Crytek drops PC exclusives

By Tom Bramwell Published 30 April, 2008

Because of piracy.

Crysis developer Crytek is unlikely to make another PC-exclusive game because of problems with piracy.

"We are suffering currently from the huge piracy that is encompassing Crysis. We seem to lead the charts in piracy by a large margin, a chart leading that is not desirable," company president Cevat Yerli told PC Play.

Yerli said that pirated games "inherently destroy the platform" and linked this to the fact that games on consoles sell four or five times as many copies.

"It was a big lesson for us and I believe we won't have PC exclusives as we did with Crysis in future. We are going to support PC, but not exclusive any more," he said.

However, Yerli dismissed ongoing suggestions that Crysis will be ported to consoles. "Crysis would have to be largely changed to bring it to Xbox 360 or PlayStation 3," he said, adding that the developer's "internal focus is not linked to bring Crysis to consoles".

That's a shame for console owners who read glowing reviews of Crytek's jungly first-person shooter and hoped to get a chance to have at it.

Picture of Tom.

About Tom Bramwell

Tom is Operations director of Eurogamer Network and Editor-at-Large of Eurogamer.net. He joined the company in February 2000.

Read more articles from Tom by visiting the Tom Bramwell archive page.

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Comments (182) Latest comment 4 years ago

Comments threads automatically close after 30 days, but please feel free to continue chatting on the forum!

  • nickthegun #1 4 years ago

    See? You're only hurting yourselves, you filthy scoundrels.

  • bengray66 #2 4 years ago

    I would love to play Crysis, but simply my computer is not powerful enough to run it at an acceptable rate. Thats the perk with consoles, you see a game, and you know its going to work. It must be hard to make real solid profit in the PC market on top notch games like that. Piracy of course does not help either.

  • UncleLou #3 4 years ago

    I can't discuss this on three places at once, just saying it should be remembered that Crysis sold far more than a million by now, before people remember the false 80k figure.

  • Eraysor #4 4 years ago

    I think the reason why piracy is so rampant for this game is that people aren't willing to pay £30 for a game that will most likely run terribly on their PC. People are more likely to accept the horrendous frame rate if they don't actually pay for the game. I bought Crysis, but only because I had upgraded my PC about a month before it came out.

  • anomagnus #5 4 years ago

    while i'm not disputing the fact that piracy is a problem in the pc world, i'm be highly doubtful that it is the sole reason for the the failure of crysis.

    i'd have loved to have played it, but i imply didnt have a computer that would do it justice. When i have a new pc, then i'll buy it.

    While i applaud their ability, the crytek team may have been better served creating a game that would work well on all machines

  • rudedudejude #6 4 years ago

    If they implemented Awesome Muliplayer with keycodes it would cut down piracy quite a bit.

    A single player only game is an easy target.

  • jaywalker3010 Verified Mastering Manager, Square Enix #7 4 years ago

    Solution. 1984..

    Make all users login to play the games, accounts created with username/email tracking. Exes not given on discs but downloaded from servers. Random check online for the exe. No more CD checks!

    If found to be pirating then account closed, user has to grovel to explain why it appears they pirating.

    Simple and effective
    Edited by 1 at 30/04/08 @ 09:55

  • nickthegun #8 4 years ago

    So.......steam then?

  • jaywalker3010 Verified Mastering Manager, Square Enix #9 4 years ago

    Hmm `steam like` i guess.. iron out the kinks etc..

    Am sick of hearing people whinge about copy protection, if they are legit whats the problem.. i totally understand the CD check is a pain, hence if we could get rid of that and replace with online check thats fine by me.

    Edited by 1 at 30/04/08 @ 09:58

  • DB2k #10 4 years ago

    aye cause xbox 360 games are never pirated on the internet are they...

  • jamespo #11 4 years ago

    It's society's problem:

    If you're the sort of person who walks around in sportswear and/or primark and eats beans and sausages from a can you won't think twice about pirating a PC game.

  • Wyrm #12 4 years ago

    Beans and sausages from a can + toast + grated cheese = delicious


    Crytek should maybe have made a better game that is playable on more than about 10 peoples PCs.

  • jaywalker3010 Verified Mastering Manager, Square Enix #13 4 years ago

    jamespo -

    Ask anyone who works with me and they'll tell you i have great ideas how to handle them, but apparently they would breach civil and human rights, bah
    Edited by 1 at 30/04/08 @ 10:11

  • jaywalker3010 Verified Mastering Manager, Square Enix #14 4 years ago

    Wyrm -

    Still doesnt give people the right to `steal` the game just because they `protest` about its spec requirements!!

  • Talha #15 4 years ago

    What are the sales figures for Crysis anyway? Because I don't find other PC developers (Valve included) complaining about piracy.

    I think the fact that even today there are few computers in this world capable of running Crysis properly has a lot to do with it. I am not defending piracy here, but I think Eraysor's argument applies here.

  • jaywalker3010 Verified Mastering Manager, Square Enix #16 4 years ago

    Eraysor -

    Thats what demos are for? check it works before you buy it?

    I've heard all the excuses on our official forums where people say `i only pirated it to see how it works, but got so hooked playing it thru i finished it in a few day so dont need to buy it now .. etc etc blah.`oh and the classic `i didnt find a demo, or there wasnt a demo so i stole it anyway`

    Yes not all games have demo's, but if they are able to pirate the game, then they have the INTERNET so can easily read reviews/reports about people saying if it works or not properly



    Edited by 1 at 30/04/08 @ 10:20

  • MaxiSleep #17 4 years ago

    Crysis was actually a very average game in pretty wrappings. Unfortunately the wrappings were unusable on even high powered machines if you wanted to play at your LCD's native resolution. In the old days of CRT resolution was nowhere near as big a problem as it is on lcd.

  • Killerbee #18 4 years ago

    I don't want to dismiss piracy as a problem for PC gaming, but in the case of Crysis I'd bet that the far greater barrier to them getting bigger sales is the fact that the game is so demanding in terms of PC hardware.

    There are loads of PC gamers out there, but very few of them have the sort of cutting edge gaming rig necessary to play Crysis on High or Very High settings, and I really wouldn't blame anyone for giving the game a miss if their system is clearly incapable of running it at that level, since the graphics are a major part of the appeal. Yes, Low and Medium graphical settings were available, but they looked rubbish.

    As a PC gamer, I do value the creative contribution of developers like Crytek who really strive to push the boundaries of PC graphics forwards and I enjoyed Crysis a lot. Problem is, I did spend £830 on a new gaming PC recently (not just for Crysis, but it was certainly in my mind when ordering it) and not everyone is in a position to do that.

  • ianegg #19 4 years ago

    Nobody's stealing anything. By that logic it's stealing to rent or borrow a game from a friend.

  • hiddenranbir #20 4 years ago

    That'd dumb Crytek. Dumb reason. Do what Stardock do: REWARD THE CUSTOMER!

    Have patches and updates requiring registration of game, sorted.

    Sins of a Solar Empire is best selling RTS atm, no protection on it. Pirate v1.0 if you want, but online and getting patches and big free content updates? Yeah, register the game. It works, Sins is selling well!

  • Olemak #21 4 years ago

    Steam distribution. Even boxed copies with steam functionality wired in; that should solve quite a bit of the piracy problem.

    But in a weird sort of way, I see this as good news. The CryTech are incredibly skilled at making awsome game engines. If they focus that talent and energy on making stuff that will run on the consoles, we'll not only get more competition for the Unreal III engine and other established platforms, it is also likely that the crytech would be able to squeeze the juice out of the so-called "next gen" a lot faster - both systems still have a lot to offer in terms of untapped power.

    Personally, I'd like to see CryTech develop a PS3 specific engine which really gets that alien architecture and draws every scrap of power from it, and makes it available for other developers to licence. Could make for some games it would not be possible to realize on the 360 (unleash the power of teh cell!), and everybody will agree that it is a good thing if the PS3 can be all it can be et cetera.

  • jaywalker3010 Verified Mastering Manager, Square Enix #22 4 years ago

    ianegg -

    You dont rent pc titles, well not from blockbuster etc. so thats a mute point there.

    As for `borrowing`, thats a different thing, if you both running at same time then yes you are in theory in breach of the EULA since most games will state that only 1 copy can be ran simultaneously etc, and the copy protection system if disc based would have had to be `got around` to play it. i know of SOME games that allow a second client to run etc

    Obviously if you borrow the game and have the discs and ya the only one running it then obviously thats fine, the consumer can do what they like with the code once they've bought it, within the rules of the EULA.

    As i said before the whole piracy debate is totally ignored by a lot of people as they DONT see it as a problem or an issue. So talking to those type of people is a waste of bits on the net.

  • TheBiGW #23 4 years ago

    I would love to have played this game, but my PC is simply not up to the job. They haven't sold the game engine to other developers like iD/EPIC did with the Quake/Unreal engines and so I'm not as tempted to pay the cash to upgrade my machine. It is just one game at the end of the day, regardless of how pretty it is.

  • FooAtari #24 4 years ago

    I do not beleive piracy to be the problem it is made out to be. Sure it's much more of an issue on consoles and I'm sure it does hurt sales. Why people don't realize that pirating games may lead to having no games to pirate is beyond me. But at the same time one pirated game does not equal one lost sale. People will pirate a game when it's free that they might never have paid for.

    But the other problems are performance related. I have a high end system, which at the time of Crysis release was about as good as you could buy and I could not run the game on full graphics (DX10) at 1680 x 1050 at anything above 18fps or so. I had to turn down some effects. True the game looked still looked stunning, but it doesn't look good for people with lower hardware. Worse the 9800 cards are not much of an improvement over the 8800 so the game still cant be run on max unless you start looking at SLI. People want to play something close to the screen shots on the back of the box, not a graphically butchered version of the game. Game development costs to much to just only cater to the high end market.

    Second problem is integrated graphics. They need to stop being shit. Motherboard manufactures need to start installing graphics hardware than can at least make a half decent attempt at running the latest games. And they also need to be truthful when selling multimedia/familly PC's. 9/10 these will not run any recent games, which many claim they do.

    PC gaming is just in a bit disorganized at the moment, but imo it wouldn't take much to improve the situation.

    And don't give me the WoW argument. A developer isn't going to care how much money WoW makes if they can't make anything on their own games. The PC is my platform of choice, but I still think a lot of improvements can be made.

  • Headache #25 4 years ago

    "We are suffering currently from the huge piracy that is encompassing Crysis."

    Shouldn't that be "We are suffering currently from the lack of PC's able to run Crysis."

    Making the latest, greatest, most graphically cutting edge games is a nice bragging point, but if people can't run the damn thing on their PC's they aren't going to buy it.

    All this is showing is that there is a corrolation between people who spend a truck load of money to keep on the cutting edge of gaming hardware and those that pirate games... wait that can't be right, can it?

