E3: Greenberg: PS3 wand is "fun" like Wii

By Robert Purchese Published 4 June, 2009

But Natal is "leapfrogging" both.

Xbox 360 bigwig Aaron Greenberg thinks Sony's motion-sensing wand for PS3 will share the same "fun" space as Wii, but believes Microsoft's Project Natal is "leapfrogging" them both.

"To me it looked similar to the Wii experience. You hold a remote or a wand: it looked very derivative of that - similar to other products on the market today," Greenberg told vg247. "I thought it was interesting and fun, just like the Wii is fun. I think it's great that they're sharing that space.

"What's clear is that what we're doing is, in many ways, leapfrogging over any of the experiences [demoed] today. We're trying to breakthrough... with a new controller in gaming and entertainment, and I think that will differentiate us, and in many ways remove another barrier to people who are intimidated by, not just controllers, but wands and having to push buttons and do things.

"To be able to just drive a car with your hands, or to be able to kick balls as you swing and kick your feet. It's a whole different type of experience," he added.

Microsoft and Sony both unveiled rival motion-sensing technology during their keynote addresses at E3. Microsoft revealed Project Natal, the heavily-rumoured camera-based motion sensor, which hopes to kick-start a controller-free future.

Sony, on the other hand, demoed a prototype wand controller that has in-built sensors like Wii but also a dome on the end that is picked up by the PS Eye. The technology was put through a number of on-stage demonstrations, each more impressive than the other, culminating in an archery mini-game that used two of the controllers at once.

Nintendo's conference was more subdued in comparison, but then the Wii already has motion-sensing, which improves this summer with the Wii MotionPlus peripheral.

Microsoft and Sony offered no release dates for their technology, and Greenberg wouldn't budge on providing a hint. Presumably his company will enter the market first, as developer kits have been sent out this week and Project Natal is finished hardware. Nevertheless, both could be at least two years' away.

Head over to our hands-on impressions of Project Natal to find out more.

Picture of Robert.

About Robert Purchese

Bertie is Eurogamer's Senior Staff Writer. When he's not hunting down news stories he's often found playing with his kids or gabbling about fantasy games and strange online worlds.

Read more articles from Robert by visiting the Robert Purchese archive page.

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Comments (122) Latest comment 3 years ago

Comments threads automatically close after 30 days, but please feel free to continue chatting on the forum!

  • asphaltcowboy #1 3 years ago

    Oh good lord. This thread could be a bad one!

  • JahB #2 3 years ago

    two years??? you gotta be kidding me, in 2 years from now i expect the new console cycle to start
    Edited by 1 at 04/06/09 @ 15:23

  • Les #3 3 years ago

    The only proper response to this PR bullshit is LOL

  • Eraysor #4 3 years ago

    Both approaches have their advantages and disadvantages.

    That is all.

  • spekkeh #5 3 years ago

    Stop the press. A microsoft rep saying something friendly about the PS3? Wow.

  • Erinan #6 3 years ago

    Yeah, I'd rather have a controller in my hand, whatever shape it is, than just flailing through air.

  • urban #7 3 years ago

    what a smarmy prick..

    i'm sorry but driving a car with the motion sensing on the iphone for example..you have no feedback. no zero. no snap back.

    so you have no idea when you're actually driving in a straight line.

    you need context..you need to be grounded

  • Canyarion #8 3 years ago

    2 years?

    Wii Motion Plus is out this month. And it's about as good as PS3's tech.

    Natal is great technology, but I don't see it appealing to the casual market. I think those people really want something (simple) to hold. Holding your hands up in the air, controlling an imaginative steering wheel, how is that casual-friendly?
    I think Microsoft will do better to target the (semi-)hardcore with this. They are the ones who might want to spend $200 for full body motion control. If the games are good, which actually goes without saying.

  • Steroyd #9 3 years ago

    I think the bigger news here is that a microsoft rep said something non-negative about Sony's product.

    "To be able to just drive a car with your hands, or to be able to kick balls as you swing and kick your feet. It's a whole different type of experience," he added.

    Isn't Sony doing this in a limited capacity already with Eyepets?

  • Wastelander #10 3 years ago

    Um, there's nothing stopping you holding a controller as well as having Natal running.

  • Bigglesworth #11 3 years ago

    @spekkeh

    Backhanded compliment at best, which backfires due to the obvious popularity of the Wii.

  • ZeroAX #12 3 years ago

    yeah yeah. let's see some actual games that use this tech and less pr bullshit. and don't tell me about that stupid 11 year old pet, cause remember what they promised for fable 1 and 2? and how much did they deliver exactly?

    or just look at spore in 2005-7 and compare it with how it turned out

  • Collymilad #13 3 years ago

    Lets just face it.

    Sony = pwned.

  • MORZTAN #14 3 years ago


    /Waits for Negotiator ;)

  • Buenos_Estente #15 3 years ago

    I think Natal will be lovely but i do believe that eventually some kind of buttoned controller will be used in conjunction with it for more complex functionality

  • The-Bodybuilder #16 3 years ago

    @ idiotfoxhound
    Have you realised that due to it being handsfree, it means one can use a normal controller AND project minority report together?

  • metalmike25 #17 3 years ago

    I think Natal looks great, as long as the games produced are good. Still not sure what the difference is between this and eyetoy though. Plus 2 years is a long time.

    The sony one looks great fun although it's quite like the Wii controller.

    Either way it looks like Nintendo have had the biggest influence on games this generation

  • jonbwfc #18 3 years ago

    God, can we not just make it illegal for execs to talk about any console other than their own?

  • abelardie #19 3 years ago

    People saying Greenberg has made a positive comment about Sony need a lesson or two in passive aggression! :p

  • patch #20 3 years ago

    Here's hoping Microsoft have learned from the 360's earlier camera based offerings.

