Molyneux on emotional games

By GamesIndustry International Published 16 October, 2006

Says they'll push things forward.

Enthusiastic developer Peter Molyneux has revealed how he thinks the games industry needs to innovate in order to grow - by creating games that make a player feel loved.

The Lionhead boss was addressing an audience of games industry peers in London last week, as part of EA lecture, 'The Industry Speaks: The Future of Entertainment'.

Speaking of the development of upcoming Xbox 360 title Fable 2, and its new features, Molyneux said: "The big feature is the emotions that I want to you to feel. And for me, that is where the revolution comes."

"We have felt the emotion of killing and maiming and the emotions of power. But we need more complex and interesting emotions. That is where real innovation is going to come from."

He said that online play has the potential to bring players together, and open gaming up to a much wider audience, provided it was possible to make players feel loved.

"The innovation that you, me and friends are playing a game together and we're experiencing male-bonding as we all cry over the same thing. That is my ultimate plan. One of the emotions I hope, if I do my job right, is the emotion of being loved. Not of you loving something, but something loving you," he said.

Arguing that true online gaming hasn't been established because current MMOGs aren't reaching a mainstream audience, Molyneux said: "There has not been an online game yet. Yes, there's World of Warcraft, and it's fantastic. I sat in my underpants until four in the morning playing that game for about six months and I realised I was one of the millions of people doing that. But that's not really innovation. That only works for geeks like me. My passion is to introduce everyone to what online games are."

As well as emotional goals, the designer also stated that games need to offer deep experiences that go beyond pleasing an established gaming audience.

"We need more compulsive concepts," he said. "We need less games about zombies and aliens, less games about huge guns, and that will help us reach out to more people. We need unbelievably deep games."

"If we build something and it looks real then it's got to behave real. No longer can we have adventure games where one book in a bookcase is readable."

"Even our physics engines that are around now, when you look at them in games, they're amazing. But they're only amazing to us. That's not good enough for other consumers. They need real physics, not game physics. The games industry has a huge way to go to reach this kind of resolution."

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Comments (99) Latest comment 6 years ago

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  • tenma #1 6 years ago

    "Fable 2" and "innovative"?

    hmmm

  • Cyhwuhx #2 6 years ago

    .::: One cannot help but wonder if he has played games like ICO and Shadow of the Colossus at all. The emotions used in those games seem pretty key to what he wants to achieve. Even his 'unconditional love' thing has pretty much been done with Yorda. Maybe I'm getting this the wrong way, but it sounds like he wants to reinvent the wheel.

  • penhalion #3 6 years ago

    This is Molyneux here so he is absolutely trying to re-invent the wheel. He doesn't listen or take much notice of what others are doing. He merely thinks that whenever he opens his mouth something profound must emerge.

    Rally starting to dislike this guy. The words arrogant Pr**k come to mind.

  • PearOfAnguish #4 6 years ago

    It's a wonder he has a spare moment to create any games, what with the amount of time he spends talking about the future.

    Peter, nobody cares. Stop blabbering on and just make Syndicate 3.

  • pauleyc #5 6 years ago

    "We need unbelievably deep games."

    Now that's deep.

  • hjarg666 #6 6 years ago

    Plus, quite a lot of WoW players are not geeks like him. In my work, secretary (24, female, blonde) plays it for example.

    Instead of babbling, the lad should try to create at least one good game. All his Lionhead ones are severly lacking in my opinion.

  • rinoaMW #7 6 years ago

    does she sit around in her pants playing it tho? ;)

  • Mashum #8 6 years ago

    There's a physics demo from novodex that makes the physics in HL2 and Max Payne look a bit timid - it used to be available from novodex's site however they have since taken it down, the filename was 'NovodexRocket_V1_1.exe' and I can't find a link to post - it's out there though and worth having a look at if you are interested. It will be nice to see that level of physics in game.

    ..and can I add Silent Hill 1 to the list of emotional games that PM seems to have let pass him by, the 'bad' ending of that left me emotionally scarred.

  • WhyMeeeeee #9 6 years ago

    ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ

    has Peter finished yet?

  • regmund #10 6 years ago

    all must bow in the presence of Sir Peter and take heed of the magical words that he spouteth .ForHe speaketh of pants etc.
    Edited by regmund at 16/10/06 @ 13:48

  • Steroyd #11 6 years ago

    Hell yeah ICO was a game that nearly had me crying my eyes out at the end, and Shadow of the Colossus's made me jump out of my Chair with the huge Revelation (biggest turn around in a game.... maybe second to MGS's flip flopping).

    I'll add God of War to that list of emotional games... the end just made me feel sorry for the poor brute.

  • Stormflood #12 6 years ago

    They need to develop some kind of chip that has an engine dedicated just to emotion. They could call it the 'Feelings Chip' or something.

  • T4RG4 #13 6 years ago

    Peter - You're 99% full of bollox and you're a shit designer.

  • tenma #14 6 years ago

    "We need unbelievably deep games."

    Now that's deep.

    haha

    The entire article just kind of bugs me. For all his talk about adding more emotion into the game, he talks very little about how he plans to actually catalyze these emotions within the gamer itself. Like another poster said, games like Ico are probably the best example of how a game can be emotionally gripping. Even I, who didn't care for Ico gameplay-wise, loved its atmosphere and emotional quality. With Fable I don't feel the same.

  • Thox #15 6 years ago

    What Peter is forgetting is that people actually like games with zombies and aliens and games with huge guns.

