Mafia Review

By Gestalt Published 6 September, 2002

Review - the mob's answer to Grand Theft Auto falls flat on its face

Version tested: PC

As Far Back As I Can Remember, I've Always Wanted To Be A Gangster

01b

A good ol' fashioned Tommy Gun shoot-out

I have a confession to make - I'm a gangster movie fanatic. Anything from Hollywood classics like Goodfellas and Donnie Brasco to oriental films like Sonatine and the Young & Dangerous series finds a special place in my heart (and my DVD collection). On the face of it then, Mafia should be the perfect game for me, melding an excellent prohibition era storyline with third person action, a wide range of driveable vehicles and a whole city for players to explore. Unfortunately, while it's a great concept, the implementation is lousy.

Things start off in promising fashion, with a beautifully cinematic introduction which sees your character Tommy Angelo squealing to the cops in exchange for protection, having done something to upset his former employer Don Salieri. The entire game is played out in a series of flashbacks as Tommy tells the cops his life story, starting in 1933. At the time you were a humble taxi driver, but after a high speed car chase ends in a crash, a pair of fleeing gangsters requisition your cab as a getaway vehicle. Before long you're diving through the streets of the city of Lost Heaven in an attempt to shake your pursuers and deliver the wiseguys to Salieri's bar.

What follows is a series of missions scattered across five years, with Tommy joining the mob and becoming a trusted lieutenant of the Don, carrying out burglaries and assassinations and escorting trucks of bootleg liquor for the mob. Along the way you'll cross paths with a rival mafia boss, and eventually you're caught in the middle of a full scale gang war.

What Am I, A Schmuck On Wheels?

02b

Oooh, 65 horsepower. Would it help if I got out and pushed?

The devil is in the details though, and it's here that Mafia falls short. The main problem is that Illusion seem to have tried too hard to replicate the success of Grand Theft Auto 3, and Mafia's 1930's setting just doesn't suit that kind of gameplay.

Where GTA3 is packed full of fast, exciting cars to steal and drive, Mafia is stuck with lumbering clunkers that hobble along at a snail's pace and accelerate from nought to sixty in a time that is measured in minutes rather than seconds. Handling is awful, not because Illusion have done a bad job, but because the cars of that age really weren't that much fun to drive. And don't even think of driving up a steep hill - you could get out and walk faster. As such, forcing you to drive to and from Salieri's bar in almost every single mission is just sheer bloody mindedness, and the drudgery of making your way back and forth across town within the 40 mph speed limit without running any red lights or, well, having any fun, soon becomes incredibly repetitive. Dare to break the speed limit (assuming your car can go that fast) and the cops will be all over you like a bad suit, and whereas in GTA3 this is half of the fun, in Mafia it's just something that gets in the way of you completing your mission. There are multiple wanted levels, but these simply show how far you've succeeded in distracting the cops from their doughnuts - you won't have to worry about the FBI chasing you around, just a few cops with handguns.

The game has also taken a leaf from GTA3's book when it comes to save games, or the lack thereof. There's no way to manually save your position, and although the game does at least autosave at set points in most missions, these are few and far between and often stupidly placed. For example, in one mission you find yourself caught in an ambush in a multi-storey car park. Now, the logical place to autosave would be when you reach your meeting place on the top floor, just before the shooting begins. Instead it autosaves at the beginning of the cinematic showing you driving up to the front of the building, leaving you to skip through two cutscenes and climb three flights of stairs before you can get back into the action if you have to restart the level.

You Gonna Let Him Get Away With That?

03b

The garage level. Bring me the head of the man that designed this mission.

This wouldn't be too bad if it wasn't for the fact that the missions are often rigidly prescripted, leaving you no room to show initiative. For example, even if you escape from the garage, Tommy will just keep repeating over and over again "I think I'm missing something", "I've still got a job to do" until you get fed up and go back inside. As it turns out, the only way to complete this mission is to kill everyone in the garage and then drive out in a particular truck.

It doesn't help that combat is downright lethal; a few lucky shots is enough to take you down, and a close-up encounter with a pump-action shotgun will kill you instantly. Even if you manage to keep Tommy in one piece, the chances are that one of the two AI sidekicks you have with you in the garage mission will get killed, resulting in a "game over" screen. These computer controlled mobsters are utterly moronic, either running off ahead of you and getting themselves killed or falling behind and refusing to budge while you take on an entire army single-handed. I've seen them run towards a car of machinegun-toting gangsters and get ripped limb from limb without batting an eyelid, and a couple of times they've even quite merrily walked into a flaming inferno left behind by a Molotov cocktail, eventually falling to the ground as a charred corpse a few seconds later.

If I'd actually bought the game, I think I would have uninstalled it and returned the damn thing at this point, as it took me over an hour to finally clear the garage level. This one mission manages to combine every design flaw in the game in a single location. The AI sidekicks are dense, the odds overwhelming, the autosave position poorly placed, the scripting unforgiving and, if I need healing, the only first aid station in the entire level is where? Right next to the exit, the one place where you couldn't possibly need it. Get that man a pair of concrete boots. To add insult to injury, the behaviour of a few of your enemies is prescripted, causing them to run to exactly the same spot every time you play the level. And they won't do anything until they reach that waypoint, even if you're standing there waiting for them with a tommy gun in your hand. Wonderful.

Am I Here To F*ckin' Amuse You?

04b

It might look pretty, but there's actually a bloody huge skyscraper at the end of this road. Unfortunately you can't see it because of the game's lousy draw distance.

These kinds of stupid little slips are present throughout the game to varying extents. In one mission, for example, you are told to "lose the tail". Assuming that it meant I should .. well, lose the tail, I proceeded to drive at breakneck pace through the city until the car that had been chasing us got stuck in the traffic. On reaching Salieri's bar I was rewarded with the message "lose the tail". Apparently Illusion's idea of losing a tail is to massacre everyone in the car and the bar across the road, and then drive off at 40 mph. Of course, by this point I'd lost the tail so thoroughly that I couldn't find it again, so I had to start the mission again. Which, naturally, meant going right back to where I began outside Salieri's bar, and driving half way across town again to get to our objective.

The same sloppy approach seems to have been taken to coding the AI for the traffic and pedestrians that fill the streets of Lost Heaven. People will park a car and climb out on the street side, then casually walk around the front of their car as slowly as they can as a line of cars forms behind them. None of these drivers have the imagination to go around the pedestrian, although sometimes they will drive through him, leaving him lying flat on his face on the road. Cars also jump red lights, crash into things and get stuck turning in front of each other at junctions - sit around long enough and every car in the city will eventually end up in the resulting traffic jam. And at least one junction just doesn't work at all, with cars constantly diving across the pavement to go around the corner or ramming into a lamp post instead of using the tarmac. As for public transport, forget about it. Tram drivers are clearly psychotic, as they stop for no man, quite happily ploughing through traffic at a snarled junction as if none of the cars were there. Of course, if I try this trick I get police from all over the city chasing me around.

Which brings us neatly to the Free Ride mode, which lets you roam around the city to your heart's content. You can drive a mob car and battle rival gangsters, just like the vigilante missions in GTA3. You can drive a taxi and earn fares, just like in GTA3. In fact, the whole thing is a pretty blatant rip-off of GTA3, but thanks to the slow oldsmobiles, the shoddy AI and the lack of fun things to do, it just isn't anywhere near as free form or entertaining. Mafia even lacks the graphical polish of GTA3 in some areas. Cars are nicely detailed but far too shiny, and the reflections just don't look natural. Characters have almost photo-realistic faces and the developers have had a decent stab at lip-synching for the cutscenes, but the rest of their bodies are blocky and lack detail. The real problem though is the city itself, which looks beautiful but suffers from appalling scenery pop-up. While this isn't noticeable a lot of the time, whenever you drive down a long straight street or go across a bridge you'll see entire blocks of the city appearing out of thin air right in front of you, which is distracting to say the least.

Forget About It

Mafia was a great idea and the storyline is brilliant, but we're here to play the game, not admire its narrative structure. At times it can be a lot of fun, but there are so many dumb little design flaws and annoying niggles that you'll need a lot more patience than I have to perservere with it. If you can overlook the AI and graphical flaws and don't mind repeating a few excessively difficult missions over and over again until you get them perfect, then you might find some enjoyment here. Otherwise I'd recommend you wait for GTA Vice City, which will hopefully fulfil all our gangster fantasies Scarface-style.

4 / 10

Read the Eurogamer.net scoring policy
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Comments (267) Latest comment 11 months ago

Comments for this article are now closed, but please feel free to continue chatting on the forum!

  • LaundroMat #1 10 years ago

    Oo-er.

  • Errol #2 10 years ago

    I Like the 'Goodfellas' paragraph titles.

    If only this game had been as good as that film ...

    Edited by Errol at 06/09/02 @ 11:36

  • Errol #3 10 years ago

    Apparently Illusion's idea of losing a tail is to massacre everyone in the car and the bar across the road, and then drive off at 40 mph

    lol.

    ps. Great review by the way. One of the more entertaining pieces of work that I have read in a while (except my life history ....)

  • Super Stu #4 10 years ago

    Vice City. I don't think I'm looking forward to a game so much, with the possible exception of GTA4 ;)

    Oh and erm Mario Sunshine, of course.

  • Errol #5 10 years ago

    The game I'm looking forward to most is Battlefield: 1942.

    It has quite simpy changed the face of multiplayer gaming.

  • Errol #6 10 years ago

    Mafia strikes me as being that strange sort of game that you love, but hate at the same time.

  • Blerk #7 10 years ago

    Super Stu - Vice City is GTA 4

    No it isn't. GTA4 is in development for (hopeful) release next year. GTA:VC is just an enhancement of the GTA3 engine, whereas GTA4 is another 'start from scratch' project.

  • Mr_Sleep #8 10 years ago

    I should be receiving a copy at some point today...oh well.

    One question, are these problems patchable, ergo will they end up sorting out these problems, or are they so serious that they can never be rectified.

    On that note i have often wondered why review sites don't do a pre-patch/post-patch section where they say how much the game has been improved by patches/mods

  • DocX #9 10 years ago

    Nice review that's restored my faith in EG somewhat since the recent big ads & post censorship that has been going on lately.

  • Mr_Sleep #10 10 years ago

    I am not going to ask how you have been playing it for so long when it only got released today ;)

    We can only hope H&D 2 will be a return to form.

    What form though? I enjoyed H&D but if anything Mafia is very close to that since H&D was a very finikity and annoying game, yes i enjoyed it but it was at times very poorly implemented.

  • IgWannA #11 10 years ago

    odd it only got 4 out of 10. everywhere else i read gave it pretty high scores and some people i've spoken to say it's one of the best games they've ever played..

  • Errol #12 10 years ago

    The final score is irrelevant. I did not even look at it. The review alone is enough to make me never go anywhere near this particular piece of software.

  • Gestalt #13 10 years ago

    "everywhere else i read gave it pretty high scores and some people i've spoken to say it's one of the best games they've ever played"

    I think it's one of those games that you either love or hate. There is a great game under there somewhere, but it's buried under so many stupid little design flaws that it's hard to find, and the whole thing just frustrated me after a few hours. Kinda like Hidden & Dangerous really - great idea, flawed implementation.

  • Errol #14 10 years ago

    As I said earlier in the thread -

    Mafia strikes me as being that strange sort of game that you love, but hate at the same time

  • Super Stu #15 10 years ago

    Namridus... if they told us it was fab and having gone and bought it I found it to be utter shite, the review would have been pretty pointless, wouldn't it?

    No, we couldn't write better ourselves, but then I don't get paid to.

    I assume you criticise your government at some point - presumably you could do a better job? Exactly.

  • vagga #16 10 years ago

    Gestalt reviews game after playing it for 10 minutes shocker!

  • Nemesis #17 10 years ago

    Nam. tch.

    Really, honestly, it's only one score. If you wanna feel better, nose around on gamerankings and find a better score to justify the purchase.

    Edited by Nemesis at 06/09/02 @ 13:21

  • Errol #18 10 years ago

    Gestalt reviews game after playing it for 10 minutes shocker!

    I doubt very much whether this is the case. More like, 'Gestalt reviews game after playing it for a week'.

  • vagga #19 10 years ago

    seriosuly..
    "a few lucky shots is enough to take you down, and a close-up encounter with a pump-action shotgun will kill you instantly"

    Thats just crap. In any game that involves shooting that is the case. Shotguns up close are powerful, in Quake3, CS anything.

  • vagga #20 10 years ago

    good one namridus..

    http://www.gamerankings.com/htmlpages2/4807.asp

    But gestalt is right and the rest of the gaming world is wrong you know!!!!!

  • Slim #21 10 years ago

    One of Gestalts finest, once again proving that he's utterly unsuited for this job as a games reviewer.

    Some news: Mafia isn't gta3 mission pack 1930's, it's a completely different game. It's not even a gta style game, it's not supposed to be. It's a shooter set in a large city, with driving elements. The emphasis is on the shooting and the action, not the 'living breathing' city stuff that comes with gta3.

    I've just about completed it, and really enjoyed it. Once I'd got the 'this isn't gta3' thing out of my head, I've enjoyed it immesnely. It's a lot like hitman, mission based shooty action with a bit of brains.

    Oh, there are many ways to complete the missions by the way, and if you found levels like the car park fustratingly hard, its because you didn't find the alternative ways to do things.

    Give it up Gestalt. Please. Just flipping spare us and the poor games companies your jaded view on all things gaming. You're ruining what's now becoming one of the last great free websites alive.

  • Slim #22 10 years ago

    "Mafia is stuck with lumbering clunkers that hobble along at a snail's pace and accelerate from nought to sixty in a time that is measured in minutes rather than seconds" - only the first few cars are this poor, you didn't get very far, right?

    "Handling is awful, not because Illusion have done a bad job, but because the cars of that age really weren't that much fun to drive. And don't even think of driving up a steep hill - you could get out and walk faster. " - same, you get better cars as you go along, a nice incentive to progress for those of us who can be arsed to actually play and enjoy games.

    ""I think I'm missing something", "I've still got a job to do" until you get fed up and go back inside. As it turns out, the only way to complete this mission is to kill everyone in the garage and then drive out in a particular truck. " - Er, that'll be the truck full of boose that's the bloody mission objective.

    "It doesn't help that combat is downright lethal; a few lucky shots is enough to take you down, and a close-up encounter with a pump-action shotgun will kill you instantly"

    Which is how it should be. Stay distant from shotguns, and they will hardly touch you. It's all about the strategy of the fights.

    "Even if you manage to keep Tommy in one piece, the chances are that one of the two AI sidekicks you have with you in the garage mission will get killed, resulting in a "game over" screen" - You don't need to keep tommy alive, just the other two.

    "the only first aid station in the entire level is where? Right next to the exit, the one place where you couldn't possibly need it" - no, there's another first aid kit in the next level down from where you start, in the wire cage. Pay attention.

    "To add insult to injury, the behaviour of a few of your enemies is prescripted, causing them to run to exactly the same spot every time you play the level." - well, no it isn't. In fact, the best way to complete this level is to move cars on to the ramps, before you meet tommy so the bad guys don't swarm you, works a treat. Lots of ways to do things you see, a point you've utterly missed because you're too god damn idle to play stuff.

    I'm not going to go on. You're way wide of the mark with this through your own lazyness and jaded cynicism. Get a life.

  • Errol #23 10 years ago

    oooooooo - that was harsh !

  • Killerbee #24 10 years ago

    Eh, eh, Caaaaaalm down! :-)

  • Super Stu #25 10 years ago

    Namridus:
    And yes, I consider I can do it better myself

    Bollocks. There's a lot more to running a country than deciding whether or not to bomb Iraq.