  • Liamario #21 3 years ago

    I think you need to look at how you would apply the tech in microsoft's motion system to a game. People who play gears of war aren't going to be happy swinging their arms around in their living room. The PS3 and Wii version can be put into actual games and work really well when done properly, natal.... not so much

  • TopKatt #22 3 years ago

    I'm just waiting for someone to invent some method of controlling games where I can just sit in my armchair, which isn't directly in front of the tv, and chill out without having to move about too much. If I could munch a bag of crisps and take a sip of tea as well while playing that'd be great. Until someone does that, I guess I'm stuck sitting or standing directly in front of my TV, flailing my arms and kicking my legs out to play my games.
    Edited by 1 at 04/06/09 @ 15:52

  • Wastelander #23 3 years ago

    It's nothing like eyetoy or the previous xbox cam though.
    It's all about the depthccam.

    The xbox interface is just testing the water. You'll all be using this as your next PC and media center interface, MS are going to push this tech for everything, not just the xbox arm.

  • Liamario #24 3 years ago

    Also, Aaron Greenburg is a ****ing arse biscuit

  • dadrester #25 3 years ago

    I think that will differentiate us, and in many ways remove another barrier to people who are intimidated by, not just controllers, but wands and having to push buttons and do things.

    ...people who are intimidated by having to do things?!

    gaming just died.

  • soarous #26 3 years ago

    Microsoft have uninvented the (steering) wheel.

    Nice idea, but humans like tools, we have done for quite a while now. Playing with air isn't as fun as using a tool/controller.
    Edited by 1 at 04/06/09 @ 16:03

  • Bigglesworth #27 3 years ago

    It's nothing like eyetoy or the previous xbox cam though.

    Actually apart from the static depth perception its *exactly* like the Eye, in terms of end result.

    @TopKatt
    Natal gives you freedom from sticky fingers (though I wouldn't want to be holding a cuppa while wafting my way through menu options...), and wireless motion sensitive controllers like the Sixaxis give you positional independance. Not sure how to marry the two concepts without a motorised camara that tracks your movement (or rather, your *position*, if you're laid on the sofa).

    edits: cackhandedness :(
    Edited by 2 at 04/06/09 @ 16:07

  • miiiguel #28 3 years ago

    interviwer: who do you you think was most impressive in 2K9 E3's
    MS PR dude: We won!

    interviewer: how does Natal diferentiates from Ninty and Sony wands?
    MS PR dude: ours is better.


    Damn, these MS PR dudes are realy cocky, no other PR would have claimed their products are the best. Sheeeesh...

  • Toothball #29 3 years ago

    It's nice that you can drive a car with your hands, but I can't see it being better than a steering wheel. So far Natal looks like interesting technology and all, but it's going to take something special to differentiate it from the alternatives where you just hold a controller.

  • Bigglesworth #30 3 years ago

    Point of interest: no controller = no force-feedback.

  • Wastelander #31 3 years ago

    There's nothing stopping you just holding up your standard xbox controller as a steering wheel if you needed to hold something or needed to push buttons.

  • Masaroth #32 3 years ago

    ive seen a lot of people saying about the lack of force feedback, but whats to stop them from releasing some kind of feedback glove for the people that desire it. If the demand is there and they can make money off it im sure that it will come out at some point in some shape or form.

  • NoCodeNed2 #33 3 years ago

    Hang on didn't sony say spring next year?...just checked - yes they did.

  • themorganator #34 3 years ago

    It's been mentioned earlier but it needs to be repeated to some of the monkeys in this thread. Natal can clearly operate with peripherals (see the Mylo demo and the envelope), so we're very likely to see some form of gun or sword in the future. FFS, MS will make money from them so we'll see 'em!

    The distinction between this and PS3 is the fact that you won't NEED to use a controller for some apps + you get voice recognition and FULL BODY mapping. Face it ladies, this is vastly superior on all fronts to the PS3 'wand'. If it takes 2 years, though, I for one will be seriously pissed off.

    Discuss, flame... whatever. You've got nothing but a Wii with better graphics. HAHAHAHAHAHAH

    wait for it.........

  • SidSinister #35 3 years ago

    able to kick balls as you swing and kick your feet

    But I am rubbish at football I am petty sure I could miss a open goal from half a metre away. When I play video games I don't want lack of physical skills getting in way of me being able to play a game to a reasonable level. Not to mention what It will be like when I am drunk.

  • TheStatics #36 3 years ago

    Someone should really explain to MS and Sony that the majority of people that buy their games are pretty much happy with using a controller. The other lot have already bought a Wii and are unlikely to buy another console.

    Surely an analyst somewhere will realise soon that there may not actually be a market for these novelty add-ons on the big boys consoles!
    Edited by 1 at 04/06/09 @ 16:34

  • Fletche #37 3 years ago

    "There's nothing stopping you just holding up your standard xbox controller as a steering wheel if you needed to hold something or needed to push buttons."

    Then why not just use the controller? Oh you mean use it AS a steering wheel, oh just like you already can with Mario Kart etc, so then this new technology allows you to do something you can already do?

    Aldo mentioned is the release of accessories, isn't this something the Wii has been criticized for, the amount of extra baggage you have to buy etc whilst the idea of being able to hold anything to use as something portrayed in the game (A plate for a steering wheel etc) just wait for the barrage of 1st and 3rd party tennis racquets, steering wheels, guns etc etc and the sad thing is, people will buy them.

  • RexRunti #38 3 years ago

    I get the impression MS will release Natal when enough games are ready for it (unlike the Live Vision). I also agree that I don't think MS intend for Natal to stop at the Xbox afterall the voice recognition is lifted from Windows 7 (which is already multi-touch screen compatible). I would expect this on PCs shortly after the 360 release and I'm sure MS hope for TVs and set-top boxes a couple of years afterthat.

  • xXn00bXx #39 3 years ago

    That's BS talking. Actually Nintendo acquired a broad range of customers with their Wiimote and if he compares Sony's product with that it is a great compliment for the Sony product. I don't know what he means with this BS that Sony and Nintendo are sharing the same market segment. In fact this segment of casual gaming is the biggest segment in the video game market, so if Microsoft does not want to go there, what are they actually trying to do with Natal? As I said, BS talking... Oh another thing:

    "Microsoft and Sony offered no release dates for their technology, and Greenberg wouldn't budge on providing a hint. Presumably his company will enter the market first, as developer kits have been sent out this week and Project Natal is finished hardware. Nevertheless, both could be at least two years' away."