  • the_dudefather #16 6 years ago

    "I sat in my underpants until four in the morning playing that game for about six months and I realised I was one of the millions of people doing that"

    OI PETER! shouldnt you be at work? (making a dungeon keeper and syndicate sequel)

  • T4RG4 #17 6 years ago

    Thats Peter through and through though... he talks bollox and has absolutely no idea how to achieve something (other than sounding foolish).

    I could accept his rubbish if he was 99yrs old but come on, he's only 98.

  • Inigo #18 6 years ago

    @T4RG4

    How is he a shit designer? He created some of the best games of all times. Games like: Populous, Syndicate, Theme Park/Hopital, Magic Carpet, Dungeon Keeper, Black and White, Fable

  • JediMasterMalik #19 6 years ago

    All of his latest gmes have been dissappointing, his previous work was excellent, but since Fable, it's gone down hill, even Black and White 2, though pretty good, was very dissappointing.

  • pauleyc #20 6 years ago

    For me it just doesn't feel like Molyneux's in touch with gaming at all. A lot of games were able to generate emotions in the past: Ultima 7/7.2; Monkey Island; the Fallouts; FFVII (never played it myself but every post on the internet proclaiming the author's feelings about Aeris truly speaks volumes, and not only about adolescence); Ico - just to name a selected few. Unless he's talking about arcade and reflex games. But that would be too simple, eh?

    Peter, sometimes the door is already open.

    And what's that about a feeling of being loved? Strange, I never got that from a book, film or play. Must be inferior media then.
    Edited by pauleyc at 16/10/06 @ 15:11

  • T4RG4 #21 6 years ago

    @Inigo

    He was 'involved' in those games. I seriously doubt (I wasnt there during those games creation) that he was key to the design/implementation of design. If you'd seen some bloke on TV made out to be the best racing driver in the world, then when he took you for a spin in his Micra he couldnt pull out of the driveway you'd change your mind too.

    The true champions of design stand in Peters shadow. I dont blame them, they've done well out of it ;) Peter is the PR bod.

  • kangarootoo #22 6 years ago

    @T4RG4

    Very well put.

  • Sko #23 6 years ago

    The canyon between what he says and what he does grows wider every day.

  • kangarootoo #24 6 years ago

    It strikes me then guys like PM get asked these questions all the time, and sometimes is no satisfactory answer. So you kind of have to say something high brow and unprovable like "But we need more complex and interesting emotions. That is where real innovation is going to come from."

    I'm not saying its not a nice sentiment, but its wolly enough that it doesn't really mean anything. If you asked him to sit down and spec out how he was going to achieve this goal I'm not sure you would find anything that new.

    Fable and B&W as examples. Both nice games, Fable in particular IMO, but original? Perhaps a bit in some areas.

    I've probably said 20 times before but well implemented is far more important to me than original. Of course original is nice, but I've seen some truly original ideas turn into gameplay nightmares. And I've seen some completely unoriginal games that were a joy to play.

    I'm not with all this PM hate, I just see this sort of thing as part of his job. If we ask people to do talks on this sort of thing we have to expect a certain amount of chaff because thats what gets headlines. I can't remember the last time I saw someone do a keynote on control systems or keeping the player updated with what they are supposed to do next (in an RPG for example), but these are crucial aspects of many games. They just don't sound as "new frontier" so they don't get press.


    As for real world physics over game physics, I'll risk looking like a fool by directly contradicting someone far more experienced than me, but I really honestly don't think the mainstream audience care that much either way. I think they just to be entertained.

    EDIT: too many typos, you get my drift.
    Edited by kangarootoo at 16/10/06 @ 14:33

  • Mick #25 6 years ago

    "Stop blabbering on and just make Syndicate 3. "

    Best post today

  • spongebob #26 6 years ago

    I like the way Molyneux is thinking.

  • freedumb #27 6 years ago

    @T4RG4

    'He was 'involved' in those games. I seriously doubt (I wasnt there during those games creation) that he was key to the design/implementation of design. If you'd seen some bloke on TV made out to be the best racing driver in the world, then when he took you for a spin in his Micra he couldnt pull out of the driveway you'd change your mind too.

    The true champions of design stand in Peters shadow. I dont blame them, they've done well out of it ;) Peter is the PR bod.'

    --Stop trying to downplay his earlier achievements. He is not just a game designer, but an actual programmer as well, it's more than being just "involved", he has actually done the dirty work of building games from the ground up.

    You make it sound as if he's nothing more than a PR representative. You only have to look at Wiki for the roles he's played: Designer/Programmer, Producer, Project Leader/Lead Programmer, Executive Producer, Concept/Design Leader Programmer, Executive Designer etc.

    Now say what you want about his rhetoric, and admittedly sometimes he talks nonsense and has acknowledged being overambitious (which has hampered some of his newer stuff), but he is still one of the most exciting and interesting game designers around at the moment. The games industry needs people like him, his back catalogue speaks for itself in that he is trying to push the boat out rather than create your usual chart filling rubbish.

  • Thox #28 6 years ago

    Freedumb,

    While I don't want to take anything away from his previous achievements, which he has many, populous syndicate, etc. He is no longer a good designer or programmer and has complety lost touch with the gaming community. Probably due to counting all that money he got from Micro$oft.
    Edited by Thox at 16/10/06 @ 14:43

  • Empedocles #29 6 years ago

    Our father who art in Guildford,
    Fable is his game,

    etc............................................................................
    Edited by Empedocles at 16/10/06 @ 14:45

  • T4RG4 #30 6 years ago

    @freedumb

    Please.Dont.Quote.Wiki.as.Source.of.Truth. There, I said it. If ever I start my own company, I'll credit myself as Supreme Ruler of Earth. Titles on a game means nothing.