  • Viktor #26 10 years ago


    What realism, what brilliant AI! Just move the cars to block them from climbing the ramps, that's what a real gangster would do! Perfect solution to a perfect game.

    And no, I don't think that blocking the AI with cars is a realistic, interesting solution.

  • st3ph3n #27 10 years ago

    Interesting review. Shame about the opinions (or should that be direct orders to change the score before they kill you threats) of some of the people leaving comments.

  • Mr_Sleep #28 10 years ago

    @Slim, one thing i will say in support of EG is, at least they are honest to their own opinions. They also quite often rate a game on the "fun" factor. I haven't played Mafia yet so I can't say whether Gestalt is right or wrong, what i will say is they are usually on the mark in my experience.

  • Super Stu #29 10 years ago

    Mr Sleep

    Let's face it, if all games don't get 10, people get pissy and acuse you of crap reviewing/fanboysim.

    God forbid people should be able to have an opinion.

  • Killerbee #30 10 years ago

    Slim - first of all, I haven't played that game so I can't really comment on what you or Gestalt are saying, but it strikes me that if someone like Gestalt who plays and writes about games for a living found this frustrating to play, then there's a fair chance many potential punters would too.

    And it's not fair to say that things get better as you get through the game, because that's just admitting that the early parts of it are poorly put together. GTA3 adds loads of stuff as you play through it, but the entertainment is there right from the beginning.

    Plus at the end of the day, it's just a review, an opinion. If you don't agree with it, just ignore it or offer your opinion in a reasoned way. There's no need to attack the reviewer! :-)

  • Slim #31 10 years ago

    re: the cars on the ramp, it's not the only way to complete the level. It's one of my faves, so I've done it a few times, and you can just go down guns a blazing if you want. It's just a bit easier if you block their advance with cars. They will blow those cars up too, the AI isn't too bad.

    MrSleep: I also like eurogamer a lot, and will take their opinions seriously in the main. Apart from gestalt. He seems to dislike all games, especially the hyped ones. I'm not sure if he does it for effect, or that he's really just a miserable idiot who's sick of games. Really annoys me when a gem like this comes along, and it gets a poor review from him once again. I can't imagine what the developers must feel.

    I wouldn't mind if he'd given it a fair shot, but as my other post says, he's missed out on some really obvious stuff.

  • Startled Pancake #32 10 years ago

    Edit: this contravenes our comments system policy. I've deleted the second instance of it too. Whether or not you agree with another person's opinion, we're not going to be the catalyst for childish bullying tactics. Wrong playground, sorry. -Tom
    Edited by Startled Pancake at 06/09/02 @ 14:40

  • Slim #33 10 years ago

    heh, well talk about hypocritical finishing your post off with an insult. I happen to love games, and think its important. Sorry if you don't, move along.

  • Slim #34 10 years ago

    Killerbee: Sure its an opinion, but it happens over and over again with gestalt. They put a comments system in here, so I'm going to use it. I presume its permitted to post negative comments in with all this kiss assing eurogamer fanboysim that most people fire out?

  • Mr_Sleep #35 10 years ago

    @Stu, i agree with you that generally (as seen previously on EG) that there is always somone arguing against the score. I recall a discussion about outlawing it all together...which i think is a good idea. I read Mojo and they don't bother with review scores, which in my opinion is a great idea :)

    @Slim, I usually agree with Gestalt's opinion, but not always, I don't think you are wrong to bring up alternate points to Gestalt, just merely it's a case of pointing these things out rather than insulting him along the way.

  • Slim #36 10 years ago

    I don't think I insulted him personally, unlike pancake, I really do believe he's got a cynical and jaded view on games that comes through in his reviews, which is what I pointed out. I've said for years that gestalt simply doesn't like games that much, his writing often comes over as extremly unenthusiastic and he regularly marks good games down.

    Oh, I agree about scores too, they're a daft idea.

    Edited by Slim at 06/09/02 @ 14:41

  • Errol #37 10 years ago

    Is Gestalt going to attempt to answer some of these unfounded attacks ?

  • Slim #38 10 years ago

    Unfounded? I posted examples!

  • Startled Pancake #39 10 years ago

    "I'm not going to go on. You're way wide of the mark with this through your own lazyness and jaded cynicism. Get a life." - Hmm.

    Anyway its friday afternoon and Im just having some fun. Ive got the game waiting for me at home, hope its not as bad as Gestalt reckons.

  • Errol #40 10 years ago

    Its worse.

  • Mr_Sleep #41 10 years ago

    @Errol, really? What is your problems with it?

  • Slim #42 10 years ago

    Comments that were about his gaming reveiwing, not anything personal.

    It's a good game, honest. Try it for yourself and let me know. It's a slow starter, thats true. The early cars are indeed very slow. Doesn't take long to pick up though, and becomes lots of fun. Don't expect GTA3 and you should enjoy it. It's very hard though, which I like, far too many easy games these days with daft save anywhere systems.

  • Super Stu #43 10 years ago

    Because it was released first. You'll notice The Getaway is being compared to GTA3, and that's been in development since Julius Caeser was in power.

  • Slim #44 10 years ago

    It's still a daft comparrision, mafia isn't really like gta3 at all, apart from in free-ride mode. And that's kind of a bonus game thing.

  • Mr_Sleep #45 10 years ago

    GTA 1&2 also featured the "living world" feel, so technically they all copy those innovations.

  • Gestalt #46 10 years ago

    "only the first few cars are this poor"

    They do get better over time (naturally), but even the later cars aren't that great, IMO anyway. It's not Illusion's fault, it's just that the time period they've chosen doesn't really fit the driving around being chased by the police style of gameplay, because your cars move fairly slowly, take forever to accelerate up to their top speed and spin at the slightest provocation.

    The problem is that the way the game is designed has you driving from A to B and back for no obvious good reason in almost every mission, which just highlights any shortcomings in the cars, AI and graphics.


    "You don't need to keep tommy alive, just the other two"

    Er .. Tommy is your character. You did play the game, right? ;)


    "the best way to complete this level is to move cars on to the ramps, before you meet tommy so the bad guys don't swarm you"

    Isn't that kinda cheating?

  • Slim #47 10 years ago

    "They do get better over time (naturally), but even the later cars aren't that great, IMO anyway. It's not Illusion's fault, it's just that the time period they've chosen doesn't really fit the driving around being chased by the police style of gameplay, because your cars move fairly slowly, take forever to accelerate up to their top speed and spin at the slightest provocation. "

    So what, you want a 30's mafia game to have people zooming round in modern day sportscars? It's supposed to take the feel of the period. The slower speed has its benefits too, the driving is more tactical, with blocking taking a part, and you can shoot out of the car. Did you finish the game by the way? And did you do the subquests to get the better cars?

    "The problem is that the way the game is designed has you driving from A to B and back for no obvious good reason in almost every mission, which just highlights any shortcomings in the cars, AI and graphics. "

    For no obvious reason? The driving is part of the game, you drove to where the mission takes place through this huge city. While you're driving, you have the oppurtunity to do some things that you clearly missed out on.

    "Er .. Tommy is your character. You did play the game, right? ;) "

    Oops, thought you meant the booze guy.

    "Isn't that kinda cheating?"

    No, it's an alternative method. Something you panned the game for not having. They drive their cars accross the ramps to stop you getting out, isnt it good that the game lets you do the same to them?

    Details that don't get away from the fact that this is a good and significant game. You do damage by slagging games like this without justification on a popular web site, it's just like max payne all over again. You read the hype, and the reality doesn't match it, so you slag it. You should review the game on its merits alone.

  • binky #48 10 years ago

    Im sure Gestalt has read these comments and rather than join in with the ranting he opted to leave the COMMENTS page as it is.

    slim ur entitled to ur view and its good to get another perspective to a game. but u could have aired your views without personal attacks on what u consider to be sloppy journalism. once again we need to point out that REVIEWS are opinions. Gestalt gave his, u gave yours. But due to Gestalt being an actual REVIEWER and writing a decent page or 2 about a game, rather than a rant ((this games SUCKS - this game RAWKS!!)) I think more ppl will probably listen to him, or at least take on board his comments and try before they buy.

    sheesh...

    Keep up the good work EG.

  • Slim #49 10 years ago

    xboxrox: well put, its a great game on its own merits, 8/10 is about right for me because of the fustrations with your companions ai mostly.

  • Errol #50 10 years ago

    "You don't need to keep tommy alive, just the other two"

    Er .. Tommy is your character. You did play the game, right? ;)

    lol.
    Edited by Errol at 06/09/02 @ 15:28

  • Slim #51 10 years ago

    I'd agree if I ranted, however I took the time to point out why I thought the review is flawed. I notice he's not bothered to respond to the majority of my points either.

  • Super Stu #52 10 years ago

    Slim

    Your comments were backed up pretty well, I thought. As you said, you didn't rant, you presented an argument.

    And then you went and lost all credibility with this comment

    Get a life

    For shame.

  • Gestalt #53 10 years ago

    "The driving is part of the game, you drove to where the mission takes place through this huge city"

    Yes, and generally speaking I found it quite dull and utterly pointless. I don't want to spend ages driving back and forth across town over and over again at 40mph whilst trying to avoid upsetting the cops, especially as it highlights problems like the poor draw distance and traffic AI.


    "You should review the game on its merits alone"

    I did, and I honestly didn't enjoy the game that much. It had its moments, but there were far too many silly little design flaws and frustrating bits for my taste. That's my opinion - feel free to disagree. But that doesn't make one of us right and one of us wrong.

  • Nemesis #54 10 years ago

    Blimey it's like Halo all over again eh.

    Having read other reviews for this, they all seem to concur that the driving sections just get in the way later on and that there are some AI issues. You can either sit and read reviews all day long or you can go out and get a game you feel you would enjoy playing. Really, are you to be dissuaded over a 4/10 score for a game you really wanted to play? Of course not.

    A 4/10 is a single opinion. It's subjective. You may enjoy parts the reviewer doesn't, you may be able to overlook AI issues or not be annoyed by save points. Onimusha was raved over, but it still had many issues. Borders. Savepoints, unskippable cutscenes and so on and so on, but I still managed to enjoy it.

    This is the advantage of the comments system, or it *should* be. Constructive comments by people that have played the game I enjoy reading.

    Bottom line. Get it, play it, come back and make comments. Read the review again and see if you still feel it's unfair.

    Cmon it's Friday. Let's not all be waking up tomorrow with a horsehead for company courtesy of EG!

  • Slim #55 10 years ago

    You'd think so, but there's people who've said in the comments that they won't be buying it as a result of this review, so it seems that's not the case.

    The driving is the weakest part of the game, which is why the gta3 comparrisions are so daft in this review. The games a lot more like Hitman or Max Payne.

    Gestalt: You don't have to drive at 40 and I imagine it would be boring if you did, the police are very easy to outrun/outfox.

  • Slim #56 10 years ago

    "You should review the game on its merits alone"
    "I did, and I honestly didn't enjoy the game that much"

    But you didn't, you compared it many times to gta3

  • Nemesis #57 10 years ago

    You'd think so, but there's people who've said in the comments that they won't be buying it as a result of this review, so it seems that's not the case.

    To base that on just one review would be rather niave I feel. Whilst I read the EG reviews, I wouldn't base all my purchasing choices based simply on one site. Jeez, some people put too much importance on reviews. Really, if you're not sure, download a demo first.
    Edited by Nemesis at 06/09/02 @ 15:57

  • Slim #58 10 years ago

    Yep, I agree its silly, but good reviews do sell games. I've been on the recieving end of publishers wrath enough times to know that.

  • Nemesis #59 10 years ago

    Well that's true Slim, but the longer you are online the more you come to realise not all sites are independant and to understand reviews are subjective at best. There are some sites I will not visit because I don't trust them.

  • Errol #60 10 years ago

    Let's not all be waking up tomorrow with a horsehead for company courtesy of EG

    *ZAPPED* That's enough bad head jokes for one thread - Ed
    Edited by Errol at 06/09/02 @ 16:04

  • Errol #61 10 years ago

    I thought that was quite funny - although perhaps a bit risque for a 'family' site.

  • Errol #62 10 years ago

    I suspected it might get edited though.

    I must be punished. I shall go away and beat myself.

    oooo matron !

  • Nemesis #63 10 years ago

    At least my head comment was on topic!

    Errol, behave. Chri$t it'll be a good day indeed when he finally gets a girlfriend.

  • Errol #64 10 years ago

    I have 52 already. My Saudi Arabian residence has its own private hareem for my personal use.

  • Pirotic #65 10 years ago

    Just to even things out, i think gestalt is spot on. i've spent ages trying to find this 'great game' everybodys been talking about but im affraid dispite all my effort i cannot see past all the annoyances.

    i spent ages installing all 3CD's too :p

  • Gestalt #66 10 years ago

    Yeah, it's pretty damn huge - three discs and it takes up 1.8Gb on your hard drive, with no minimum install option. Lucky I bought that 80Gb monster earlier this year. ;)

  • Gestalt #67 10 years ago

    "I would MUCH rather have this system than the save anywhere crap used in alot of games"

    On principle I agree with you - I'm not a big fan of games like Max Payne where you're quick saving every other step. The problem (as with so many things) is that the implentation in Mafia is poor - autosave positions are often in completely the wrong place.

    On the steamer level you have to start over from scratch if something goes wrong, and the whole thing seems to run on a timer, so however fast you get the gun you still end up waiting around for your target to emerge.

    In the garage level, the game autosaves just before you reach the car park, so you have to skip two cinematics and run up three flights of stairs to get back into the action.

    In other missions it doesn't autosave at all or not until you're half way through doing whatever it is you're doing, so if you get killed you go right back to Salieri's bar and have to drive out to the mission area again.

    This is just plain frustrating, especially if you lost because your sidekick ran off and got wasted or something else happened that you don't really have control over. What the game really needed was a system like Operation Flashpoint used, where you can save manually, but only (say) once per mission. That would have been a real life saver in Mafia and could have made the whole experience far less annoying.
    Edited by Gestalt at 06/09/02 @ 16:32

  • Errol #68 10 years ago

    Yeah, it's pretty damn huge

    No ... I'm not about to insert (hmmm) a risque 'joke' here. I was just going to say that reports I have read, say that the Unreal Tournament 2003 install is over 2gb, with no minimum install options.

  • Pirotic #69 10 years ago

    Off-topic, but did anybody notice how the westwood installers spool the music from the CD? while its trying to install.. reducing it to a snails-pace.

    sorry, i really hate westwood.. i always throw jabs in when i can ;)

  • Errol #70 10 years ago

    Yeah, I remember that. It was pretty annoying as I recall.

  • Slim #71 10 years ago

    I found the autosave just right for the most part, in fact the car park level was the only time it was really annoying, with the stairs, but even that didn't take long. Cut scenes didn't really mater as they're skippable. Still, a bit of replaying for a couple of the many levels seems like pretty weak justification for such a panning.

  • Errol #72 10 years ago

    4 out of 10 is not a panning. It is 4 out of 10.

    Thats an ok score. Just below average.

  • Slim #73 10 years ago

    The pannings in the text, errol, not the score. Perhaps if you'd unwrap yourself from whatever you're doing on gestalts leg you'd be able to post some sensible replies.

  • Killerbee #74 10 years ago

    4 out of 10 is not a panning. It is 4 out of 10.

    Thats an ok score. Just below average.

    It's not a panning, but 4/10 is definitely on the side of "don't buy this game" rather than "do buy it". If you read the reviews and base your purchases upon them then you would probably be dissuaded from buying Mafia by this article.

    Also, whilst I agree it's a good idea to read a variety of reviews rather than make your mind up based on just one or two, I find I do come to trust the opinions I read in some places more than others, and I tend to feel EG gives a pretty honest opinion that my own preferences broadly match. But equally, someone with different taste in games would disagree.