  • ianegg #26 4 years ago

    @jaywalker3010

    That's true, but like the whole debacle with music downloading it's not actually stealing. It's a completely different problem that has to be solved creatively, as in hiddenranbir's example of SoaSE or Valve's approach.

    Nobody is stealing anything here, and nobody is actually "pirating" either - apart from the people who are stupid enough to actually pay for illegal copies of games/cds/dvds. The definition of "pirating" has obviously changed in recent years, but it still has far worse connotations than the actual problem at had.

    I don't know if you follow the news about the MPAA, but they're a perfect example of how crying about people "stealing" and not adapting is more detrimental than the "piracy" itself.
    Edited by 2 at 30/04/08 @ 10:45

  • kangarootoo #27 4 years ago

    The question people should be asking themselves here is what possible motive could Cevat Yerli possibly have for saying anything other than the truth. Everyone is all so full of disbelief, but there is nothing I have read here that doesn't make perfect sense.

    Fir off, the motives that drive people who pirate games is not relevant, at all. I know that sounds a bit odd, but for the discussion at hand its just not.

    The bare fact is that piracy is much more prevelant on the PC platform. When making business decisions about how to get the best return for their investment, Crytek will look at how much money they lose to piracy

    Now why people pirate PC games might be of interest to the extent that they chat about it over lunch, but when examining their cashflow it ceases to be of relevance. Crytek are in the business of making games for profit. They are not in the business of understanding and correcting the ills of society.

    The conversation might have gone like this.

    "We lose loads of money to piracy on out PC games. We need a solution."
    "I wonder why people pirate PC games so much."
    "Who cares. If we start making console games, we will stop losing so much dosh."
    "Good idea. Job done. Lets eat."

    No doubt some people will level accusations of greed at Crytek for this decision. Such people are idiots.

    The absolute truth here is that we did it to ourselves. All that tosh about "we wouldn't pirate it if the tech requirements are lower" is just apologist nonsense (and tbh makes the writer look either simple or deluded). If PC games didn't get pirated so much, PC gaming wouldn't be dying (its not dead anytime soon, but it is in decline, fact).

  • Skeletor #28 4 years ago

    No big loss here. I'm not willing to pay full price for a game that I will have to play on low settings eventually. Also, I really don't think that Crysis is the big revolution that Crytek was talking about prior to its release. Gameplay is solid but nothing special. Stalker on the other hand IS that revolution and it doesn't even need such a killer machine to run nicely.
    The truth hurts - competition on the PC when it comes to FPS is so brutal that only the best survive. Not so much on consoles where FPS games are a rather fresh thing. However I wouldn't be surprised to see a very similar situation there when the next gen of consoles are released in a couple of years. Looking forward to Stalker - Clear Sky which I WILL buy.

  • Yeevle #29 4 years ago

    Sick of FPS games anyway, go crying to the consoles for big money. Leave the PC for the indie developers for more originality in games.

    Just to be clear, I'm against piracy, I'm just sick of FPS games.
    Edited by 1 at 30/04/08 @ 13:03

  • miiiguel #30 4 years ago

    Stop defending thiefs please, there's no excuse.

  • jaywalker3010 Verified Mastering Manager, Square Enix #31 4 years ago

    If someone is playing the game and havent paid us for it, then its pirated/stealing. You have a product you are using you have not paid the owner for. Theres no other way to explain that away as NOT stealing/pirating.

    You dont walk into a car showroom and drive off with a vehicle cos you want it. Yes you can get a test drive to `check it out` but if you drove off without paying you'd be arrested for Grand Theft Auto (sorry had to get a pun in there)

    Simple analogy i know but you get what i am getting at.

    I think its safe to say MOST people think its okay to play games without paying for it for some reason or other. In a small way its actually nice to know your games wanted enough to be pirated, imagine if you spent 2 years working on a game only to find its not cared about enough for people to crack it :)

    What is it they say about arguing on the internet?

  • Yaz #32 4 years ago

    Olemak wrote: "Personally, I'd like to see CryTech develop a PS3 specific engine which really gets that alien architecture and draws every scrap of power from it, and makes it available for other developers to licence"

    I think they're heading in the right direction with their game engine CryEngine 2, which is being ported to the PS3 and 360. From the beginning, they have spoken about optimising their engine for both 360 and PS3, therefore trying to get the best out of each.

    "Could make for some games it would not be possible to realize on the 360.."

    The consoles are too close in terms of power for that to happen, but I really do look forward to seeing the results of CryEngine2 based games running on both consoles. :)
    Edited by 1 at 30/04/08 @ 11:06

  • Talha #33 4 years ago

    For the record, I HAVE played Crysis at 14 FPS on my Core 2 Duo / 8800 GTS equipped system. Despite everything it is a stunning achievement. I even enjoyed the latter alien levels. I am re-starting it at the veteral level.

    Point is, Crysis' failings are no greater or lower than any other top-notch FPS. That above-average shooting gameplay is topped by hitherto unseen graphics and a stunning (sort of) open world. What more do people want? And for heaven's sake, this is Crytek's only SECOND game - why do we expect Valve-level storytelling from them is beyond me.

    What saddens me is that this effectively cancels out the further two games in the planned trilogy, and with it, Crytek's chance to address the complaints hurled at it. It is a sad moment for PC gaming (for whatever reason), make no mistake about it.

  • UncleLou #34 4 years ago

    Nobody's stealing anything. By that logic it's stealing to rent or borrow a game from a friend.


    Please. Just don't. Pretty, pretty please.

  • TriggerHippie #35 4 years ago

    You wouldn't steal a carrrrr!

  • Subquest #36 4 years ago

    Crysis was actually a very average game in pretty wrappings

    pfff, very average my arse

    Don't know why it would be so hard to port to console. It supported the 360 pad out of the box. Throw in a little autoaim, set the detail to medium and you're ready to go.

  • tripitaka #37 4 years ago

    Crysis sold over a million copies AFAIK.

    And I would guess that there are a lot more 360s out there than there are Crysis - capable PCs.

    I wonder how many of the people that pirated it found that it ran like crap and deleted it after 5 mins?

  • symmetry #38 4 years ago

    Well blimey, you've all gone on about piracy but when I read this news all I could think about was :-

    YAY! Crytek are going to be doing console games! W00T!

  • UncleLou #39 4 years ago

    "I wonder how many of the people that pirated it found that it ran like crap and deleted it after 5 mins? "


    There was a demo, prior to the release, you know. Not much need to download several GBs just to find out it doesn't run.

  • Nithron #40 4 years ago

    Hmmm...

    I always notice that companies complain constantly about piracy, despite having copyright protection(Starforce, Securom, whatever) attached to their products.

    They never seem to put two and two together and realise that these programs simply do not work, and make the end-user's experience arbitrarily shittier.

    Also, Jamespo: I don't think you were being serious, but you kinda hit on a point here. The kind of people you describe would probably not care about pirating games because they can't afford them anyway.

    And finally, piracy is not theft. Everyone peddles out the whole "piracy is theft" line like it automatically summons a magical high horse for them to sit on so they can look down upon all the dirty unwashed masses of software pirates. Technically it's copyright infringement, not theft, as nobody else is deprived of the product you have acquired without payment. If Yogi The Swedish Pirate downloads Crysis tomorrow, there is not some poor little boy across the other side of the world that's had his game magically taken away from him through the evil power of bittorrent. Thus, it is not technically theft.

    Copyright Infringement doesn't sound so bad to your average person though, so the companies involved like to call it theft to try and attach a social stigma to it. This doesn't make it actually the case.

    To use the apparently universal car analogy: It's like walking into a car dealership, finding one you like, then pressing a button to create an exact duplicate to it and driving away in your newly cloned car.
    Edited by 1 at 30/04/08 @ 11:33

  • paketep #41 4 years ago

    Yeah, sure, piracy my ass.

    What the hell did they expect with those requirements?.

    If they want to sell more since any POS game sells a lot on consoles, just say so. Don't blame piracy.

  • UncleLou #42 4 years ago

    What the hell did they expect with those requirements?

    That people who have the specs to run it and enjoy it buy it, instead of downloading it? Read the article, ffs.

  • Feanor #43 4 years ago

    Shouldn't that be "We are suffering currently from the lack of PC's able to run Crysis."

    No, it shouldn't. The Crysis guys are well aware how many people with great PCs are torrenting this game.

  • jaywalker3010 Verified Mastering Manager, Square Enix #44 4 years ago

    Nithron -

    Hehe point taken about the definitions, but as you said people have even less care for Copyright infringement so by giving the theft tag gives it a bit of an edge.

    Simple definition means we not getting paid for the work we've done.

    Oh and about the car thing. Clone or not it still a `product` you dont own :) China is king of `cloning` :) its still copyright theft ;)

    Its not legal! :)
    Edited by 2 at 30/04/08 @ 11:40

  • Ceatlan #45 4 years ago

    @ianegg

    It beggers belief that people don't believe that downloading music, games or videos they haven't paid for or got the owners permission to use is not stealing. Under what possible belief system is it not stealing ?

    If you walked into a shop and walked out with a boxed copy in your pocket without paying for it, would that not be stealing ? How is that any different to downloading off the internet.

    The fact that people have convinced themselves that this is different, doesn't stop it from being theft. Yes the whole content production industry does (and some parts are) need to get creative about how to address it, but again that doesn't stop it from being stealing. Moaning that the industry is not embracing the technology fast enough for you, doesn't change the fact it is stealing.

    You can have valid discussions about what the correct way for the industry and public as a whole to move forward is, but you cannot change the facts that taking anything without consent is stealing.

  • Katsumoto #46 4 years ago

    I'm sure selling over a million copies used to be an achievement. In fact, it's more than EA predicted. Hardly a "failure" really.

  • Katsumoto #47 4 years ago

    p.s. I believe the legal argument is that under the Theft Act 1968 it's not stealing, because you're not "permanently depriving" anyone of anything.

    But morally, it's stealing, really.

  • jaywalker3010 Verified Mastering Manager, Square Enix #48 4 years ago

    Katsumoto -

    A theft act from 1968? wow did that cover things like wirelesses and world cup winner booklets ;)

    I think an act from 40 years ago is a little unable to cover the modern day :)
    Edited by 1 at 30/04/08 @ 11:52

  • des #49 4 years ago

    My humble opinion:

    1.Pc piracy is ridiculously easy-download a game,apply crack,and go
    360 is also pirated to hell and back,but you need to open it,loose warranty,buy discs,and most important fear of being banned from live.
    2.Integrated graphics in laptops,it is a bit pathetic that people can't play 4 years old games on them(yes intel i am looking at you),of course you can't upgrade them=fail
    3.Extreme hardware requirements
    4.Marketing,what pc game has halo3,gta 4 style marketing?
    5.Loyalty,console gamers are much more loyal bunch,with pc it's always intel-amd,nvidia-ati,lol he has geforce 8400...

  • miiiguel #50 4 years ago

    "permanently depriving" anyone of anything."
    okeee..., so is it "borrowing" ? I mean, one can put it back, and it'd make it ok. In 1968 I doubt that intelectual digital property existed.

