(it may have gotten better recently but from what I hear the smaller developer will still struggle)... if it were MS there'd probably be suggestions that the praise was due to moneyhats or free dev kits/tools.
    Edited by 4 at 17/09/09 @ 17:31

  • man.the.king #48 2 years ago

    @Calgon

    "Seriously if you beleive Sony doesn't do this you are totally clueless"

    I am getting the impression that you have a one-track mind - mainly that Sony or people preferring the PS3 can do no right. Why else would you IGNORE the part of the post where I stated "regardless of who does it" and where I said that I had posted something about NOT CONDONING such practices, mentioning the Ghostbusters thing. And if that is the case, then it is you that is clueless, in every respect.

    "There have been far more complaints than there has been praise though"

    Are you taking in each report from EVERY SINGLE Developer? It is my impression that other than developers directly being "funded" by any platform, nobody speaks out much in favor of or against support provided, tech or otherwise. Granted, the PS3's architecture was tough to begin with, and the lack of support (such as the extensive APIs that MS provided) did not help. But, in my opinion, after that first dismal year, Sony has been trying hard to turn things around.
    Edited by 1 at 18/09/09 @ 02:11

  • Calgon #49 2 years ago

    man.the.king why would YOU ignore the part about FUNDING part of the development, how is that wrong? If the game or DLC is already made or even planned for two platforms and someone pays for it not to be released on another platform then you may have a point.

    Are you taking in each report from EVERY SINGLE Developer? It is my impression that other than developers directly being "funded" by any platform, nobody speaks out much in favor of or against support provided, tech or otherwise.

    Oh dear now that is a bit much, very defensive aren't we? Well there are more examples of complaints about poor support from Sony and the costs being too high ect, yes most of them are from around the first 1year or 2, how much has changed since then is anyones guess(been quiet probably a good sign... maybe because the complaints were heard no?).
    Edited by 1 at 18/09/09 @ 02:54

  • man.the.king #50 2 years ago

    @Calgon

    "If the game or DLC is already made or even planned for two platforms and someone pays for it not to be released on another platform then you may have a point. "

    So are you saying that you know, for sure, that the game was initially NOT planned at all for the PS3 platform by Namco Bandai? That could mean that the idea/suggestion that a TOV game should be developed came from MS. I find that very hard to believe. Or are you saying that NB had started development for the 360 ONLY, and then MS jumped in with their request that they not develop for the PS3? I am having a hard time finding any logic there: If NB had planned it for the 360 only, then WHY would MS need to ask to make it exclusive? I am getting the impression that you will believe anything as long as it shows MS in a good light (and, to the best of my knowledge, ALL your prior posts show that), so it would be useless arguing with you that the game might have been initially planned for the "other" platform as well.

    "Oh dear now that is a bit much, very defensive aren't we?"

    Possibly. But then I don't have the kind of bone to pick with MS that you seem to have with Sony.

    "how much has changed since then is anyones guess(been quiet probably a good sign... maybe because the complaints were heard no?)"

    Maybe, but you seem to ignore every instance where a developer has praised Sony tech support. It seems as if, according to you, that NEVER happened.

  • Calgon #51 2 years ago

    First of all I wasn't even talking about any game in particular, I was talking in purely general terms. Also your ludicrous strawman about anyone suggesting MS gives concepts to third parties to develop is bizarre(where did that come from?).

    The concepts come from the developers, who may already have a platform in mind or plan on just focusing on one platform, then shop the concept around the platform holders to find out which one(this is probably what happened with Heavy Rain, the devs were never anything to do with Sony, they were PC devs if anything). As for DLC, for something like Episodic content, I beleive MS have put the idea to the devs rather than the other way around because they are the ones pushing the online space most(for GTAIV I dont think they were planning on doing full episodic content at all, it's not something Rockstar have done before... I think they planned on just the usual extras you get from DLC: extra guns, game modes, cars ect but MS convinced them to do it by funding the development) but there's no way of knowing for sure more often than not.

    This should all be easy for you to understand but you are hell bent on trying to prove Sony are angels and MS are "teh evil moneyhatters" this is my only problem... its a shitty attitude, an in accurate assumption, thats full of double standards to boot.

    So let me get this straight you beleive MS paid to keep VR exclusive? It was never said to be exclusive, the most you get when there's no official exclusivity deal is, we have no plans to develop this game on other platforms at this time. Where are you going with that arguement? Are you throwing out as many strawmen as you can, in the hopes you actually look like you had a point to begin with?

    I am having a hard time finding any logic there

    I'm having a hard time understanding what the heck you are talking about frankly.


    Maybe, but you seem to ignore every instance where a developer has praised Sony tech support. It seems as if, according to you, that NEVER happened.

    There hasn't been that much praise from devs with impartiality. In rare cases like Dirt(IIRC), you must remember they had Sony engineers work with them, the engine was based on Sony's Phyre engine to begin with too, so they are bound to give nothing but praise.

    I even suggested there maybe has been an improvement(you even quoted it yet quickly forget that in your next paragraph), maybe it's you thats in denial that there WAS actually a big problem in the beginning with Sony's tools and support for the developers.

    For the record, I wasn't defending Donnie who I beleive does troll PS3 articles alot, just parts of your posts were coming accross as bitter snipes at MS themselves... all while defending Sony.
    Edited by 4 at 18/09/09 @ 19:36

  • man.the.king #52 2 years ago

    @Calgon

    "you are hell bent on trying to prove Sony are angels and MS are "teh evil moneyhatters" this is my only problem... its a shitty attitude, an in accurate assumption, thats full of double standards to boot."

    Only someone like you, who is hellbent on proving MS are angels and Sony are bumbling bureaucratic bastards, could view my posts as that.

    "I'm having a hard time understanding what the heck you are talking about frankly."

    Maybe, in your eagerness to evangelise MS and shoot Sony, you forgot to read what I posted above that.

    "maybe it's you thats in denial that there WAS actually a big problem in the beginning with Sony's tools and support for the developers. "

    Or maybe it's you, with your selective memory, who forgot I posted this as well: "Granted, the PS3's architecture was tough to begin with, and the lack of support (such as the extensive APIs that MS provided) did not help. But, in my opinion, after that first dismal year, Sony has been trying hard to turn things around."

    "just parts of your posts were coming accross as bitter snipes at MS themselves... all while defending Sony"

    And several parts of your posts were coming across as snipes at Sony, all the while singing praises of MS, justified or not.

    "...Donnie who I beleive does troll PS3 articles alot"

    On that part, we are on the same page.
    Edited by 4 at 22/09/09 @ 02:07