    On the basis of this review I wouldn't buy the game. But then, I wasn't planning to in the first place...

  • Super Stu #75 10 years ago

    Slim

    The pannings in the text, errol, not the score. Perhaps if you'd unwrap yourself from whatever you're doing on gestalts leg you'd be able to post some sensible replies.

    See Slim, I think you're having difficulty accepting other people's point of view without coming out with snide comments.

    In retort, I'll sneak in a quick "off school because your teacher hasn't had their security check through, is it?" comment.

  • Slim #76 10 years ago

    Errol didn't post a point of view, he posted a correction to something I said.

  • Errol #77 10 years ago

    Perhaps if you'd unwrap yourself from whatever you're doing on gestalts leg you'd be able to post some sensible replies.

    lol. I think Slim wins the award for the person least likely to debate in a sensible manner without throwing ridiculous insults at people.


  • Errol #78 10 years ago

    Anyway, I can play your game as well, Slim you miserable excuse for a human being.

    edited out of respect for EG.
    Edited by Errol at 06/09/02 @ 17:21

  • Slim #79 10 years ago

    Well, at least I'm managing to put some points relevant to the discussion in my posts, unlike your insightful "lol'ing". Oh that last post was impressive, completely proving what I said before I read it. Now, going to say anthing about the subject at hand, or are you going to carry on with the playground stuff?
    Edited by Slim at 06/09/02 @ 17:20

  • Gestalt #80 10 years ago

    Er .. enough of the personal abuse folks, and that goes for all of you. Read our comments system policy if you're in any doubts.

  • Errol #81 10 years ago

    Gestalt - just remember what Slim said; it was a direct attack.

    Slim said :

    I'm not going to go on. You're way wide of the mark with this through your own lazyness and jaded cynicism. Get a life

  • Slim #82 10 years ago

    All my comments are relating to the review, a fact that seems to be flying some way above your head. Starry eyed love for gestalt seems to be making it a little hard for you to think clearly.

  • binky #83 10 years ago

    **YAWN**

  • Moonbender #84 10 years ago

    Gotta love Gestalt's controversial reviews, and if it's only for the comments. :)

  • vagga #85 10 years ago

    Maybe errol is Gestalts guaridan angel? Help him and back him up and keep him warm at night?

  • binky #86 10 years ago

    maybe Errol is just bored this afternoon and is trying to wind u up? (gah! :)

  • vagga #87 10 years ago

    maybe were just bored this afternoon and doing the same to him ;)

  • Errol #88 10 years ago

    Starry eyed love for gestalt seems to be making it a little hard for you to think clearly

    If you really think I'm like this, then you obviously have not been viewing this site for very long. I've been mildly annoying gestalt with frequent references to various 'babes' etc for some time.

    I just think that your comments about Gestalt were a bit below the belt, frankly. A bit uncalled for.

  • Alastair #89 10 years ago

    In fact I for one have quite missed Errol's comments about Isla Fisher over the past few weeks.

  • jaa #90 10 years ago

    I don't play PC games so I'm not really interested in this game. But I would like to say something:

    It's perfectly natural to disagree. I still don't agree with the score EG gave to games like GunValkyrie, Jet Set Radio Future or Halo (they deserved more) or Rallisport Challenge, Kessen II or Medal of Honor: Frontline (they're not bad games - RS is quite good in fact - but, for me, they deserved less). But the main problem lies with the text, not the score. Negative points, like bad news, tend to stand out more. And this review (unlike Halo's, also by Gestalt) seems to focus only on the negative points of the game - and to present them in a way that makes small details seem like big issues. Small details can be important and should be mentioned in a review. But, knowing almost nothing about this game, I got a very negative image from Gestalt's review. Having read other reviews in the last few hours (and Slim's comments, perfectly reasonable and mostly well put), I now think this is a game I could - maybe - enjoy.

    Gestalt: isn't it possible that, maybe because you were expecting a lot from this game, you were too harsh? Is this game really a clearly below average (almost bad) game or a potentially great game that fails greatness by a few points?

  • Errol #91 10 years ago

    Its been a good thread this one. EG has not had a serious conflict in opinions like this for a while. How about we all go off and play the game for a bit, and then reconvene here at a later date for a rematch ?

  • Slim #92 10 years ago

    Good points. I think where gestalt and I (and a lot of other posters) dissagree is that gestalt keeps saying its his honest opinion. Well, as a reviewer, I don't think its your opinion that's needed. It's not as simple as that. I've reviewed kids games for mags before, you can't pan them for being too easy and too silly, you've got to think of the target audience. Gestalt pans this for being too fustrating and for the cars not being to his liking, well someone who wants to play a game about the 1930's mafia (and would you buy it if you didn't?) would be naffed off if they were souped up 90's hot rods. You're reviewing it for your readers, not for yourself. I think this, and the fact that he always highlights the negative while missing the positive is why I get so annoyed with his reviews. Gestalt, you won't take any notice, but I urge you to read some other reviewers, such as the good ones here, and perhaps some of the better writers on gamespot and IGN. See how they balance the review, and tend to be more objective depending on how the game is targetted.

  • Errol #93 10 years ago

    Interesting points Slim. Fundamentally though, I feel that the points about the bad AI and bugs etc that gestalt made were fair. Those problems alone, are enough to ensure that I never go near this game (unless it is patched thoroughly).

    The review was funny, detailed and conveyed the overall problems with the game. To put it simply - very good games get good reviews. Shoddy ones like mafia do not (and they do not deserve them either).
    Edited by Errol at 06/09/02 @ 18:03

  • Gestalt #94 10 years ago

    At the end of the day a review is the opinion of the reviewer - nothing more, and certainly nothing less. If you start reviewing games based on whether you think somebody else might like them, you're kinda missing the point IMO. People can read a review and make up their own minds based on what we've said - some people might not be too bothered with the issues we raise, for others they might be a showstopper and a reason not to buy that game.

    In the case of Mafia, personally I found the game frustrating, and there were far too many rough edges for me to really enjoy it most of the time. But that doesn't mean that you won't enjoy it.
    Edited by Gestalt at 06/09/02 @ 18:05

  • Killerbee #95 10 years ago

    There seem to be a lot of players that has an ability to adopt a hype and then savour that good feeling while playing the hyped game even if the game really isn't that good.

    I can sympathise with that. When I first got Black & White I raved about it to anyone who would listen. I've never really decided I didn't like it, but more sort of realised one day I'd not played it in months because I'd just got bored on Island 3. Maybe I will finish it one day, but the novelty of building villages just kind of wore off.

  • Slim #96 10 years ago

    "At the end of the day a review is the opinion of the reviewer - nothing more, and certainly nothing less. If you start reviewing games based on whether you think somebody else might like them, you're kinda missing the point IMO."

    I'm not surprised you disagree, but I still think you're wrong. In my example then, do we have to use kids to review kids software? Can only a housewife with four kids review family cars? No, and games are no different. I like the old cars, and I like the prohibition style and era, so I loved doddering down the roads in a car going 'put put put put' blasting my tommygun out of the window. I've certainly never played another game that captured the style of the period so accurately. Yet you completely missed that, and had no consideration for the target audiance at all. The review isn't for your benefit, its for your readers, and you're selfishness and lazy approach to writing reviews discretits this otherwise fine site in my opinion.

    "People can read a review and make up their own minds based on what we've said"

    Only if you cover the game fairly and balanced. You've barely listed any positives at all in your review, hows anyone supposed to make up their own mind from an innacurate review full of negitives?

    "- some people might not be too bothered with the issues we raise, for others they might be a showstopper and a reason not to buy that game. "

    Only true if the issues are accurate, and the plus points are also presented.

    "In the case of Mafia, personally I found the game frustrating, and there were far too many rough edges for me to really enjoy it most of the time. But that doesn't mean that you won't enjoy it."

    I did enjoy it, certainly one of the best this year, but as we've seen, people have made their mind up not to buy it based on your review.

  • Slim #97 10 years ago

    "Shoddy ones like mafia do not (and they do not deserve them either)."

    Errol, have you played mafia? You've made some comments that you won't be buying it, yet seem to know that it's not very good. How is this?

  • Slim #98 10 years ago

    Quayle, or it could be the other way around? Game is massively overhyped and the reviewer expected more? Seems to me Gestalt expected this to be some kind of GTA3 killer, and it definately isn't that: it's a different game completely.

    I wasn't actually aware of mafia at all until it landed on my desk, so I'm glad to say the hype didn't affect my judgement of it at all.
    Edited by Slim at 06/09/02 @ 18:46

  • Slim #99 10 years ago

    So you've played mafia then Quale?

  • Nobby #100 10 years ago

    what an awful and downright unprofessional review.

    If Gestalt had given the game a good review when he clearly didn't enjoy that game, that would be an unprofessional review.

    Remember, EG has often been right when they've given average reviews to hyped games. Just because they don't give a brilliant initial score and then admit it was too high when it's been deleted off everyone's hardrive two months later (B&W springs to mind) doesn't mean they aren't a professional gaming website, it just means they're less gullible than the other professional gaming websites.

    Anyone for tea? It's not really the same without otto, though, is it?

  • Gestalt #101 10 years ago

    "In my example then, do we have to use kids to review kids software"

    Dunno, but what I do know is that I'd rather not play 90% of kids' games, so you won't catch me reviewing them. There's no point reviewing something you don't really like and then saying "well, if you're a kid you might enjoy it" and giving it 8/10. ;) Same thing with Mafia. I didn't particularly enjoy it, so I'm not going to give it a high score and a glowing review just because someone else likes it.

    Bottom line - you have your opinion, I have mine. We're both entitled to those opinions. We're not entitled to jump around screaming and shouting, accusing each other of being lazy, stupid, jaded and incompetent.

  • Genome #102 10 years ago

    I don't trust just one review site. I look around and measure things up. EuroGamer says this game is "just below average" (journo speak for "crap";) and then nine other sites say it's wonderful. Ditto for the majority of magazines.

    I'm gonna go out on a limb and say that Gestalt's opinion is indeedily-doodely one that probably shouldn't be listened to in this case. If a huge majority of professional, unbiased games journalists love this game and one doesn't - who should you trust?

  • Slim #103 10 years ago

    Well, that explains it all really. You're not a reviewer at all, and eurogamer is your personal soapbox. I'd be interested to see the opinions of your fellow reviewers or even your employers on the subject. To take the view that a review is your personal opinion only and nothing to do with the target audiance for the product your reviewing would be fine for a personal website, not something you'd expect from a professional.

    Have you ever worked for other publications? Magazines, etc? Have you ever written about things other than games?

  • Slim #104 10 years ago

    Genome: good plan. Seen this?

    http://www.gamerankings.com/htmlpages2/4807.asp

    Mafia gets an average score of 89%

  • Moonbender #105 10 years ago

    Yes, and Black & White gets an average of 88%. LOL. qed

  • Slim #106 10 years ago

    Can't comment on the accuracy of that, never played it, don't really do god games. Dikatana gets 50% though, and I know that's rubbish, so it works for me.

  • Pirotic #107 10 years ago

    i dont think its a case of who you can trust, i think its simply a case of realising there are certain games which people either love or hate. he doesn't enjoy it, and i know a good few people who agree with him. if a game gets all-round slated reviews then its normally a put off, if there is a big difference in oppinion i'd rent the game first.

    i would never slag a reviewer off just because he didnt like a game i did, after all. if you know better post what you think, isnt that the whole point of the comments system.

    nobody wants a game to be bad, so i dont see why he would slate it when the PR company have sent it to him, doesn't make business sense to slate a game unless you really have to.
    Edited by Pirotic at 06/09/02 @ 20:16

  • Errol #108 10 years ago

    Errol, have you played mafia?

    Yes. At a freinds.

  • Errol #109 10 years ago

    And he didnt like it either.

  • Slim #110 10 years ago

    How did you manage that when it's only been released today.

    I'd also say that a quick go at a mates house wasn't enough to give it a fair appraisal.

  • [Alt][F4] #111 10 years ago

    "... and the fact that he always highlights the negative while missing the positive is why I get so annoyed with his reviews"
    I have nothing against that myself, although there is a positive thing or two if you look hard for those :).
    Anyhow, I usually read a few reviews of the game I'm on the verge of deciding to purchase or not, and when I see one done by Gestalt I know I'll get the real deal when it comes to the product's shortcomings. This is what I've come to expect from reading past entries, and do hope it won't change in the future. There is a pile of "goody don't take any chances if you don't have to" reviewers out there; it's refreshing to find others who are not afraid to speak their mind and put up a brave front against the legions of ignorant fans.

    "..you've got to think of the target audience. "
    This reasoning is totally flawed. The so called target audience, or the majority of the people who were looking toward the game and watching its development on the net, don't read reviews about what they have been eagerly awaiting for the past year.
    They go out and buy it the first day it's out.
    As a simple example, I guess I'm among the "target audience" for Biohazard games. The day the remake came out, you bet I was leaning my head against the glass in my local store, drool falling to the floor and awaiting the sound of opening lock with ever growing impatient moans.
    (Needless to say, the clerk did grab a bat and was rather unsure of himself when the bastard eventually opened the door with the help of a long stick. From a record distance mind you.)
    The reviews, at least as I see it, are primerly written for the people who are undecided, or for those who don't give a rat's @ss about the game and need a reason to give it a chance, a stab in the dark so to speak, or reaffirm their feelings about the particular genre they don't consider worthwhile to start with. The above main review did just that. If you're on the edge trying to decide about the game you just heard of, you don't want to read a review by a fan, since they will usually ignore some raugh cornerns which otherwise will propably bother a newcomer. You want to hear all the short comings and decide for yourself if they are relevant and to what extend can they affect your enjoyment.

    "...of the better writers on gamespot and IGN"
    I'm assuming this is a joke. At least in my eyes EG has alot more credibility then those two sites from my experience with their past reviews/scores.
    On the last note, Gestalt, come Sept.13th, I see a review by you on that day with anything less then 8/10 (I'm a reasonable man), know that I'll be out there looking for you :)

  • Errol #112 10 years ago

    Finally, somebody bothers to put the upstart Slim back in his box. Great post Alt F4.
    Edited by Errol at 06/09/02 @ 21:05

  • Slim #113 10 years ago

    That's not really what I mean by target audience. I'm not talking about specific fans of the game, like you mention with the ressie evil thing, I'm talking at the type of people the games are aimed at. I know someone who's been following mafia will have it pre-ordered months ago. But folks who quite fancy a 1930s experience will probably not, and may not even be aware of the game before it's shipped.

    As to the gamespot/ign stuff, they have good and bad writers, which is why I mentioned said the good ones only :-)

    Let's take gestalts reasoning, and apply it to genres, you'd have him slagging flight sims for being too fiddly, because he doesn't like flight sims. Or slagging platformers for having too many jumps because he doesn't like platformers. As a reviewer you've got to make the judgement that platforming fans like jumps! That flight sim nuts like a million controls! He doesn't like slow 1930's cars, well I'm saying that people who want to play an authentic prohibition game will want slow cars, so you have to make that point. It's not his opinion alone that matters, it's a judgement call, in my opinion.

    Shame I haven't got a little fanboy like errol to say 'hell yeah' on all the posts agreeing with me, it'd double the feedback count!
    Edited by Slim at 06/09/02 @ 21:44

  • Skeeve #114 10 years ago

    "This reasoning is totally flawed. The so called target audience, or the majority of the people who were looking toward the game and watching its development on the net, don't read reviews about what they have been eagerly awaiting for the past year."

    The target audience for any game that wants to make a decent profit is clearly far bigger than the rabid fanboy section of it and its that group that can be swayed one way or the other by a good or bad review.


    "I'm assuming this is a joke. At least in my eyes EG has alot more credibility then those two sites from my experience with their past reviews/scores."