    That's absolute BS. Sony sent out dev kits for their motion controller some time ago, presumably already last year. Natal is not finished yet, they only showed a prototype with additional cameras at E3 according to several other reports. Furthermore the device itself which was shown is only a non-functional prototype model. As the Natal video clearly states the scenes shown represent only a product vision. NO FINISHED PRODUCT OR HARDWARE YET.

    Just found the reference I was talking about:

    "The demo took place in a brightly-lit white room in the Standard Hotel in Los Angeles. A test version of Project Natal was set-up, including a camera over a TV and some other sensors. (None of Microsoft's Natal demos tonight used anything that looked like final hardware)."

    http://ko taku.com/5275204/testing-molyne...
    Edited by 1 at 04/06/09 @ 16:46

  • AphoticCosmos #40 3 years ago

    All three motion controllers are great.

    Please stop the fanboy wagon, I wan't to get off.

  • miiiguel #41 3 years ago

    "Point of interest: no controller = no force-feedback. "

    Haven't you heard that rumble/force-feed back is sooo last gen?

  • GreyBeard #42 3 years ago

    *Cough* Eyepet *Cough*

    Its amazing isn't it, Sony showed this off last August to a muted response and yet its not that far removed from what MS was touting as the "future".

    [link url=http://www.joystiq.com/2009/06/04/impressions -eyepet-ps3/#continued
    ]http://ww w.joystiq.com/2009/06/04/impres...[/link]

    Judging by this hands-on, it looks great, works as a game and should be out by the end of the year.

  • Eyhren #43 3 years ago

    I think the biggest flaw with most of the arguments MS make against sony with this one is the fact that because the sony tech also uses a camera, the only thing natal can do that the pseye can't is depth perception. A lot of the features like body mapping (on a more basic level) and voice recognition are completely possible with the sony technology as it is entirely software based. The pseye actually has quite a good mic if I do recall so voice recognition shouldn't be a problem at all. I think that while the PS3 tech is leaning more towards the wii, I would genuinely consider that a good thing. Natal is amazing technology and all, but I can't see it playing well in games. For a start, the eurogamer hands-on said that there is a slight delay with the mocap (not gamebreaking but noticeable enough to comment on) and some things just need a controller. Sure, they could sell peripherals that enhance the experience but then they are just doing exactly what sony have done- used a camera to detect a physical object and map it to a game.
    The sony thing looked like how we all imagined the wii would be like before it was released. We all dreamed of real-time lightsabre duels but unfortunately the tech didn't deliver. Sure, they've got WMP coming out which should sort the technology out, but nintendo have been such moneywhores these past few years that I just don't give a flying f*ck. So my money is currently sitting very tentatively on the PS3 attempt here, but only because it looked like a wii for big boys.

  • Les #44 3 years ago

    Must admit that it's a great achievement by MS PR that they weren't LOL-ed from the stage after showing a rebranded EyeToy a couple of years too late... It would be great if video game journalists weren't such fanboys* and were able to call bullshit when they see it... :(

    * I don't mean for any brand in particular but with respect to gaming in general
    Edited by 1 at 04/06/09 @ 17:17

  • IronGiant #45 3 years ago

    Considering he actually said this:

    "To be able to just drive a car with your hands, or to be able to kick balls as you swing and kick your feet. It's a whole different type of experience," he added.

    Suggests that they're pushing this as controller free which i think is utter rubbish, just imagine playing a racing game without any physical controller or feedback.. it's ridiculous. That comment about people being intimidated by buttons is hilarious, the Wii has successfully introduced a simple controller/button layout to millions of children and old folks who love it. Do you know anyone who could be intimidated by a wiimote??? The whole appeal of the Wii was to hold a controller and feel as if you were swinging a racket for example, what fun or sense of immersion is there from swinging your hand instead!! Suppose they could make a happy slapper simulator :)

  • Spekingur #46 3 years ago

    So if Bethesda would implement Natal into Oblivion then I would be able to a) find a stick and make Natal recognise it as a sword. They don't really make "force-feedback swords" anywhere. I could dodge blows from the enemy as well - and b) use a pillow for a shield. I think that is more amazing than Wiimotes. Anyone looking through the window would see me jumping around holding a stick and a pillow whereas I am immersed in fighting with a sword and shield ;D

    My only concern is focus, which might be okay if facial recognition works properly. With focus I mean, the person that the Natal focuses on to take input from.

    Steering wheel? You can use what you want. If you don't want a steering wheel you don't have to use one. But Natal doesn't provide force feedback or rumbling. With something this "real" people might want to feel some feedback (we use it in RL to judge how hard to hit a ball for example). But then again Sony's redballstick (someone at work called it a dildo hehehe) doesn't look like it provides any feedback either to the user.

    Side note, Natal might make RTS games easier to control.
    Edited by 1 at 04/06/09 @ 17:35

  • miiiguel #47 3 years ago

    Well, what I know for sure, is if MS had the wand instead, and Sony the Natal, the course of this debate would have been roughly the same, but opinions would come from diferent posters.
    - MS copying Wii (omg; lol!) - this would spawn, that's for sure!
    Edited by 1 at 04/06/09 @ 17:34

  • Calgon #48 3 years ago

    MS could easily release some perhiperals with it, this would be cheep to do they could just have LEDs on them(greater accuracy/focus as a pointer), triggers and buttons, if they really wanted to use this for hardcore games it has great potential.

  • Les #49 3 years ago

    I predict a lot of people will be disappointed with Natal's capabilities once it hits the market about 3 years from now...

  • CrumpledPaper #50 3 years ago

    Having worked on the 'no controller' thing for years with eyetoy and PSeye, I think Sony can quite credibly say there are limitations in taking a camera-only route, and in thinking about Natal more since it was unveiled and letting the hype wear off a bit, I definitely do see those limitations. Long before MS showed up with Natal, in fact, Richard Marks who created eyetoy was talking up mixing a controller with a camera rather than going camera-only because of the limitations the latter has (and he's done a lot of research on depth-sensing cameras too, so I trust he knows what he's talking about).

    Also reading about eyepet it demonstrates a lot of the stuff MS did less tangibly in their Natal demos, like pure gesture control and drawing recognition etc. And that's coming this Christmas. So they can do these things too with PS Eye, but also have the benefit of a very precise controller with buttons that'll mesh a lot better with most types of games.

