Natal "not quite there yet" - J. Ross

By Robert Purchese Published 23 February, 2010

But "sky's the limit" if lag is fixed.

British comedian Jonathan Ross has, after a celebrity playtest last night, concluded that Project Natal needs more work.

"OK. Before bed. Natal on Xbox impressive. Not quite there yet I think but they have 'til october and if they get it right... sky's the limit," Tweeted 'Wossy'.

The flamboyant chat-show presenter was filmed at a london event swatting balls away in one of Natal's previously exposed mini-games.

Of note is the fraction-of-a-second difference between Wossy's actions and those replicated on screen. A video caption assures us this will be trimmed as we get closer to the device's autumn launch.

"They say that be release all lag issues will be resolved and response time should be nearly instant," the pop-up read.

MTV Multiplayer had a similar experience but approached Natal with a more scientific brain, analysing five play-tests and recording the results.

"I had a pretty large sample size, sitting through 5 demos, capturing about 40 different movements from a variety of journalists. Across those 40 movements, the fastest life-to-screen transition was .08 seconds, while the slowest was .12 seconds. A tenth of a second was the consistent average, though," concluded MTV Multiplayer.

"What that means is that, in its current state, Natal is not instant, one-to-one motion capture."

Nor was it at gamescom last year, when Digital Foundry produced extensive analysis of Project Natal lag and its implications in a variety of scenarios.

Picture of Robert.

About Robert Purchese

Bertie is Eurogamer's Senior Staff Writer. When he's not hunting down news stories he's often found playing with his kids or gabbling about fantasy games and strange online worlds. @Clert on Twitter.

Read more articles from Robert by visiting the Robert Purchese archive page.

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Comments (47) Latest comment 2 years ago

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  • Geordiemp #1 2 years ago

    You know, I would pay more for Natal if they kept the chip in AND the chip made it more timely (hardware chip dedicated can only help processing).

    It could make the difference between true imersion to feeling your not really playing.....Feel this decision will make or break Natal.....

  • Sunyavadin #2 2 years ago

    But what can it actually do MORE effectively than twitch response of your fingers?

  • berelain #3 2 years ago

    On the one hand, input lag is sad.

    On the other hand, if this the development of Natal is as good without the chip now as it was when the camera was demo'd at E3 with the chip in, there's a decent chance they might eradicate this almost completely in the six months or so leading up to release. If it does, then that makes for happy gamers. If it doesn't, well, its applications may be rather limited.

    Arc / Gem / PSPenis, meanwhile, still hasn't had a real-world demo, and its supposed to be out beforehand. Here's hoping both Sony and MS have something more solid to show at E3. And proper names for them, too.

  • metalangel #4 2 years ago

    Meanwhile, plenty of good proper games that use the proper controller are coming out too!

  • Widge #5 2 years ago

    According to Leona Lewis' Twitter, the lag isn't that bad. She was twatting balls away with ease, following up each success with a limp fistclench.

  • flaming.carrot #6 2 years ago

    @Berelain: I thought the Arc had a real-world demo the day they announced it, with that on-stage real-world demo

  • the_dudefather #7 2 years ago

    hope it doesn't need Natal motion+ in a year or two to reduce lag

  • Doctor_What #8 2 years ago

    Leona Lewis was twatting balls away with ease... Now there's an image.

    Natal could be the most incredible thing to ever happen to exercise game and home fitness training. That's fine by me because I quite like those. The thing is that after all that jumping about I want to slouch on the sofa and only move my thumbs for the next couple of hours :)

  • berelain #9 2 years ago

    @flaming.carrot

    I meant in an actual *game*- not just a tech demo. I'm not aware of any footage of anyone playing an Arc / Gem / Whatever game; just technical demos- Not that the Natal stuff has been much better, but at least there was that Burnout demo to show real-game potential.

  • LazyDan #10 2 years ago

    You what's instant without a special chip? A button.

  • metalangel #11 2 years ago

    Woss was chosen to promote Natal: as a famous whacksmith, Natal will enable him to play games without contaminating a controller with his spunk encrusted hands.

  • BillyBrush #12 2 years ago

    Hmm...