    Surely a site could still have plenty of credibility if only one of their reviewers spent his time being deliberately controversial. ;-)

  • Slim #115 10 years ago

    By the way altf4, I wrote both the dino crisis and the Ressie Evil CV reviews for Eurogamer. Can't we be freinds? :-)
    Edited by Slim at 06/09/02 @ 21:51

  • st3ph3n #116 10 years ago

    Slim, two 9/10s for at best above average games. So you like your payoffs from games companies in cash, drink or freebies?

  • Moonbender #117 10 years ago

    A good review a Slim: "I played this game for the better part of the week, I won't tell you how much I like it or not, though, since my personal feelings shouldn't be relevant to your buying decision. In conclusion, I say some people will like it and are the target audience, while other people might not like it so much."

    Stunningly, this review holds true for virtually all games. Awesome!

  • Moonbender #118 10 years ago

    Of course, I only say that because I'm humping Gestalt's leg.

  • st3ph3n #119 10 years ago

    Moonbender, if your humping Gestalt's leg and Errol is taking care of the other one .... then what am I attached to?

    (you have my permission to delete this if I have crossed the line)

  • Slim #120 10 years ago

    Sadly the only thing I get from games companies is games. Yep, I gave them both 9/10, and I recon they deserve it, and by looking at gamerankings again Dino gets 8.5/10 based on 45 different reviews, and code veronic gets 9.3/10 based on 63 reviews. Are you saying we're all wrong/corrupt? Besides, I'm with a couple of other posters here, scores are daft, it's the text that matters.

    Moonbender, concetrate, and I'll explain it. Just because you're the target audience doesn't mean you'll like the game if its not good. So the reviewer, in my opinion, must rate the game for the audiance its based on. If its rubbish, then fair do's, but marking a 1930's game down on having authentic 1930's speed cars goes against what I'm saying. Got it? Marking mafia down because it isn't gta3 also fits with what I'm saying.

    It's like me reveiwing the latest rugrats game and complaining its too childish, see?

  • The Critic #121 10 years ago

    A couple of points.

    I used to be a games reviewer before I joined the shady world of PR.
    Firstly, most magazines/websites will give a game to someone who likes that type of game. There's no point giving a strategy game to someone who only loves first person shooters for example.

    Additionally, game reviews should be an objective analysis of a game, not subjective. The reason is very simple - there's a hell of a lot riding on a game and publishers are a very sensitive sort.
    It's a lot easier to stick to the facts rather than give a subjective view of a title. It keeps you out of hot water. If you mention a fault with a game that can't be argued with (ie it's a fact) then the publisher may not like your statement but can't really argue with it. If you say 'oh, well I just really hate cel-shaded graphics', for example, you're being subjective and are leaving yourself open to attack.

    Oh, and Slim, revealing that you used to write for EG around two years ago gives me the perception that you have a personal problem with Gestalt. Is this the case, or am I reading too much into it?
    Edited by The Critic at 06/09/02 @ 23:09

  • Slim #122 10 years ago

    Agreed on those points, except in a small team you might not have specialists in all the areas you need.

    No personal problem with gestalt, only met him once and he didn't say very much :-) I disagree with his approach to reviews, is all, I think its unfair.

    p.s. Just remembered, when I met him he was trying to play UT on a laptop with no 3d using one of those awful razor boomslang mousies. I did find that quite offensive :-)
    Edited by Slim at 06/09/02 @ 23:07

  • st3ph3n #123 10 years ago

    Slim, reading the text of your RE:CV review makes me question your score. You found the controls to be shit, but it's a 9.

    He didn't like the game, deal with it. Difference of opinions, have a look at that some time.

    Edit: delete a point already covered.
    Edited by st3ph3n at 06/09/02 @ 23:16

  • Gestalt #124 10 years ago

    "you'd have him slagging flight sims for being too fiddly, because he doesn't like flight sims. Or slagging platformers for having too many jumps because he doesn't like platformers."

    Er .. no, I don't normally cover hardcore flight sims or platform games because (in general) I'm not particularly interested in them. I do like action games though, which is what Mafia is. I also love gangster movies. As we don't have a "1930's action game with cars" specialist at EuroGamer yet, I was probably as well qualified as anyone to review it.


    "He doesn't like slow 1930's cars, well I'm saying that people who want to play an authentic prohibition game will want slow cars"

    Good for them. Unfortunately (IMO anyway) that authenticity gets in the way of the gameplay. It's just not as much fun driving around in some clapped out oldsmobile that (even towards the end of the game) can only do 70-80mph and needs a couple of miles of straight road to get up to that speed. And you're kinda stretching the comparison there - just how big do you think the "action game with authentic prohibition era cars" genre and its target market really is? ;)


    "scores are daft, it's the text that matters"

    Well at least that's something we can agree on. :)
    Edited by Gestalt at 06/09/02 @ 23:08

  • Errol #125 10 years ago

    I've finished with your leg now Gestalt. ;)

  • Errol #126 10 years ago

    I thought it was a quite majestic review, anyhow.

  • Slim #127 10 years ago

    Stephen, forgive me for giving a damn. Yep, the controls in most of the RE games are a bit ropey, pretty much the only thing that prevented that game from getting a ten, ok? Game was good enough to carry the flaw. Similar to what I'm saying about mafia, sure its got flaws, I was irritated with the AI too at times, but in my opinion that's not enough to knock the score down that far.

    Sure we've got a difference of opinion, isn't that what a comments systems for? I've covered the personal thing I think.

    Gestalt: "Good for them. Unfortunately (IMO anyway) that authenticity gets in the way of the gameplay. "

    So what, we should be zooming around a 1930's city doing 0-60 in under 10 seconds?

    "It's just not as much fun driving around in some clapped out oldsmobile"

    For you perhaps, but those who love gangster movies and quite fancy puttering along with a tommygun out the window will love it.

    "that (even towards the end of the game) can only do 70-80mph"

    Many of the cars go upto a ton, and a couple go up to 140mph.

    "just how big do you think the "action game with authentic prohibition era cars" genre and its target market really is? ;) "

    We'll see from the sales, eh? I'd say the target was prohibition mob/mafia fans, not specifically car lovers. It's not a gta3 clone remember, even the single tagline for the review shows you've misplaced it: Mafia
    "Review - the mob's answer to Grand Theft Auto"
    Edited by Slim at 06/09/02 @ 23:22

  • st3ph3n #128 10 years ago

    "... but in my opinion that's not enough to knock the score down that far."

    We are agreed that scores don't matter one bit though.

    Sure someone giving a game 10/10 after saying it was crap isn't right, but then I just read the text and make up my own mind. Athough your score should be a reflection of your review of a game, like 4/10 appears to be for Gestalt.

    But scores don't matter, it's the text of the review.

  • Genome #129 10 years ago

    Christ, I just realised something.

    This is going to be one of those games. You know, one of those that critics either love or hate and that splits the gaming world in two. Oh, I just love those games.
    Edited by Genome at 06/09/02 @ 23:40

  • Gestalt #130 10 years ago

    "So what, we should be zooming around a 1930's city doing 0-60 in under 10 seconds?"

    Of course not - it might be more fun if they'd made the cars more powerful, but it would probably ruin the 1930s atmosphere, which is one thing Illusion have done well. But saying "well, it'd look stupid if the cars had decent acceleration" is kinda missing the point. Illusion decided to set the game in the 1930s, and then they made a big chunk of the game involve driving around the city, often unnecessarily. Given that the cars aren't particular fast or (IMO) fun to drive, that's not really a good idea. The driving to and from missions is often pointless, and just means wasting a few minutes crawling across town stopping at every traffic light and avoiding any accidents, or else you go for the GTA approach and drive as fast as you can and run everyone over and then hope you can shake the police by the time you get to the mission area (which I found to be easier said than done, given that the police cars seem to have much better acceleration than yours, especially early in the game, and even the slightest nudge can spin you round).

    Or look at the second mission, for example, which is an exercise in tediousness. It's like Crazy Taxi but without any of the fun. Or the race mission, which is a major pain in the ass and has no connection to the rest of the game. Sure, it fits the story nicely, and the handling of the cars might well be realistic, but is it really any fun, does it add to the game, and does it work with the keyboard and mouse controls that most players are going to be using?

  • bluegnu #131 10 years ago

    Christ this is getting so childish - bickering befits us not eh? However, I do think EG does need some consistency in its scoring system. For example, Mugwum awards Enclave for x-box 7/10 - a game plagued by lack of mid-level saves, ropey ai and the odd level chock full of frustrating gameplay idiosyncracies, yet Gestalt awards Mafia 4/10 for some of the exact same faults. What's that about then?

  • Bru-Man #132 10 years ago

    Well, I've read through the entire list of discussions (took some time) and I find myself agreeing and disagreeing with various arguments presented. I won't bore you with my own individual opinion, suffice to say I came to the conclusion that I won't be buying this game.

    Then again I wasn't going to buy it anyway :p

  • Slim #133 10 years ago

    We're clearly just not going to agree on the car thing.

    "Or look at the second mission, for example, which is an exercise in tediousness. It's like Crazy Taxi but without any of the fun."

    I saw that as the entire point, he starts life as a taxi driver, it is tedious, but he then becomes a ganster, that isn't.

    "Or the race mission, which is a major pain in the ass and has no connection to the rest of the game. "

    I enjoyed it. It was tough, but fealt good when it was done. Just make sure you're first into that initial corner, then keep em blocked the rest of the way.

  • Viktor #134 10 years ago


    Scripted games should be tortured and banished to the lowest limbo.

    Roll on games like Operation Flashpoint, Deus Ex, Morrowind, GTA3 etc. which truly present interactive entertainment, not just gimmicks scripted by designers who want to show how smart they are.

  • Slim #135 10 years ago

    Minerva nice review, you can type stuff into your word processor and paste it into this little box.

    I haven't had any crashes at all, but I have seen bugs. Most annoying was the airport mission where frank just refused to talk to me at all, but it was quite a small sectin to replay. A positive point is that the game not only autosaves for you, but keeps a history of all the saves throughout, so it's no problem at all to replay from any past save. I've redone a few bits even after finishing them successfully, just so I can either have fun with them again, or finish up with more hitpoints.

    Victor: What's so evil about a script? Entertainment often needs a script to be interesting, free form can get dull.

    "Roll on games like Operation Flashpoint, Deus Ex, Morrowind, GTA3 etc"

    Op flash was very scripted, you hit waypoints that triggered events on the battlefield. Dues Ex, highly scripted! Morrowind is a bit more open, but still heavily scripted, especially in the main plotline. GTA3's a good example though of having a script and a freeplay mode, but then so has Mafia.
    Edited by Slim at 07/09/02 @ 08:27

  • Gestalt #136 10 years ago

    "I saw that as the entire point, he starts life as a taxi driver, it is tedious, but he then becomes a ganster, that isn't"

    Well that's great from a narrative point of view, but when it comes to gameplay it's bloody stupid to make the second mission in the game utterly tedious just to hammer home the fact that being a ganster is more exciting than being a taxi driver. Well, duh - I could have figured that one out for myself without spending several minutes driving around the city while trying to avoid hitting anyone or running the lights.


    "It was tough, but fealt good when it was done. Just make sure you're first into that initial corner, then keep em blocked the rest of the way"

    That's easier said than done. It took me several attempts to get it perfect, and if I'd bought the game I would probably have given up and returned it by then. It just doesn't work well with a mouse and keyboard, which is what most people will probably be playing the game with, because the handling is very unforgiving, you spin and roll really easily, other cars can nudge you off the road (and frequently do) if you let them get too close, and a single slip in any of the five laps can cost you the race.

    But when I finally did win the race I romped home 15 seconds ahead of anyone else, and none of the other drivers even managed to beat my slowest lap of the race. *sighs*


    "Cinematics, cars, characters, voices, music, story, pov, and motion capture are definatly things it's got going for it"

    I'll give you the story and characters. The cinematics are good, but the animations during them are generally very subdued. Ditto the voices - most of the actors are fairly monotonous, and they could be talking about the weather rather than knocking off someone who just tried to kill them for all the emotion that goes into some of those cutscenes.

    The cars are nicely detailed, but they're way too shiny and the faked reflections looked kinda dumb to me. I also found most of them (particularly earlier on in the game) boring to drive, but YMMV.


    "There is no life in it whatsoever except the shallow citizens and dumb cars"

    Yup, the city is fairly empty and lifeless and it just doesn't react to you very well. You can beat the crap out of somebody and everyone else completely ignores you. Maybe that's the idea - they know you're a mobster and they just walk by rather than run off screaming and call the police or something. But either way, it looks pretty goofy.

    For example, the second time I tried the steamer mission I beat the guy with the key to a pulp right in front of a bunch of other people (including two of his crewmates) and nobody batted an eyelid. Then when I got to the other end of the boat and two decks up, the guards outside the councillor's shot me the second they saw me. Nice...


    "Clipping, midmapping and texture placement need (in some cases) a lot of work and they should have had a better eye for details"

    For me the draw distance was the big issue. Coming over a bridge and only seeing clear blue sky in front of you until you get half way across, at which point several blocks of buildings appear out of thin air, looks bloody stupid. They should have included an option to let us increase the draw distance at the expense of resolution or detail or something, because I'd rather have a few more jaggies than buildings that materialise a couple of hundred yards in front of me.


    "The Cars ARE slow at first, especially when going up a hill, but this only ads to the excitement in the chases"

    I'm going to have to disagree with you on that one. I found the slow cars a real pain, and trying to drive up a hill in one is bloody awful - I swear I could get out and run faster. It doesn't help that the cars chasing you often seem to accelerate faster than you, so you've constantly got them ramming into the back of you and spinning you around, and pretty much all you can do is shoot them or drive down the wrong side of the road and hope they hit something.


    "Its buggy, really really buggy"

    Actually that's one problem I didn't have - it never crashed on me and the only bugs were problems with clipping (I got my car stuck in a wall a few times, most notably in the race mission), one junction where cars often seem to drive across the pavement or down the wrong side of the road for some reason, and some other little things like that.


    "Maybe try to duck behind cars a little more often"

    I did this, but the main problem I had was one of my sidekicks running off and getting killed. They seem to have a death wish. I got killed a few times, but mostly it was Sam or Paulie doing a kamikaze run that forced me to replay the mission.

    As for difficulty, the balance seemed to be off - some missions were really easy and I finished them first time through, others took a dozen tries to get right. They could really have done with tweaking the missions a bit more, and maybe even adding a difficulty option.


    "English isn't my native tongue and have to type in this stupid little box without a preview option"

    Don't worry - your English is better than a lot of our British and American readers can manage. ;)


    "what's the alternative? Saving every 10 seconds"

    Like I said in an earlier comment, the alternative is something like the system used in Operation Flashpoint where you can save manually, but only (say) once per mission. This would make the game's harder missions a lot less tedious without ending up as Max Payne style quick save city. It would also help if some of the autosave positions were .. well, repositioned.

  • Moonbender #137 10 years ago

    I don't think Operation: Flashpoint's approach to saving is that cool. Mostly because you don't have a clue how far into the mission you are when you're saving, or whether there are any near-to-impossible battles ahead. I often found myself saving at 25% of the mission thinking I had basically done everything or saving just a few steps before I had reached the end of the mission, never really using the save.
    In fact, I personally like the save anywhere approach, but then, I'm a wimp, and generally I'd say Mafia's savegame style works rather well. That is, if it was done appropriately: it should (IMO) rather save too often than too rarely, I'd much rather have the game a bit easier than having to replay large parts a dozen times.
    Also, I liked Freespace 2's system of autosaving in-between missions and offering you to skip a mission when you failed for three times, in order to spare you frustration (while the hardcore masochist players could opt to play the mission until the end of days). I like that idea, not being frustrated by games. Novel!

