Fable III has no experience, health bar

By Oli Welsh Published 12 February, 2010

"Experience seemed 1990s" - Molyneux.

Presenting at Fable III at X10 in San Francisco, Peter Molyneux has revealed that the RPG - if you can still call it that - has no experience points or health bar.

Health is represented by the screen-colouring effects common in action and FPS games - Fable III has no HUD most of the time - while your character grows in power according to how many followers he or she has in the game's world of Albion. Levelling up is also represented by your weapons, which grow and change appearance according to how much and how you use them.

"It's an RPG without a health bar or experience," Molyneux said in a demonstration. "Because we put the levelling up into the world, with followers, you don't need experience."

Why make the change? "The absolute main reason is that most people didn't really understand it," Molyneux told Eurogamer later. "When you asked people how to get red experience, they'd say, 'I don't know, sometimes it's green, sometimes it's red, sometimes it's blue'."

Molyneux came to feel that experience was out of date, and out of step with Fable's themes. "Why do you just get experience for combat? It seemed wrong. This game is expressions and getting married and doing things in the world that should be as significant as fighting. So as soon as we said the word followers... just saying the word followers, what people think of you, meant more to the entirety of the game.

"Experience seemed 1990s, it seemed old school."

It was the same thing with the removal of the health bar, he said. "We haven't removed the health bar, we've just copied other games. First-person shooters, the health bar's in the world. When your health gets low the corners of the screen go red, sometimes it goes black and white - that's a health bar man, it's just the same as a little bar, it's just that people see it.

"As soon as you say those things you think, Jesus, why was I so stupid beforehand," Molyneux said. "It just seems like these are legacy things."

These are the changes which Molyneux feared fans would be "pissed off" by. "If I remove experience and health bars, and I put levelling up from a 2D interface to a 3D interface, some people are going to get really upset, but that's not a reason not to do it, man. It's actually a reason to do it."

But he still thinks of Fable III as an RPG. "I still love the idea of levelling up... I love seeing myself and my hero grow and get more powerful. That to me is what role-playing is all about. I love the idea of being able to choose, that's another thing about an RPG."

For more on Fable III - including the weapon morphing system, the online features, and the Touch mechanic first revealed at Gamescom in Cologne last year - watch out for a full feature preview shortly.

Picture of Oli.

About Oli Welsh

Oli is Eurogamer's acting deputy editor and reviews editor and likes to take things one word at a time. He is among the best dressed people in South London.

Read more articles from Oli by visiting the Oli Welsh archive page.

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Comments (69) Latest comment 2 years ago

Comments threads automatically close after 30 days, but please feel free to continue chatting on the forum!

  • Jonathan_Fakenham #1 2 years ago

    Yeah, he was right I guess. I'm feeling a slight grumpyness.

  • vx-chemical #2 2 years ago

    Fable 1 and 2 were absolutely worthless as RPGs, and just slightly good action titles. This already seems like its going to be terrible in both ways. Good luck PM

  • Zomoniac #3 2 years ago

    I will strike down on him with great vengeance and FURIOUS ANGER. Damn right I'm pissed off.

    (actually, it doesn't bother me at all, I'm sure it will be a good game anyway)

  • matrim83 #4 2 years ago

    Here we go with the PM hate.

  • SniperZoz #5 2 years ago

    eee... wait.... just a sec...nope - still nothing - i've not been taken over by anger

  • DjFlex52 #6 2 years ago

    Why does Molyneux get all this hate while David Cage received no backlash when he was mouthing off for months about his "revolutionary" game?

  • Tomo #7 2 years ago

    I like the idea. Anything to make it feel more organic.

  • matrim83 #8 2 years ago

    @DjFlex52 Cause PM hate is cool and you know how retards like to belong to a group. I am sure once Cage has a few successful games under his belt and has been around the industry for a couple of decades he will be eligible too.

  • paul_haine #9 2 years ago

    Sounds good to me.

  • lavalant #10 2 years ago

    You want an epic story, and have a connection with NPCs, buy a Bioware game, if you want to be free and live in a world where you can do almost anything and collect tons of stuff, buy a recent Beth game,

    But if you want to pull off silly expressions and get a giggle for 5 minutes buy Fable.

  • the_dudefather #11 2 years ago

    screenshots: http://ww w.giantbomb.com/news/what-fable...

  • dStiltz #12 2 years ago

    Confused at all the hating.

    I think this approach is great - consider sports and fps games (Fight Night and MW2 for example)...without a health bar or XP chart, your involvement as a gamer is deepened...