    Secondly - Yes, maybe I appear overly annoyed with old Molly but hey, I am tired of the stuff I've heard him come out with. I'm not afraid to say he's a thoroughly nice bloke outside of game design/work though. What very few people realise is that there are some absolute stars who have made/designed Peters 'hit' games, and these people you do not know the names of. Great at headline features and talking Molwaffle but hmm...

    Peter doesnt answer to anyone in design, that is probably the biggest problem. Some people need a ceiling to hit their heads against once in a while.







    Edited by T4RG4 at 16/10/06 @ 14:59

  • style #31 6 years ago

    I can't believe the obvious Streets quip wasn't utilised already.....

  • Cyhwuhx #32 6 years ago

    .::: Actually, here's another weird thing: he was already toying with emotion in Black & White. Slapping your Creature could be a perverse pleasure or something you didn't want to do because you felt sorry for it. It also displays one of Molyneux's/Lionhead's bigger problems: being unable to create synergy between features. The emotion was there, but nothing was done with it, and it was completely unrelated to the rest of the game. How you felt about your Creature was unimportant to the game and you had to almost go out and create your own experience around it.

    In Fable this became even more apparent. It's a collection of well thought out features. But they all stand alone. Each one seems oblivious of the other and in the end you only get satisfaction from the action not the result. A lot of cause's and no effect.
    It becomes even preposterous during the final chapter of Fable, when enemies suddenly turn friends and the entire good/evil balance is shifted by just one final decision. Like deciding at Heaven's gates whether you'll take a one way ticket to Hell or not.

    Now what bugs me is that Molyneux doesn't seem to 'get' this. The way he has been talking about Fable 2 is just another list of features. The 'unconditional love' thing was mentioned in relation to being able to have kids. Such as having a son waiting for you when you return home and trying to emotionally connect to the player through that. The thing is, if Fable is any indication, this will play out as "arriving home, cutscene of kid running at you, saying something, you make good/evil decision towards kid, cutscene ends, game continues". That's another isolated feature and if used purely like that will result in another trivial bit that won't change the experience in the long run.

    I really, really hope Molyneux & Co. will realise the features of Fable 2 have to work on more levels than just the superficial one, as the way he explained the child currently makes it sound more like your house-gyroid out of Animal Crossing and potentially as uninvolving as receiving a title in Fable (which of all things you could buy, making it... isolated). Even better, when there is synergy between all the elements people will start feeling involved and emotional about is as by magic. (ICO for example has almost no noteworthy game-elements yet the experience is there and many tend to remember it as being extremely powerful).

    I'm hoping second time's a charm in this case. I may not like his promises and some of his decisions but Molyneux does have the drive and passion for games that is sorely lacking in other places.

    [edit] Fixed some typo's.
    Edited by Cyhwuhx at 16/10/06 @ 15:51

  • Iora #33 6 years ago

    I understand the 'general' direction that dear olde Peter wants to take us. I just don't believe 'he' is the one to take us there.
    He has been credited with many classics, games that truly broke the mold. He attempted the same with Black n White a game that was heralded as an icon of ground breaking Molyneux genius. I personally found the game lacking in all the areas that count.

    As many here cry out, just make Syndicate 3. I'd have to agree. He probably feels pressured into trying to out do his past successes which I feel he never will. Proclaiming to the world that games need to be better to survive, that real emotions need to be used is not news.
    Gamers already know this and more importantly so do developers. I can't help but feel the developers of the previously mentioned Ico standing up in a darkened room waving their hands excitedly while coughing *cough, over here *cough, we did it.

    There will always be the likes of Unreal Tournament games that i most definetly do not want to feel such emotions as love. I use those games to fuel an adrenaline fueled hyperacivity. I use other games to fill my various needs.

    Games will evolve I just do not believe that Mr Molyneux will be the man that ignites that revolution.

    He should take note that he will be remembered for his games not his unsubstantiated rhetoric. Make games Peter, games that we 'loved and adored' we the consumer after all are the ones that ultimately choose how the industry evolves. Attempting to force feed us 'originality' will ultimately fail if the game doesn't entertain.

  • Sam81 #34 6 years ago

    HAHAHA T4RG4 you always crack me up you world renowned super AAA class designer. The way you speak with such authority has made all the difference in regards to this news item. Well done.

  • Iora #35 6 years ago

    Well said cyhwuhx!

  • kangarootoo #36 6 years ago

    @Sam81

    Please don't dig out that old "you aren't qualified to speak" angle. Its is utterley meaningless and there is NOTHING more pointless in informed debate. If someone writes a constructive point, it can stand on its own feet and they don't need to wear a special hat just to be allowed to write it.

    T4RG4 expressed his points constructively. At no point did he suggest you "trust me I'm a Dr", so dismissing him because he isn't "a Dr" is pointless. By the same measure you aren't qualified to dismiss anyone's opinion. So how about you express an opinion and back it up with some structured thought instead of just trolling?

  • kangarootoo #37 6 years ago

    @Sam81

    Christ dude, I've just realised you appear to work at Lionhead. Do you realise how much of a sock puppet your comment makes you look?

    If you'd actually had something constructive to say you might have been OK, but now you just look like some hero worshipper.

  • Tyronne #38 6 years ago

    Noooo not again....after listening to this kind of thing for black and white and fable and ending up with games that were jack of all trades and masters of none...I play games to be able to relieve stress from modern day life and If I want to play games in which I blow up zombies in the most horrible fashion possible then I want to play them...I am not remotely interested in having a emotional response with characters in a game as if anything it will just increase the production time for features I could not give a pair of dingos kidneys over....