    Anyway, I've quit PC gaming long time ago, but I still and always depise piracy. Some of you (no judging, though) believe that piracy is not so bad, and such (PC gamers, I presume), please..., do continue, and you'll kill it for good. Like it or not, this buisness is to make money, this is not the "comune of Paris" or "Moscow 1917".
    Edited by 1 at 30/04/08 @ 11:57

  • Katsumoto #51 4 years ago

    @ Jay

    Maybe, but i'm afraid the Theft Act 1968 is still the relevant law in England & Wales!

    There are, of course, other laws to cover "Cyber-crime", which is what is relevant here. People are just being very pedantic.

  • Katsumoto #52 4 years ago

    I mean, the current law regarding Offences Against the Person is from the 1860s but that still applies :p! Some relevant case law regarding assault comes from the 17th century!

    And yes, I realise hitting someone then was much the same as hitting someone now, I'm just saying just because a law is a few decades old doesn't mean it's not in practice. The TA 1968 is the most recent law on theft.

  • tripitaka #53 4 years ago

    Copyright Infringement != Theft

    You're not preventing anyone else from purchasing that product by torrenting it yourself, and there is in no way a 1-1 correlation between pirated downloads and lost sales.

    I'm not saying it's right, but it is clearly a different offence.

  • Garulon #54 4 years ago

    "You're not preventing anyone else from purchasing that product by torrenting it yourself, and there is in no way a 1-1 correlation between pirated downloads and lost sales."

    You're depriving the owner of his property, the fact it's not a physcial property is irrelevant. Apples grow on trees every year, I can still steal apples.

    Jeez I can't beleive we can have two threads where poeple try to weasel out of the fact pirates are parasitical scum. Stealing a loaf of bread to eat I can sort of understand. Stealing entertainment? That's low.

  • Metalfish #55 4 years ago

    Give up UncleLou, they're not worth it!

  • ianegg #56 4 years ago

    Downloading a game is more akin to photocopying a book at a library than stealing a car. Stealing is an old word that defines the act of taking something that isn't rightfully yours, such that the actual owner becomes deprived of it.

    If you take a car from a showroom, the car will no longer be in the showroom.

    Photocopying a book may be illegal, but that doesn't mean you're stealing it.

    I'm not defending "piracy" here, just pointing out that it's not as simple as some people seem to think it is. We need new laws rather than trying to shoehorn in old rules that have no relevence.

    Downloading games/music/dvds/porn is wrong, but it's not theft.

  • jaywalker3010 Verified Mastering Manager, Square Enix #57 4 years ago

    My faith has definitely been restored a bit by this thread. In the past been so overwhelmed with the almost angry posts i've gotten over defending our right to protect our property etc. Its really nice to see there are people out there who get the fact its wrong.

    Oh about old laws still being in effect is it still legal to shoot a scotsman in york as long as he holding a bow and arrow? :)
    Edited by 1 at 30/04/08 @ 12:14

  • Nithron #58 4 years ago

    Okay, okay, Garulon... Parasitical scum? Isn't that taking it a bit too far?

    Anyway, the other point worth noting is that when someone downloads a game, it doesn't mean they would have paid for it. The idea that one pirated game = one lost sale is clearly not true, as for a lot of pirates, the alternative to downloading the game in question is not having it at all. Think of the poor primark-wearing, sausage-guzzling example jamespo made earlier on, who simply cannot afford to buy them. You could argue that they should not have the game at all, and yes, in terms of traditional physical property nobody should have something they cannot afford, but thanks to digital distribution of goods, now people can have something they previously could not have afforded, and nobody actually gets hurt.

    Somehow people have decided this is morally wrong, but I don't see how someone gaining entertainment without harming anyone could possibly be considered "wrong".

    On the other hand of course there's also plenty of people downloading games when they could afford it and they're just tight bastards. These people really are costing the industry money and therefore are dickheads.
    Edited by 1 at 30/04/08 @ 12:16

  • Mr_Dodger #59 4 years ago

    I have plenty of PC games with either no or unobtrusive copy protection. The ones I have problems with are games where the protection literally stopped me using my purchase until I found a no-CD crack.

    And pirates don't have any of those hassles, just like movie pirates don't have to watch ridiculous "you wouldn't steal a car" videos. When protection (which has no benefit because it's cracked often in hours) impacts end experience, that's when it's a problem, and why so many people rail against it.

    As a good example of a PC success take Sins Of A Solar Empire. Very scalable, and no protection. Guess what? Great sales with many people saying they bought it mainly to support the no-protection stance. So it can clearly work.

  • jaywalker3010 Verified Mastering Manager, Square Enix #60 4 years ago

    [link url=http://d ictionary.reference.com/browse/theft
    ]http://di ctionary.reference.com/browse/t...[/link]

    Definition of theft - taking property without consent. That means downloading is theft as you not exactly gonna ask us here if you can take it are you :)

  • Katsumoto #61 4 years ago

    :) Don't worry, i wasn't defending it in any way, I was only explaining the pedantic legal argument that is often made.

    The dictionary classes it as Theft, English Law doesn't. It does classify it as illegal, however, so the point is moot.

    For the purposes of every-day conversation, it is Theft.

    p.s. i thought it was welsh people we were allowed to shoot? ;) But no, the TA 1968 is a teeny bit more relevant than THAT old law :)
    Edited by 2 at 30/04/08 @ 12:24

  • jaywalker3010 Verified Mastering Manager, Square Enix #62 4 years ago

    Totally agree we need proper laws with actual punishments for people doing it. Right now its so easy to do without any `noticeable` detriment to the person doing it, so guess what, they do it again.

  • miiiguel #63 4 years ago

    "Anyway, the other point worth noting is that when someone downloads a game, it doesn't mean they would have paid for it."
    But if definetly should mean, that if they didn't pay for someone's work they shouldn't enjoy it. Ffs, if I don't pay to the cleaning lady who cleans my house am I not stealing (insert any lexic here, which doesn't make it less disgusting) from her?

    If I don't want to pay her, I just have to live with a messy house, fact. If one doesn't want to pay for a piece of software, fine, don't. Just don't use it.
    Edited by 1 at 30/04/08 @ 12:23

  • jaywalker3010 Verified Mastering Manager, Square Enix #64 4 years ago

    Its a catch 22 problem for us. Yes i agree i dont like intrusive protection systems, and the only people it seems to affect are the casual gamers who sometimes inadvertantly have a problem for no `illegal reason`

    However if we release a game with no protection theres a fear that it would just be copied and that would it.

    So we have to do SOMETHING for the sake of IP protection at the very least.

  • tripitaka #65 4 years ago

    "Downloading a game is more akin to photocopying a book at a library than stealing a car. Stealing is an old word that defines the act of taking something that isn't rightfully yours, such that the actual owner becomes deprived of it. "

    Nail. On. Head.

    Certainly not condoning it, just pointing out the rather obvious difference - which also impacts on how much of an impact it actually has on sales.

    I'm certainly not saying people should be allowed or are right to download and play games for free. But if these people are not prepared to pay for the content, then you're not losing sales.

    Obviously the truth is somewhere in between - the difficulty is quantifying the actual impact this has on sales.

  • Katsumoto #66 4 years ago

    Put everything on Steam! Hurrah Problem Solved.

  • tripitaka #67 4 years ago

    I seem to remember that pirated versions of HL2 were doing the rounds.

    Whereas I brought it, activated it online and told it REMEMBER MY DETAILS, then moved to a house where I had no internet connection.

    Needless to say, after a month it suddenly 'forgot' my log-in, and was left unable to play a game that I had payed £35 for.

    I've still never got round to completing it since.

  • tripitaka #68 4 years ago

    Alternatively, consider Trackmania on steam - I downloaded that at the weekend (it's free), but it completely refuses to work. Just crashes with a WER dialog box as soon as I try to launch the game.

    Fine for a freebie, but imagine if I'd paid £30 for that...

  • Nithron #69 4 years ago

    Miiiguel: None of these analogies make sense when it comes to software piracy because it's not a physical entity or service.

    In this instance, you have a random, average guy, let's say Joe Blogs. Joe Blogs works on minimum wage so he can get himself through university and has no real money to speak of.

    Joe Blogs is bored, and downloads a game that he couldn't afford anyway. But doing so, he gets to enjoy the game, but the company making the game has not lost anything at all. They have not been deprived of a "potential sale" because he could not have bought it anyway. They have lost no profits. However, Mr Blogs has gained a game.

    So what you're saying is, a situation in which nobody loses anything, but where someone gains something, is morally reprehensible. What?

    To use your cleaning lady analogy, it's actually more like you building your own cleaning lady from spare vaccuum parts and some leftover props from the Terminator movie and making her clean your flat, because you can't afford to pay a real one.
    Your cleaning lady doesn't lose out, and you gain a cleaner. What's the problem?

  • tripitaka #70 4 years ago

    I'd be inclined to say if you can't afford it, you shouldn't get the content.
    There are plenty of ways to entertain yourself for free :)

  • miiiguel #71 4 years ago

    I want to make it clear, that I'm not judging you. I just find it very, very strange that ppl who come to these foruns, who most likely have intelectual jobs, think that pirating software has some excuses.

    This last one - some ppl wouldn't have the money to pay for it, so they wouldn't buy it anyway. Wrong!
    Should we go to the stores with a copy of our IRS ? Than the clerck would analize if we can afford it or not? I mean... !!!
    So I have the money, 'cos I have a job and shit..., so I have to pay, and a student don't? I'd - and anyone - will say (and they do, and that what made use reach this stage): Sod it! I also don't pay!

  • EPhillips #72 4 years ago

    How about this:

    People with super powerfull PCs Tend to be early adopters and more techy

    AND

    Those who are more techy tend to pirate more

  • tripitaka #73 4 years ago

    I'm pretty sure that when the game launched they said that people wouldn't be able to play on the highest settings.

    So, given that part of your target audience is PEOPLE IN THE FUTURE, that's bound to have some impact on sales in the present...

    Looks pretty and all, but make a game that scales nicely down to current\older hardware and you might notice a few more people buy it.
    Half Life 2 being a great example - that engine scales up and down very nicely. Looked great to me when I got it on (for the time) moderate hardware, and still looks great on my newer current set up.

  • Jigglybean #74 4 years ago

    The reason why Crysis didnt sell was simply down to the fact it required a beast of a machine to play on. Something many gamers just do not own.

    Lets just point towards Sins of a Solar Empire. 250,000 sales, no copy protection, PC only. enough said.

  • UncleLou #75 4 years ago

    p.s. I believe the legal argument is that under the Theft Act 1968 it's not stealing, because you're not "permanently depriving" anyone of anything.

    But morally, it's stealing, really.