    ...your player/character/soldier...even vehicle (Forza) can *show* upgrades, achievements, experience, losses etc just by the impact and affects received by, and imposed upon the protagonist and their universe.

    Mass Effect 2 uses expressions of team mates and crew to insinuate and suggest thoughts, ideas, grievances, agreement, hatred, worship...

    ...if Fable 3 is doing away with traditional health and xp bars, I welcome it wholeheartedly.

    Think about it...in the real world, when you gain a promotion (or indeed are demoted) at work, there's no scalebar floating around you flashing away...the gain/loss is show in your salary, responsibilities, respect from peers.

    When you move out of your parents house to claim your independence, you celebrate with a party, a gathering of friends, make new friends, smile and be happy.
    Again...no bars flash above your head.

    Taking a new lover, wife/husband is (generally) a happy experience, reflected by good karma, smiles, happy demeanour...

    I welcome a change to any established control system (Heavy Rain), success measuring scale (Fable 3) or other inventive change, which seeks to challenge the way we gamers become involved with our games and avatars.

    Yes, it is brave.
    Yes, it may turn a lot of people away from buying - or even playing - the game (as earlier comments here suggest).

    Ultimately, it's new features or behaviours in games that need to be introduced more, before games become the same vitriolic drab experience, churned out again and again.

    Oh, final point/question of my waffling post:

    Gamers: why not broaden the scope of your minds?
    Free yourself from habitual learnt button-mashing, trigger-pulling expectation, and really consider HOW GOOD and genre re-defining some of these new in-game mechanics could actually be for new titles.

    You never know - you might just like it ;)

  • spekkeh #13 2 years ago

    I think Peter Molyneux is a pretty cool guy, eh takes away hud and doesn't afraid of anything.

    I absolutely love Molyneux's usability innovations. Removing all the HUD clutter, having to deduce how much you've grown in experience in the game world instead of meaningless stats, the dog, the glowing trail...

    I just really don't like Fable. "How many followers you have", if I picture how that plays out in Fable, with just more uninteresting people standing in your way doing the same animation over ander over, which you then have to micromanage in a totally pointless minigame. Ugh.

  • TruSmiles #14 2 years ago

    I'm still interested in the direction it's going, but my first thought was that it felt like they were dumbing it down even more than Fable 2. The concept of weapons changing to reflect skill is more interesting than the idea of followers to me though.

  • Quint2020 #15 2 years ago

    Looks like he got it right then, I've only read the first paragraph and I already know that I won't be playing Fable III.

  • Wolverfrog #16 2 years ago

    An RPG that isn't an RPG?

    Piss off.

  • Shinetop #17 2 years ago

    Good. XP points are a remnant from pen & paper RPG's, where it was a practical necessity to manually keep score of how your character performed. There's no reason to have them in computer games where the computer can just remember that score (and much more complicated ones) for you and add to them or decrease them at precisely the right moments. Very few modern RPG's directly simualte dice rolls anymore (although there are still a few notable and hated exceptions) and destroy your suspension of disbelief with a "Giant rat rolled a 5 and gained +1 constitution!" message. XP points aren't what made pen and paper RPG's good: it's what made them possible. With computers, there's a whole different set of possibilities so lets finally stop simulating pen & paper entirely and get on with focusing on what makes RPG's fun.

  • Darren #18 2 years ago

    I thought the first Fable was overhyped and disappointing but even though the sequel was much improved it was merely good as opposed to amazing. Certainly I would not describe either games as classics. Sorry Fable fans!

    It would be nice if Fable III finally delivered on the promises of Project Ego but the news that the Health Bar and Experience have been drops makes it sound like it's going to be even less of an RPG than the previous two games and more of an action-adventure. It could be a good thing though considering that neither Fable nor Fable II excelled as RPGs IMO.

  • Dave797 #19 2 years ago

    Whilst they're trying something new the main thing for me with an RPG is the character progression wether its new kit or levelling up. So that generally equates to obtaining XP, i quite like seeing how much XP left till i level up, it sets a target or challenge for me while im playing.

  • Sunyavadin #20 2 years ago

    "Experience seemed so 90s"
    But the system from one of his best known games of the 90s didn't....

  • Quint2020 #21 2 years ago

    @dStiltz I play a lot of different genres but my favourite has always been RPGs, my issue here is how much they are getting dumbed down for Average Joe consumer, I love Mass Effect 2 but the removal (or "streamlining";) of a lot of the RPG mechanics is a BAD thing in my opinion and this is just one step further, Fable has never been the deepest or most complex RPG in the world but what was there I appreciated and enjoyed.