    If they do reduce the lag

    are gamers who like 'other' devices going to stop droning on about it? no, they'll claim it's laggy no matter what. So, i feel there's some damage there in terms of all the news about it, people latch onto things, it becomes their forum ammo.

    but at least it will make them realise it cannot be laggy i suppose, which hopefully...makes for a good device.

  • patch #13 2 years ago

    I wonder what would have been reported about the lag if a group of gaming journalists would have been there? As it is, we have the opinions of a group of "celebrities" and we're none the wiser as to what effect it has on real gaming. C'mon Microsoft, let the journos have a go!!!

  • FogHeart #14 2 years ago

    The DF article measure input lag at 200ms. If this has been brought down to 120ms since then it bodes well. Time will tell.

  • Sunyavadin #15 2 years ago

    And I still have no idea who Leona Lewis is....

  • GamesProgrammer Verified Games Team Programmer, Eutechnyx Ltd. #16 2 years ago

    Everyone that seems to plays on natal seems to comment on its lag, which does not bode well at all in my eyes. If they cant fix i t by october i would hope they would delay it or put the chip back in to get it right,

  • Mkwone #17 2 years ago

    I read Jason Bradbury's tweets from the event.

    Guests were given 2100ms points, 12month XBL sub, a golden ticket to a special event oh and an Elite.

    I wish i went :(

  • mcmonkeyplc #18 2 years ago

    How much is the lag from a wireless controller?

  • chubster2010 #19 2 years ago

    @berelain
    re 'Arc / Gem / PSPenis, meanwhile, still hasn't had a real-world demo'

    What, like the 'real world' NATAL demo with that lady chatting to Milo?!?

    Arc has been demoed a fair amount (and there's some videos on youtube showcasing the technology going back a number of years).

    Arc is also set to appear at GDC 2010 on 11th March ([link url=http://www.gamepro.com/article/news/214057/gdc-panel-is-sony-motion-controllers-coming-out-party/).
    ]http://www.gamepro.com/article/news/2140...[/link]

    Re NATAL - I too would have preferred to pay slightly more for to get NATAL with the in built chip, if it meant it performed better. Let's hope MS can solve the lag before launch!

    Edited by chubster2010 at 23/02/10 @ 10:21

  • FogHeart #20 2 years ago

    Come to that, what's the smallest amount of lag that the average Joe can discern?

    Edit: PSPenis? Is that how it's gonna be nicknamed by its detractors? That's even more juvenile than when the PSOne was called the Greystation.
    Edited by FogHeart at 23/02/10 @ 10:07

  • Widge #21 2 years ago

    isn't the controller lag on top of the existing game lag? So it would be something like 133 + whatever lag natal has.

  • StooMonster #22 2 years ago

    Geordiemp: "You know, I would pay more for Natal if they kept the chip in AND the chip made it more timely (hardware chip dedicated can only help processing)."

    Yeah, I get the feeling that the more costs are cut from Natal hardware, and the more code moves into the console, the greater the resulting input lag.

    I agree this is the make or break decision ... cost versus quality of implementation.

  • Widge #23 2 years ago

    Oh right, yes I see what you're on about.

  • Frandroid #24 2 years ago

    StooMonster Yeah, I get the feeling that the more costs are cut from Natal hardware, and the more code moves into the console, the greater the resulting input lag.

    There's no indication that moving the processing from the Natal hardware to the X360 has increased lag. Given that the X360 CPU is distinctly more powerful than anything that would have been included on board, it potentially allows a greater reduction in lag. The downside of course, is that it does take processing power away from the rest of the game.

    Also, there is no 'instantaneous, one to one solution.' All control methods are subject to some form of lag, some are just less noticeable than others.

  • altitude2k #25 2 years ago

    Here's a thought - Bring on the Wall!

  • onyxbox #26 2 years ago

    glorified eye toy... it's got 'meh' written all over it.

  • StooMonster #27 2 years ago

    Frandroid: The downside of course, is that it does take processing power away from the rest of the game.

    Quite, and what happens when another priority over-rides the Natal processing? When in hardware the processing is dedicated and will never be over-ridden or interrupted by other threads or processes. I guess one could make the case that polling Natal hardware could be reduced if there is a full load on CPU.

    But if this is not the case, why did they design it that way in the first place?