  • Sam81 #39 6 years ago

    @kangarootoo

    Explain to me how bollox, rubish and involved translate into constructive and I'll agree with you. If I was worried about looking like a sock puppet I'd hide my email but that's the whole point: someone is claiming to know something about something while it's plainly obviously that certain someone is just annoyed.

  • MrChuckles #40 6 years ago

    He he, T4RG4 used to work at LH, and i believe lost his job in the wave of redundancies this year, and Sam81 still works at LH as a PR rep.

    Not really surprising the extreme views. I'd say the reality is somewhere between the two.

  • haowan #41 6 years ago

    @Sam81: But at the same time any input you have is automatically biased. Plus you should be pretty careful posting so openly like this, people have lost their jobs for this kind of thing you know.
    Edited by haowan at 16/10/06 @ 16:13

  • Iora #42 6 years ago

    I do believe he is trying to reinvent the wheel. I realise that Aeris's death is fast becoming a videogaming cliche'.
    There is a reason however that her name is mentioned within almost every videogame forum there ever was. Because during play you invest time and effort with your group of adventurers. You watch them grow as their story unfolds, you can also choose during the Gold Saucer segment who to flirt with on 'the date'.

    Personally I chose Aeris. I was completely captivated by her responses from the admittedly limited options I had. So when she was ultimately murdered in front of my eyes, i couldn't help but sit back in my seat in total shock.
    Personally I had a lot of emotions running through me at that moment. Which did include the classic psycholigical effects after a 'real' person dies.
    'Denial' 'Loss' 'Anger' 'Lonliness'

    Ten years ago this game was released. Admittedly there hasn't been much else to compare it with until recently. But the fact that that milestone has already been achieved kinda spits on Peter's grand gesturing.

  • mingster #43 6 years ago

    Sam81 your viewpoint is skewed i'm afraid as you are a PR rep for Lionhead.

    unfortunately the general concensus is lionhead studios have done nothing of consequence gameways.

    all of the innovation happened while Peter was with Bullfrog.

    i have 'nuff respect for magic carpet, populous, dungeon keeper and syndicate ...

    everything else was downhill from there,

  • Dr.Mott #44 6 years ago

    "They need to develop some kind of chip that has an engine dedicated just to emotion. They could call it the 'Feelings Chip' or something. "

    How 'bout the "Emotion Engine"? ;)

  • ruckus #45 6 years ago

    Well 'Cyhwuhx on Molyneux on emotional games' was more interesting than the original article.

  • T4RG4 #46 6 years ago

    When Peter talks his talk, links to his latest classics are sent round the office. Anyone who knows me will know I had the same views whilst actually employed by Peter & Lionhead :-) It's a public forum, people can say what they want. I've my own strong opinion on what is right and wrong in game development, this can differ from others opinions on a dramatic scale. I've absolutely nothing against Lionhead or Peter on a personal level, let me make that clear now. Best bunch of people I ever worked with, great fun everyday. I hope saying that doesnt make make me a sock puppet :)

    My views on this and other forums are simply what I think, words not wrapped in cotton wool.




    Edited by T4RG4 at 16/10/06 @ 16:39

  • kangarootoo #47 6 years ago

    @Sam81

    "someone is claiming to know something about something while it's plainly obviously that certain someone is just annoyed."

    being annoyed has nothing to do with it. A constructive comment is one that explains why a given belief is held. If the facts don't stand up then someone else can challenge the belief, again contructively.

    Telling T4RG4 he is not qualified to speak achieves nothing. If anything it undermines you own cause, as instead of taking a potential opportunity to point out to him the flaws in what he has written, you have simply lost the faith of anyone on here who might have originally put some stock on what you had to say.

    If working at Lionhead gives you knowledge that we lack when it comes to defending PM, you have utterley wasted that opportunity by resorting to "shut up, thats why" tactics.

    As others have said, you are potentially biased. Now that doesn't mean you can't comment objectively, but as you have chosen not to do so, you have simply reaffirmed the belief of others on here that you are not able to do so.

    And as haowan said, you should be careful. You represent your employer by identifying yourself openly and so your should guard your actions. I don't want you to get in trouble, even if I don't agree with what you have to say.

  • Mashum #48 6 years ago

    @kanga 'As for real world physics over game physics, I'll risk looking like a fool by directly contradicting someone far more experienced than me, but I really honestly don't think the mainstream audience care that much either way. I think they just to be entertained. '

    ...that reads like an arguement against trying anything new, as a far less experienced person than either PM or yourself I would say a bit of creative thinking and some decent physics emulation perhaps could make for some fun gameplay.

    Portal?

    EDIT: ..or it could just be that I'm obsessed with getting virtual Jenga on live arcade.
    Edited by Mashum at 16/10/06 @ 16:54

  • SharkVLion #49 6 years ago

    Molyneux is an arse; Why does the industry consider him worth listening to..

    Emotion in games.. Didnt the chap from The FrameStore say exactly that prior to Molyneux leaping on his bandwaggon.. and basically hijacking the idea..

  • haowan #50 6 years ago

    Has anyone ever told you how annoying it is reading posts with double full-stops in them instead of single ones?

  • kangarootoo #51 6 years ago

    @Mashum

    "that reads like an arguement against trying anything new, as an far less experienced person than either PM or yourself I would say a bit of creative thinking and some decent physics emulation perhaps could make for some fun gameplay. "

    I think its a bit of a lateral jump to suggest that by disagreeing with his priorities I am suggesting that nothing new should be explored. In the pursuit of entertaining the mainstream, am I not able to pursue the development of new ideas?

    My specific point was that I don't believe the mainstream care about real physics as opposed to what PM dismissed as "game physics". Game physics is just a bunch of numbers, sometimes more closely representing the way things appear in the real world and sometimes not. Why should one simulation be more entertaining than another, just because it more closely represents the real world?