  • Gestalt #138 10 years ago

    Yup, being able to skip missions that you kept failing would have helped a lot. As it is I just got frustrated playing the same mission over and over again, and this happened a few times - the race, the church and the car park being the worst. Anything that stops me from playing the game is a bad thing.

  • Skeeve #139 10 years ago

    "That's easier said than done. It took me several attempts to get it perfect, and if I'd bought the game I would probably have given up and returned it by then."

    I think you are underestimating the expectations of people who actually buy their games, most of them don't expect to race through a whole game without having to retry any of it.

  • Slim #140 10 years ago

    "Well that's great from a narrative point of view, but when it comes to gameplay it's bloody stupid to make the second mission in the game utterly tedious just to hammer home the fact that being a ganster is more exciting than being a taxi driver."

    It's a slow start, it helps you learn the city, it's hardly a crushing blow is it? I mean, 4/10, that's a point lower than britneys dance beat got on here! This is really a worse buy than britneys dance beat?

    "Well, duh - I could have figured that one out for myself without spending several minutes driving around the city while trying to avoid hitting anyone or running the lights. "

    Good for you. I however would rather experience it as intended.

    "That's easier said than done. It took me several attempts to get it perfect, and if I'd bought the game I would probably have given up and returned it by then."

    Yes, because you're lazy, and you don't like games, I've pointed this out already thanks for backing me up. It's a tough challenge but not impossible. People who like a tough challenge will enjoy it, but you don't seem to be able to grasp anyone elses point of view.

    "It just doesn't work well with a mouse and keyboard, which is what most people will probably be playing the game with"

    I finished the race using the keyboard, took a few goes but did it in the end.

  • Errol #141 10 years ago

    Can we get to 200 posts ?

  • Slim #142 10 years ago

    If you keep posting your pointless rubbish, perhaps. You never did answer my question about how you played the game round a mates before it was actually released, so how about it?

  • FWB #143 10 years ago

    Well I pre-ordered it (should get it next week) for £20, so I'm assuming I'm no not getting too ripped off even if I don't like it too much. I'm not worried about the linear structure. If there was one fault I'd put on GTA3 it was that it lacked a storyline. Don't get me wrong, I do love non-linear play, but there was only so much driving and random killing you can do. Yeah its fun to go back every now and then but what it really needed was some sort of goal outside the missions (i.e. spend the money on weapons, outfits, chewing gum... anything really).

    I also hear multiplayer will be in the works through a patch, although BF does seem to have the FPS MP genre sown up for now. I do like my 1930s genre so I might not be too pissed off with some of the features. There have been very few games covering the era/topic. How I wish Gangsters 2 had actually been an improvement on the great original.

    MTW is good though. I love beating the crap out of Scots with my Vikings.
    Edited by FWB at 07/09/02 @ 12:52

  • Viktor #144 10 years ago

    Op flash was very scripted, you hit waypoints that triggered events on the battlefield. Dues Ex, highly scripted! Morrowind is a bit more open, but still heavily scripted, especially in the main plotline. GTA3's a good example though of having a script and a freeplay mode, but then so has Mafia.

    Mafia is throughly scripted. Lets start with the enemies: they appear at completely scripted locations and show no intiative whatsoever. Then all goals can be completed basically in only one way, and failing that, it's game over. For example the ending of the motel shootout is one of the worst: if you fail to stop the car from escaping, it's game over. Come on! Lazy design. There is never the sense of surprise of "how did that happen!?" or "wasn't I clever", only the feeling of "nice idea, developers, but I'd like to do this MY WAY".

    In GTA3, Mafia, Morrowind, Deus Ex etc. there is EMERGENT gameplay, which means that the sheer complexity of possibilities of action amount to a situation where completely different solutions, events and even storylines emerge out of the gameplay structure.

    Old entertainment needs a script, but interactive doesn't. It has to let the player tell his own story, by providing a rich backdrop, a good simulation of a world (which can have hard-coded events like Operation Flashpoint has) but in the end the key to making a good next-gen game is not forcing the player to use only one solution to pass a certain scene.

    Mafia is a dinosaur, and an enjoyable one at that, but still something doomed to extinction.
    Edited by Viktor at 07/09/02 @ 13:31

  • FWB #145 10 years ago

    Op flash was very scripted, you hit waypoints that triggered events on the battlefield.

    Yes it was, but I must say it wasn't very obvious, or at least you could forget about it. The AI, I think, was pretty good and a mission wouldn't follow the same path if you replayed it. Many times I found the enemy doing something different - that kind of took me by surprise at first.

    Most of the triggers in OFP just moved the storyline along (cutscenes) or just released the computer, after which it would go and do things by itself. If you take a look at the editor you can appreciate that the system actually works pretty well. Triggers are very easy to put in and you can lay down numerous events at the click of the mouse and thus expand your options.
    Edited by FWB at 07/09/02 @ 13:09

  • Slim #146 10 years ago

    "Mafia is throughly scripted. Lets start with the enemies: they appear at completely scripted locations and show no intiative whatsoever."

    I didn't find that to be the case. I replayed the missions quite a few times, and found that the enemies would approach me differently. Sometimes they'd charge, sometimes crouch behind stuff, sometimes try to sneak around cars.

    "Then all goals can be completed basically in only one way, and failing that, it's game over."

    There's only one objective sure, but there's different way's to go about it.

    "For example the ending of the motel shootout is one of the worst: if you fail to stop the car from escaping, it's game over."

    Well sure, its a linear game, that's the way it is. You expect them to produce an alternative route through the game? That would require a huge number of missions.

    "Come on! Lazy design. There is never the sense of surprise of "how did that happen!?" or "wasn't I clever", only the feeling of "nice idea, developers, but I'd like to do this MY WAY". "

    I got that by completing the missions different ways. Like putting the cars on the ramps in the car park. Or the mission where you nuke the car over the cliff, i rammed it off with another stolen car :-)

    "In GTA3, Mafia, Morrowind, Deus Ex etc. there is EMERGENT gameplay, which means that the sheer complexity of possibilities of action amount to a situation where completely different solutions, events and even storylines emerge out of the gameplay structure. "

    GTA3 yes, but there fairly simple missions, and there's a plotline that has only one outcome afaik. Morrowind has only one solution to the plot, you complete the quests within their rigid guidelines, if you fail in a plot you get a message to say the world is now buggered, you can carry on if you like but you'll never complete the game, hows that innovative or free? It's just another way of saying game over. Deus ex had a linear structure, not sure why you're saying its a free game. Sure, I like open ended gaming, but I think you need a linear thread though the game to provide a coherant plot, objective and complete bit of entertainment.

    "Old entertainment needs a script, but interactive doesn't. It has to let the player tell his own story, by providing a rich backdrop, a good simulation of a world"

    I think you're living in fantasy land to be honest. It's a nice idea, but it rarely works out.

    "Mafia is a dinosaur, and an enjoyable one at that, but still something doomed to extinction."

    Disagree. I think we've seen companies try open ended gaming and its been a bit of a failure in most cases. We're coming back to realise that a good old fashioned story is what a lot of people really want.

  • Errol #147 10 years ago

    I'm begining to think that Slim works for the Mafia dev. team or something. I have not seen a 'vendetta' pursued with so much enthusiasm for ages.

  • Gestalt #148 10 years ago

    "I mean, 4/10, that's a point lower than britneys dance beat got on here"

    I thought we'd agreed that scores are pointless? Certainly comparing the scores of two completely different games from completely different genres reviewed by different writers on different systems is pretty much the dictionary definition of pointless. :)


    "People who like a tough challenge will enjoy it, but you don't seem to be able to grasp anyone elses point of view"

    Challenging is one thing, having to replay the same level over and over again is crossing the line into frustrating territory for me, and I'm sure for many other people. Especially when you're being forced to replay the mission because your car spins at the slightest opportunity, or because your AI sidekick wandered off and got killed, or because you have to take on a dozen or more Tommy Gun toting mobsters with nothing but a pea shooter, or because melee combat is virtually random, or because my car got embedded in a wall and won't budge, or...

    Sorry, but having to play the same level several times isn't my idea of fun. You might enjoy that, but I'm willing to bet most people would get fed up of it eventually.


    "I also hear multiplayer will be in the works through a patch"

    Allegedly. I'll believe it when I see it, although the game was originally intended to have multiplayer support, so I guess it might be feasible.


    "I replayed the missions quite a few times, and found that the enemies would approach me differently"

    Some of the enemies are certainly prescripted. Take the car park level, for example. When the third car comes up the ramp, one of the guys gets out and runs into the corner behind the boxes next to the stairs. He does this every time, without fail, even if you're standing there waiting for him, and IIRC he won't even fire until he reaches that waypoint. A couple of levels down there's a guy who always runs across opposite the ramp you're coming down, and again he seems to invariably end up at exactly the same spot.


    "Deus ex had a linear structure, not sure why you're saying its a free game"

    I don't think he's talking about non-linear plots, he's talking about having multiple approaches to the problems within the levels that make up the game or being free to approach them in your own order. Something that GTA3, Morrowind and Deus Ex all did really well.
    Edited by Gestalt at 07/09/02 @ 14:36

  • Slim #149 10 years ago

    "I thought we'd agreed that scores are pointless? Certainly comparing the scores of two completely different games from completely different genres reviewed by different writers on different systems is pretty much the dictionary definition of pointless."

    Well, you're the editor for a games review site that scores games out of ten, well at least until the bleating causes you to backtrack and remove the scores. How does genre affect the scores? Are you saying dance beat games naturally score higher than action games for some reason? Different reviewer? Same site. Are you saying I shouldn't compare reviews on this site to find which are the better games?

    "Sorry, but having to play the same level several times isn't my idea of fun. You might enjoy that, but I'm willing to bet most people would get fed up of it eventually. "

    We'll just have to wait till more people have played it I guess, but I've seen the initial reactions and they seem pretty good.


    "Some of the enemies are certainly prescripted. Take the car park level, for example. When the third car comes up the ramp, one of the guys gets out and runs into the corner behind the boxes next to the stairs. "

    As I said, he doesn't make it if you block his car.

    "I don't think he's talking about non-linear plots, he's talking about having multiple approaches to the problems within the levels that make up the game or being free to approach them in your own order. Something that GTA3, Morrowind and Deus Ex all did really well."

    And I've pointed out how this is in Mafia too. Not sure it applies to morrowind. How far did you get with that? The plot in that is very rigid, and there's only one way to complete each mission, give object x to person y in the main, and that's it.

  • Gestalt #150 10 years ago

    "you're the editor for a games review site that scores games out of ten"

    Yeah, and I keep trying to convince my bosses to let us drop the scores. ;) I think scores distract people from the text of the review, they lead to pointless arguments ("How can you give ZooCube a higher score than Halo?!? You guys suk!" etc) and at the end of the day they don't really tell you anything useful.


    "How does genre affect the scores"

    You can't really directly compare a dancing game to an action game, because they're two completely different genres with different fans and different standards. At the end of the day the score is simply a rough estimate of how much we enjoyed the game - there's no magic formula saying game X is better than game Y and should receive score Z.


    "I've seen the initial reactions and they seem pretty good"

    And I've just looked at the game's official forums, and they're full of people whining about how hard the race and garage missions are. ;) Making the missions that difficult might be fine for some hardcore gamers, but for the majority of people it's going to be a huge turn-off. Illusion should have included an option to skip missions that you had failed several times so those of us who were getting sick of them could get on with the game, and/or a choice of difficulty or save game settings (eg, have a hardcore mode that doesn't have any manual saves but unlocks extra goodies in the Free Ride mode or something). This would keep people like you happy, but also let the rest of just get on and play the game without having to repeat big chunks of it over and over again when we didn't want to.


    "he doesn't make it if you block his car"

    That's because you're breaking the scripting by blocking the route of the car. Once the car gets to the top level he runs to his waypoint every time.


    "Not sure it applies to morrowind"

    There's only one outcome for each quest and the central plot is fairly linear, but there's dozens of quests for you to just wander off and do in any order you want. That makes it a very free game for me, even though if you want to reach the end there are certain missions that you have to complete in a set order. The point is that you can do those missions any time you want.

  • Slim #151 10 years ago

    "and at the end of the day they don't really tell you anything useful. "

    It's a rating still, tells a crap game from a good game.

    "You can't really directly compare a dancing game to an action game, because they're two completely different genres with different fans and different standards."

    But the scores are about if they're good or not? So if brittney scored higher on here, it's simply a better game, isn't it?

    "And I've just looked at the game's official forums, and they're full of people whining about how hard the race and garage missions are. ;)"

    Two hard missions out of what, 20? Enough to say a game is worthless?

    "That's because you're breaking the scripting by blocking the route of the car. Once the car gets to the top level he runs to his waypoint every time. "

    It's still and alternative, the outcome isn't completely pre-defined.

    "There's only one outcome for each quest and the central plot is fairly linear, but there's dozens of quests for you to just wander off and do in any order you want. That makes it a very free game for me, even though if you want to reach the end there are certain missions that you have to complete in a set order. The point is that you can do those missions any time you want."

    Just like Mafia then, with its central plot, or free-ride options? Plus there's the side missions for the good cars that you clearly didn't do.

  • Errol #152 10 years ago

    I get the feeling that this debate could go on for ever with each side just quoting the other and attempting to answer the points.

  • Ainudil Verified QA Engineer, Easy Studios #153 10 years ago

    I have stayed with EG becuase they say the truth - they don't get overcome with the hype.
    They are not afraid of the big gaming companies.

    I see all their reviews as being fair. When a game has faults, these are pointed out clearly and then a score according to the whole impression is given.

    I haven't played Mafia and I won't in the future.
    I will not spend my poor money on this product and I could care less if it was called Mafia, StarCraft 2 or whatever.

    A 4/10 isn't a game I want and a bad review might make the devoloper work harder the next time.

    Besides, if you like Mafia you probably have it already. Why care if EG gives it a 4 or a 10?

  • Slim #154 10 years ago

    If you never play the games Eurogamer mark down, how do you know the reviews are fair?

  • Mr_Sleep #155 10 years ago

    I have been playing it for a while now and I am enjoying it quite a lot.

    If one is to compare it to GTA3 I find the plot a lot more involving but the fun factor lacking slightly. One of the refreshing things in GTA3 is how the cops are not that aware of how fast one is travelling where as any bobby on the beat in Mafia can guage exactly how fast one is going and then it is a choice of stopping to pay the fine or burning off and hope no one else sees you.

    I think Mafia is a PC game and GTA3 is a console game, simple as that, GTA3 one can pick up at any point and just go burning around and i love it for that master stroke of design. Mafia however is an involving and evolving story that is interesting and really does tie the game together well. One of my major problems with GTA3 is how easy it is and so far Mafia is the antithesis to GTA's (at least in my opinion) easy missions.

    I agree with Gestalt that a great deal of the driving seems completely pointless byt i intuit this is due to Illusion trying to familiarise the driver with their surroundings.

    I found the race to be quite amusing although not really necessary to the plot. I think it is quite an innovative idea and i had fun doing it, i just don't understand why it can be "only Tommy".

    I think 4/10 is a harsh score, but then the review is quite accurate to many of my complaints. I think the comments system has been particularly useful in highlighting the many differing opinions that are going to be formed about Mafia.

  • Ainudil Verified QA Engineer, Easy Studios #156 10 years ago

    "If you never play the games Eurogamer mark down, how do you know the reviews are fair?"

    Slim, where in my post did I say that?

    I have played alot of hyped games and then regreted spending a dime on them.
    I wish I had found EG by the time B&W was released, if I had, I wouldn't have bought B&W and saved both money and frustration.

    Therefor, I am thankful to sites like EG that actually review a game instead of blindly stomping it with the mark of approval.