  • Accordi0n #51 3 years ago

    PR BULL

    I actualy think Natal is a good premise, but it is clearly set as a direct imitation of the Wii ethic, even the press video was exactly like a Wii advert.

    Sony actually demoed [however simply] that their controller is ready to be used in full "core" gaming experiences with both FPS and RTS along with truly amazing virtual object compositing that was lightning fast.

  • miiiguel #52 3 years ago

    CrumpledPaper about Live (sorry, don't take me wrong, but *it has been a year now*):
    [link url=http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/xb ox-live-different-league-to-psn/comments
    ]http://ww w.eurogamer.net/articles/xbox-l...[/link]

    "CrumpledPaper
    15-May-07 11:37:06 A laggier, P2P league? That's been my experience with Live games versus my PSN games..

    He's also going to have a lot of egg on his face if and when Sony does deliver on Home . He's basically hyping it up as something that requires lots of work and investment, even beyond what Microsoft would be comfortable with - despite the fact that we directly pay them for their service. Someone should save these soundbites and come back to him with them in a year or so. "

    The point? The point being, Natal is only being bashed because it's from MS, and MS has this "flamable thing".

  • shotgun44 #53 3 years ago

    I just want to play with a normal controller! To think, if the Wii didn't fuck everything up by becoming huge, I'd be getting a nice shiny new button filled controller next gen. Colour me sad :(

  • drumbaby #54 3 years ago

    You lost me at "Xbox 360 bigwig Aaron Greenberg thinks".

    EG's special subject: 'the bleeding obvious'....

  • Bander #55 3 years ago

    [link url=http://www .youtube.com/watch?v=Mk_-G96Szw0
    ]http://www .youtube.com/watch?v=Mk_-G96Szw0
    [/link]

    Worth watching, to see that Microsoft's researchers have had working hardware for at least 2 years. To see how Natal can see depth, and to see that MS have also been looking at using this with their Surface projects.

  • the_dudefather #56 3 years ago

    SHOW
    ME
    THE
    GAMES

    Otherwise is is all for 'Carnival games HD'

  • mss99 #57 3 years ago

    As much as Natal looks cool it suffers from the ole promotional demo rather than reality scenario. Those PR boffins can mock up cool looking demos for their actors to play along to. I mean the driving game. Seems great in concept but if your hands are the steering wheel how the hell do you accelerate and brake. Somethings just need a physical controller at the end of the day. That said I bet they will come up with some great niche ideas that hopefully pan out better in reality than "In the Movies".

    What everyone really wants is a real Star Wars lightsaber game. Think the new PS3 motion controller looks best suited to that one.

  • Les #58 3 years ago

    "Seems great in concept but if your hands are the steering wheel how the hell do you accelerate and brake."

    Using your feet as on/off switches apparently. They weren't that stupid... ;)

  • mattigan #59 3 years ago

    You control speed with your feet, just like a car.

    have you read the hands on article?

  • man.the.king #60 3 years ago

    @miiiguel

    "if MS had the wand instead, and Sony the Natal, the course of this debate would have been roughly the same, but opinions would come from diferent posters. "

    For once, we are in agreement :)

  • man.the.king #61 3 years ago

    I was thinking, most of us play games for hours on end. Would Natal (or whatever it is called when it is actually released commercially) require us to be active in this manner for hours?

    Let us take the racing game for example. If accelerating requires you to put your foot forward, how long do you think you can keep that up? Or, let's say, you have to change from accelerating to braking rather quickly, how would that work? What if you fidget? I realize that this is still a prototype, but I'm just putting this out there as food for thought.
    Edited by 1 at 04/06/09 @ 20:40

  • Machiavellian #62 3 years ago

    Do anyone remember this patent from MS
    [link url=http://news.teamxbox.com /xbox/16252/Microsoft-Patents-Wii-Remote-Killer-Game-Control ler/
    ]http://ne ws.teamxbox.com/xbox/16252/Micr...[/link]

    I can definitely see something like this pared with Natal. I am sure right now MS is trying to separate themselves from Sony and Big N devices since they are pretty much the same. You can pair the MS controller design with Natal where your hands can pretty much still be free but you can still perform actions that require a button or physical device in your had for Rumble and feedback. For this E3, I believe MS is trying to separate themselves from Sony and Big N with the full body tracking but in the end, they will pair Natal with a device for the hardcore games.

    People keep harping on the racing demo where you are holding the steering wheel with your hands. Someone mentioned you could just hold the gamepad just as well to get the rumble and the buttons. Now with that concept you can go farther and use the head tracking ability of Natal to use for looking around. including into the rear view mirror, side mirros or just a quick look back.

    The thing that will be a complete boom for developers is that you are not tied to just using the motion controller from the Console. A game like Rock Band or Guitar Hero is a prime example. Those games can be taken to a totally different level with Natal then with Sony or Big N offering. Face Recognitions include facial scan can be used together to add each band memeber into the game. Since the game can track your facial movements, those also can be incorporated into the game. Full Body motion can have each player movements include within the game including the guitars, mike and drumstickts. You talk about a party game, if Activision or EA could do that with Natal, that would take those games to the next level.

    Think about a game like Ghost Recon or Call of Duty with the controller I talked about ealier. You can use voice and hand singles to direct the NPC. You can point to objects and use simple hand singles and voice to get them to do it. There is a lot of freedom that Natal present that you will not get with Sony or Big N solution. Of course this will require some creative individuals.

  • bad09 #63 3 years ago

    "I just want to play with a normal controller! To think, if the Wii didn't fuck everything up by becoming huge, I'd be getting a nice shiny new button filled controller next gen. Colour me sad :("


    This. But they're like a dog with a bone now and the casuals lap it up. Best put next gen out you're mind for now I think.

  • smelly #64 3 years ago

    Sony's system has more possibilities for games than microsofts one does.

    Especially fps game (ironically - considering how many fps games microsoft has!)

    For me - sony clear winners here

    (no i dont own a ps3)

  • smelly #65 3 years ago

    I cant see the microsoft thing being any more or less popular than the eye toy it rips off..

