Xbox Originals amalgamated by GOD News

There should be some way of selling them on though, I have loads of arcade games I no longer play and would love to be able to get even half the points back by "returning" it to MS

MS, Sony and Nintendo need to realise that the sale of second hand games is not killing their industry it is helping it to thrive. If I shell out £40 on a game I don't like I don't worry too much as I know I'll get a least half of that back by selling it on. If I can only buy it as a download I'm going to think twice and probably buy a lot less games.

@ lawlost

+1

+1 for being much more cautious of download-only games. Especially where demos do not suffice/exist.

Oh my lord!

This could work IF the games are cheaper than in the shops, but whats the chances of that!, they'll most likely charge the full RRP when the same game can be found cheaper online/in a shop and of course with the option to trade-in.

I am against second hand games (or super inflated new games prices on sites like Amazon for older titles).

I believe digital distribution with a time sensitive pricing structure is the way forward. If a new released game cost £40.00 then a game 6 months old should cost half that.

What I really think Microsoft needs to do to meet the demands of gamers who play and sell on is create a subsciption service. Pay a monthly subscription fee (like netflix or Lovefilm). Keep the game as long as you want, when you are done playing it you can activate a different title. Subscriptions will allow for 1, 2 or 3 titles to be activated at the same time.

If you think about this it's what Netflix and Lovefilm and other game rental sites are already doing. This simply changes the delivery method to digital download rather then disks through post.

With digital download to own as well as to rent the developers get the money and not Game or retailers.

But Originals cathalog is going to be removed?

I don not support 2nd hand market (well, at least where I live), it's outrageous the price they give for my precious games. I keep them all, one day I'll give them to a museum or something, they will be used and valued again.

miiiguel, they aren't removing them, they are going to be part of the Games of Demand service, so you'll still be able to get them.

@ lawlost

Bang on, and while digital delivery copies will retain the same RRP as a boxed copy they'll be strangling the early adopters who, as you say, won't want to risk their money on something they can't trade in. Reduced day 1 sales aside, without the pre-owned market the specialist retailer presence will shrink as the profit per game sold is ridiculious in many cases. They'll simply have to close up stores in some cases and that could stand to hurt the day-to-day visibility of the game industry to shoppers.

I've nothing against it, but they should be cheaper than the physical copies. You get no manual and you can't sell it on, so why would I bother?

I buy a load of stuff on Steam, but only when it's deal of the week and a crime not to.

I welcome this, as a ps3 owner, the 360 grass always looks greener. I think I would purchase a 360 in a heartbeat if they would remove the very loud jet engine dvd player. Also games on demand would allow for stealth purchases that the missus wouldn't notice... Rifles with chainsaws attached and digital distribution are making the 360 look very attractive at the moment.

Why do people buy the Limited or Special Editions of films or games?

Because they want to be able to display the item proudly on their shelf (in a materialistic manner) - because it could be worth a few bob in the future or at the very least some of the cost of purchase could be recouped.

A lot of people want the sense of ownership over a purchase; to hold the product, to gaze over the packaging.

/Bateman cold sweat

I can see the worth of digital distribution for portable platforms and acknowledge that some people prefer to be clutter free, but for the distribution of games to go completely digital would alienate a lot of potential customers.

@TheHuRTLoCKeR: I think I would purchase a 360 in a heartbeat if they would remove the very loud jet engine dvd player.

Since the NXE, you can install games to the HDD and not have the disc drive spinning throughout the game. I suppose downloading would eliminate the need for the disc in the drive all together.


I'd hate to see boxed games go away. I still miss big box PC games tbh.

@optimusprym8
There should be some way of selling them on though, I have loads of arcade games I no longer play and would love to be able to get even half the points back by "returning" it to MS

That is a brilliant idea; allow people to "return" the game for half points back. Nice one.

Personally I'm less and less looking forward to this "digital only" future unless they drop their prices. The overcharging on Steam (for example) is ridiculous when you can get a game for about half price from most local or online stores a week or two after launch.

I'm willing to bet/hoping sales will plummet when they try to charge people RRP for games that have been out a year and they'll be busy looking for another scapegoat to blame their poor sales on.

I'd be willing to bet that the RRP of these digital only games will be the exact same as the current RRP despite the reductions in cost. They'll no doubt try to spin it that the new medium has huge hosting costs or whatever but when you take production costs, distribution costs and retailer and distributor margins out of the picture they could sell the games for about a fourth of current RRP and maintain their current profit margin, charging any more than a half of current RRP is just plain nuts, trying to charge £40 is stark-staring insane.