    Well, legally as well. It's closely related. You're permanently depriving the copyright owner not of the object itself, but of the option to sell it on - to you, for example. In times of infinite reproducability of content as well as data carrier and material costs of a boxed copy of a few cents, the difference between stealing something in a shop and downloading it is becoming rather petty, anyhow.

  • UncleLou #76 4 years ago

    The reason why Crysis didnt sell was simply down to the fact it required a beast of a machine to play on. Something many gamers just do not own.

    Lets just point towards Sins of a Solar Empire. 250,000 sales, no copy protection, PC only. enough said.


    Missing the point. Crysis sold a lot more than that.

  • Skeletor #77 4 years ago

    @tripitaka

    "I'd be inclined to say if you can't afford it, you shouldn't get the content.
    There are plenty of ways to entertain yourself for free :)"

    But devs and publishers complain about the LOSS of money and not about "evil poor people" who dare to enjoy the same entertainment as the paying masses.
    There simply isn't such a big market for a title like Crysis on the PC anymore - fact, not an interpretation.

  • Vivid #78 4 years ago

    I go to PC LAN meets occaisionally and piracy is rife at these events. I've even seen people look genuinely confused when I reached for original, authentic game disks. I have some sympathy for using cracked copies as demos but if you plan to carry on playing a game or leave it on your machine, then I think that you're duty bound to buy a copy. If a game is rubbish delete it and then move on. That way companies that develop good games get the financial rewards and those that develop poor games either raise their standards or go to the wall. That's moral, ethical and even bloody Darwinian.

    I work as a designer myself and pretending that stealing IP as copyright infringement isn't theft is a specious argument. If you're going to get the benefit of using something then the producer and designer of the product deserves to be paid for it. Your illegal copy might not have physically cost you or the rights holder anything to produce but someone has to pay for all of the programers, designers, developers, rent, coffee and amusing posters saying 'You Want it When?!'.

    From my limited experience PC piracy is far more widespread than console piracy so if in a few years the PC community is left in the smouldering ruins of the market saying 'What the hell happened there?' I will be first in the queue to beat them to death with their own hard drives.

  • dsmx #79 4 years ago

    The people who pirate the most also tend to be the ones who also spend the most on games. Theft is the intent to permanently deprive someone of an item, digital piracy you are not permanently depriving anyone of an item so it isn't theft. For those that say that's pedantic, the law is pedantic it has to be or lawyers find loopholes.

  • Skeletor #80 4 years ago

    "I go to PC LAN meets occaisionally and piracy is rife at these events. I've even seen people look genuinely confused when I reached for original, authentic game disks."

    You install the game at the Lan meet? Quite frankly, doesn't sound like you've been to many of them.

    "...if in a few years the PC community is left in the smouldering ruins of the market saying 'What the hell happened there?' I will be first in the queue to beat them to death with their own hard drives."

    Seeing how good Valve and Blizzard are doing and considering brilliant games like Trackmania and Stalker that you won't find on any console your apocalyptic visions might be a "little bit" exaggerated. Also, Crytek have never said that they drop development for PC...just the exclusives.

    Edited by 1 at 30/04/08 @ 13:42

  • Katsumoto #81 4 years ago

    Well, i'll go with unclelou on this one, as I suspect he's the only actual lawyer on this thread :D

  • Vivid #82 4 years ago

    "You install the game at the Lan meet? Quite frankly, doesn't sound like you've been to many of them."

    I didn't say that I install them but virtually every PC game I own, that isn’t on Steam (Battlefield, Trackmania, FEAR, Quake 4, etc), requires a legitimate disk in the drive to play. Or weren’t you aware of this?

    "Seeing how good Valve and Blizzard are doing and considering brilliant games like Trackmania and Stalker that you won't find on any console your apocalyptic visions might be a "little bit" exaggerated."

    Two of those three examples require authenticated online accounts to run, which has surely been the most successful mechanism to prevent piracy yet. They are excellent developers as well but I don’t think Valve’s sales would be anything like as robust without Steam. I’m sure that PC gaming is not going to be wiped out entirely but as more and more developers focus on consoles as the priority you get once excellent games like UT turning into the train crash that was UT3. Reading between the lines Crytek’s next engine and game will be written for consoles first and PCs a distant second.

  • skillian #83 4 years ago

    I just find it very, very strange that ppl who come to these foruns, who most likely have intelectual jobs, think that pirating software has some excuses.

    You shouldn't be so surprised. Take a look in the TV section of the EG forums, loads of people are pirating TV shows (perhaps even some of the people doing the admonishing here) but there is none of the outrage you see when pirating games is brought up. It is exactly the same situation, but people justify it in their own way so it doesn't seem wrong. That's exactly what is happening here.

  • UncleLou #84 4 years ago

    There simply isn't such a big market for a title like Crysis on the PC anymore - fact, not an interpretation.


    No, not fact, pure speculation. They're not complaining about low sales as such. They're complaining about frankly frightening download numbers, compared to sales. There are lots of indicators that the PC games market isn't smaller if you compare pure "games played" numbers, as opposed to "games sold" numbers. Bioshock had a working copy protection (at east for a while) and lo and behold, the sales matched the 360 version. Multiplayer games sell as good, if not better. And so on and so forth.

  • rowsdower #85 4 years ago

    So Crysis sold over a million copies and was only properly playable on about 5% of the PC markets' machines. Add to that the fact that it was essentially a graphical update for FarCry and a pretty rudimentary linear FPS and you have a game that was so much missed potential. Crytek teched themselves out of the market and are now whining because people didn't want to spend £1050 for a new PC and the game. The reason they are 'dumbing down' their design to work on the PS3 and 360 is that that technology is actually attainable for everyone, not just the gaming elite. PC owners now no longer have to consider themselves in the 8800 or bust crowd. You can have a 7 in your nvidia card number and still be viable.

    Personally, I think this moaning from Crytek is an infantile huff. Piracy affected them, well big whoop, it affects everyone else too. You're not to the only ones suffering. And let us not forget, you shifted over a MILLION units. For a PC game! You're not ever going to get WoW figures with a generic FPS. Never. Stop thinking you are. PC gaming has been lead down a garden path with the profitability of WoW. PC gaming has never been as profitable as WoW is. It can't be. The market is too dense, the requirements for keeping up are too high.

    Games like Sins of a Solar Empire and essentially everything on Steam are the poster boys for PC gaming, the accountants running these big companies like Crytek and Epic just don't know it. The digital model WORKS. The "we'll make a game so technologically advanced that no-one will be able to play it at a native LCD resolution without having a £1000 upgrade" one doesn't. Digital transactions stop piracy, speed up updates, ensure product safety and provide an infrastructure and security for future purchases. If you want to get sales, stick it on Steam, or Impulse. People can't pirate it from there (not without jumping through hoops, and anyone willing to go through all the work to get that working was never going to be a buyer anyway) and you'll make your money that way.

    Also, pirates were never going to be your market. People don't pirate a game because it's easier than playing the demo. They simply aren't going to be a buyer of your product. Stop trying to sell to them. Companies like Crytek look to consoles as if they are piracy free Mecca's, with the streets paved with gold. They claim that a pirated game is a missed sale. What about second-hand game traders like GameStop and Game? The only sale you're getting there is the initial one, after that people aren't giving you money and still using your product. Pre-owned games can get traded many times over (having worked for one of the aforementioned companies, I can vouch for this) and they are all MISSED sales. Your new game isn't getting bought again and you've lost 50 or 60 bucks on every pre-owned sale. How is this different from piracy? It's even worse because rather than getting it for free and using bittorrent, people are paying a games vendor for your game and you're receiving nothing! It's legalised piracy! And yet you won't go after them will you? You won't huff and complain that GameStop are stealing all your profit, which they ARE! No, go after the kids, stamp your little feet and claim that no-one understands you. Put on some Linkin Park and cry in the corner. Paint your room black. No-one will care. We're all playing our legally bought and non-pirated copies of Team Fortress 2 on Steam. We don't worry about pirates or a cheater filled multiplayer like you do.

    Suck it up Crytek, your game sold a MILLION copies. And yet you consider it a failure.

    IT wasn't the failure. You were.

  • Nallen #86 4 years ago

    As I said on RPS about this very subject, you people trying to claim you are in some way entitled to pirate games make me fucking sick. Clearly you know that despite the pointless arguments over semantics you are stealing in every possible moral meaning of the term and the raft of crap you people use to justify it is ball crunching.

    If you go in to shop and take something of the shelf and walk out, or go in to a supermarket and eat the food without paying for it what possible water does this asinine 'I wouldn't have paid for it regardless' argument hold? A stone cold zero. You stole, whether it's an apple or an IP, shoplifting or copyright infringement.

    People with this crap about 'it's the fault of the system requirements' are on a different planet as well. Does it occur to you that games developers have actual figures to compare the sales to the number of copies in use? They're not upset because no one plays the game, they're upset because half the people that are playing it didn't pay.

    To summarise for the too stupid to read [tl;dr] crowd: Regardless of your excuse what you're doing is wrong and illegal. Time to man up and admit it.

  • penhalion #87 4 years ago

    CryTek simply realised that they can make 10 times the money on consoles. As some have pointed out here. Their games don't run on standard PC rigs and no-one in PC land bothers to upgrade for a game anymore. Piracy is just an excuse to move into the console market.

  • miiiguel #88 4 years ago

    I just can't believe that you educated guys, seem to actually believe piracy in the PC world in not a big deal and can be somehow understandable, due to:
    - people beeing poor (again, how do we measure that? IRS tags in every gamer?).
    - it's not actually stealing, because it's not an apple, it's 0s and 1s.
    - they (devs; publishers) have nice cars, anyway...
    - power to the people.

  • skillian #89 4 years ago

    @nallen:

    1. There are very few if any people here saying they should be entitled to pirate games. Reasons are different to excuses.

    2. The "stealing an apple/ taking a car" analogies are a big reason why there are posts peceived to be defending piracy. Really they are just pointing out the obvious flaw in that analogy - that apple was paid for by the shop and now is unavailable for purchase by anyone else as it has been removed from the shelf. Software piracy is different to that.

    3. Unless it's a multiplayer game (of which piracy is relatively easy to stop or contain), games developers have no figures whatsoever to determine how many people are playing their game, pirated or not.

  • miiiguel #90 4 years ago

    "2. The "stealing an apple/ taking a car" analogies are a big reason why there are posts peceived to be defending piracy. Really they are just pointing out the obvious flaw in that analogy - that apple was paid for by the shop and now is unavailable for purchase by anyone else as it has been removed from the shelf. Software piracy is different to that."
    Why should anyone pay for a game then? It's not fair that someone pays and other don't isn't it? Where's the justice in that? What entitles a game the right not to pay for a game, while another should pay? Because he has a "nice rig"? Because he actually wakes up every day at 07:30 and go to an actual job? Because he "likes" the game?
    I say, if there are "excuses" not to buy a game, make them all free. And put a flower in your hair if you're going to San Francisco.