    Yes it's more advanced, but (like the eye toy before it) I cant see it being used for much more than mini games...

  • Les #66 3 years ago

    "Now with that concept you can go farther and use the head tracking ability of Natal to use for looking around. including into the rear view mirror, side mirros or just a quick look back."

    Which of course wouldn't work at all unless you had a 360 degree screen around you...

  • Les #67 3 years ago

    "There is a lot of freedom that Natal present that you will not get with Sony or Big N solution."

    Pretty much everything you describe would work as well and probably better with Sony's EyeToy and silly glowing balls TBH.

    IMHO people shouldn't assume too much about what Natal can do while it's still nothing more than a collection of hastily thrown together concepts only shown to draw attention away from Nintendo and Sony's offerings.

  • Machiavellian #68 3 years ago

    @Les
    Ok the look back part will not work ;)

    Sony's system has more possibilities for games than Microsoft’s one does.

    Especially fps game (ironically - considering how many fps games Microsoft has!)

    Yeah, I see the Sony solution has about the same potential as the Wiimote. I also see the same limitations since it only works with those glow wands.

    What I see is the ability to go beyond the Wiimote and glow wand because Natal is not limited by those contraptions. You can have your button stick pointer and full body tracking with Natal. That’s the difference between the two technologies.

    Until I see a developer do anything with Sony solution other than a mini game, it's pretty much in the same boat as Natal.
    Edited by 1 at 04/06/09 @ 21:59

  • Machiavellian #69 3 years ago

    @ Les
    The problem with the EyeToy is that it uses a regular camera. Have you tried to use the Eyetoy in poor lighting. I have a few EyeToy games that work like crap because my Den does not provide enough light to the Eyetoy to make it percise. Even though people keep saying the Natal is an enhance Eyetoy, they are still worlds appart because of the added IR camera. The IR Camera does not need light which is a huge problem with the EyeToy.

    Actually I am not using the demos from E3 as assumptions but instead using all of the videos I have seen of this technology since 2001. There is a host of vidoes on Youtube that shows this technology off and how versatile it is.
    Edited by 1 at 04/06/09 @ 22:01

  • Les #70 3 years ago

    "@Les
    Ok the look back part will not work ;)"

    Not just looking back, looking side ways would also have your eyes moving away from the screen unless you want to make a really awkward motion... ;)

    "Until I see a developer do anything with Sony solution other than a mini game, it's pretty much in the same boat as Natal."

    Indeed. It's very much the question whether either will be usuable in core gamer type games in the foreseeable future. The only plus Sony's solution has IMHO is that Sony has discarded a camera only set-up based on some years of experience in an actual gaming environment.

  • deathdealer619 #71 3 years ago

    i think this is remeinding me of the days of the nintendo virtual boy promises!

  • Les #72 3 years ago

    "The IR Camera does not need light which is a huge problem with the EyeToy."

    I've used both the EyeToy and the PSEye and haven't had much trouble with it when it comes to lighting. Might vary from home to home but especially the new camera should be sufficient in most environments. The IR camera will remove much of that 'problem', true and that's probably why Sony's silly balls glow. But it will not take away the issue of accuracy and responsiveness, like the balls do.
    Edited by 1 at 04/06/09 @ 22:29

  • GreyBeard #73 3 years ago

    What really bothers me about the whole Natal thing and the way it was presented in conjunction with the Milo demo, is that its a whole bunch of different technologies thrown together to create a misleading impression.

    The hardware is basically an Eyetoy2 with the addition of a 3DV style IR camera that can create a z-buffer image of what the camera sees in addition to its normal visible light-wavelength camera.

    The voice recognition is software based (from Windows 7 probably).

    The interpretive software that has some understanding of the human skeletal system is again something thats been added as its the thing that communicates between the Natal hardware and the 360.

    The AI stuff shown by the Milo demo is a grab bag of stuff thrown together by Moly's team at Lionhead.

    These are all separate elements. Although there's no reason why MS couldn't bundle them together as a Natal API, this isn't the same as a single piece of uber hardware that MS has sole rights to.

    We already have camera based games that do not require the 3d element. (The breakout demo was basically 2d - the girl playing it was jumping aropund on the spot)

    Same deal with the hand actuated Xbox dash demo - its a pure 2d interface so where's the need for depth sensing?

    Voice recognition is a well known technology.

    The "emotional AI" in the Milo deno used a couple of basic psychologiical and anthropomorphic tricks to give the impression of it being cleverer than it really is. The AI feeds the player leading questions, and responds to pitch changes in the voice to determine whether the input was interrogative, or humorous.

    Knowing what colour the "interviewee"'s clothing is, is again a simple trick. They are stood in front of an RGB camera, so interrogating the frame buffer to get an average colour for the player's torso is hardly magical!

    If you analyse what was actually shown (and especially bear in mind that a lot of the video stuff was faked anyway - see that animated gif showing the "extra" hand in the water-ripple demo for example) its really not all that impressive.

    Honestly guys, if Sony's faked-up Killzone2 trailer pissed you off, this should make you even more angry.

  • smelly #74 3 years ago

    also - didnt moly give the excuse in one interview (trying to find it) that the reason they didnt do a live milo demo was due to "lighting conditions" on the stage.

    so where people are getting this "doesnt have the same lighting conditions problems" from is beyond me.

  • smelly #75 3 years ago

    Natal really is little more than a slightly improved eye toy (can detect depth) with voice support.

    Sonys solution is also an improved eye toy - but theirs can also detect things like: where your hand is, what angle is it facing, where is it pointing, etc etc. None of those things are possible with the solution microsoft did.

    Look at sonys solution where he wrote his name - compare that to microsofts solution where all he could really do is splat paint in the rough area.

    Look at sonys solution where they used it to make a fps which accuractely followed his movements - compare that to microsofts avatars "looking at the bottom of his foot animation" - which did anything but follow his movements.

    lets not forget that the sony wand can give tactile feedback (like vibration, or making the ball shine different colours) - and having a controller with buttons really is a necesity for a lot of games. (thinks back to eye toy and shudders at the thought of wiggling fingers over a button to make it know you've pressed it).

    Natal is just an eyetoy.. which sony were first at making by a long shot (even before the wii!)