@ Human: thks, that's good. More choices can only be good thing.

I would imagine over time the prices of digital distribution will drop as it's footprint grows. However until that happens, retailers still hold power over distributors and publishers and so, the prices will have to remain similar in order to appease them

I honestly do not get the attachment people feel to boxes. Do you buy games to look at on your shelf or to play?

That is a brilliant idea; allow people to "return" the game for half points back. Nice one.

It is zero-cost set of 1s and 0s that has no physical value. No game company, least of all Microsoft, is ever going to give you money for you to return it. They might as well pay you to throw your game in the bin.

"I honestly do not get the attachment people feel to boxes. Do you buy games to look at on your shelf or to play? "

Both. Among otherthings aesthetical value of the package, the content it has. It's like books (if you dig them), you can't really compare a pocket version to a beatifull hardcover version. Aesthetics.
Neo-Realism sucks, makes way too much sense for these days.

I think most of you are missing another huge elephant in the room this week: if you have paid to "own" a game but can only store a limited number on your (max) 120GB drive, there's going to be a reasonable amount of re-downloading and deleting going on.

What then, pray, are we to do when MS keep fucking up their marketplace servers for protracted periods like the last 48 hours?

Quite apart from the trade-in/price issue they need to sort their damn servers out.

I think both can, and should coexist. I can't see a single reason not to.

It'll hurt their Christmas and birthday trade too. Old Gran is hardly going to hop online to get her grandson a game. If she happened by a shop on the street however, that is another matter.

@skillian
It is zero-cost set of 1s and 0s that has no physical value. No game company, least of all Microsoft, is ever going to give you money for you to return it. They might as well pay you to throw your game in the bin.

Yes, I know that, and that's precisely what they're doing: paying you to bin the game, they don't resell it. However they're not giving you money, they're giving you a discount towards another zero-cost set of 1s and 0s, it's a "you didn't like that one? Next game half price or two thirds price" offer that will appease people who trade in games and encourage people to take risks on game purchases because you can get some of your cash back if you don't like it.

The alternative that we have now is that you buy a game through digital download, dislike it and you can't "trade it in", so as Lawlost stated you're reluctant to buy another one. Of course if you later on decide that you shouldn't have traded it in you have to buy it again.

I stand by it, it's a great idea that could lead to increased sales and revenue. I can't see the publishers buying into it though.

God does not condone digital distribution.

@Moribundman
What then, pray, are we to do when MS keep fucking up their marketplace servers for protracted periods like the last 48 hours?

Really? They keep fucking up their servers do they? When was the last time it messed up like this? How often does it happen?

2nd hand market should be banned and all games should cost the same as 2nd hand games do already...

Job done...

All money goes to the developers and everyone else gets cheaper games....

Will it happen?

No.

Hopefully Digital Download will make it more likely to happen, but i fear EA will never drop their prices even if they can't be sold 2nd hand.

@skillian

"It is zero-cost set of 1s and 0s that has no physical value. No game company, least of all Microsoft, is ever going to give you money for you to return it. They might as well pay you to throw your game in the bin."

Its not that straight forward. If they give you back half the points cost, they will still get those points back again when you buy another game, PLUS the same amount of points again to make up the full cost of the new title. Now perhaps you would have bought the new title anyway, but perhaps not (I know I wouldn't have bought my first Guitar Hero bundle if I'd not been able to trade games in against it).

Its the same as supermarkets discounting stuff below profit margins to get you in the door. Retail is a complex business, and should not be viewed as if all purchases made are in islation from each other. What any retailer really wants at the end of the day is a bunch of your money in their bank account - the actual number of individual items you bought is not so important.

@MrChuckles

"2nd hand market should be banned and all games should cost the same as 2nd hand games do already...

Job done...

All money goes to the developers and everyone else gets cheaper games....

Will it happen?

No."

The reason being is that your "job done" plan is rather unsurprisingly not as workable as your snappy sentences make out. Prohibition of second hand game sales? Really? Good luck policing that one.

Policing second hand game sales would be the like the law that you can't show a dvd you purchase to more than 2 people at a time or something like that.

Surely with the introduction of this service it's about time MS introduced a HDD that is upgradeable to whatever size you want.
Deleting and downloading again will be a right pain in the arse if you don't have a 250G+ HDD.

Yeah even more so they should lower the prices on their current hdd raping.

digital distribution would work nicely if the savings where passed on to the consumer.