  • Davemanz #91 4 years ago

    If they had made a game that people knew they could run, it wouldn't have been pirated so much. They limited their audience so severely that piracy hurt them more than it otherwise would have.

  • Nithron #92 4 years ago

    What the hell. I'm sorry, but the analogies involving real physical items or services don't work because you're duplicating it and not physically taking it away. So it's not theft. People saying it's "morally theft" only works if the publisher lost a sale, and if the person couldn't have afforded it anyway, they haven't even lost that. So how is it morally wrong if nobody is losing anything but somebody is gaining something? What you're saying is, that people who don't have enough money to enjoy games shouldn't be allowed to, despite the fact that they can without hurting anybody.

    It makes perfect sense to say that someone shouldn't be allowed to enjoy owning a car they cannot afford because someone has had to build that car, and by taking it away forcefully they are costing the dealership/manufacturer money. This is morally wrong because yes, someone has been hurt in that scenario.

    If someone who cannot afford a game, downloads it, nobody has lost anything, nobody has gotten hurt, nobody has even lost a potential sale, so nobody's even potentially getting hurt, and yet you're saying that it's not morally acceptable?

    Why not? Because poor people don't "deserve" the games? And what about people that buy games used? No money goes to the publisher then, does that mean they're stealing?

    What about people that wait until a game is £5 and shops are selling them at less than what they originally paid for the stock? Is that stealing as well?

    I pay for games now when I can. As a teenager, I pirated a lot of stuff because damnit, on a paper round wage you can't afford anything more than one game a month. I couldn't have got those other games i pirated anyway. Obviously, this makes me just as bad as someone mugging old ladies at night.

  • miiiguel #93 4 years ago

    @Nithron, who decides who can afford and who can't? I had a prety big doctor bill last month, does that entitle me a free pass to download a few games this month? I wouldn't buy them anyway, so no one is loosig any money, and we could still be friends.

    I mean, by that logic, every game should be free. Or build an independent entity that goes through your finances and analise who should pay and who shouldn't.

    Or... do the games for the consoles.

    Shit, time is money, is worth something. If your poor but have enough time to download the games (you're intitled to, because you're poor), why don't you get a job, y'a know, at a McDonalds, or whatever. But I also uderstand is way better to be at home playing free games.

    What the heck, I'm poor, I want my games free, and people to like me. See? Kinda easy, init ?
    Edited by 2 at 30/04/08 @ 15:39

  • Garulon #94 4 years ago

    "What the hell. I'm sorry, but the analogies involving real physical items or services don't work because you're duplicating it and not physically taking it away. So it's not theft. "

    Since when does the method of production factor into if stealing is theft or not?

  • Garulon #95 4 years ago

    "If someone who cannot afford a game, downloads it, nobody has lost anything, nobody has gotten hurt, nobody has even lost a potential sale, so nobody's even potentially getting hurt, and yet you're saying that it's not morally acceptable?"

    So they can afford a PC powerful enough to pay for the game, pay for broadband connections fast enough to make downloading a fair few gigs of data, but they can't afford to buy a £30 game? Yeah, right. No they don't "deserve" entertainment they can't afford, I'd suggest if they can't "afford" entertainment then they can spend a few hours bussing tables or whatever instead, then they can "afford" to pay for enjoying themselves like the REST OF US.

  • Katsumoto #96 4 years ago

    @ Nithron - I'm sure we're missing the point of capitalism somewhere here.
    Edited by 1 at 30/04/08 @ 15:38

  • kangarootoo #97 4 years ago

    @Nithron

    You are splitting hairs. Copyright theft is a term in law, just like copyright infringement.

    Seriously though, what does it actually matter? If someone caught you in their kitchen in the middle of the night and accused your of burglary, would you really start picking them up on their exact definition of the words. Whether it is theft, infringement, or pinching is hardly the most crucial question to be answered.

    Crytek are saying that people "infringing their copyright" is losing them money, so they are going to stop making PC exclusives. Hence the people "infringing their copyright" are responsible for the change. Furthermore, the action is illegal. What you call it makes no actual practical difference.

  • subtlesnake #98 4 years ago

    "Add to that the fact that it was essentially a graphical update for FarCry and a pretty rudimentary linear FPS and you have a game that was so much missed potential. Crytek teched themselves out of the market and are now whining because people didn't want to spend £1050 for a new PC and the game."

    I don't really understand how can consider the first part of the game to be linear, given that you're effectively given an entire island to explore. And, at medium settings, a Geforce 7/ Radeon X18xx is perfectly fine; in fact you can probably get by with a Geforce 6 series card: hardware that's now 4 years old.

    "You're depriving the owner of his property, the fact it's not a physcial property is irrelevant. Apples grow on trees every year, I can still steal apples."

    "His property" in this case though, is the money you would have spent, if you bought the game. Surely you can see that the cost to the content owner is indirect, where as with regular theft it's direct: the person physically loses something. Compare two scenarios: in the first, a 12 year old manages to steal a game from a local store, and takes it home to play. Clearly, whether or not the child's age is a mitigating factor, the cost to the store is very real, and in that sense a very real and tangible injustice has been committed.

    In the second scenario, the child manages to download said game, from a peer-to-peer program, and plays it. Now suppose the child has no disposable income, so could not have bought the game himself, or compelled others to buy the game for him. What does the content owner lose? Is it less tangible than what the store has lost, in the first scenario? I think it's hard to argue otherwise.

    Now, people use this sort of argument to condone all piracy, which I'm not, and the usual point is that, had they not had the ability to pirate a game, they wouldn't have bought it anyway, and so in this respect there is never any cost to the producer.

    However, the flaw in this reasoning, is that it takes the agents' own dispositions and morals as given. But to assess the impact of one's moral perspective regarding piracy, we have to include that perspective in the equation. And so the producer can still suffer a 'loss' if the pirate would have bought the game, had he believed in fair compensation (compensating the producer for the product he's taking advantage of).

    Looking at the situation from this perspective it's clear that piracy has very real costs - they're just not as easy to discern as those involved in physical theft, and I think the costs are qualitatively different. Recognising this is in no way condoning piracy: instead it's committing to having a sensible discussion instead of just throwing simplistic analogies at people.

    And apples are as physical as everything else aren't they?

  • miiiguel #99 4 years ago

    What I still fail to understand is "who the heck decides the ones who are entitled (or aceptable) to download games?". Is it an age thing? An income thing? I mean, there must be some sort of reasoning to back this theory up, no?
    Edited by 1 at 30/04/08 @ 15:47

  • jaywalker3010 Verified Mastering Manager, Square Enix #100 4 years ago

    Just a quick point to those who are still undecided on the actual legality of all this.

    Put yourself in our shoes. YOU design a game, spend years developing it, marketing it, getting it into a box. THEN find out it being downloaded by some oik who says its not theft. What would you be saying to them on here?

  • UncleLou #101 4 years ago

    It's not a simplistic analogy at all. It's a closely related crime according to legal science. It's mainyl legal laymen which insist it's something entirely different because they overemphasise one element (deprivation of a physical object), looking past all the similarities.
    Edited by 1 at 30/04/08 @ 15:55

  • Nithron #102 4 years ago

    Subtlesnake gets it exactly right. I'm not trying to propose that the entire world adopts a weird legal system where you check people's income to see what they can and cannot do. I'm not arguing that people pirating games when they cannot afford them is legal, or should be; i'm arguing that it has no negative consequences and so can't reasonably be considered morally wrong.

    As with everything else in life, there are grey areas here, and it's not totally clear cut. Not all pirates are parasites and scumbags.

  • miiiguel #103 4 years ago

    "What would you be saying to them on here?"

    Changes are, it'd be:
    1. I wouldn't have bought it anyway!
    2. Meh...It sucks!
    2. I'm poor.
    3. It's an FPS.
    4. It's just a game, not a real thing! Get a real job making cars, or something!
    5. I wanted a demo. A real demo, if I happen to like I consider making you a real favor and buy it when it reaches sub-5$ mark.
    6. My PC is not ultra-high-super-duper-awesome-high-tech as I can't run the game in ultra-high-millions-upon-millions-of-pixels.

  • jaywalker3010 Verified Mastering Manager, Square Enix #104 4 years ago

    miiiguel -

    Hehe very true.

  • Ryze #105 4 years ago

    The thing is, that they're talking about piracy that they can see.

    Many people can't play Crysis. I'd have bought it if I has a PC that can run it, and many of these downloads will be from curious people without suitable hardware, just to see how well/poorly it runs.

    I'd bet my month's salary that tonnes of the people that bought it are linked to the games biz also. Why spend £20-30 on a game that is likely to chug on all but 0.5% of PCs?

    Their stats are bad - but yes, developing for consoles will earn them more sales. The 360 version of any game gets pirated out, but as it's more DVD > DVD rather than downloaded to play on one PC, they have no stats on this.

    The PC has always been an awkward bugger in terms of games. It's easy to blame the pirates.

  • subtlesnake #106 4 years ago

    "It's not a simplistic analogy at all. It's a closely related crime according to legal science."

    Yes, and the analogy is useless for trying to determine the differences between the two types of crime.

    "i'm arguing that it has no negative consequences and so can't reasonably be considered morally wrong."

    Well, there's some ambiguity over what 'can't afford' should mean, and even in the case where someone has no disposable income, you might want to say that what they're doing is wrong (taking advantage of a product without paying for it), even if there's no real cost to the producer. That's a coherent perspective to have, even if you don't agree with it.

  • skillian #107 4 years ago

    Put yourself in our shoes. YOU design a game, spend years developing it, marketing it, getting it into a box. THEN find out it being downloaded by some oik who says its not theft. What would you be saying to them on here?

    To be honest, I think the arguing about the legality is kind of pointless. You are much better off looking at the morality of the issue. Generally people don't choose whether or not to download games/music/TV because of the legal argument, as we all know the chances of getting busted for it are extremely slim anyway.

  • ruckus #108 4 years ago

    "Furthermore, the action is illegal. What you call it makes no actual practical difference."

    I think it changes the offence from being civil to criminal and thus the amount of damages due if found guilty.
    It's also why RIAA and their like lobby for the change since it would mean the state would prosecute instead of the matter being handled in civil court.

    keyword: I think ;)

  • jaywalker3010 Verified Mastering Manager, Square Enix #109 4 years ago

    skillian -

    Yeh i know its a bit pointless, but those who say theres nothing wrong am sure would be seeing things differently if it was THEIR product we were discussing

  • jaywalker3010 Verified Mastering Manager, Square Enix #110 4 years ago

    Oh and i dont work for Crytek by the way lol..

  • miiiguel #111 4 years ago

    "Their stats are bad - but yes, developing for consoles will earn them more sales. The 360 version of any game gets pirated out"
    How can you compare the piracy problem on the PC with 360 (or any console, as they are all but PS3 - yet - "hackable";) ?, when Halo 3 sold 9 million copies, and a couple of dozen + 1 million ?
    What was the last title to sell 9 millions on a PC? if ever?