  • Gestalt #157 10 years ago

    "any bobby on the beat in Mafia can guage exactly how fast one is going"

    Actually that's a good point - I didn't know cops had speed guns in the 1930s. ;)

  • catsailor #158 10 years ago

    Guess I'm mostly preaching to the already converted, but I'm still disappointed that so many review sites shy away from emphasizing obvious flaws in games, or, even worse, do mention quite a few of them and still give an overall rating of 8.5 + x (which in my book == "very good";). The game review business seems somewhat stuck at the level of glossy movie magazines, who run big and nicely illustrated features on upcoming releases and, due to all the hype they generated, thereby incapactitate themselves from both giving their subjective opinion and mentioning obvious faults. Halfway serious film critics on the other hand, rarely give a f**k about the marketing hype (unless they stood in line for five hours to get that 15 minute star interview maybe), they watch the movie, go home and write down what's on their minds.
    If one just compares www.rottentomatoes.com to gamerankings.com, you can't help it but notice that the former displays a healthy variety of critical opinion, while the latter looks like the dream-come-true of a cultural Bolshevist. Basically the same applies to literary criticism, there are even some critics that didn't praise "Underworld" or "The Corrections" to the skies.
    I wish the business of game reviewing would finally grow up, and Eurogamer is one of those few sites that are not afraid of speaking their minds, which gives me a little hope.

    keep it up

    critically yours

    catsailor
    Edited by catsailor at 07/09/02 @ 20:27

  • Bru-Man #159 10 years ago

    A little personal note about difficulty in games:

    If I fail a mission/die on a level/don't solve a puzzle in time I want to do so feeling that it was my fault I failed. I want to be shouting Anglo-Saxon expletives at 2am worrying the neighbours because I screwed up, not because the game/level designer decreed that a certain part of the game should be excruciatingly hard because:

    1. The previous missions had been easy up until then
    2. Someone said the mission was too easy
    3. They can
    4. The game/level designer/tester who has been playing it for half a year already can do it so why can't everybody else goddammit!

    'Faked' difficulty is a good indicator of poor level design or AI which, when implemented, doesn't actually work well in the game. Or both.
    Yes, games should have hard bits that really test you, make sure you have been paying attention up to that point. But they should be fair, and it is on the designer to play through the entire game during development to make sure there are no sudden 'ramp up's in difficulty that are out of place.

  • Errol #160 10 years ago

    Anyone know what the longest EG thread ever was ?

  • otto #161 10 years ago

    Anyone know what the longest EG thread ever was ?

    I don't know but I'd put in a guess at one of either Max Payne, Beige Box Blues, GTA3 or Halo. I seem to remember a couple of other 300+ ones too.

  • Moonbender #162 10 years ago

    btw to the reviewer: im sure if this was an xbox game it would get 9/10

    I'm sure it would, but not on EG. :)

  • RoboCop #163 10 years ago

    A few points that struck me when reading through this mass of comments:

    What Gestalt is saying about predictable scripted AI is right, although maybe the important point was lost in the noise.
    It is important that any NPC behaves in a way that you might expect. So you might expect someone to jump out of a car and run for cover - but you would NOT expect him to keep running at you as you shoot holes in him, because his script tells him to keep running until he reaches point X, and then decide what to do.
    This is simply poorly thought-out game design, but to be fair to the designers there are equally stupid things going on in every game I've ever played.
    Just think of all the cases where you find a "clever" way to beat a game, such as the dozens of cases in GTA3 where someone has found that you can beat a really hard level by taking advantage of a flaw in the collision or that you can get to the other islands by some bizarre method and then get back to the first with a more powerful car. These are also flaws in the game design - and they are just as bad as the minor flaw of an NPC who isn't coded to handle enemy fire before he reaches a waypoint.

    Likewise the problems with being unable to complete a mission within a few goes are important. Not because Gestalt is lazy, or incompetent (I wouldn't know, this is the first review I've ever read by him) but simply because he wasn't thinking the same way as the designers. So maybe the game is lacking in mission information, or maybe it needs an extra "hint" system adding to try to give clues for people who really don't get it.
    I'm sure I'm not the only person who wasted days trying to get through one single section of DOOM II because I was trying the wrong things - time and again I would get killed, and I never understood why, until somebody else told me what I was doing wrong, and suddenly I couldn't see how I could have been so stupid. Once again, this is a flaw in this game and many others, that failure to complete a section prevents you progressing, but failure may be caused by some minor failure on the players side that they will simply never get past on their own. The suggestions of an option to skip missions and better mission scripts are reasonable, and perhaps ones which all game designers should consider, if they are writing a mission based game.

    It is curious that so many of the features that other people mentioned, and which I would have thought were quite innovative, got no mention in Gestalts review.
    I don't recall any mention of shooting as you drive, or having an accomplice shoot as you drive - both surely worth a mention. Perhaps they were not obvious to Gestalt - I know I'm guilty of playing a game without reading the manual - I've even finished a few games before I discovered there was another weapon or a sniper view or something. Or equally possibly he was so pissed off with the game by then that he simply didn't think to mention them.
    Also there was no mention of the fantastic effects other people mentioned - shooting tyres flat, the sound of the car you were hiding behind being peppered with bullets and all the windows smashing, and so on. For this I can only assume the latter explanation - Gestalt was too fed up with the game to remember that they had even happened. Or maybe he played the game on a P133 with an original 3DFX VooDoo card, and the sound turned off :-)

    It is also noticeable that Gestalt has failed to maintain anything resembling objectivity when it comes to complaining about the failings of this game.
    It would have been enough to say "I would have been happier with faster cars than these slow 1930s models" without breaking into a 200-odd word essay about slow cars, speeding traps and driving back and forth.
    To follow this shortly after with another 200-odd words about a single mission which presumably he didn't understand, and then another 200-odd words moaning about the traffic system is nothing short of nit-picking. These faults should have been mentioned, even if they were only in reality perceived problems that a better understanding of the game would have relieved. But they didn't quite need to be the major part of the review. Where was the balance ? Where was the detail ?

    Overall, it is quite clear that this game has a lot to offer, but that it is tarnished by a number of poor design flaws, which combined to prevent Gestalt from getting full enjoyment from it, and I think he would be wrong not to say so - I just think he went off on one for the body of the review and failed to really review the game.

    As for the rest of the moaning and whinging on here ... get a life :-)
    I write games for a living, it pisses me off no end when reviewers appear to have played a different game to the one I wrote, but at least Gestalt appears to have actually played the game, which is more than some reviewers seem to do.
    It is a pity that he missed out so much detail which would be useful to people who are genuinely thinking about buying the game, but then this is the internet. There are people who only buy one games magazine, but I bet you can't find many who only read one review on the internet, after all why would they when there are dozens to choose from ? They'll read all the interesting stuff from others, and perhaps in some cases even form a balanced judgment about whether this is the game for them or not.


  • Errol #164 10 years ago

    YAY ! Otto returns !!

  • Nobby #165 10 years ago

    *yawn* Is no one going to let this rest? It's getting a bit repetitive you know.

  • FWB #166 10 years ago

    It is also noticeable that Gestalt has failed to maintain anything resembling objectivity when it comes to complaining about the failings of this game.

    I don't want to start laying into Gestalt but I must say the review does seem to do nothing but slag the game off. Surely there were some features which were interesting/well worked? After all it was given a 4 and not a 0. So Gestalt, what did you actually like about it?

  • Gestalt #167 10 years ago

    "Perhaps they were not obvious to Gestalt - I know I'm guilty of playing a game without reading the manual"

    Actually I read the manual cover to cover - not something I normally do, but there was plenty of time while the game was installing! ;)


    "That woudn't be realistic but this reviewer wants fast action and the story doesn't matter anyways"

    Er .. no, I just want a game that's fun. :) The story is great, the gameplay and graphics are badly flawed. If you can look past those flaws and still enjoy the game, all power to you, but it just frustrated me and spoilt any enjoyment I might have got out of the game.


    "The reviewer seems to complain that this game is to difficult"

    That's because it is too difficult in places, and I for one don't enjoy having to replay the same mission five or ten times or more to get it right, especially when (in those two missions) it's often the AI that's causing you to fail. The developers should have included a choice of difficulty levels and/or some way to skip a mission if you failed it three or four times in a row. In fact, apparently the first patch for the game might include an option to let you skip that race level - at the moment, if you hit the "skip race" option it just acts as though you lost and you have to start over again. Dunno if that's a bug or just poor translation.

    Just look at the game's official forums though - a sizeable proportion of the posts there are about the race and car park levels. And the people posting there are, by definition, hardcore gamers - just imagine what Joe Bloggs who picked the game up from Dixons or Electronics Boutique makes of it. I'm not the only person that found those levels bloody hard and got pissed off having to endlessly repeat them until I didn't get rammed off the road / Sam and Paulie didn't run off and get themselves shot by standing out in the open.

    Yes, that's just part of the game, but a) it's about 10% of the game (much more if you go by the amount of time I spent on them) and b) they're showstoppers. A lot of people would have given up at that point, as would I if I hadn't had to review it. The fact that both of those missions are in the first half of the game just makes it worse.


    "what did you actually like about it?"

    The story's great and the atmosphere is spot on, when it's not spoilt by poor AI, cop cars that accelerate way too fast and buildings that materialise out of thin air. Some of the on-foot action can be fun as well when you don't have to worry about AI sidekicks and you're not hopelessly outnumbered and given a pea shooter with half a dozen bullets to fight back with. Which isn't very often unfortunately.

    I actually quite enjoyed the first hour or two of the game, apart from that ridiculously long and anal taxi mission, but after that it just got more and more frustrating and the constant driving back and forth across town got incredibly repetitive. If I wanted to cruise around town I'd play the free ride mode. As it is I found the cars a pain to drive and I just wanted to get on with the game instead of wasting ages driving around to get from Salieri's bar to wherever the mission was taking place in almost every level.
    Edited by Gestalt at 08/09/02 @ 10:48

  • otto #168 10 years ago

    Everyone's getting very excited about the score, I don't see a score. Did Gestalt finally persuade the Don to let him drop scores?

  • Gestalt #169 10 years ago

    Yes, the score was removed soon after the review was posted. Not sure yet if this will become a permanent thing, but I certainly hope so.

  • otto #170 10 years ago

    Excellent, good move. Are you thinking of putting anything in its place? A 'thumbs up/thumbs down' icon or some such quick guide? Don't want to get into another scoring debate but I've never worked out how numerical values can be extracted from a game review, the worst are those sites which start giving percentages in randomly generated categories and then average the whole thing out to give the final score out of a hundred. Daft. Daftest of all is to finish off by giving a 'reviewer's tilt' so undermining the whole carefully constructed charade. But a quick 'hit or miss' guide can be helpful to go alongside an in-depth written review.

  • Viktor #171 10 years ago

    I replayed the missions quite a few times, and found that the enemies would approach me differently. Sometimes they'd charge, sometimes crouch behind stuff, sometimes try to sneak around cars.

    Unluckily so did I replay them, too many times. It got easier, though, when you already knew where the enemies would be scripted to pop out like in a shooting range. It seems to me we played a different game.

    There's only one objective sure, but there's different way's to go about it.

    Like what? I don't count something being different if it's cheating the AI like blocking it with cars or something like that.

    Well sure, its a linear game, that's the way it is. You expect them to produce an alternative route through the game? That would require a huge number of missions.

    Actually the motel car escape could easily have been handled by one cutscene and perhaps having the bald guy pop up again somewhere... or maybe one extra mission where you visit his house somewhere. Too many things like this in the game: a small tweak here or there, and Mafia would've been a good game, as opposed to average.

    GTA3 yes, but there fairly simple missions, and there's a plotline that has only one outcome afaik. Morrowind has only one solution to the plot, you complete the quests within their rigid guidelines, if you fail in a plot you get a message to say the world is now buggered, you can carry on if you like but you'll never complete the game, hows that innovative or free? It's just another way of saying game over. Deus ex had a linear structure, not sure why you're saying its a free game. Sure, I like open ended gaming, but I think you need a linear thread though the game to provide a coherant plot, objective and complete bit of entertainment.

    Morrowind's main quest does have a plot line, but the outcome depends on the character e.g. players prior actions. Also the only way to get the whole world "buggered" is by killing an NPC you wouldn't probably have a good reason to kill, and even after getting that message you still have thousands of side quests to complete. Try getting your own stronghold etc.

    Try considering the fact that games are not things to be completed, but toys.

    Why I cited GTA3 and Deus Ex as good examples of "non-scripted games" -- they both give you numerous approaches to a problem. You can complete Deus Ex without KILLING anybody, in GTA3 you have loads of small quests littered around the area -- while it's a comedy game, it still feels like you are not bound to follow a single story, mission by mission.

    I think you're living in fantasy land to be honest. It's a nice idea, but it rarely works out.

    Game criticism and game theory research is what gives us a dream of a better world -- a world where games could become much more than simple-minded entertainment where you simulate killing people. Morrowind, Deus Ex etc. point us a way forward, and it's fair to criticise games that bring nothing new to gameplay, only tired old scripted concepts and poor AI and player interaction with the world.

    We're coming back to realise that a good old fashioned story is what a lot of people really want.

    LOL! We're thinking that people have realized that freedom is what they crave -- and that's why Morrowind and GTA3 have been on the bestseller lists for so long!

  • Gestalt #172 10 years ago

    "a quick 'hit or miss' guide can be helpful to go alongside an in-depth written review"

    Yeah, something like that might work. It's certainly better than trying to score everything out of ten or as a percentage.

  • otto #173 10 years ago

    better than trying to score everything out of ten or as a percentage.

    Quite. I'm guessing that you come under some pressure from publishers to give scores, right? Presumably so they can refer to it in their marketing blurb (assuming the score's a good one). But a thumbs up/down system plus 'awards' ("EG seal of approval" or something less cheesy) for really outstanding games might placate them. Does away with the need for scores entirely imho - seeing as the readership doesn't seem to want them.

    Try considering the fact that games are not things to be completed, but toys.

    Not a "fact" as such, but a pretty sound point of view. I often ignore the "mission" structure entirely in some games and just stick to sandbox. Comes down to individual taste I suppose.

    Gestalt said: "We're coming back to realise that a good old fashioned story is what a lot of people really want."

    Viktor said: "We're thinking that people have realized that freedom is what they crave"

    There's room for both types of game surely? I wouldn't want to do without either. As long as a game's honest about what it sets out to do.

  • Gestalt #174 10 years ago

    Er .. I didn't say that! Personally I'd like both - a good story *and* plenty of random stuff to muck around doing on the side. :)

  • Slim #175 10 years ago

    Like what? I don't count something being different if it's cheating the AI like blocking it with cars or something like that.

    I didn't see the blocking as cheating the AI, just as another route. Other ways of doing things were available all through the game, for example the stealth mission I didn't stealth at all, but rambo'd my way through it (and nicked the guys car, it's one of the best in the game!). If the cops stopped me for speeding, I gunned them down rather than waiting for a ticket etc.

    Actually the motel car escape could easily have been handled by one cutscene and perhaps having the bald guy pop up again somewhere... or maybe one extra mission where you visit his house somewhere.

    So that's two alternatives for one mission, you're asking for the game to be at least 3x bigger than it is. That's a pretty significant change.

    Too many things like this in the game: a small tweak here or there, and Mafia would've been a good game, as opposed to average.

    I agree, it's not a perfect game, but certainly well above average. Hard to think of any game that doesn't have any flaws at all.

    Morrowind's main quest does have a plot line, but the outcome depends on the character e.g. players prior actions.

    Most of the plot was take object x to y. There wasn't any room for anything else but the rigid guidelines. I found morrowinds quest system very rigid in fact, in the end very boring because of the repetition.