    Why make every genre the same? Throwing in a rechargeable health system really changed the way ME2 played, it made it far more like a shooter and far less like a tactical RPG but I when I buy an RPG I want it to play like an RPG, if I wanted to play a shooter I'd have bought a shooter.

  • siro #22 2 years ago

    I'm an xp and stats lover, but didn't think of the two Fables as RPGs that much. Could do without either health bar nor xp in Fable 3 and will still enjoy it.

  • MiY4MOTO #23 2 years ago

    Sounds like simple evolution to me. It worked in other genres so why not for Fable?

    I've never understood the Molyneux / Fable angst that seems to follow evey announcement he makes. I've enjoyed his games since my Amiga days and while his finished products may fall short of his initial ambitions he's passionate about what he does and he's prepared to take risks, push boundaries and remove some of the unecessary 'clutter' that can be a barrier for a lot of people.

    I for one would rather there were more devs like Lionhead. I remember the hate he got for banging on and on about the dog in Fable 2... How people would grow attached to it, that it would be integral to the game. I remember the moment in the game when I realised *just* how attached to it I was. It had snuck up on me, and when the moment came, all of his prophecies and proclamations about the dog rang true for me.

    I could have strangled Molyneux then and there; for trying something and succeeding beyond all my expectations.

  • muscleblade #24 2 years ago

    The worst bit about Fable 2 was without doubt the combat. It was really weak. The game itself was nice and cosy enough but lacked excitement.

  • davisorle #25 2 years ago

    Yet noone is bitching about FFIV that wont have lvls.. lmao funny funny kids now days :)

    Im just curious to see personally the intergration of Natal amongst all the new changes in the franchise ;)

  • frunk #26 2 years ago

    If PM expects folks to be pissed off at " a huge statement" like that then I think he is breathing funny gas.

    Come on... health bars are simply replaced (like in most FPS and 3rd person - Uncharted). And XP bars are not a biggie - hell FF14 is doing the equipment = level thing. If a dinosuar like FF has adopted it - its hardly a "scary new feature"!

    Good - begone silly bars and hopefully some more immersion... but I would hardly call this big news. And if anyone does get hung up on it... you need to get a life

    And as a regular pen and paper role player for over 30 years, XP is just an incidental overhead that we don't really get hung up on anymore. Most pen & paper RPGs have evolved beyong XPs a long time ago as they seemed anachronistic and false... glad to see the computer counterparts finally catching up!

    So "meh!" to the "astonishing news" and PM's amazing ability to hype up a non-event.

  • cyacomini #27 2 years ago

    ""When you asked people how to get red experience, they'd say, 'I don't know, sometimes it's green, sometimes it's red, sometimes it's blue'."

    People like this should not be allowed to buy games - "You just pressed the corresponding coloured button on your joypad you fucking idiot"

  • Weezer #28 2 years ago

    Why does he keep saying 'man'? Is he wearing an afro and disco clothes?

  • shadow1979 #29 2 years ago

    I really don't see how this fundamentally changes the game. Creating a mountain out of a molehill seems more like PR move. "Hey customers, look at me!! I'm different!!!". *yawn*

  • Lee_Morris #30 2 years ago

    He always seems to push boundaries in his game. Whether you like him or not you must admit it's good to have these type of people in the industry.

    Fable II is the one game I'd buy a 360 for.

  • photoboy #31 2 years ago

    I'm not bothered about this at all, sounds like a good way of evolving the genre. My only concern is if Fable III has all those tedious crafting side-missions that Fable 2 had. If I wanted to play an MMO with lots of tedious grinding I'd subscribe to one.

  • EgbertoTheGreat #32 2 years ago

    "Experience seemed 1990s, it seemed old school."

    So do plaid shirts & everybody's wearing them nowadays.

  • jonsaan #33 2 years ago

    There are fewer great feelings in gaming than a levelling up noise. Lets hope he keeps that in at least. COD has that for sure.

  • Mkwone #34 2 years ago

    Well that was anticlimatic. PM does it again

  • Caspar_Esq. #35 2 years ago

    I don't think I've ever been so unshocked. It took me about two minutes to remember how FII had experience, since that was pretty vague already.

  • Murton #36 2 years ago

    I wonder if everyone will still complain about there being a "level cap" even though they can't see it.

    I'm not a huge fan of Fable, I thought it was a bit weak as an RPG, great as an entry level game for those interested in going RPG but offered little to the enthusiast. This game doesn't look any different in that regard, though ditching the whole experience system and running it through followers and equipment is something we've seen before in Overlord and it didn't work particularly well there, with the Fable following it might work here but I'm sceptical at the moment.