  • tripitaka #112 4 years ago

    ^^^
    If only...

    Anyway, I think the main point of the discussion is not the semantics of whether or not it is theft, or right or wrong, but that unless you are able to determine how many of these downloads would otherwise correspond to a sale, it is difficult to use them as evidence to support a decision on whether or not to support a platform.

  • tripitaka #113 4 years ago

    The Sims?
    WOW?

    Next stupid question please...

  • Nallen #114 4 years ago

    Nice to see that every single contradictory post following mine has been an arguement of semantics and justifications of why people think they are entitled to get something you are obliged to pay for, for free. Just like I said.

  • miiiguel #115 4 years ago

    "how many of these downloads would otherwise correspond to a sale"
    but..., who decides that? I mean, imagine two guys realy want a game, one can afford it for some reason the other one can't, is the later entitled to a free copy, because he wouldn't bought it anyway? The poor sod who had a couple of bucks more that month isn't ?

    This clearly doesn't work, because soon it would escalte to "want/don't want to pay" rather than "can/can't pay".
    Edited by 1 at 30/04/08 @ 16:28

  • Nallen #116 4 years ago

    but..., who decides that? I mean, imagine two guys realy want a game, one can afford it for some reason the other one can't, is the later entitled to a free copy, because he wouldn't bought it anyway? The poor sod who had a couple of bucks more that month isn't ?

    Exactly! hilarious really, you decide you can't afford something and therefore you are entitled to get it for free? is that the point? as you keep saying, this thought process has only two conclusions, all games are free or all people are means tested at the local EB!

    To be honest I think this prevailing attitude [in this comments thread] is symptomatic of today's [generally] prevailing sense of automatic entitlement which has imbedded itself in our benefit fraud riddled society. You don't want to work for it so somehow you're entitled to it for free.
    Edited by 1 at 30/04/08 @ 16:37

  • miiiguel #117 4 years ago

    "WOW?

    Next stupid question please... "

    WOW - 8 million copies in more than a few years.
    The Sims - the 43423 editions? maybe a bit less even.

    Halo 3, almost 9 milions in less than a year.

    That said, the question was not stupid. And it can be proved in: http://ww w.eurogamer.net/article.php?art...

    Or do you think Crytek said this just because consoles are a bad buisness and "stuff" ?
    Edited by 1 at 30/04/08 @ 16:36

  • kangarootoo #118 4 years ago

    Jesus, this thread is just a cloud of nonsense. Seriously, did anyone even read the article. Here are some patronisingly delivered facts to try and get us back on track.

    1. Whether piracy is theft, infringement, or just meaness is NOT IMPORTANT. The focus of the article is that Crytek don't want to keep losing money due to piracy, so they are going to stop making PC exclusives. THAT is what is important here. Piracy has resulted in their change of business practice. Your feelings on the moral position of piracy, or whether it counts as "real stealing" are irrelevant.

    2. Are people seriously suggesting that there are legions of pirates out there with sub-spec PCs, all playing Crysis at 10 fps? If people have a PC that runs Crysis well enough for them to enjoy playing the game, they should probably be paying for it. Its not rocket science ffs. If the game runs so badly on your PC that playing it isn't fun, why would you play it at all (pirated or purchased)?

    Talk about changing the subject. People seem to dislike the idea that piracy has actually harmed a product and changed the business plan of a developer, so they rattle on about all sorts of other nonsense to avoid the subject at hand.

  • tripitaka #119 4 years ago

    Regardless of whether he's entitled to it (and I don't think anybody is saying he is), if he was never going to buy it in any case then the fact he downloaded it for free is fairly meaningless.

  • subtlesnake #120 4 years ago

    "The Sims?
    WOW?"

    Yeah, Crytek should drop this FPS crap, and start making real games: Sims expansions!

  • tripitaka #121 4 years ago

    @kangarootoo

    in answer to (2), my point is that most of these people that downloaded are more than likely not playing it at all. It takes no time to download that amount of data these days. They probably download, find it runs at 10fps and delete it again.

  • tripitaka #122 4 years ago

    jay - with respect to some of our games (no names mentioned), if I went to the shops and paid £40 for them, I think I'd feel like I was the one being robbed...

  • Nallen #123 4 years ago

    Jesus, this thread is just a cloud of nonsense. Seriously, did anyone even read the article. Here are some patronisingly delivered facts to try and get us back on track.

    While I'm well aware the bulk of this is basically 'off topic' I can't see how the discussion is avoidable when a company says 'piracy costs us money' and all the pirates say 'oh no it doesn't'.

    And for the last time, not wanting to pay for something is not a reason for you to have it for free. Even if you're too stupid to see that it's theft.

  • miiiguel #124 4 years ago

    So..., I decided to quit PC gaming, as I don't want to keep upgrading my PC. Can I have my free-pass now ? ;)
    I'm sure I'm not buying a PC game anytime soon, I swear!

    I wish this *theory* worked for, let say movies as well. I mean, if I could go to the cinema and say I wouldn't pay a ticket to see that movie they should let me in. The possibilities are endless...

  • GamesConnoisseur #125 4 years ago

    Like others say piracy is never at any time an acceptable excuse! You have only hurt yourselves by cutting that hands that feed you. What motiviate the devs/pubs to make games? Money, if not enough money in it then forget it, you can have your free flash games if that what you want.

    Consoles unfortunate for PC owners is a better bet for devs/pubs to generate profits from their work, multi platform titles is here to stay for all. Platform exclusives can work if there is money and drive to do it, Sony and MS have more interests to protect their platform but who looks after PC?

  • kangarootoo #126 4 years ago

    "you decide you can't afford something and therefore you are entitled to get it for free? is that the point?"

    Exactly. People that try and justify taking a luxury item they haven't paid for by complaining they can't afford it are childish fantasists.

    If you can't afford food, you might be able to justify stealing it because its life and death. But games don't even come close. They are luxury goods, things that any sane person can live without. If you can't afford them, TOUGH F*CKING LUCK. Get another hobby you can afford, or get a better job. Walking in the park is free, do that instead and save up dumbass.

    I can't afford a porshe, can I steal one? I can't afford a penthouse apartment, can I steal one? I can't afford a bath full of money to wash myself in, can I steal one?

    People should at least have the balls big enough to say they simply don't care. Claiming poverty as an excuse for stealing luxury items just makes them look thick.

    Cor, full fut rant in effect. Its over, for now.

  • Nallen #127 4 years ago

    or I could go to a gallery, find a picture I think might go with my house and then just walk out with a print because hey, no one is really losing, it's just a copy. I mean there is no way I would have actually paid for it. I just think I might like to have it for nothing.

    And because there is no guy on the door everyone does it. And then the gallery shuts down because they make no sales, but the people stealing the copies are not responsible. Oh no.

  • tripitaka #128 4 years ago

    I wouldn't question their decision, it undoubtedly makes sense in the long run.

    But putting it all down to piracy seems like looking for an easy excuse (and one that is essentially out of your control and hard to quantify), when there are no doubt countless other factors to consider.

    And for a game that requires the specs that it does, Crysis has sold pretty well. In addition, I would imagine it 'has legs' - I will certainly buy it at some point in the future, but right now my hardware just isn't up to the job.

  • tripitaka #129 4 years ago

    but if you take it from the gallery, THEY NO LONGER HAVE THEIR COPY.

    Software piracy doesn't work like this - therfore an illegal download does not always equal a lost sale.

    Note - I'm not saying this makes it any way right. Jus telling it how it is and shooting down an incorrect analogy.

  • jaywalker3010 Verified Mastering Manager, Square Enix #130 4 years ago

    tripitaka -

    Just because they are `the sort that wouldnt pay anyway` doesnt detract from the fact that its 1 more person getting a product that someones taken time and money to create without contributing in anyway.

    Crytek have taken the decision that its simply got out of hand and regardless of how many sales they have made, there are SO many out there who have PLAYED the product without paying for it. Illegal `players` spoil it for those who actually support the industry by paying for it.

    Oh and yes i aint saying all games are worth the value charged for them ;) but thats not the question here.

    Edited by 1 at 30/04/08 @ 17:00

  • Nallen #131 4 years ago

    but if you take it from the gallery, THEY NO LONGER HAVE THEIR COPY.

    Software piracy doesn't work like this - therfore an illegal download does not always equal a lost sale.

    Note - I'm not saying this makes it any way right. Jus telling it how it is and shooting down an incorrect analogy.

    I said take a copy, not take the original. I was highly specific about that in the hopes everyone would understand how the analogy works. Guess it was lost on you.

  • skillian #132 4 years ago

    To be honest I'm not sure that PC developers are on average making any less money than they used to (I have no idea if this is the case or not). But I am sure that console developers are far more succesful financially, and you can't blame games studios for wanting a piece of that pie.

    PC gaming is not becoming smaller because of PC gamers (pirates or not), it's becoming smaller because deveoping for consoles is a much easier way of making money.

    edit: and while the art gallery analogy works, it fails because I see absolutely nothing wrong with getting a print (that has somehow not cost anyone anything, not even the printer) of a piece of art that I would never be able to afford. That's why people prefer using the stealing a car analogy despite the fact that is analogically incorrect :)
    Edited by 2 at 30/04/08 @ 17:05

  • tripitaka #133 4 years ago

    I don't approve, but I don't see how they spoil it?

    Sure, it's annoying, and sure it's wrong.

    But at the end of the day, if they are not a customer and never will be, then ignore it. Base your decision making on how many people will buy the product (your customers).

    If you decide that you will only be able to sell 1 million copies on the platform and therefore need to support other platforms, then fair enough. But the number of illegal downloads shouldn't factor into your decision, because they are not your customers.

    Of course, they could be viewed as POTENTIAL customers... digital distribution of games still has some way to go. It shouldn't cost more for me to by a game via steam at launch than it does to order it on physical media from somebody like play.com.

    As the music industry are finding, if you provide a sensibly priced and equally convenient alternative to piracy, people will use it.

    edit: only some people of course, there will always be the hardcore that aren't prepared to pay.
    Edited by 1 at 30/04/08 @ 17:05

  • jaywalker3010 Verified Mastering Manager, Square Enix #134 4 years ago

    What if said person who TOOK their copy of the painting from the gallery and put it on his wall, then his mates all saw it, instead of going to the gallery.. thats lost business.

    Its a knock on effect.

    Anyways.. we're really having to scrape the barrel here if we're having to go to such great lengths to explain it doesnt matter how you try and swing it, if you HAVE a product in anyway/shape/form/delivery method and it has a cost attached to it and you've not paid that cost, you have taken it illegally.

    Less money to stores, means less money to distributors (online retailers), which means less money to publishers, which means less money to developers which `could` lead to developers cutting back on development. OH wait thats whats happened here, and unfortunately to massive amount of developers in the UK

  • RedboX #135 4 years ago

    I'd like to know where they get thier numbers from, sure its easy to find out how many copies you have sold, but how many pirated copes there are? how exactly did they come up with that figure?