    Also the only way to get the whole world "buggered" is by killing an NPC you wouldn't probably have a good reason to kill, and even after getting that message you still have thousands of side quests to complete. Try getting your own stronghold etc.

    Yep, but you can never finish the game.

    Try considering the fact that games are not things to be completed, but toys.

    I have, and I've played a few of them. I used to want entirely open experiences until i'd tried a few. Now I'm happy to be guided around. A bit of freedom is fun, a lot is tedium. Morrowind got very boring after a while because it wasn't that scripted. A bit of freedom and non linearity is nice, Baldurs Gate 2 did a particularly good job of this through chapter 2, where you could follow the main plot or do a ton of subquests in any order you like, but the main plot was always there for moving along and giving you a sense of accomplishment.

    [/i]Why I cited GTA3 and Deus Ex as good examples of "non-scripted games" -- they both give you numerous approaches to a problem. You can complete Deus Ex without KILLING anybody[/i]

    Are you sure? I thought you had to kill the boss chars for a start?

    in GTA3 you have loads of small quests littered around the area -- while it's a comedy game, it still feels like you are not bound to follow a single story, mission by mission.

    Sure thats nice, but in the end you do follow the story missions and finish the game.

    LOL! We're thinking that people have realized that freedom is what they crave -- and that's why Morrowind and GTA3 have been on the bestseller lists for so long!

    Morrowind sold pretty poorly I'm afraid. GTA3 did well, but I'm sure that had as much to do with the violent content as much as any freedom ideal.

  • st3ph3n #176 10 years ago

    GTA3 did well, but I'm sure that had as much to do with the violent content as much as any freedom ideal.

    Or the fact it was the most entertaining game of last year, if not the last 5?

  • Slim #177 10 years ago

    Yeah, it being a bit good certainly will have helped sales :-)

  • Moonbender #178 10 years ago

    Slim: You apparently won't ackownledge that there's a fundamental difference in the freeform gameplay offered by the likes of Morrowind and Deus Ex (which both games do in different ways) and the heavily scripted gameplay offered in the Mafia storyline mode. That's just funny.

    On topic of the rating system, I really liked DailyRadar's rating system (if nothing else about them), IIRC they had three scores, something like bad, good and awesome. I like reserving an awesome to point out games that are kind of a must-have.

  • Slim #179 10 years ago

    Well, I've played and finished all three games. DeusEx had different physical paths through the missions, well Mafia has that on many missions. Deus ex you could do them peacably or forcefully, well you can in mafia too, for example the stealth mission you could sneak through and complete it, or shoot everyone and complete it.

    Morrowind was very open in that you could wander wherever you like and do quests, well Mafia has that in free play mode. Morrowind also has a very linear main plot where you have to do each quest in sequence with no freedom at all, and they can be mostly only done one way, I.e. goto dungeon X, kill this man and bring back Y.

    Fail to see the huge difference here. Care to point it out for me rather than just say I'm being funny?

  • Gestalt #180 10 years ago

    "for example the stealth mission you could sneak through and complete it, or shoot everyone and complete it"

    Which mission, the one where you're breaking into the safe? I tried rampaging my way through that a few times, but there's tons of guards and they're all armed with pump action shotguns and tommy guns, so you tend to die really quickly if you shoot anyone. There's only one way I've found of getting through the first part of that level, and that's to sneak down the left side of the garden, bop one guy on the head with the baseball bat and then sneak on to the side door. Anything else got me killed, rapidly. On the way out I bopped the maid over the head with the bat, and the guy standing guard on the patio with his back to the door. Then I got spotted, but got lucky and took out the guy coming up the stairs to the patio before he could shoot me or the safe cracker. Then I legged it for the side gate. Again, taking on the guards is suicidal, especially as you need to keep an unarmed sidekick alive as well as yourself.

  • hulahoops #181 10 years ago

    DailyRadar's rating system

    Think it went

    Dud
    Miss
    Hit
    Direct Hit

    So basically marks out of 4. Generally, I looked on it as Hit = buy it if it's your thing, and Direct Hit = sit up and take notice, even if it's not your thing. But at the end of the day, a Hit is basically a score of 6-low 8, and direct hit high 8-10.

  • otto #182 10 years ago

    Er .. I didn't say that! Personally I'd like both

    Whoops sorry, well someone said it, personally I'd also like plenty of both, I always thought freedom was the advantage computer games had over books, a decent plot/story being the sine qua non of both media (sorry about that but there's been a shocking lack of Latin here recently :p). Arcade type games excepted natch.

  • Slim #183 10 years ago

    "Which mission, the one where you're breaking into the safe? I tried rampaging my way through that a few times, but there's tons of guards and they're all armed with pump action shotguns and tommy guns, so you tend to die really quickly if you shoot anyone."

    Yes, that one. I hid and bonked the first one on the right as he walked past, then nicked his shotgun and fired it. They all came running, but I stayed hid, and blow them away as they came into shot. See, different ways to do things.

    "Again, taking on the guards is suicidal, especially as you need to keep an unarmed sidekick alive as well as yourself."

    I didn't find it to be, provided you weren't daft enough to take them full on. The unarmed sidekick wasn't a problem as he responed to 'wait here' commands, I could put him somewhere safe until I'd cleared things out.

    Otto: I said that, but I prefer both too, like baldurs 2 for example.

  • Moonbender #184 10 years ago

    They all came running, but I stayed hid, and blow them away as they came into shot. See, different ways to do things.

    Actually, you just exploited a flawed AI again (nothing wrong with that, I catch myself doing that often). That might be a different way, but it doesn't really speak for the game, nor the designers if they actually intended it to be that way. Even very slow thugs should notice a heap of their buddies lieing bleeding on the floor and approach more carefully.
    Oh well.

  • otto #185 10 years ago

    I hid and bonked the first one on the right as he walked past

    Now that I'd like to have seen. ;)

  • Whizzo #186 10 years ago

    Well I'm loving the game, the performance of it is a bit iffy though and I'm at the dreaded car park level now.

    I must say I did feel slightly guilty beating the housekeeper to death with my baseball bat in the burglary mission. Stealing the prosecutor's car right in front of him after offing half a dozen of his bodyguards did cheer me up a bit afterwards though! ;-)

    I just wish the game had the stats like GTA3 has, I'm rather curious how many people I've run down. Even the airport mission is a lot easier when you nick a mechanic's truck and plow into tommygun wielding corrupt cops! :-)

  • hulahoops #187 10 years ago

    I hid and bonked the first one on the right

    Blimey, I knew freestyle allowing the player to tackle problems as they please was all the rage, but this is ridiculous.

  • st3ph3n #188 10 years ago

    Quick point, I've never played this game but these very interesting comments have pieced together the entire plot and exactley how to defeat each mission.

    I wasn't going to get it anyway, just saying, that's all.

  • Viktor #189 10 years ago


    We need harsh gaming criticism to advance the entertainment. The most biased criticism would be to say that everything is good, when most games are bad or average. It would be an insult to the few really good games.

    But then again, if you consider films, critics slam bad movies, but they end up being blockbusters. But slowly but surely the criticism influences the industry and helps create a better language of telling the stories.

    Mafia has so many faults that it can not be considered a seriously "good game", while GTA3's faults are few (horrible control on PS2 being the worst) -- I don't mind f. ex. the disappearing cars, and it's lack of repetition and sense of herding is enough to make it a great videogame, four stars out of five.

  • Super Stu #190 10 years ago

    These guys pay for the server bandwidth, so they can publish whatever the hell they want. Don't like it? Don't come back.

    If they write a review which paints a game as superb and it turns out to be shite, they're labelled unprofessional fanboys/back handers. If they rightly slate a game, their reviewing skills are called into question.

    They pay for the bandwidth to enable you to have your say.

    They have an opinion and are slated for it. You have an opinion yet your's is somehow right.

    I take my hat off to people like John and Tom running websites like this. Frankly, you miserable sods aren't worth the effort.
    Edited by Super Stu at 09/09/02 @ 15:11

  • Super Stu #191 10 years ago

    sod = turf? Haven't seen that one before.

    Wasn't levelled at you mate, it was AmpH who inspired my soap box speech (well, and the rest of the miserable gimps on this thread. Oh, and the Halo thread, if memory serves).

  • otto #192 10 years ago

    Stu, did you not have to sing the one in school assembly about Jesus sitting on a grassy sod or something? Caused many a titter at Holtspur Middle School I can assure you.

  • Super Stu #193 10 years ago

    I seem to have erased all Religious Education from my head as quick as I could French etc.

    Anyway, back to reviews... people are already claiming Sega GT2002 (Xbox) as The GT3 Killer. Can you imagine the uproar from the gimps if it doesn't score 11 out of 10, with a side serving of comments to the tune of "take a PS2 and GT3 into the shower? I'd rather just have Sega GT2k2". etc.

    It may well turn out to be a better game, but it won't perturb the manner in which it's thrust upon us by the bafoons.

    /me ponders why he bothers.

  • Mr_Sleep #194 10 years ago

    "sod = turf? Haven't seen that one before. "

    Oh that's an old one, right up there with Gay in the misappropriated words section ;)

    On the subject of Mafia, I am enjoying it i just wish that there was a mode where i could drive my car around without being hasseled by the cops all the time, i have a car which does over 70 mph but i can't test that anywhere!

    I would also like the GTA3 thing where i could tweak my cars...the hours of fun i had with that, i even managed to drive up a wall once :D

  • jaa #195 10 years ago

    Stu, since in the US Sega GT 2002 is receiving lower scores than GT3, I think EG will get a lot of hot mail from PS2 and Cube fanboys if the score (assuming there's one) is not lower than GT3's. I'm willing to bet that 8 or 9 will leave Xbox fanboys quite happy.

  • Super Stu #196 10 years ago

    Well, reviews aside momentarily, comments are that the graphics are better and the AI trumps GT3's. The AI comment is fair enough, the graphics I would expect. As I said to someone who posted

    "GT3 Killer!!! I'm ordering this one",

    "Well, it only took them two years or so to better a game on a 2.5 year old system. Well done lads".

    Still, the tone you guys offer doesn't exactly inspire me to add another console to the collection.

  • Slim #197 10 years ago

    Worth mentioning on that last point, that mafia has gone out to the shops at 29.99, so it's a good bit cheaper than many games released these days.

  • Viktor #198 10 years ago

    30 quid is still a lot compared to movies, dvds et cetera. Especially books. It's still hard for games to compete for quality time spent with media, most are too long, badly structured, boring and so on. But then again, some are so brilliant that they make the whole field of interactive entertainment worth following.

  • Errol #199 10 years ago

    Worth mentioning on that last point, that mafia has gone out to the shops at 29.99, so it's a good bit cheaper than many games released these days

    Perhaps this is also a sign that the publishers know that they will not get any more for it (after all the 'bad' reviews).

    Is there ever going to be any 'closure' on this thread ?

  • jaa #200 10 years ago

    END OF THREAD

  • Errol #201 10 years ago

    Is it ?

  • Errol #202 10 years ago

    Or is it just the begining ?

  • st3ph3n #203 10 years ago

    IGN, and we know how accurate their reviews always are.

    How anyone can read one of their reviews whilst blocking out the 3/4 screen advert for the game being reviewed I do not know.

  • FWB #204 10 years ago

    Or is it just the begining ?

    I get my copy today so I'll be sure to post a small paragraph on my thoughts, because I know how much you all care. :)

  • sam_spade #205 10 years ago

    I have to agree with the complaints that Gestalt raises against Mafia. But, I do enjoy the game despite them.

    I think what Illusion Softworks do well is create games with an 'I'm there' factor; which is the part I enjoy the most. I don't get that with many other games: NWN, MOHAA, JKII(to a lesser extent) all leave me feeling I'm directing the action from the sidelines.

    END OF THREAD Pt2

    Edit: Damn plurals

    PS:Due to unforseen circumstances this is now the END OF THREAD PT2.1
    Edited by sam_spade at 10/09/02 @ 10:45

  • Mr_Sleep #206 10 years ago

    @Errol, no, it must carry on! :p

    RegergitateMe, to my knowledge one is still pestered by the police, i could try further out in the country maybe.

  • Slim #207 10 years ago

    "Perhaps this is also a sign that the publishers know that they will not get any more for it (after all the 'bad' reviews). "

    Well, no, it's still £30 which isn't a budget price, just a bit cheaper than some new releases. After all the 'bad' reviews? I haven't seen any, it's gone up to %90 on game rankings based on a few more reviews, and the user vote shows 8.8/10.

  • otto #208 10 years ago

    The old 'log out and pretend you're several different people' trick eh Errol? ;)

  • Errol #209 10 years ago

    It erm ... never fails.

  • rauper Verified Managing Director, Eurogamer Network #210 10 years ago

    Errol: please don't do that again, it's becoming tiring!

  • Mr_Sleep #211 10 years ago

    On day of release in Game Mafia was 35:99...

  • Super Stu #212 10 years ago

    I would also like the GTA3 thing where i could tweak my cars...the hours of fun i had with that, i even managed to drive up a wall once :D

    Mr Sleep.. what's that all about, I must have missed that one!

  • Mr_Sleep #213 10 years ago

    On the PC version of GTA3 there is a file called handling (i think it is an ini) which can be opened in notepad, with the right tweaking one can make the cars do some very strange things. A friend of mine altered a Perrenial to be so fast that he could jump through the gap from Portland to Staunton Island.

    It improved the longevity of the game for me, i made some truly amazing cars, although I did complete the game first before even realising the settings existed.

    For instance i made the Rhino (tank) drive like a Banshee.
    Edited by Mr_Sleep at 10/09/02 @ 14:50

  • Super Stu #214 10 years ago

    Hehe, damn. May have to pickup the PC version 2nd hand then :) It's that sort of (genuine?) faffing about I miss on console gaming.

  • Mr_Sleep #215 10 years ago

    Doing the Vigilante missions in a tank that drives like a sportscar is a blast, the only problem being barrell rolling the tank.

    I think i will stop adding any more comments to this thread it is taking about a minute to load now.

  • Errol #216 10 years ago

    I never realised GTA3 had that kind of 'modding' allowed. I will have to pick up the pc version as well now (if I can get it cheap).

  • Mr_Sleep #217 10 years ago

    Okay this is my last comment (until next time ;) ) in this thread.

    You can also alter the default skin of your character, for instance i gave my character a beard and a grey T-Shirt, takes a little bit of photoshop skill but it didn't take too long.

  • FWB #218 10 years ago

    Ok, I know I'm late put I'll post my two cents now since I've had the chance to play the game. Bare in mind I'm just commenting on what I've seen so far.

    Mafia would be decent if you were to add one more word to the title: Driver. Damn straight there is too much driving in this game and I just don't see why (well that's a lie... its probably down to the fact that the city has no life - more on that later - and so there's nothing to see on foot). I actually like the handling of the cars and the small speeds don't bother me too much (makes it easier to shoot), but this is insane. Perhaps its because the developers put so much time into the vehicles that they wanted to base a game around it, but then they shouldn't call it Mafia.

    Performance wise I haven't had a problem but maybe that's because it looks pretty bad. I have everything maxed on my p3 866 512RAM Radeon DDR64 at 1024x768 32bit and was impressed to see things run so smoothly, but then I realised why. There's nothing to run. The city feels dead with no objects such as benches, wastepaper baskets, litter etc, floating around. The buildings look boring well the layout is extremely blocky. There are very few back alleys to run around and almost no vertical character involving change. Then there's the textures, on pair with Duke Nukem 3D. I actually disagree with Gestalt that the city looks good. Its pretty damn bad. As for the countryside.... wooahh... is this 1990? Does Vette live? Are we incapable of even subtly putting in landscape borders? Driving along the out-of-town roads really feels like going through a tunnel. Finally, the population... well they're nothing great. They wonder aimlessly and don't interact with the landscape at all (sit down, enter buildings, stop to talk to one another etc). GTA3 was also guilt of this, except it had a few amusing sounds to provide some sort of entertainment.