    I dont see how you can look at the two demos with anything but rose tinted fanboy glasses (For the record - i own a 360 and a wii .. i dont own a ps3 - not until the price comes down!) - and not see how sonys tech is better?



    Edited by 2 at 04/06/09 @ 23:53

  • makeamazing #76 3 years ago

    As someone else has said, Natal and Milo are two separate entities.

    Firstly Milo was a tech demo, it wasnt really showing off what Natal can do, it was a smart, well PR'd tech demo. Does anyone REALLY think that voice recognition has significantly improved.. and that the amount of responses the computer can give is going to be that great? Of course it will look great if the computer has learnt a specific persons voice and the presenter knows what questions to ask. If anyone cared to watch the video correctly, half the time the lady is talking basically to herself... and milo isnt saying anything... why you might ask... because its a well rehearsed PR excercise.

    There was a program in the 1980's called Ghost Watch on the BBC, it was a spoof kind of program about ghosts in a persons house, film in a live documentary style. It was so easy to see right through it, just by the responses etc. BUT many people were so duped by it.

    As for Natal, I think the technology might not be too bad for basic stuff, but is it really practical? Seriously I will not have my arms out for a long period of time trying to race a car. Ive already done the wii tennis thing, and its got boring pretty quick. Others might say, why not use a controller as well then... errm then what is the point in paying for and getting the technology. Credit to MS, they have looked at movies and have tried to put together something that is futuristic, unfortunately its not practical in this instance and with the technology as it stands.

  • Teamallstar #77 3 years ago

    Playstation seemed a bit late to the party with this. I actually laughed out loud when they started showing the "Wand"!!

    The day after Microsoft took gaming to a whole different level.

  • AusFreelancer #78 3 years ago

    Am I the only one that thinks of pregnant women, when I hear or read "Natal"?

    At least you need a purple headed wand to achieve that..... ;p

  • smelly #79 3 years ago

    >Playstation seemed a bit late to the party with this

    You mean the SAME sony that released the EYE TOY *YEARS* ago?

    You know, the eye toy.. it's pretty much what natal is...

    Fucking hell. .are fans so blinkered they REALLY believe the rubbish shown by msoft and think it to be BETTER than sony's showing?

    sheesh!

  • Machiavellian #80 3 years ago

    @Smelly Sonys solution is also an improved eye toy - but theirs can also detect things like: where your hand is, what angle is it facing, where is it pointing, etc etc. None of those things are possible with the solution microsoft did.

    There is nothing that you have just said that Natal cannot do. Are you saying that Natal cannot tell what angle your hand is at or facing, where it is pointing. Have you seen any of the videos that shows off this technology besides what you have seen from E3. Forget E3 and actually go to Youtube and check out all the videos on this technology. There is a heck of a lot of things that Natal can do that was not shown and that clearly is head and shoulders above having physical device like the Wiimote or Sony solution. Personally MS really did not take advantage to show the technology properly and I must give mucho credit to Sony for them demonstration even if by conference standards did not have the pow it needed.

  • Yaz #81 3 years ago

    smelly wrote "Natal really is little more than a slightly improved eye toy (can detect depth) with voice support."

    And sony's wand is little more than a modified wiimote.

    There, see how easy it is to be dismissive just for the sake of it. ;-)

    The fact is, each approach has advantages and disadvantages, but I do feel Natal is a step forward from the wands and may capture the public imagination as the original Wii did. I can't see this happening with Sony's solution, I can't see it generating the same excitement, since it's more a 'me too' approach (which may not be a bad thing given the success of the Wii).

    We'll see.

  • Les #82 3 years ago

    "There is a heck of a lot of things that Natal can do that was not shown and that clearly is head and shoulders above having physical device like the Wiimote or Sony solution."

    I have seen some tech demos on youtube but TBH nothing comes close to accurate controls suited for gaming. Maybe I'm searching with the wrong keywords...

    "but I do feel Natal is a step forward from the wands and may capture the public imagination as the original Wii did."

    Well actually it's a step backwards as eyetoy pre-dates the Wii-mote...

    I repeat: the only purpose of the Natal demo was to make people not want Sony's and Nintendo's offerings.

  • RedSparrows #83 3 years ago

    Buh, Eyetoy was so fully featured and so integrated that Natal is just Eyetoy once more.

    Yes, this clearly makes sense.

    Why is it then, that, um, it looks several times better? As someone said, by that token the Sony thing is just a Wiimote. Obviously.

  • rotmm #84 3 years ago

    @Les, I repeat: the only purpose of the Natal demo was to make people not want Sony's and Nintendo's offerings.

    I agree. Something that Microsoft have been working on for years was shown solely to take away the limelight from Sony's glowing dildo's.

  • MORZTAN #85 3 years ago

    As I recall, it was the Live Natal demo that showed an Avatar disembowel itself with it´s fist, just to show us the sole of it´s shoe. Now THAT was rubbish!

    Microsoft had a nice packaging, not a nice offering. Sonys looked better, Nintendos looked like it actually works. And like Peter Molyneux said; "Motion Plus is here now. And it works!"

  • Les #86 3 years ago

    "Why is it then, that, um, it looks several times better?"

    But did it? Pretty much everything that was impressive in the tech demo was the equivalent of 'target footage'. While it might be disappointing if the final game engine doesn't meet the quality of a target render, the game can still be playable and enjoyable. If the actual precision and capability of the controls turns out to be much worse than the initial target footage, it has severe impact on the gameplay.

    But it proves again that if you show people something they want to believe, you can get away with almost anything...
    Edited by 1 at 05/06/09 @ 08:38

  • woodyrulesok #87 3 years ago

    Until MS can prove that Natal is a viable gaming device with the accuracy and convenience it just means you have this
    [link url=http://im g2.imageshack.us/img2/323/bamd.gif
    ]http://im g2.imageshack.us/img2/323/bamd....[/link]

    Sony wands looked like they have great potential as a workable device, BUT, they are not out yet and no games.

    Wiis motion plus is ready to go now and works, so so far Nintendo has the upper hand.

  • Les #88 3 years ago

    "Wiis motion plus is ready to go now and works, so so far Nintendo has the upper hand."