  • tripitaka #136 4 years ago

    I'm about to lose my job, and it's down to crap products, not piracy.

  • tripitaka #137 4 years ago

    "I'd like to know where they get thier numbers from, sure its easy to find out how many copies you have sold, but how many pirated copes there are? how exactly did they come up with that figure?"

    I guess you can get a fairly good idea of this from bittorrent trackers\sites\whatever.

    What I don't get is how you convert this into how many sales you've lost i.e. how many of these people would have paid for the product if they couldn't get it for free.

  • Nallen #138 4 years ago

    edit: and while the art gallery analogy works, it fails because I see absolutely nothing wrong with getting a print (that has somehow not cost anyone anything, not even the printer) of a piece of art that I would never be able to afford. That's why people prefer using the stealing a car analogy despite the fact that is analogically incorrect :)

    So you can't tell the difference between buying a print and stealing a print?

    Or perhaps you think all the people that pirate games are sending a £5 note to the company that made the game saying 'sorry this is all I could manage'.

  • jaywalker3010 Verified Mastering Manager, Square Enix #139 4 years ago

    tripitaka -

    To keep it simple, 1 lost sale is too many..

  • skillian #140 4 years ago

    What if said person who TOOK their copy of the painting from the gallery and put it on his wall, then his mates all saw it, instead of going to the gallery.. thats lost business.

    Well, most art galleries are free to enter because artists and governments see the value in exposing that art to as many people as possible, whether or not they would be able to afford it ;)

    There is a large number of artists/musicians who do it purely for the love of the art, and if they make enough money to earna living thena ll the better. There are few devopers left it seems like that in the gaming industry, although if there's one place they are to be found it's in PC gaming. That's why I love it so :)

  • Hendo #141 4 years ago

    I've read this whole thread so far and people who torrent need to grow a pair and fess up that it's doing no good whatsoever to the platform they supposedly care about. Stop using torrents and stop arguing whether it's "theft" or "copyright infringement" like that argument actually matters.

  • kangarootoo #142 4 years ago

    "But putting it all down to piracy seems like looking for an easy excuse (and one that is essentially out of your control and hard to quantify), when there are no doubt countless other factors to consider. "

    I say again, what possible motive is there for Crytek to give anything but the truth? What do they even NEED an easy excuse?

  • jaywalker3010 Verified Mastering Manager, Square Enix #143 4 years ago

    skillian -

    Damn you :)

    U know what i mean.. what if the gallery charged for entry :p or had drinks for sale.. it all has an effect..

    just cos SOME artists do it for love doesnt mean everyone does.

  • skillian #144 4 years ago

    So you can't tell the difference between buying a print and stealing a print?

    I thought you had finally given an analogy that makes sense. Now you're talking about buying prints/stealing prints, I'm back to "that's not the same thing so you can't compare the two".

  • tripitaka #145 4 years ago

    Because it's easier to come out in public and blame piracy than it is to admit to mistakes that they themselves made.

  • jaywalker3010 Verified Mastering Manager, Square Enix #146 4 years ago

    Aint that the whole point about analogies, they arent perfect cos they are based on different things but its the essence of them?

    if you start to take an analogy apart you are really trying to find a flaw in an argument rather then argue the original point :)
    Edited by 1 at 30/04/08 @ 17:19

  • jaywalker3010 Verified Mastering Manager, Square Enix #147 4 years ago

    Hey guys, we've managed to make this thread the biggest one based on something other then GTbloodyA :)

  • kangarootoo #148 4 years ago

    "But the number of illegal downloads shouldn't factor into your decision, because they are not your customers."

    That is an oversimplification. It assumes that if a gamer cannot obtain a pirated copy of a game they will simply give up. This is simply not the case.

    Much piracy is opportunistic. If you can get something for free, why bother paying for it? CD sales were doing just fine before piracy got loads easier. There wasn't legions of clairvoyant music fans out there, sat in silence awaiting the day they all knew was coming when they could download music for nothing. People bought music, until something easier came along.

    Games are the same. The harder it gets to obtain a pirate copy, the more likely someone is to just buy a copy instead. Not ALL pirated copies are lost sales, I wouldn't be so naive as to suggest that... but some of them are, perhaps even a great many of them.

  • skillian #149 4 years ago

    I say again, what possible motive is there for Crytek to give anything but the truth? What do they even NEED an easy excuse?

    Why do large companies need to make up excuses for why their product fails? I would think that's obvious, we see it all the time.

    However in this case I think Crytek are spot on, Far Cry seems to be at the top of the list at any torrent sites I visit (although I don't think you can call Crysis a failure).

    Anyway despite all this doom and gloom talk, this is actually kind of a happy story - Crytek will now be developing for consoles as well as PC, so everyone's happy right?

  • Katsumoto #150 4 years ago

    If any of you have access to Westlaw, LexisNexis etc, check out ""You wouldn't steal a car ...": intellectual property and the language of theft." by Patricia Loughlan at E.I.P.R. 2007, 29(10), 401-405.

    "Copyright infringement is not theft. But a technical analysis of whether copyright infringement is or is not “theft” is probably largely beside the point anyway. The use of terminology like “theft” or “stealing” in contemporary intellectual property discourse is not meant to reflect legal fact. When the background authoritative voice in the MPAA film quoted above[i.e. You wouldn't steal a car etc] intones that “downloading a pirated film is stealing”, no statement of law is being made. The statement is meant, rather, to draw upon and mobilise the ordinary, almost instinctive response of ordinary people to dislike, disdain and despise the unauthorised user of copyright works as they would dislike, disdain and despise the ordinary thief who takes away from another “with intent to permanently deprive”."

  • tripitaka #151 4 years ago

    I completely agree with you, apart from I don't think it is a great many of them.

    It's certainly some, and no doubt it is significant. But the person that is downloading Crysis is probably the same person that is pirating almost every other major PC game when it comes out.

    So, even if you were to convert them in to the sort of person that WAS to buy games, it is unlikely that they would be able to buy as many as they currently pirate.

  • skillian #152 4 years ago

    edit: @ Katsumoto

    ^This much is certainly true. It's like the old anti-drugs adverts that tried to pretend that taking ecstasy would kill you or by smoking weed you'd never hold on to a real job.

    People would be much better off talking about things honestly, then you won't get so much of a backlash as people can easily shoot down your arguments.
    Edited by 1 at 30/04/08 @ 17:27

  • Subquest #153 4 years ago

    ok lads I'll hold my hand and say that in the last year I've torrented a few games that I would never have bought anyway. I also bought about 10 top rated games such as Crysis, Bioshock, Orange Box, probably an outlay of around £200 over the year. I know it's technically wrong to torrent games, but as has been suggested here, I wouldn't have bought them anyway. If a game reviews well, I'll pay for it.

    Shoot me now.

  • Nallen #154 4 years ago

    Explain to me why my analogy doesn't work, because I just can't see it.

    In the example you're not depriving anyone of anything, but you are taking something for free which should cost money. I'd say that was pretty fucking analogous. I used the art example because there are often many identical copies of the same thing and stealing some of them when people pay for others is the same deal as software piracy, it just requires you to go in to a shop and take something physical.

  • kangarootoo #155 4 years ago

    @skillian

    Most devs make games for the love of making games; its not like it pays that well compared to some of the other things we could be doing. However, that hardly means devs should stop caring when people rip off their products.

    Example.
    1. I love making games. I left a much better paid industry in order to do so.
    2. I am also rather keen on money, and now that I've chosen to make games for a living I'd very much like to make as much cash as possible doing so.

    @tripitaka

    "Because it's easier to come out in public and blame piracy than it is to admit to mistakes that they themselves made."

    What mistakes? Seriously, what fantasy mistakes do you speak of? Spread your obviously well informed insider knowledge.

    Here is a question for you, which you might find puzzling. If Crytek in fact had other motives for changing their business plans, why would they say ANYTHING AT ALL?

    Its not like the they need to say this. They could simply say nothing, and then publish their next title on a variety of platforms. Devs move from exclusive to multi-platform all the time without saying DICK in the way of justification.

    You act like they had to say something and this was the best excuse they could come up with, but they didn't have to say a damn thing. Its not like their next title is even going to be coming out anytime soon!

    There is no conspiracy, 'cos there is no motive.

  • jaywalker3010 Verified Mastering Manager, Square Enix #156 4 years ago

    Now you see why i didnt win awards as a public speaker or entered into the debates at school :)

    Am just someone who makes games for a living.
    Edited by 1 at 30/04/08 @ 17:28

  • miiiguel #157 4 years ago

    "Because it's easier to come out in public and blame piracy than it is to admit to mistakes that they themselves made. "
    Like what? They seem very honest to say: we want to make as much money as console developers are making. Isn't that honest enough ?

    I think it would be also honest for people who pirate games to admit they do because: it's easy, they can have more money to build "decent rigs", need to spend money at the pub, they're students..., and whatever, and stop trying to say piracy is not bad because they "wouldn't buy the games anyway".
    When I don't have money to buy something, I usualy save for while, or cut on some expenses, I don't just take it just because I can't pay for it.

  • kangarootoo #158 4 years ago

    "Why do large companies need to make up excuses for why their product fails? I would think that's obvious, we see it all the time."

    If it is obvious to you, please share the knowledge with the less enlightened amongst us. I kind of have an allergy to broad unspecifics you see ;)

  • tripitaka #159 4 years ago

    @kangarootoo

    I'm not speaking of fantasy mistakes at all. Is it not pretty widely accepted that Crysis requires a beast of a PC to run on?

    Frankly, this is a niche market. If you want to make PC games that sell, target the mainstream, or target mainstream hardware.

  • kangarootoo #160 4 years ago

    "People would be much better off talking about things honestly, then you won't get so much of a backlash as people can easily shoot down your arguments."

    This is the point I have being trying to make all along. People are "shooting down" a point that CVrytek never even made.

    1. Crytek said piracy was harming their sales.

    2. Everyone started harping on about the morality of piracy and whether or not it was really technically "stealing".

    UNCONNECTED.

    Is it really not clear? I'm not that clever or anything. Why does nobody else see this?

  • Skeletor #161 4 years ago

    @Kangarootoo

    Crytek is not making any excuses. All they do is stating their motives for a change of business practices. None of them ever said that PC gaming is dying or any similar nonsense. All they're saying is that such a big project like Crysis has to be multiplatform from the start in order to make good money (see Epic, Id Soft etc.).
    And to answer a point you made a few posts above - if you don't have a 1080p screen buying blu-ray films is pretty much nonsense and it's better to go for the standard dvd then. Unfortunately, in gaming this is not possible. If you're ok with playing Crysis on minimum settings (=not getting the full experience) you still have to pay the same full price as somebody with a high end PC. Many people simply refuse to do that and that's why the game got pirated so hard.