However it seems that microsoft are creating another monopoly here, if I want to download games for my xbox 360 I can only get them from one place ie microsoft - surely that is anti competitive and allows them to set prices as they wish

as for the hard drive space issue whats the attach rate for xbox - something like 7-8 games per console? with a 120 gig hdd you could fit around 24 games on it - I've had my xbox since launch and I'm only just approaching that amount.

The best idea i've seen here is Johnhost's idea of a lovefilm type subscription

@sneetch: the reason you're able to sell your boxed games second hand is because there is a finite number of games in the marketplace- for a lot of titles the only option is to buy second hand as no new copies exist, supply cannot meet demand.

Given that, as mentioned upthread, download games are zero-cost collections of 0s and 1s, there is an infinte number of copies to be had, and supply will always meet, or even exceed, demand. You can try to sell your games second-hand if you'd like, but good luck finding someone who wants to buy, or a middleman (as GAME is today) willing to take that risk when supply is so abundant.

Don't worry, though. Games will get cheaper- look at the immediate race to the bottom we've seen with both XB Community Games and the App Store.

Although having to be connected to the internet / Live in order to play the games will piss me off as often take my HDD round to a mate's house and sometimes have issues with getting DLC etc to be available still (Rock Band).

Microsoft promises a new games-on-demand title each week, and will let buyers use credit cards directly instead of having to convert to Microsoft Points.

Why don't they do this with all the stuff on Xbox Live Arcade?

I'm sick of paying money for points on XBox Live Arcade and Wiiware. The Playstation Network wasn't so bad to begin with but now you have to add multiples for £5 to your account.

Paulie_P you only increase store credit in mutiples of £5 on PSN. If it's just one item you are buying (and it's over £5) you pay that amount only.

well if they were to do this, they would have to fix the download system, you cant pause a download (i think) which is a pain in the arse

I think people are missing the main point of this service. Remember it's old games not new games for a start. Anyway here's an example situation: Overlord II is coming out soon, and you heard good things about the original so fancy buying it and playing it before the sequel arrives. You could trawl through the internet or rumage through the secondhand section in your local Game/Game Sation/CEX only to never find it or you can press a few buttons on your 360 and start playing in less time than a trip to the shops would take. Sure it'll possibly be cheaper in store and you can't sell it on but it's there for convinience. Use it, don't use it, it's there if you need it, like the local takeaway when you haven't got round to doing a proper shop.

@YoungPayters Yes you can pause downloads, but they are in the background anyway so you can play anything or do anything in the mean time anyway. It even pauses automatically if you start playing online so you don't have bandwidth chokes, and will continue downloading in standby as well. Aside from automatically turning your 360 on when you purchase something from xbox.com (it starts when you next turn on your machine) I really don't see how they could improve their service.

Second hand games ARE only profitable to the resellers, who can make profit EACH and EVERY time they sell on a product, and people like us who hands it in ONCE only getting a discount, or a proportionately small cash for the game.

Blockbusters in my local area NOW have 50 percent shelf spaces dedicated to the games and 70 percent of it is second hands, BIG business that are making money. Roll on 10 years and where everything will be digitial downloads then Blockbusters will be gone and an antique of the physicial products age.

Software is a software, whether contained in a box or downloaded. People should acknowledge this is the future, Apple stores are ALL digitial AND nothing boxed.

Publishers and Devs will be correct to see this as a way forward and to ensure they can maximise their earnings. I dont question that it would be less attractive if they dont reflects this into their pricing and this must be carried out properly. We can always vote with our wallet but physical products now have a limited shelf life and rantings wont change it.

@ GamesConnoisseur, you are forgetting that people who buy games in the first 2 months of release do so on the basis that they are going to sell these games on, yes the retailer who resells the game makes a tidy profit, probably better than on a new game sale, but the producer and the licensor have already had their cut from the first sale.

@optimusprym8

I'm afraid Microsoft wouldn't really benefit in anyway by allowing people to return the games, it's not like they can resell em or anything since it's all digital :) Most likely it would just mean a decrease in sales or nothing changed, but definitely not an increase, I highly doubt that.

I think some are forgetting about gamers selling games on ebay or to friends, not all 2nd hand sales are done by Game etc But game developers still don't want this, selling the game privately is still considered "second hand piracy" apparently. People have a point about Game/gamestation etc 2nd hand sales but the day when you have to pay £40 for a download of a full game and then you can only delete is the day gaming can fuck off. I often sell my games I get bored of, I sold the riddick game and probably use the money for Overlord 2,

I really don't see downloads have a fair price especially with MS pricing and ubisoft's claims about next gen gaming budgets (also there is lack of demos to try recently). Thankfully full price downloads are way off yet.
Voting with your wallets is not much good as there is gamers that have more money than sense, crappy DLC is proof of this

Bigger hard drives are needed if you can download loads of games, 120GB is NOT enough space, at least a 500GB one also make them cheaper, or let us plug in a USB external Hard drive.