    Exactly. But even there it remains to be seen how well it works in/what it adds to actual games.

  • bluem4gic #89 3 years ago

    I am sure that I heard Sony say that the motion controllers would be release in spring 2010

    Was I mistaken?

  • NotSoSlim #90 3 years ago

    All this is boring to be honest...all i was think was Demon Souls 2 with the option of the dual wand control

  • andromeda #91 3 years ago

    i want to be comfortable and play games. Not use my whole fuckin body.

    When your spazzing around the room chasing a digital tennis ball, you have to ask yourself, wouldnt the real thing be better?


  • andromeda #92 3 years ago

    rather than quarelling and fighting over whose tech is better bla bla, we should all be joining forces here in condemnation of the fact that all the big players are potentially ruining gaming and dragging us closer and closer to CASUAL GAMING HELL

  • Rodchenko #93 3 years ago

    It's been mentioned earlier but it needs to be repeated to some of the monkeys in this thread. Natal can clearly operate with peripherals

    But that's not how MS itself is branding and selling it. When they hammer on the point that all I need is my 'life experience' (because otherwise it would be just a Wii-mote rip-off) I sure might have one or the other question how they think this should work in terms of feedback and tracking. Monkey that I am.

  • danathjo #94 3 years ago

    after having my Wii for a couple months i'm preferring the next gen sticks solely to the traditional controller
    small chance but at least give me the option

    these new toys won't kick off until the next machines comes out anyway, too late into the cycle to make a blip on the current gen

  • Skurmedel #95 3 years ago

    Can't they all just shut up and prove how good their stuff is with actual products. Trash talking other companies products just alienates potential customers.

  • jjolley #96 3 years ago

    At Farti:
    It seems that on one hand you're criticising others for liking there system, but you're also defending your own machine to the hilt. After all, both these systems are going to make an impact within the motion sensing arena. It seems to me that you're intention is to belittle any serious PS3 discussion by complaining. Playing demos doesn't mean you're qualified to comment on the strengths of the ps3. Some of us can because we've own both, I certainly can as between me and my partner we've gotten through 6 Xbox 360s and literally binned it once it died again. I went out and brought the ps3 and will never buy an MS product. Regarding the system generally, it has more to offer the blind user, especially with blu-ray and proper audio codecs. I've watched more movies on the system, just because of the surround sound and audio quality.

    As to comparing the systems, you're wasting your time as you're not actually discussing anything. You're a 360 fanboy and using this as some basis to whine about the competition.

    Finally, regarding the wand, seems an interesting concept and I have more faith in this being usable compared to natal.

  • onyxbox #97 3 years ago

    None of this motion stuff makes the experience better/more enjoyable for driving, sports etc... it just makes it seem more accessible to the general public.

    No one in their right mind is going to swap playing Forza or GT5 etc. on a force feedback steering wheel for waving their hands in front of the telly and say: "you know what, that feels better"

    Even though Natal / Eyetoy can work out where your arms and legs are I bet people will still buy loads of stupid plastic shit to make it feel a little bit more real.

    None of these camera things give you any feedback either... a key thing with the Wii was to put vibrate and sound into thing thing in your hand.

    Natal is cool tech that's pushing the boundary of interaction for sure but the argument that "just imagine playing tennis without anything in you hand" doesn't wash with me. Conversing with a character in Fallout 4... maybe... although the missus might get a bit pissed off with me talking to the telly.

  • duarteq #98 3 years ago

    funny guy this almost beer name is... what a troll...

  • jjolley #99 3 years ago

    At Farti:
    Just what is your problem? I suggested that you're views are more fanboy than fact. Sorry you don't like it. As to ignoring you, I'm the sort of person who is genuinly interested in what folk have to say. I don't appreciate being talked down too by the likes of you either. I have as much right to post here as you do, discussion is always useful. I forgot, this is the internet, it automaticly gives people like you the rights to act an arsehole.

  • jjolley #100 3 years ago

    At Farti:
    How is it hypocrytical shite? I have already owned the 360, already had experience with the system. I didn't say I disliked the 360, I said that the hardware isn't well thought out. One wonders really, how do you get on with real people? Are you generally this abrasive to folks?

  • Katsumoto #101 3 years ago

    You mean not everyone has ignored him by now?

  • ronuds #102 3 years ago

    It's funny how everyone seems to know what casuals would want, yet no one could have predicted the Wii's success. It's funny too how suddenly the PS3 having a wand is a "good thing".

    What both products say to me is one company is trying to do something different that might catch on and become an industry changer, while the other company did nothing original and made a Wii-mote with a light on the end. Sony needs to come up with something original or I have no idea what use they are to the industry anymore. They have been looking for an identity this whole generation, and their way of trying to find it is to do everything a year later than everyone else is doing it. Yippee!

    Whether or not Natal catches on is anyone's guess, but at least MS did something somewhat different. Who's going to buy an expensive PS3 for a wand when they can just get a Wii for half the price? However, casuals may buy a 360 for Natal because it's something different. And although I wouldn't want to play my games full time with Natal, it's hard to deny I'd love to try it.

  • El-Dev #103 3 years ago

    @ronuds, you've clearly missed out on something that has been mentioned previously, they Eyetoy.

    Although what sony have done isn't original, I don't like the waggle games so have no interest in it, MS are just making some advancements to what has already existed and been in use for some while. Claiming originality on behalf of MS isn't entirely accurate. Games without controllers will add more limitations than it removes. Yes it is good to see MS trying something different but in the end it is to aim at the casuals with "look this is better than the Wii" as is Sonys attempt to attract the same crowd. Neither additions were ground breaking despite what Spielberg says.


  • makeamazing #104 3 years ago

    I will believe it when i see it actually released and the shine of good PR has worn off.

    I repeat what i said previously

    If anyone cared to watch the video correctly, half the time the lady is talking basically to herself... and milo isnt saying anything... why you might ask... because its a well rehearsed PR excercise.

    People are very gullible these days. Im not that impressed with the PS3 wand either, as its just a more advanced wii remote, BUT the main problem with the wii isnt the controller, its that the graphics are crap.