    Made up physics can be more original in its application than real physics, your portal example being a good case in point (portal is nothing like the real world is it?).

    I guess my beef was with PM falling back on the old "we need better physics" angle, when in fact most of the original and new ideas we have seen recently (portal being one of them) have driving them a great idea rather than some pursuit of true world realism.

    To try and recover some kind of a summary from my ramblings, I'll say this. I've not yet seen "realistic physics" in a game that was fun UNLESS it was backed up by entertaining gameplay. If PM was pressed on what he meant and how he thought it would make games more engaging, I think he would be pressed for an answer.

  • Hugundo #52 6 years ago

    i want to EAT HIS HEAD!!

  • gaijin #53 6 years ago

    Well blow me!! Kangarootoo,, I''m ashamed to admit that I''d never looked at your profile before,, but thougt I ought to,, to check you weren''t some kind of vested interest in all this.. And it turns out you are really a kangaroo!! I''d always assumed it was just some kinda forum name.. Just goes to show..

    Haowan - better or worse with everything doubled?

  • haowan #54 6 years ago

    NNoott ttoooo bbaadd,, bbuutt wwhhyy nnoott ggoo tthhee wwhhoollee hhoogg??

  • Crea #55 6 years ago

    It's pretty self-evident to me that if LH had any problems it was the gulf they created between player expectations and reality. I've played all the games they've produced, and I think they're all extremely good. Perhaps not as groundbreaking as I'd hoped in many ways, but excellent nonetheless.

    I don't see Molyneux as arrogant or self-aggrandising in any way. Any time I've seen him speak (and I've actually met him in person) I've been struck by his genuine enthusiasm. If he's guilty of anything its that he lets his natural gamer heart get the better of his business head - he reveals alpha features that later get canned etc. I find this appealing, but always with the proviso that the way he makes his games sound early in their development will not likely be how they end up. If you can remember that, you'll do fine.

    I though Fable a remarkable game in many ways. I do believe they bit off slightly more than they could chew, and had to shoe-horn some more traditional gameplay into what should have been a revolutionary free-form RPG. And it could really have done with being a bit longer.

    In my opinion, if Fable had come out without fanfare and unattached to Molyneux, it would have got an easier time critically. It was a slick, polished action RPG that had great breadth (if little depth) and offered some really great atmosphere. I do agree with the earlier poster who said it perhaps did not amount to much more than a sum of its parts - it did lack something. I still loved it more than practically any other Xbox game, however.

    Bottom line, I'm going to have to weigh into this stramash on the side of Molyneux. We'll see some great stuff coming out of LH in the future, I'm certain.

  • haowan #56 6 years ago

    Personally I'd like to be on Molly's side but I feel that his crazy mad ideas that end up getting canned actually harm the projects - that's time the devs could have spent making the game more polished and refining the decent features. If B&W had been clearer in its design at the outset we wouldn't have had the hastily cobbled-together and uninspired five levels that the game shipped with in the end, we'd have had a well-designed and engaging game.

  • gaijin #57 6 years ago

    Haowan - considered it, but I thought by the time I'd written Kangarootoo a couple of times I might have dangerously depleted the world's stock of 'o's.

    re the general debate about emotional gaming, isn't part of the problem that different users will find different traits engaging, in the same way as we don't all respond to the same traits similarly in the real world? Is the point that it makes us want to love it back? This is what I infer from the tone (admittedly possibly incorrectly). If so it would require near infinite customization to user response - and also enough variation in its own responses that it didn't become clear that it was just going through the motions. I'm sure we all know *that* feeling... I guess maybe if one started with a game hamster, and worked up..?

  • kangarootoo #58 6 years ago

    @gaijin

    Yeah, its a bit old that photo now though. Taken before my days in the circus that cut out my soul and replaced it with a rotten and cynical potato. Ah... great days they were, out in the bush.

    /hums boooorn freeeeee in memory of what was.

  • Crea #59 6 years ago

    @haowan

    That could be a fair point, but I'd defer to someone with more inside knowledge of B&W's development process to comment. Perhaps such damaging feature experimentation did occur.

    Your point does demonstrate one thing though - the mass of Molyneux detractors are not a homogenous body. Your point is that he should have been LESS experimental and devoted more time to 'regular' tried and trusted gameplay. Others criticise games like Fable for being too traditional and not delivering on the revolutionary gameplay that was widely expected.

    I don't think these two positions are necessarily mutually exclusive (nor are they by any means without merit), but it does illustrate to me that Molyneux is perhaps damned if he does, damned if he doesn't...

  • kangarootoo #60 6 years ago

    @haowan

    Extremely well put. I totally agree that design isn't just about having great ideas, its about managing them into a well implemented end product.

    If houses are all about location, design is about implementation (said as many times as makes you feel comfortable or as suits your TV programme title).

  • Mashum #61 6 years ago

    Kanga.. fair enough, lateral jumps a speciality ;) I agree with your point about keeping it fun.

    I have had a bit of a hankering after, if not real then more complex and interesting physics after downloading a couple of demos on the PC a while ago - they weren't games but they were still fun to play with.

    It seems like there's an untapped butt load of great ideas to be exploited there, things that mirror real life and so are understandable on an instinctive level. A bit like the opportunities exploited in the early days of 3d gaming.