I fully support Downloadable games, I have at least 100 Games on Steam (101 tomorrow now Oblivion has arrived) and many others from Direct 2 Drive, Gamesplanet and GOG. This is the future, get rid of the boxes...

£40 is too much for a download that you can't sell on. Especially considering we pay way too much in the UK anyway.

Would people prefer £20 (for new games) but you can't sell it on later? Let's face it, cutting out the resale factor of buying something is a pretty good reason for chopping the price. Do I buy games expecting to sell them on later? Not always. But that's not the point. With digital downloads comes lack of ownership. You don't own anything real, just a license, which is a few bytes of information on a server. You lose your ability to sell on the object on the grey market.

We might buy a game on disc at £40 and then sell it back later for £20-£25 on ebay, or less later on in store, making the real cost of a game to us only £20-£25. People who buy it off us then would have to sell it back for even less. Rightly so. The disc is older, with scratches now. The manual is a bit dog-eared. The box is a bit yellowed. You lose a sense of ownership in that alone. You pay less for the product.

Eventually all games will be released this way day and date. The fact that they'll start with older titles just means we'll get shilled even more - they'll be able to knock down the price since they're older titles, but will the prices be comparable to ebay? No. You'll pay premium just to download a file, which let's face it costs Microsoft very little/nothing in terms of server charges spread out over masses of subscribers.

I hope they prove me wrong.

"I think some are forgetting about gamers selling games on ebay or to friends, not all 2nd hand sales are done by Game etc But game developers still don't want this, selling the game privately is still considered "second hand piracy" apparently."

Nonsense. I doubt even Nintendo care about that. What pisses people off is specialist shops selling second hand product over new. I'd agree with GamesConnossieurs comment that 70% of their stock is pre-owned (and about 5quid cheaper too).

I seriously can't understand why people buy preowned in Game etc. I can understand on the other hand why they sell on ebay.

@beemoh
@sneetch: the reason you're able to sell your boxed games second hand is because there is a finite number of games in the marketplace- for a lot of titles the only option is to buy second hand as no new copies exist, supply cannot meet demand.

Given that, as mentioned upthread, download games are zero-cost collections of 0s and 1s, there is an infinte number of copies to be had, and supply will always meet, or even exceed, demand. You can try to sell your games second-hand if you'd like, but good luck finding someone who wants to buy, or a middleman (as GAME is today) willing to take that risk when supply is so abundant.

Yes beemoh, I do completely understand the nature of digital content you on the other hand seem to have missed my point by several miles.

I think the high cost of games on services like steam is pretty much only because there isn't much retail knowledge in that area yet.

When you think about it usually the distributor/publishers like ea/atari etc would usually just say here have x thousand copies of our game for x amount get their money from amazon/argos adn forget about it. Any other the discounts etc will likely be handled by the retail outlet who know how to sell to consumers and what stock they need to turn over or can make a loss on.

Now you have the wholesaler selling to the consumer - and they just don't have the experience in that. So they post their game on Steam and forget about it.

As to 2nd hand games I don't really agree with it but you can't begrudge the retailers trying to make a profit - I believe they are only getting 10% of the sale on the game so who can blame them for trying to get a bit more margin on them?

The real problem isn't the download service providers or the boxed product retailers its the distributers. Distribution wholesalers kill small game shops on new product and drive up second hand sales in reputable shops. The distribution wholesalers are the same as the bannana companies in south america.

The cost of games isn't driven up simply by price gouging but by the number of players in the chain from studios, companies, distributers, shippers, retail.

When I worked for a publisher, the distributors and retailers threatened to refuse to stock titles if the prices for direct digital downloads through the company store were significantly lower than the high street price. When this vice like grip is released, then digital downloads will get sensible prices and become more viable option. Still, as expressed above, still plenty of other issues to sort out as well.

if you believe downloads will come down in price after getting rid of disc format then you are bit too trusting. It will be the publishers who will have vice like grip on prices eg Modern warfare 4 download = £49.99 They will just spout server maintenance costs or inflated production costs and gamers will BUY another modern warefare game (if its good as CoD4 and MW2)

What developers and publishers could do, make sure the game is good enough to worth keeping, I still have Fallout 3 from release day and also Mass effect. On the other hand I picked up bionic commando cheap and its getting traded or sold as the game design is crap, the developers seem clueless and no way deserve any more money from the game