  • JDFreeman #37 2 years ago

    I'm a fan and aint pissed off. Sounds more like Pete's been playing MASS Effect 2 and has noticed the less = more aproach works quite nicely.

  • Tangled #38 2 years ago

    @ frunk
    It might be a slightly bigger thing in the computer world. I'd say that in pen & paper and computer games the "RPG" stands for two different things: In p&p, for "role playing", in computer games, for levels, xp, skills and all that stuff that p&p inherited from wargames. If a developer says "we've added RPG elements to our game", you can bet it won't be a minigame about your character having PTSD after the battle, but some sort of xp/progression.
    So, this might be a bit of a risk. cRPG's haven't really changed much in years.

    Edit: but yeah, that was a pretty anticlimatic reveal.
    Edited by 1 at 12/02/10 @ 10:12

  • Chazmeister #39 2 years ago

    Well I hope they change the social interaction system this time, as I couldn't quite get on properly with that whole expression system, it just felt rather awkward to me..

  • superflyninja #40 2 years ago

    does he really keep saying man like that?
    it aint the 60s any more.....Keep up with the times grandad!!

  • Anora #41 2 years ago

    Fable2 was the biggest let down in my gaming history, ill be damned to get Fable3

  • twoism #42 2 years ago

    There will be XP for sure, it'll just be hidden. I wonder how we'll get to pick our skills though... will it be a matter of just using one particular type more often to have it upgrade automatically?

  • Shakey_Jake33 #43 2 years ago

    "If it ain't broke, don't fix it".

    Obviously it's best to wait until the game is available before making a judgement - I really liked Fable 2, so I have no reason to think they'd do a bad job this time. Still, I'm not really convinced with how he equates progress with 'pissing people off', you don't have to alienate your fanbase to be progressive. But lets wait and see.

  • TeaFiend #44 2 years ago

    What happens if I keep sacrificing my followers to the dark gods and eating their flesh? Does this mean I am not experienced?

  • Moribundman #45 2 years ago

    I'm sure some of the self-professed "anger" here is down to people taking the mickey that PM said his announcement would make gamers ANGRY. I think something as mundane as making a coffee or having a piss stir up strong emotions in young Peter...

    Fable 2 was a lovely little game. This looks good. I would say however, that PM's emotions seem to be ironically polarised to "Black & White". Nothing is "OK", "good" or "bad" - everything is "wonderous" or "terrible" to him. I wonder if he can understand or empathise with someone who neither likes or dislikes his games? I don't think he understands the concept of "meh".

    A great mind, but a bipolar one!

    He quite scares me actually.

  • JetSetWilly #46 2 years ago

    By 1990s experience he means "not tested properly"?

  • the_mtfr #47 2 years ago

    The change might be welcome and he's free to do what he wants, but he shouldn't be as arrogant as to call the other games who use proper XP and health bars "stupid". It's the freedom of choice, and when you make a choice you shouldn't insult everyone else. This guy has no education.

  • kdoggdayton #48 2 years ago

    As long as it isn't as piss easy as Fable II then I'll be happy

  • MikeN #49 2 years ago

    I don't mind the loss of health/xp bars in Fable III as long as there's a decent co-op system this time around.

  • OllyJ #50 2 years ago

    OH GOD I'M BESIDE MYSELF WITH ANGER OVER THIS!!


    Not really, I don't care as long as it's designed properly, I wish he'd have more faith in our willingness to accept change.

  • geeza2020 #51 2 years ago

    it was expected to be honest. Fable 2 dumbed down the already RPG-lite mechanics of the original, so it was obvious the same thing was going to happen for the third game. With all this "streamlining" in games nowadays, how long until we're playing games with a single button that just chooses between different responses?

  • konnsky #52 2 years ago

    No, thanks, Peter!
    Don't get me wrong but, I prefer old-school style RPGs.

  • butler` #53 2 years ago

    I think it's actually a pretty intelligent design decision inkeeping with the feel of Fable.

  • MightyMouse #54 2 years ago

    The problem being that it's a misleading statement. There's still experience but now it's represented in a slightly different way. I remember lots of games from the 1990s in which your weapons look different as you level and in which people react differently to you as you progress in the game.

  • Zomoniac #55 2 years ago

    You want an epic story, and have a connection with NPCs, buy a Bioware game, if you want to be free and live in a world where you can do almost anything and collect tons of stuff, buy a recent Beth game,

    And if you want a fun, charming and harmless action adventure game with vague links to an RPG, that you can play co-operatively and don't have to set aside 30-100 hours on dialogue trees to fully appreciate, buy Fable.