    We'll just have to wait and see.
    Edited by StooMonster at 23/02/10 @ 10:40

  • Beano #28 2 years ago

    The lag is a clear sign that removing the CPU from the device, has damaged Natal's chances as a serious and fast input device. But I'm sure it will still work for Eyetoy'ish party games where lag is not critical. Problem is, I got fed up by sluggish Eyetoy games 5-6 years ago and this was not what they promised the public at E3.
    This news just make me more sceptical about Natal - for MS's sake, I hope they can improve the lag a lot.
    Edited by Beano at 23/02/10 @ 10:57

  • IronGiant #29 2 years ago

    Stories like this don't change my mind at all, natal is gonna end up being shoehorned into every conceivable fitness type game, I'd much rather go to the gym and check out the babes while I work out ;) Wish they'd invested the money in new games instead.

  • Beano #30 2 years ago

    "There's no indication that moving the processing from the Natal hardware to the X360 has increased lag."

    What about common sense?

  • Beano #31 2 years ago

    "I meant in an actual *game*- not just a tech demo. I'm not aware of any footage of anyone playing an Arc / Gem / Whatever game; just technical demos- Not that the Natal stuff has been much better, but at least there was that Burnout demo to show real-game potential. "

    LBP:
    [link url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g3nMVBy5MTI
    ]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g3nMVBy5MTI
    [/link]

    RE5:
    [link url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OfR5ctyw6LU
    ]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OfR5ctyw6LU
    [/link]

    Glimpses of several mini-games - including a archery game which seems based on the E3 tech-demo:
    [link url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2B4i2LfQAb0
    ]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2B4i2LfQAb0
    [/link]

    Nothing concrete announced officially of course :)

  • mcmonkeyplc #32 2 years ago

    Oh look the SDF has arrived.

  • MasterNameless #33 2 years ago

    "LBP:
    [link url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g3nMVBy5MTI
    ]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g3nMVBy5MTI
    [/link]

    RE5:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OfR5ctyw6...

    Nice one, I hadn't seen those before. The Resi Evil one looks pretty good and that it'll it actually make the game more fun - even though it really doesn't seem any different to a light gun. The LBP one just looked dull if you were the player stuck using the wand. Just moving a pointer round the screen and picking up the odd object for the player seems a little too simple a task to make it fun... :/

  • Beano #34 2 years ago

    "Oh look the SDF has arrived."

    Yes, if we can't find valid arguments or like what people write, we can always start calling people fan-boys.

  • mcmonkeyplc #35 2 years ago

    Beano, they call themselves the SDF....

  • Beano #36 2 years ago

    Who are "they"?

    Thought your post was aimed at me?

  • Yaz #37 2 years ago

    @Beano who wrote "The lag is a clear sign that removing the CPU from the device, has damaged Natal's chances as a serious and fast input device......" ... "What about common sense?"

    ???

    It's got nothing to do with common sense, lag has been seen with Natal since it was first shown at E3 last year. It hasn't increased since then, if anything, the lag seems to have decreased.

    Hence Frandroid is correct, lag is related to the time it takes for the video to be processed, and therefore if the 360's CPU is able to process the video faster than an onboard CPU, then the lag would be reduced by the removal of the CPU, not increased!

    Of course, a dedicated onboard CPU has the potential to outperform the 360's CPU, but given the power restrictions and cost, perhaps it just wasn't practical with today's technology.

    That said, I was disappointed about the removal of the CPU, resulting in Natal requiring up to 10% of the 360's resources, but I still believe there's huge potential in Natal. :)
    Edited by Yaz at 23/02/10 @ 12:20

  • mcmonkeyplc #38 2 years ago

    No Beano it was aimed at Irongiant.

  • Beano #39 2 years ago

    @Yaz : The reason I wrote "common sense" is that the more processing the 360 had to do, the more camera data that to be transferred via USB to the 360 for calculation. If the unit was doing the processing itself, only the resulting data would be sent to the console. And since the Natal processing (15-30%) has to compete with other normal game processing tasks, some shortcuts will be make. Like someone else mentioned - what happens when a game starts to stutter performancewise? Won't input start so lag even worse? Another thing, it's only scanning at 30fps.