  • skillian #162 4 years ago

    @ Nallen:

    I think people might get annoyed soon at how many replies I'm posting here, but I'll do one more ;)

    Is your analogy talking about stealing prints that are for sale in an art gallery? Or is it about getting a free copy (theoretically somehow without costs of ink, printers' fees, etc.) of a painting? The first one doesn't work as an analogy, the second one does.

  • tripitaka #163 4 years ago

    miiguel - I'm not trying to say piracy is not bad because they wouldn't buy the games anyway. I'm just saying that if it isn't a lost sale, then you can't base any meaningful decision on it.

  • jaywalker3010 Verified Mastering Manager, Square Enix #164 4 years ago

    I wonder how many people are actually reading this far into the thread :)

  • tripitaka #165 4 years ago

    Interestingly, by making a cross platform engine, they'll probably end up with a product that is less demanding on PC hardware too - so yet more potential sales.

  • kangarootoo #166 4 years ago

    @tripitaka

    Ok, I was being fascicious, and thanks for answering civily (I've been quite grumpy in this thread, but everyone has been very tollerant).

    Your point about the high spec requirements is true, but I am still puzzled as to why people find the specs too high to buy the game but not too high to pirate and play it. Surely if you PC isn't up to the job, it matters not whether money changed hands or not.

    Btw, for the record, I have pirated games in my life. I just find it weak when people try and claim some form of morale justification. Such justification simply doesn't exist, and when I pirated in the past I was stealing and I did so because it was easy and I didn't want to pay. I have also bought many games, in particular the games that I thought were very good, and I haven't pirated anything for aons (maybe that is because I moved from PC games to consoles, maybe it is because I joined the industry and my feelings on the matter changed?). But clearly I am shades of grey, like everyone else I suppose (who among us hasn't broken a speed limit?).

    People spend far too long taking things personally and trying to defend their own individual standpoint. Such an attitude gets squarely in the way of open factual debate. I can happily argue against piracy, knowing it is wrong, and knowing I am not perfect.

  • miiiguel #167 4 years ago

    And, to be honest, if Crytek made mistakes, every company that makes PC games are making mistakes (except, perhaps, WoW case), as console games dominate the charts, pretty much everywhere.
    I'm sure Rockstar didn't make that mistake as they didn't release it on PC. Can anyone imagine these million sales on the PC platform? I'd imagine an "internet overflow" of "torrenting" it.

  • kangarootoo #168 4 years ago

    @Skeletor

    "Crytek is not making any excuses. All they do is stating their motives for a change of business practices."

    That is kind of my point. Any references I mnade to excuses were sarcasm, as I stated I don't believe Crytek HAVE to make excuses.

    "Many people simply refuse to do that and that's why the game got pirated so hard."

    I sort of see your point, but its no excuse really is it. Does a city dweller expect a discount on a porshe because they don't have the room to open it up? Some would suggest that the price it costs is the price it costs, and as a customer you decide (taking your own circumstances into account) whether it is worth it or not.

  • tripitaka #169 4 years ago

    As I said before, it is certainly not inconceivable that a lot of people have pirated it and found that it DOESN'T run acceptably.

    Just because they have downloaded it, does not mean that they've sat there and played it from start to finish.

  • skillian #170 4 years ago

    One more, to kanga:

    "Why do large companies need to make up excuses for why their product fails? I would think that's obvious, we see it all the time."

    If it is obvious to you, please share the knowledge with the less enlightened amongst us. I kind of have an allergy to broad unspecifics you see ;)

    There are lots of examples I could give you (New Coke, Guy Ritchie's Swept Away etc. etc.) but here's one from EG yesterday: [link url=http://www.eurogamer.net/article.php?article_id=134774
    ]http://ww w.eurogamer.net/article.php?art...[/link]

    The developers of Fatal Inertia, blamed a bad demo and poor framerates for the failure of their game, but reading the comments it seems it was not those things, but the fact that it's a shit game, that is the real reason for poor sales.

  • AphoticCosmos #171 4 years ago

    Guess what kids! Piracy is wrong k?

    Sheesh . . . PC Gaming is up against it as it is without selfish 12-year olds torrenting every game under the damn sun.

  • Cyclone #172 4 years ago

    You wouldn't steal a car. You wouldn't steal a baby...

    http://www .youtube.com/watch?v=MTbX1aMajow

  • CitizenGeek #173 4 years ago

    I think this is good news. The PC, as a platform, doesn't have any appeal for me; especially now that the PS3 and 360 (and the Wii, if you still consider that console to be relevant) are fully connected to the internet. PCs are too expensive and too complicated. Good riddance!

  • Gaol #174 4 years ago

    Anyone pirating on PC is a cheap chump when the games are so reasonably priced, but I'm not sure it was the sole cause. Most PC gamers seem to be playing WoW, plus Bioshock and Orange Box were released around the same time (and are better games imo).

    It's ashame though when devs commited to getting the best out the platform give up on exclusives, especially ones as talented as Crytek.
    Edited by 1 at 30/04/08 @ 18:13

  • Katsumoto #175 4 years ago

    "Yes, some people other than me get to have less fun! AWESOME"

    Wow, we'd got 3 whole pages without a stupid console troll ruining the fun. Good work.

  • skillian #176 4 years ago

    Can anyone imagine these million sales on the PC platform? I'd imagine an "internet overflow" of "torrenting" it

    Well, Crysis sold more than a million, and that is a game hit hard by piracy. Orange Box sold better on PC than it did on consoles too.

    PC game sales are there to be made if you do it right.

  • AOFanboi #177 4 years ago

    <em>Explain to me why my analogy doesn't work, because I just can't see it.</em>

    Because copying electronic information is totally different from removing physical items. If you take away an item which takes time and effort (cost) to reproduce you are inflicting a cost, if you reproduce something with a negligible cost of reproduction without paying for it you are reducing a potential income. There is no loss or cost to the manufacturer or retailer. OR said in a different manner: The publisher "loses" as much money as if I enter a store, see the game on a shelf, and decide not to buy it and just leave it there. But the industry would not call me a "thief" for not buying it.

    Because the laws covering theft of property are different from those governing violation of copyright. If they were the same there would not need to be two separate laws. As others have pointed out, the IP industries are abusing language when they call unlicensed copying theft.

    Because the industry really has a bigger problem with the second-hand markets at EB, Game etc. where actual copies change owners with a big profit for the retailer so they have a bigger incentive to sell used games than new games.

    Yes, playing a game is more like a "service" that the manufacturer wants you to pay for. Basically, a game publisher takes a gamble when financing development of a game, that there will be sales exceeding the cost. This happens rarely, not because of piracy but because many released titles are SHITE (not necessarily applicable to Crysis) and do not deserve to sell as many copies as the developers hope for. Then piracy becomes a nice excuse to drag out instead of admitting that they suck.

    As Brad Wardell has pointed out: The people pirating games are not customers, the people paying for them are. So you give people incentives to buy the game, e.g. adding making-of DVDs, the Ultima cloth maps - or Steam's authentication system and Stardock's "license to patch" service.

    So: The "stealing a car" analogy fails because it really does not apply and is only used to manipulate opinion. Please stop using it, industry and its "defenders", if you want to be taken seriously. (The "loss" argument is also a LIE because there is a difference between adding € 0 to a sum and subtracting € 60 from it.)

    And please stop accusing anyone who points out the fallacy of these arguments of defending piracy (though some seem to do so in this thread), because this is not a "with us or against us" situation.

    Also: Because the IP industries often try and twist the laws when they don't like them, e.g. instead of attributing the rights to the creative people like designers, programmers and authors they start using phrases like "work for hire" so that the copyrights appear to belong to the company and not to the artists, which contradicts the intent of copyright - a company is not creative, though the creator can contract out rights associated with their works. And this twisting of copyright law through lobbyism and lawyer armies that discourage standing up to abuses is bad. This does not mean they should be punished through piracy - they should be punished through fines.

    Another example: If I go to a music store in Norway they want, say, NOK 160 for a CD. If I instead go and buy the same album on iTunes - LEGALLY - I can get two albums for that price. Did I then "steal" that second album? Why not? Discuss.

  • immateriaux #178 4 years ago

    Think people lost a lot of respect for Crytek after their phony DX10 restrictions were exposed. It's hard to take things from people you respect but gets much easier when they have no respect for you.

    But mostly I agree with what's up above, publishers should incentivise the purchase rather than attempt to shackle the product. Again, they will gain customer satisfaction, respect, loyalty, "buy-in" etc instead of the often discovered levels of frustration, inconvenience and awkwardness derived from typical heavy handed copy protection measures. Plus, Bioshock had one of the most ridiculous over-the-top copy protections around (something this site oddly continues to avoid mentioning) yet it is in a higher position than Crysis in these piracy charts that presumably yer man is on about. All that laying on layers of copy protection does is provide a challenge for the cracker and inconvenience to the genuine customer. Everybody loses really.

  • Svecke #179 4 years ago

    Stopped reading the comments after rowsdower's post on the second page. Congratulations sir, you win the thread.

  • subtlesnake #180 4 years ago

    "Another example: If I go to a music store in Norway they want, say, NOK 160 for a CD. If I instead go and buy the same album on iTunes - LEGALLY - I can get two albums for that price. Did I then "steal" that second album? Why not? Discuss."

    Well, what you're paying for in this case is the distribution channel, and there's no obligation on your part to choose the most expensive provider - so no. I think the underlying principle is that to take advantage of a particular product, you must also compensate those providing that product, on the providers' terms. In the case of purchasing off iTunes, that's obviously occurring, but where you illegally download a piece of media, you're using that media for your own purposes, without respecting the rights of the content owner to be compensated for their work.

    Obviously it becomes a bit more complex when you consider renting media – if you buy a second hand game, or your friend lends you a DVD, the content provider isn't being compensated either, but there those rights have already been granted to you as acceptable uses of those products. I think certainly there's a conflict between the usage rights we've come to expect, and the 'single use' nature of much of our digital media (seeing a movie for example), but probably in the future DRM will help content providers wrestle back control and we'll have a more consistent set of usage rights.

  • miiiguel #181 4 years ago

    AOFanboi, I understand all that, what I fail to do is: if I don't have the money (or the will, or whatever) should I be entitled to a product or service that costs money to acquire ?
    Because if that's the case, I said it before, and I'll say it again, I have other places to spend my money and I want my free-pass same as the other "poor peeple". Give it to me!

  • bigdaddydj #182 4 years ago

    Define Irony.

    Creating a game that uses key code technology that was in use when Quake came out, then bitch about it being cracked and pirated.

    If you don't want a game stolen, don't use crappy technology. It's like the person who buys an expensive system for video editing but won't pay the few extra bucks for training on how to use video editing software, then throws the whole system under the bus for their inability to use it.

    Or like buying a race car and not hiring a professional driver to win races.

    Or like paying for high quality players on your team, but hiring a crappy coach.

    Or to the piracy point, like having a shop but not paying for CCTV and alarm system.