  • paulf #62 6 years ago

    I'd rather listen to someone go on aboout needing more emotion in games than someone evangelising about hi-def graphics

  • haowan #63 6 years ago

    @Crea:

    Yes, that's true: my speculation is just that, although it is based on industry experience. As I say I'm not against the guy and think he fights for good. Emotion in videogames is a big topic and he's right to be thinking about it in such a positive way (beats Jaffe/CliffyB any day). I just (just a personal IMO) think he needs someone above him to keep his ideas in check so that he doesn't work people into a frenzy about features that never get implemented.

  • Xerx3s #64 6 years ago

    I don't get it what most ppl are on about. This guy was making new and innovative games while most of us where shitting your dipers. With the exception of B&W (thx to the horrible language choices of EA), I have absolutely luved his games and hope that he will continue to make them for a long time.
    Sure he isn't god and he can be arrogant but if you have that many best sellers written on your name, wouldn't you? And besides, he is also asked alot to talk about things like this in the shitload of keynotes/lectures that he gives (the recent one about interaction was nothing new but interesting none the less).

    And the ppl praying for Syndicate (wars) 2 should stop doing so. The only way that that is going to happen is when it will be mass production spam by EA. And we know how well EA worked out for other bullfrog games att.

  • albundy #65 6 years ago

    Allow me to sum up this thread as succinctly as I can.

    If Peter Molyneux was a Nintendo employee, you'd all be patting him on the back, and espousing the innovative and forward-thinking stance that Nintendo are 'famed' for.

    Say what you like about the guys final output/quality, but at least his intentions are in the right place.

    Does that not count for anything?



  • Carrybagma #66 6 years ago

    Hee hee hee!
    Boo hoo hoo!

    Halo3 4 teh l0\/3


    @albundy: Nintendo???! What have they got to do with anything? Can anything remotely connected with Microsoft not be criticised without being interpreted as a Nintendo fanboy attack? How can you be sure it wasn't a crazed Sony fanboy attack?

    ?:o(

  • albundy #67 6 years ago

    Probably a bit of both, to be honest.

  • albundy #68 6 years ago

    But Sony fans annoy me a lot less. There not as smug or self-righteous.

  • The-Bodybuilder #69 6 years ago

    I felt all what he said with shenmue (I & II).

  • The-Bodybuilder #70 6 years ago

    >" In my work, secretary (24, female, blonde) plays it for example."

    Saying your 24, a secretary and "blonde" does not prove you're not a geek.

  • The-Bodybuilder #71 6 years ago

    >"What Peter is forgetting is that people actually like games with zombies and aliens and games with huge guns."

    Dawn of the dead?
    Independance day?
    Terminator 2?

  • Carrybagma #72 6 years ago

    @albundy: Are you absolutely sure that it's nothing to do with PM's fondness for talking a lot of wind? It's a bit of an EG comments section tradition to state that PM, his work, and everything he stands for is rubbish, so don't take it as a pop at Microsoft.

    In response to your flaming, legions of Ninty & Sony fanboys will have dived in and soiled this thread by this time tomorrow.

    Hurrah!

    :o)
    Edited by Carrybagma at 16/10/06 @ 20:11

  • Calgon #73 6 years ago

    haowan: Industry experience?... *just out of interest not being funny about it*
    Edited by Calgon at 16/10/06 @ 20:15

  • albundy #74 6 years ago

    That's my point though. I agree that he can, at times, be all talk and no action. But from where I'm sitting, Nintendo reps talk a similar load of shite, a lot of the time. But does anyone say anything? No. That's because, for all their lack of street cred in the casual gaming scene, Nintendo fanboys rule the hardcore gamer roost. So a double standard is applied to them, whenever their reps start spouting utter tosh.

    The biggest example has got to be the Wiimote. The whole mantra behind it was that it would make games easier, more intuitive and more instant for the never-gamed-before to just pick up and be up and running within 5 minutes. But time has shown this claim to be unrealistic, at best. Complete and utter horseshit, at worst. Wii games still seem to be requiring that initial lead time for learning the controls, like a regular control pad. So, what's the point of the thing then?

    And more to the point (in order to get back on-topic), why do people not slag off the shit that spews forth from Nintendo's mouth the way they're getting on PM's and Sony's backs so readily? Riddle me that.

  • Calgon #75 6 years ago

    Carrybagma: Surely a couple of comments were already there from Sony fanboys, singling out his only Xbox exclusive as utter garbage(which was pretty successfull I might add) just by coincidence?

    Fable didnt grab me as well as Id hoped either(still a good game though) it had a funny feeling to it like someone has already said, lots of great ideas, a lovingly crafted world, much to do... but it didnt seem to gel, Im probably going to regret this analogy(not a big footy fan.. cept Pro Evo and the big games) but: Thinking of all the great features in there as a team of world class football players(all great in their own right) but seeing them play as individuals on the pitch rather than a well drilled team and noticing that something is clearly missing(which is dissapointing in its own right).
    Edited by Calgon at 16/10/06 @ 20:30

  • haowan #76 6 years ago

    Fable was good, Fable 2 will be good.

    @Calgon: 5 years as a gameplay programmer.

    @albundy: It's got nothing to do with Nintendo, it's more to do with broken promises. The reason people flame him I mean. You're right though, his heart is in the right place which at least for me means he's hard to dislike.

  • Carrybagma #77 6 years ago

    Well, all company reps talk a lot of shite. I'd say that Microsoft and Sony reps are far worse than the Nintendo, but perhaps they're just different - Microsoft and Sony reps seem to go for the 'hard sell' whereas Nintendo types seem to preach to the already converted.

    1/ And the Lord saideth to the Nintendopes 'Doubt not ye the wisdom of region locking, for it is a good thing'.
    2/ And the Nintendopes agreed heartily, saying 'We worship you oh Lord and we praise you. For you are the bringer of innovation and can do no wrong'

    Shit - problem posting. Half a post?