  • Raiten #56 2 years ago

    Why oh why do they have put everywhere now the hideous rechargeable health, someone said this system makes the player feel more immersed/involved what ever. So far everytime i've played anything with rechargeable health i've felt like a superman.. one that just has to take a breath sometimes and off i go again, it just takes the last bit of challenge out of any rpg game, but i guess that's the intention with fable games, making them easier and easier untill even a baby could play it trough drooling on controller.

  • Rubarack #57 2 years ago

    Ahh, an intelligent and progressive idea that strips out some of the thoughtless guff and focusses the system back to making worthwhile and interesting decisions.

    No wonder so many people hate it.

  • ignatiusjreilly #58 2 years ago

    It's interesting because while non-RPGs are starting to stick levelling up into everything, Fable is ditching it. It's like bizarro world, but both changes are welcome to me because they're helping to switch up the genres a bit.

  • Canyarion #59 2 years ago

    Wasn't the first Fable supposed to lack a visible experience system? Your character would grow automatically based on your actions.
    But at the last moment they changed their plans.

  • BigJonno #60 2 years ago

    I definitely agree that there is a vast amount of confusion between RPGs as games where you role-play and RPGs as a game genre that has XP and levels and stats. The whole point of computers is that they can handle lots of complex number-crunching, so it seems somewhat perverse to make that number-crunching the defining aspect of the genre.

    It'd be nice to see the streamlining and accessibility of Fable combined with a more detailed system under the hood. What about a Fallout or Elder Scrolls game with the "invisible stats" philosophy applied?

    What I really want to see happen to the Fable series is a stronger connection between the more traditionally videogame-like aspects and the "fluff." Maybe we'd see less complaints from the sort people who charged straight through Fable 2 without stopping to play around and then whinged about it.

  • darkmorgado #61 2 years ago

    @davisorle

    Yet noone is bitching about FFIV that wont have lvls.. lmao funny funny kids now days :)

    I think you'll find that FFIV came out around 20 years ago and had levels as well as a class system. There's even a remake of it on the DS and PSOne.
    Edited by 1 at 12/02/10 @ 15:43

  • frunk #62 2 years ago

    @ Tangled

    I agree with you... hopefully games like this will help bring the RP into computer RPGs.

    The point I was trying to make about XP's and levels is that in the majority of p&p RPGs they don't exist either. After a session you get a few points to spend on skills you used and you can buy equipment. And it looks like this will do the same.

    For the RP side I think things like "Heavy Rain" wil provide some alternative avenues for exploration of the deeper more emotional side of roleplaying. And some day I think MMORPGs may develop the concept of a personal narrative that you evolve as you develop, rather than screens of icons with standard skills. In the long run MMORPGs are a blind alley as they are not personal enough, everybody can't be "the champion of the universe" and feel special :)

    Its a long time before a computer game will come close to a p&p RPG, but the evolution is happening and its going to be an interesting ride.

  • Bravestinsane #63 2 years ago

    Why make the change? "The absolute main reason is that most people didn't really understand it,"


    eermm what?

    Am i a God/Genius, how hard is it to understanding, using MAGIC gets you MAGIC exp, using RANGE gets you RANGE exp, using FIGHITNG gets you FIGHTING exp. I forget what they were actually called but serious, if your too stupid to work that out you don't deserve to play an RPG

  • Alkeno #64 2 years ago

    PM keeps pushing the industry forward, we owe so much to guys like him.

  • Grayvern #65 2 years ago

    The problem with invisible xp. Or do something a gazillion times in a row to get better at it is that with and upwards take in difficulty the game further locks you into the first path you chose.

    You can't discount the ability of stats to enable a player to help them structure the confines of a role they wish to play. (or to anger the red Mage in us)

  • kongzi #66 2 years ago

    Doesn't Molyneux know that the 90's are making a big comeback??

  • Skorms-Boss #67 2 years ago

    Not angry, just intrigued!

  • Stratix #68 2 years ago

    I see no reason why anyone who enjoyed Fable II would not get Fable III, it looks awesome. All the hate is coming from people who don't enjoy the game anyway. People are always going to have opinions, and it'll do fine without them.

    What I don't understand is why people didn't "get" why experience was different colours. It's pretty simple, blue button gets blue experience etc. I don't know how they could have made it much simpler at the time.

    I'm totally for taking experience to a new level, I hate the numbers and bars etc, I think they totally need to be shaken up a bit.

  • Jalebee #69 2 years ago

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