    You are right that the break-out demo seems to have aprox. the same amount of lag as it did at E3, but I would assume that they whould have eliminated the lag by now since it's absolutely critical. Maybe it just a old demo version?
    Anyway, let's see how good/bad it is at E3 2010 before completely dismissing it :)
    Edited by Beano at 23/02/10 @ 12:23

  • Yaz #40 2 years ago

    "@Yaz : The reason I wrote "common sense" is that the more processing the 360 had to do, the more camera data that to be transferred via USB to the 360 for calculation. If the unit was doing the processing itself, only the resulting data would be sent to the console."

    I understand where you're coming from, but it's not relevent in this case. Lag is not so much related to the amount of information being transferred, but the time it takes to process that information.

    For Arc, video is also transferred to the PS3 for processing, where the horizontal, vertical and distance of Arc is processed by the PS3's CPU, not an onboard CPU (the Arc also feeds back info from the motion sensors and buttons).

    For Arc, the time for processing the video is much less than Natal because all it has to do is locate the illuminated sphere in the video image, where the size of the sphere gives the distance. Very simple, very fast, hence resulting in a 1 to 1 response. In contrast, Natal takes that same data (plus depth info) and has to work out the positions of the people in the video, which of course is far more complicated, far more time consuming, and hence the lag.

    "And since the Natal processing (15-30%) has to compete with other normal game processing tasks"

    I haven't read the processing requirements as being quite that high (I'm sure it's 10-15% of system resources, i.e. CPU+memory), but just the same, any game designed with Natal in mind will take the processing requirements into account. Hence it's not as if devs will be taken by surprise, I'm sure we can trust them to know how to manage the requirements of an input device. ;-)

    And wrote "but I would assume that they whould have eliminated the lag by now since it's absolutely critical"

    But it's not going to be eliminated completely, even with an onboard CPU, it can only be reduced.

    Besides, the lag is going to be more where there's more to be processed. Hence for a full body scan as required in that break-out demo, lag is noticeable. But compare that demo to the burnout demo, where only the hands and feet were of interest, and the lag was negligible according to the reports I've read.

    So it will vary depending on use, although I'm interested in the relationship between the number of players and lag (it should increase, but by how much?).

    And said "Anyway, let's see how good/bad it is at E3 2010 before completely dismissing it :)"

    Agreed, let's wait and see. :)
    Edited by Yaz at 23/02/10 @ 13:07

  • berelain #41 2 years ago

    @Beano -

    I hadn't seen those videos (or even heard of them, for that matter). I stand (well, sit) corrected!

  • mossychops001 #42 2 years ago

    Post deleted at 11:49:27 04-05-2012

  • kongzi #43 2 years ago

    I don't care as long as it's cheap. Really not waiting for another E.300,- gadget to buy.

  • monkeywithnoeyes #44 2 years ago

    they'll no doubt be another version of Natal released 6months later with the chip back in, marketed as the "true experience" ala the wii motion plus.

    Regardless of lag, theres no way microsoft isnt going to get this thing out for christmas.. it's not like they're known for having something polished before release. So it makes perfect sense for them to release an addon later for it, in effect to make more money.

    I'd put money on Milo being a myth too.. it will be one of those "games" than was never intended to be released to the public, instead simply to tease you of the possibility of Natal.
    Edited by monkeywithnoeyes at 23/02/10 @ 17:19

  • monkfishjoe #45 2 years ago

    Chip in, Chip ot? Will it really make such a huge difference? If it makes it more reliant on the 'software layer', then isn't that a good thing? Love them or hate them, microsoft are one of the better software developers in the world (at this kind of thing anyway).

    I'm hoping they can trim the lag a decent amount. I would like to buy this, because it will be fun and my girlfriend may then have more interest in my gaming habit. Also, I really want to use a 'Minority Report' style interface for my Xbox.

    It won't replace the normal controller though and nor should it. People seem to be forgetting that though...

    Edit: Since when does the technical opinion of 'Wossy' become news?
    Edited by monkfishjoe at 23/02/10 @ 19:17

  • mossychops001 #46 2 years ago

    Post deleted at 11:49:27 04-05-2012

  • bing #47 2 years ago

    I don't know about anyone else but my typical reaction speed isnt one tenth of a second as I'm not Johnny 5. I see much larger hurdles in Natals way (The temptation for Devlopers to release shovelware on it) than 10 milliseconds of lag.

    Only time will tell if it will be a useless gimmick or an essential add-on.