  • Carrybagma #78 6 years ago


    Second half?

    But, so what? Nintendo fanboys certainly don't rule any roost because there are more PS2 and probably XBOX owners than there are GC owners. They just get under your skin - that's all.

    As for the Wiimote. Well, we'll see. It's different enough for me to have gone for a Wii over a 360, in the hope that there's something to it. PJ's take convinced me it was worth a go, even if it turns out to be a mistake. Perhaps I'll end up PXing it when the 360 'shrink' comes out sometime next year or the year after that, having enjoyed a lousy three or four quality games. Perhaps not. It doesn't really matter. There'll be no point pretending it's not crap if it is.

    Anddd... back to your point - I refer back to my point. It's all about PM himself and this odd EG comments tradition, not the 360 or Microsoft. That, and this place is infested with Nintendo fanboys!

  • albundy #79 6 years ago

    Fair enough. Point made, and made well. Don't get me wrong, I am very much in the "Fable = underwhelming" camp. But I just don't get how EGers can bitch and scream for "teh inn0v@tion" and moan about how Xbox 360 and PS3 are just the same games, but with "pritty grafix". And then as soon as somebody like PM or Peter Jackson are willing to stick their head above the parapet and say "You know what. You're right. Let's strive for more in the medium" the outpouring of cynicism is something shocking. It seems that wacky ideas are only tolerated if they come from Nintendo, even given the company's numerous past failures, as well as successes. ie. Virtual Boy.

  • kangarootoo #80 6 years ago

    @albundy

    You seem to be confusing everyone elses priorities with your own. I couldn't care less who PM works for and that has nothing whatsoever to do with my comments about what he said.

    I hear what you saying about cynisism, and sometimes I am I admit. But PM courts cynism because, as has been said by others, he has a recent history of not backing up his "visions" with results.

    YES he created some great games in the past, YES he gave us some of the early classics. But, again as has been said by others here, his recent history (whilst successful to a degree) has consistently failed to match his own hype. In that sense he is his own enemy (and has in fact admitted the same in interview). Pete and the Wolf springs to mind when viewing the lack of faith on this thread.

  • haowan #81 6 years ago

    Of course, such well-rounded debate is lost of the ears of such an anti-Nintendo xealot as albundy. It will rebound off his ears and fall to the floor, ignored. And we can all sit back and wait for his next tract-like post in gentle anticipation of finding out where he'll manage to slip in his next nintendo dig.

  • Crea #82 6 years ago

    Haowan, regarding your point about Molyneux needing someone above him to keep him in check, I've often wondered along these lines. It seems to be something of a truism (or perhaps inaccurate stereotype) that whenever someone in a creative industry gains a degree of success (and therefore financial freedom), they often thereafter seem to experience a bit more difficulty.

    I've got a few ideas about this:

    - perhaps it's the gaming equivalent of the 'difficult third album'. Maybe it's difficult to get out of bed in the morning when you're a wealthy, successful developer. I personally don't get this impression from PM, but I don't know him.
    - Maybe they're doing nothing different, but simply suffer under the glare of expectations and attention. No doubt this is true for all very successful developers. If you're not continually 'raising the bar' (to coin a hated phrase), you're over the hill.

    I do think there's something to be said for a little bit of pressure to concentrate the mind. Perhaps PM's previous success relieved him of a little too much stress (although I'm sure people from LH would dispute that :) ). Perhaps the buy out by MS will place a more structured project schedule on him.

  • haowan #83 6 years ago

    We shall see! I am certainly looking forward both to Fable 2 and what he is going to get up to next.

  • T4RG4 #84 6 years ago

    Molly wanders in to the office when he wants, vanishes, doesnt appear for meetings, does as he pleases... someone tell me how you're meant to design games that way? It is a total nightmare and anyone who has worked with him will, under influence of anti sock drugs, admit the same.

    He may very well be brilliant at some things, I never really got to see any of that. I guess if I was being kind I could say he had an absolute confidence in himself which made you want to listen to what he had to say.

    What I often did see though was some of the other very good people he had around him working their arses off to try and finish his games that'd dragged on far, far too long. I personally believe that if you are to have a good shot at designing a good game, someone needs to hold the vision and design as much of the entire project as they can (by all means have other people help you, under your guidance). Peter doesnt, as far as I could see, do this. He simply wanders in now and again, organises some meetings to discuss what he fancies that evening, then leaves your stuff in tatters because he's paid no attention to what his people have been working on.

    If anything, I felt it was a shame. Fantastically creative company, great people, endless development time (felt like it!) and yet what? Games that promised so much yet failed to reach the heights they could of (let alone the heights promised by Molly). So many other dev studios out there pray for the opportunity that Lionhead have and it pained me to see a fair part of it wasted. Also, to say I felt sorry for some of the industry newbies working at Lionhead is an understatement. I dont know what the answer is... maybe Molly could have taken a couple of years off and come back to making games when he was ready to commit to it again.

    Everyone always wants a piece of him, must be bloody annoying and very distracting.

    I'll stop being a big fanny and shut my trap now.

  • haowan #85 6 years ago

    Nice. Interesting post, thanks.

  • Daikon #86 6 years ago

    Can you say "Tokimeki Memorial"?

  • Carrybagma #87 6 years ago

    I've not played any of the games he's slagged off for - just the old stuff. It was almost always a simple (and usually different) idea, well executed. Sounds like his ideas are getting too big or complex to stary coherent. Maybe he needs to try 'small' or 'modest' again, in order to find his knack. Like Scorcese wants to do now.