    Some people (farty and a few others), will continue to defend MS like their life is at risk, but I can be pretty much confident that what we have all been shown is nothing like its going to be when its released... /me thinks there will be alot of backtracking, thats if its released in the next 10 years :D

  • Les #105 3 years ago

    "People are very gullible these days."

    Like I said before, it's easy to make people believe something that they want to believe. Ninty makes a console with motion sensing and xbox fans claim it's rubbish. Sony adds motion controls to it's controller and again they claim it's no use. And when surprise, surprise, MS joins the motion controls craze with a hastily put together PR video and clumsy on stage demonstrations all of a sudden it's the holy grail of next gen gaming... Rather sad actually.

  • makeamazing #106 3 years ago

    @farty, well i apologise if I wrongly accused you of saying it would work, sometimes its very difficult with your swearing and unfriendly attitude to people who use/buy Sony that you just see you slating Sony and defending MS... that you agree with what MS are doing.

  • AliRay #107 3 years ago

    I dunno about anyone else, but I for one simply wanted a pointer-type device to improve shooting games, and give keyboard/mouse type accuracy. This goes against that somewhat and only goes to increase the amount of waggly/arm-waving games that are frankly ruining the Wii experience.

    Case in point: I fookin loved Red Steel (for all it's flaws) but the huge amount of waggle games and a general lack of quality led me to sell my Wii on a while ago. The Devs seem to be ignoring what is, imo, the best bit about the Wii remote!

  • jjolley #108 3 years ago

    At Farti:

    How many more times? I owned 360s. I'll never buy another MS product because they are a let down generally in my view from the hardware design. The games? They were fine. I personally just prefer PS3 and see more potential for the blind on that platform. I can't comment on the graphical side as I can't see anything. From an audio perspective though, blu-ray wins hands down. Tough if facts are facts and you can't take them. This isn't even about the wand with you, it's about the fact that Sony are doing something and you hate them.

  • MilkYMoO #109 3 years ago

    I'm very excited about project natal, not just because of its revolutionary controls, but also because of its use of voice recognition.
    Playing something like resident evil 6 or an army of two game with it could be amazing. The potential is incredible, but then again I bought a wii because of its potential and only madworlds controls have really impressed me.
    I'm looking forward to the ps3 wand aswell, although nowhere near as impressive as project natal its shows loads of potential. Damn I'm using that word again.

  • ronuds #110 3 years ago

    "and xbox fans claim it's rubbish. Sony adds motion controls to it's controller and again they claim it's no use. And when surprise, surprise, MS joins the motion controls craze with a hastily put together PR video and clumsy on stage demonstrations all of a sudden it's the holy grail of next gen gaming... Rather sad actually."

    I don't think anything has "gone down" exactly like you describe it - at least not for the majority of people. I don't know who ever claimed the Wii-mote is "no use" or "rubbish". The implementation of the device, however, has not been spectacular. Plus, having to hear "gaming is simply better with waggle" over and over again when it's simply not true for everyone, is very annoying.

    As well, the PS3s answer to the wii-mote isn't "rubbish" but what purpose does it serve in the market? If I'm looking to buy a console with a wii-mote-like device, am I going to buy a PS3 for its wand and the few games it has for it, or am I just going to buy a Wii? In terms of Natal, it has least has the potential to grab a new or existing Wii audience because it's a bit different.

  • Erebu #111 3 years ago

    @ jjolley, makeamazing

    Please... ignore him. He is the biggest arsehole here on EG.

  • Skurmedel #112 3 years ago

    At least he's got much free time...

  • man.the.king #113 3 years ago

    @Yaz

    Capturing the public imagination is a huge difference from having practical gaming application.

    But, as the Wii has so adequately demonstrated, if you manage to sway public opinion into your favor, you can forego having much practical application of your technology.

  • Yaz #114 3 years ago

    That's right 'man.the.king', hence capturing the public imagination would be half the battle won, perhaps more so.

  • liverpoolfc #115 3 years ago

    jjolley im with you

  • Linkified #116 3 years ago

    People who are complaining about feedback in racing games for instance, a standard controller doesn't give you any feedback, wii doesn't and I'll be interesting if sony will replace the DualShock 3 for the DualShock Air(there motion controller) if so steering a car will be lame.

  • mizcicz #117 3 years ago

    this gets toatally outta control

  • Godhather08 #118 3 years ago

    PR bullshit by the biggest moron in the business.

  • davisorle #119 3 years ago

    @ Canyarion and all the Canyarions out there with similar comments..
    "2 years?
    Wii Motion Plus is out this month. And it's about as good as PS3's tech.
    Natal is great technology, but I don't see it appealing to the casual market. I think those people really want something (simple) to hold. Holding your hands up in the air, controlling an imaginative steering wheel, how is that casual-friendly?"

    lol seriously SO many ppl asked about it. So tell me, holding a stick/wand in ur hands while waving them makes it more friendly or just more gay? I dont understand your point at all. lol

    Yeah Wiimore and the "wand" or wtf they call it is the same shit. Natal is way over that phase, I cant wait fora damn techy piece of thing in my house ^^ awesome simply awesome.

  • davisorle #120 3 years ago

    @ soarous

    "Microsoft have uninvented the (steering) wheel.
    Nice idea, but humans like tools, we have done for quite a while now. Playing with air isn't as fun as using a tool/controller."


    Difference between being logical and moron. If you think that way then why dont you go and drive a damn cart or anything in an actual track or whatever instead of drive sitting down in ur livingroom. What about that? .. ffs some ppl seriously will use everything whn they feel like bitching. Dont fucking buy it and go out a bit more. That should do it for ya and the rest

  • CHAZBIGPOTATO #121 3 years ago

    Some great trolling, WUMing, WOTing and flaming going on here, typical Eurogamer comments, life would be so dull without this..

    "To be able to just drive a car with your hands, or to be able to kick balls as you swing and kick your feet. It's a whole different type of experience," he added.
    ^^^
    Take that sentence out of context and it sounds utterly ridiculous.

  • Accordi0n #122 3 years ago

    SO the Sony Wand is derivative of the Wii remote… i'll go with that, but only if we all agree that Natal is derivative of the Playstation 2 Eyetoy.

    Eyetoy was the first to prove that motion controlled casual games were viable in the market, there were alot of games, even a skating game.