    Maybe he's in the wrong place or promised too much in order to do 'modest' now.

    Certainly interesting to read something from someone who really knows something of him - ta for that.

    @haowan: Nah, he's not too bad. I don't think he foams at the mouth as he types for example, or howls at the moon because it reminds him of Halo. Besides, fervant Nintendo hatred is slightly more comprehensible than, say, simpering PlaySatan worship. :oD

  • Krun #88 6 years ago

    His last few games have all fallen short.

    He spends far too long chasing rainbows and then when the money men turn up and say"so wheres this game we paid for then" they bash together what they can and it all ends up being a huge let down and always too short.

    It would be great if one day it all worked, but he is running out of good will quickly.

  • hjarg666 #89 6 years ago

    Well, "The Movies" was a nice idea and actually good game, but... well, Peter! It's nice to put in emotions. Just, bloody don't forget the interface as well next time!

  • Rambaldi #90 6 years ago

    It's become far too easy for people to dismiss his comments, just because they're his comments. OK, not everything he's ever done has been great (he is only human after all) but he's got a unique perspective and has been near the top of his game since the days of ST/Amiga and is still going. Quite a feat for a developer.

    I think he's got a valid point.

  • Reapergold #91 6 years ago

    Gota be honest, ive always been a big fan of his games and of the man. I think hes a legend who comes from a background that current developers can look to for an example to follow. Hes been responsible for some of the greatest games to ever cross our monitors, so how about before you all start calling him arrogant you think to yourself how many hours of gaming has this man given you. I know hes given me allot and ill respect him for that whether you lot will or not.

  • kangarootoo #92 6 years ago

    "It's nice to put in emotions. Just, bloody don't forget the interface as well next time!"

    Amen to that.

    @Reapergold

    No one is doubting his previous works. I think T4RG4 put it well when he suggested,

    "maybe Molly could have taken a couple of years off and come back to making games when he was ready to commit to it again."

    Maybe we are asking too much for people to be consistently creative for such a number of years. It seems of late that everytime someone talks about game industry legend, I can't actually think of anything legendary that they have done in recent years. Maybe its just not possible without taking a sabatical every so often. Perhaps PM's problem is that he himself doesn't realise that he has lost momentum (or maybe he does, but the pay is too good to stop).

  • SharkVLion #93 6 years ago

    @haowan

    haha, you make me laugh pal; really...

    Do you realise how annoying it is to brown nose in public... ;)

  • haowan #94 6 years ago

    Heh, I thought it was a pretty worthwhile contribution and it takes balls to come out with stuff like that against former employers. It was interesting to hear first hand what it's like to work with him, no?

  • karlidog #95 6 years ago

    Of course, however sparkling the writing and however deep and intricate the characterisation in an 'emotional' Molyneux game, you just know it'll be for nothing because everyone'll still talk in comedy Cornish accents.

  • kangarootoo #96 6 years ago

    "Trrvvaayyd guuuds"

    Makes me chuckle everytime (I didn't mind it actually).

  • Tonka #97 6 years ago

    The first game I played that made me feel sadness was Another World on an Atari ST. When the ending credits started rolling and (I leave this out in case someone haven't played it and intend to). It made me feel really sad.

    The game made you care about the two main characters and their lifes without being bombastic about it. I think it's important that you actually get to play as the charachter wich later is supposed to invoke feelings in you as the player. You can't just have a cute puppy that's yapping away through 2/3 of the game and then gets run over by a truck and expect that to be as emotional as when Aeris bites the dust.

  • T4RG4 #98 6 years ago

    Ah, Another World... brilliant (even if I did have the French version).

    Wing Commander III (I think) had a lot of emotion for me... gutted and angry when I discovered the furry bear thing I'd been defending throughout the game was a traitor as had been suggested countless times. I took him down.

  • Iora #99 6 years ago

    yes Arbiter 'n' Tonka.

    I believe that much of the emotional content we receive from games comes from the amount we expend ourselves. The more feelings we concentrate onto one character the more we feel involved as events happen around them. The problem with this is that in most cases the gamer is divorced from actually receiving any direct emotion from any character. You are playing the story of characters and feel emotions towards those characters and imagine the emotion of your character. It is an impossibility for those characters to begin showing emotions towards ‘you’ the gamer not your in-game persona but ‘you’. Your game avatar is the buffer that prevents that sort of emotion leaking through.
    As many have said Nintendogs seems to be the direction he’s taking here were you are being directly influenced by those cute wee dogs and in turn directly influence them. This obviously limits many game types to say the least.

    During play of Final Fantasy Tactics you create and mold a group of characters. As the story progresses your feelings are pulled in many different directions, as any good narration should. However as anyone who played and enjoyed this game will probably testify. The feelings and personalities you gave the unspeaking, uninvolved characters you created was very powerful. I remember with complete pride my Knight/Lancer. Many times he would pull back a seemingly impossible round. I followed those hollow little characters and watched them grow as I developed them.

    I personally do not see anything wrong with how it is currently. I think that to aim for some sort of corrupt version of love were you directly feel emotion from a game is quite strange.
    Would you want to feel love from a game? I know I wouldn’t! I do however want to be pulled into a world and engage with the life and story of those around me.
    Games have the capacity of doing this better than any other media, I just do not see what is wrong with the tools we currently have at hand. Great narration and characters with a level of involvement that sees you feel more a part of the game, will ultimately give you an extremely rewarding, emotional experience.

    I understand what Mr Molyneux is saying and I partly agree. I just do not believe we need some sort of radical revolution of our games in order to achieve it, and I do not believe Molyneux will be the man to give us it.
    Edited by Iora at 17/10/06 @ 14:11