    Maybe this is all my card's problem, but then I do know it can produce decent looking sceneries in other games, so the fault there would lie with the developers.

    I won't bother with commenting on the scripting because I think its been covered enough. Needless to say its damn obvious, and that's not a good thing.

    The sound is a redeeming feature though. The cars do sound like 1930s, in otherwords shitty. :)

    Was it worth £20? Well I've just finished the stupid race track level (because that was really relevant. Sigh.) and quit after I was told to do some more driving, so perhaps later on things will pick up (I'd like some more of that motel scene). However, if this is the way its going to stay, then I wouldn't take it off the shelf for free. A shame... actually no it isn't. Its just bad. I was hoping for Hitman meets GTA in the 1930s. Not the case. At this stage 4/10 is generous.

    I'll probably give this another go when I fancy some virtual driving, otherwise back to Medieval Total War and the BF1942 demo.

  • Gestalt #219 10 years ago

    "us gamers need more of a challenge"

    Most gamers don't need more of a challenge, or at least not to this degree. Mafia is simply too hard for a lot of people, particularly in a few specific missions such as the race, the garage, perhaps the church and a couple of others. Even Illusion seem to accept that, as there's some suggestion that they're going to add an option to skip the race mission in a forthcoming patch.

    I'm willing to bet that, while most people don't mind replaying a mission a few times, having to do it over and over again to get it right and ending up failing a mission through no fault of their own because the AI broke down or they got their car rolled over by some psychopath just isn't fun, especially if the mission is utterly irrelevant to the rest of the game, like the race.

    As I've said before, Illusion should have included a choice of difficulty settings, a wimp mode with one or two manual saves allowed per mission, and/or an option to skip a mission and move on if you failed it a few times in a row. Any one of those options would have made the game much more entertaining and less frustrating for players who aren't ultra hardcore. Let's face it, I play games for a living, I've played tons of action games going right back to Wolfenstein 3D, and I still found parts of Mafia virtually impossible to complete. Just imagine what Joe Bloggs must make of it. I'd be interested to see what the return rate was like for this game...

  • Errol #220 10 years ago

    Mafia is simply too hard for a lot of people, particularly in a few specific missions such as the race, the garage, perhaps the church and a couple of others

    This smacks of a serious lack of playtesting. One wonders if the playtesting time was cut short to rush the release ?

  • Errol #221 10 years ago

    I'll probably give this another go when I fancy some virtual driving, otherwise back to Medieval Total War and the BF1942 demo

    Another treat this week is the expected release of the UT 2003 demo (Mark Rein posted on the official forum to such effect).

  • Viktor #222 10 years ago


    It seems that the reason why Mafia so divides opinions is that some people believe it to be a "hardcore" game, and liking it gives them "hardcore gamer" status.

    Me? I'm an editor and I gave it three stars out of five, for it is woefully average. The beautiful presentation is so marred by the bad structure and forced repetition. On rails -gaming is so nineties ;)

  • FWB #223 10 years ago

    Mafia is simply too hard for a lot of people, particularly in a few specific missions such as the race, the garage, perhaps the church and a couple of others

    Hard? More likely stupidly designed. The only level I had difficulty on was the racing track, the others have been a piece of piss. I actually contined onward last night (someone told me that the game really started after the race course so I thought I'd have another look) and managed to zoom past the hotel, church and farm levels. They were fun to do, but so small and too easy. Problem is I keep having to do all this freakin' driving.

    Now I hear there won't be a patch (according to an official statement). This when the forums are apparantly full of people having problems. Are Illusion really that big a bunch of arseholes? I don't have a problem running it, I just think its poor, but that is really screwing others over.

  • Whizzo #224 10 years ago

    The city feels dead with no objects such as benches, wastepaper baskets
    Er there's plenty of things like that! Benches in the park areas, fire hydrants dot the streets, bins where appropriate, telephone boxes and those peculiar looking pole things that are on the pavement too. It's far too clean on the streets though, a few newspapers or other rubbish blowing around occasionally would add some atmosphere.

    Now on my PC (a XP1800 with a GF3 Ti-500) the framerate dives quite often and it seems to be getting worse the further into the game I get.

  • Viktor #225 10 years ago


    Imagine what the framerate would be like if they would've added the rubbish on the streets and more lively pedestrians etc.

    I wonder why game requirements keep on getting worse and worse, but the advances in graphics fail to impress as much as they used to do. My Athlon 1,53Ghz and GF4Ti4400 are struggling with Mafia, while older games look as good and run without a hiccup.

  • Gestalt #226 10 years ago

    "If you want the graphics to improve turn on anti-aliasing"

    That's not going to do anything about draw distance. :)


    "you wouldnt expect to win the british grand prix on your first go with f1gp4 would you"

    Not really, but a Grand Prix game is dedicated to racing Grand Prix cars, and Mafia isn't. It's an action game with some driving bits, none of which really compare to the race mission. You don't get any opportunity to practice for it, there's no learning curve to work your way up, the car is much faster than anything else in the game (certainly up to that point), you have to win to continue the game and the chances are you're playing with a keyboard instead of a steering wheel or joypad. It's a nice idea, but the implementation is poor.

  • FWB #227 10 years ago

    It's an action game with some driving bits, none of which really compare to the race mission.

    Really? What I'm playing seems to be a driving game with some action bits, which, when the crop up, have been good.

  • Viktor #228 10 years ago


    If Mafia is a "driving game", then Morrowind is a "pedestrian simulation". I think somebody -- game researchers in the universities, perhaps? -- should work on the concept of game genres and offer some better options than the current abstractions. The primary form of transportation in a game hardly is enough to make such a classification, driving simulations of course being a different thing.

    I would bet 99% of those who buy Mafia will think it's an action game and be horrified by the race mission. I'm a Grand Prix Legends player, so after getting used to the horrible racing AI I won the race on the third try. But it's a shame how the computer drives...

  • jaa #229 10 years ago

    Czech what?... ;)

  • Super Stu #230 10 years ago

    I can't really think of any clever counter argument to that ramble, so I'm just going to tell you to piss off.

  • FWB #231 10 years ago

    lol. What a great post Zombo. Exactly where can I find this patch you're talking of and how is the sound better? (Rhetorical question)

    Czech republic is little country in Middle Europe

    Take a look at the name of this site: Eurogamer. We're not Americans. We do know where countries are.

    If Mafia is a "driving game", then Morrowind is a "pedestrian simulation".

    Except Morrowind actually has an environment that you can interact with on your travels. Sure it can get long winded at times, but there are always little caves to explore, monsters to kill, things to steal. Mafia's transport is immensely boring. The car chasing/shooting is fun, but how often does that happen?

    Also, why do I always have to drive half way across town to get my mission and then drive back the other way to take it on? Why not have objectives closer to one another?

    I would bet 99% of those who buy Mafia will think it's an action game and be horrified by the race mission.

    And rightly so. The title is "Mafia" not "Mafia Driver" or "Mafia Racer". If they'd actually advertised it as a driving game I wouldn't mind, because I'd have stayed away (my first and last lesson in not playing a demo or reading a review before buying a game). This game has got great reviews because of its hype, that's it.
    Edited by FWB at 13/09/02 @ 15:17

  • sam_spade #232 10 years ago

    It's just a number.

  • otto #233 10 years ago

    Maverick, relax, the Czech Republic is a lovely country with really nice people, the fact that someone finds fault with a game that happens to have been developed there does not change that fact. This has nothing to do with the nationality of the developers or reviewers. Mediocre games can be made anywhere, in fact they are. Go back through the reviews on this site and you'll find plenty of critical reviews of games coming from the UK (not least Black & White, a high profile British game that got spanked in its review on EG). You'll also find lots of praise for developers from central & eastern Europe, for example here. You have no reason to be on the defensive.

  • hulahoops #234 10 years ago

    What he said - did you actually read the B&W review?!

  • hulahoops #235 10 years ago

    American tastes tend to differ from European tastes. B&W is a prime example. I have never even heard the idea entertained that a journalist might score a game lower simply because it wasn't developed in their home country.

  • sam_spade #236 10 years ago

    In fact, I remember a lot of reviews for Serious Sam praising the work of the Croatian team and some said it was a delight to see new players in the market. And that received high scores across the board.

  • FWB #237 10 years ago

    I have never even heard the idea entertained that a journalist might score a game lower simply because it wasn't developed in their home country.
    Same here. The only time I may bring up nationality in a game is when it is so blatently bred into it... e.g. America's Army. Otherwise a good game is a good game no matter where it is from. My favourite games of all time are Deus Ex and Europa Universalis 2. The latter is Swedish and I have nothing to do with that country.

    As for Mafia, I think the issue here, Maverick, is that some people, and I'm included, simply think its a shitty game. It got 4/10 because it deserved it, although I've already said I think even that was generous.

  • otto #238 10 years ago

    It's true that B&W didn't get a score on EG, I think because the reviewer felt that any score would be too subjective and detract from the review he'd written (see the comments). I think you're best off ignoring the scores (when the review has one) and concentrating on the written review. You'll find that Mafia and Black & White seem to come out roughly equal in EG's estimation that way. Both highly anticipated games, both rather disappointing in their execution (according to EG - I don't know, I haven't played Mafia, but I agree with them on B&W which I didn't enjoy at all).

    The moral of the story, as has been said so many times: drop the 'points out of ten' scoring system. It just distracts people. :)

  • Gestalt #239 10 years ago

    Hang on, what's this?

    "Each mission is followed by a long and badly acted cut scene... I'm also not convinced with the cars. They're all 1930's bone shakers. There's a few surprises but in the main they're very slow and very crap to handle, which just isn't fun at all... My main complaint about it now is that its bloody difficult, and there's no save anywhere, so there's a lot of play, die, replay."

    Now, who could have said that? Why, it's Slim. The same person who said here that "marking a 1930's game down on having authentic 1930's speed cars" is silly and that only two of the game's twenty missions are hard. Shurely shome mishtake? ;)

  • Super Stu #240 10 years ago

    I wonder how many people would continue to get on their high horse if all this bickering was done face to face.

    The internet: a perfect, anonymous soap box, breeder of an untold number of plebs. Bring back the days of 10p a minute calls to Prestel, that'll soon filter out these gimps.

  • otto #241 10 years ago

    The review doesn't have a score. So how is it going to appear on gamerankings?

    o_O

  • Mr_Sleep #242 10 years ago

    Ahh another comment from me in the, what i thought dead, Mafia topic.

    I finished it in under a week, not spending more than a few hours on it at a time, whoever says it is too difficult is wrong in my opinion. It is however awkward, the scene at the end is a perfect example where one gets mowed down by a Tommy Gun easily, requiring one to almost cheat to shoot your opponent. There are several other bits of the game which almost require one to use scum cheesy tactics to succeed, which is rather dissapointing.

    I found it entertaining enough and the Freeride Extreme looks to be a good laugh since there are no coppers around. The later cars that one gets from Lucas Bertoni make up for the other rather poor cars at the start.

    Mafia isn't exactly a world beater, but it is something to fill the void, although personally I would buy Medieval Total War instead, that is a quality game.
    Edited by Mr_Sleep at 17/09/02 @ 14:35

  • Whizzo #243 10 years ago

    the feckin thing is so slow even on my gf4 o/c to feck
    Strangely enough it's probably your soundcard causing the problems not your GF4. Using my PC's onboard Nforce sound the performance would regularly drop to single digits and be awful, having put an Audigy in I can now run it at 1024x768x32 with some AA on my GF3 perfectly.

  • Razz #244 10 years ago

    "in one mission you find yourself caught in an ambush in a multi-storey car park. Now, the logical place to autosave would be when you reach your meeting place on the top floor, just before the shooting begins. Instead it autosaves at the beginning of the cinematic showing you driving up to the front of the building, leaving you to skip through two cutscenes and climb three flights of stairs before you can get back into the action if you have to restart the level. "

    Funnily enough I'm stuck on this bit.

    I just read this review today! Gestalt you evil man. Mafia is amazing. Your concerns are duly noted, pretty much everything you've said about Mafia is true. However, you concerntrate too much on these negative aspects of the game, then again, not everyone may see them as negative.

    Anyway, my point. Gestalt I have alot of respect for you due too your usual quite well balanced reviews, but this one, this one is just... well... not.

  • UncleLou #245 10 years ago

    That level is what was in the demo. Quite tough, the fighting in the car-park. But there was only one cut-scene to skip, in the demo that is.

  • UncleLou #246 9 years ago

    Months later, on another planet: Er, I am playing Mafia right now, quite far into it already, and it's downright wonderful. It has its flaws, but at every second on on every corner of the game you can see it was a labour of love. I've never seen a game before with such an incredible eye for details. And the graphics are still nothing short of amazing. Frankly, I feel sorry for anyone who missed out on this because of the score, cause a game like that comes along once a year at best. A 9 out of 10 for me, marked down because of the niggles.
    Edited by UncleLou at 14/03/03 @ 00:53

  • lost_soul #247 9 years ago

    I really enjoyed it as well, in fact this is one of a very small number of PC games that I've been bothered enough about to complete over the last couple of years. The story was good and kept me playing, the third person shooter levels had loads of atmosphere and were great fun to play, the only weak part of the game IMO was the driving which could have been improved massively by removing the incredibly strict speed limits and letting you run red lights.

  • UncleLou #248 9 years ago

    I am constantly violating speed limits and red light, that's half the fun, isn't it? And unlike GTA3, where the police always seems to know where you are, you can really get rid of the police here by taking sidestreets until they lose track of you.

    Btw, these shootouts are some of the most brilliant moments I have encountered in an action game for years. Like that shootout in the church, for instance, bloody marvellous.
    Edited by UncleLou at 14/03/03 @ 11:04

  • Whizzo #249 9 years ago

    It is a good game. I must get back to the Freeride Extreme mode and finish it, some of the challenges are "extremely" difficult to say the least.

    UL if you're trying to keep legal with the speed limit just hit the limiter button! Makes it rather easier when trying to avoid antagonising the cops.
    Edited by Whizzo at 14/03/03 @ 11:18

  • UncleLou #250 9 years ago

    Cheers Whizzo, I know about that button, but I don't like using it. :-)

    Must admit I cheated at the race. Trying to win this with the keyboard seems impossible. Feel very guilty about it nonetheless. :(

  • Orange #251 8 years ago

    Worth bringing back to the top of the pile, one of my favourite reviews.

    Shame to see the score of 4/10 being removed though.

  • UncleLou #252 8 years ago

    /makes another glass of Orange juice

  • tiddles #253 8 years ago

    Maybe Gestalt can be persuaded to come back for one last mission... to review Def Jam: Fight For New York?

  • quantumsheep #254 5 years ago

    \o/

    First in 2007!!! =)

  • Razz #255 5 years ago

    Gah!

  • Syrette #256 5 years ago

    Jesus. Wept.

  • crozon #257 4 years ago

    last in 07............

    oh.........terrible terrible review.........deserve to be shot i tell ya.........:)

  • urban #258 4 years ago

    you're a cock gestalt.

  • superjag86 #259 4 years ago

    Eurogamer -1
    I know reviews are subjective but a 4? Really?!

  • mkreku #260 4 years ago

    Haha! I can't help but read this once in a while. It really is the worst review I've ever read! It's so bad it's hilarious!

  • Nill #261 4 years ago

    Had to join in here ...

    Great game, although slightly frustrating.


    Where's Gestalt nowadays anyway?

  • TheSnotGoblin #262 3 years ago

    As good as Godfather II then?


    Where'd this Gestalt fellah go then?

  • Syon #263 3 years ago

    The guy who reviewed this game failed at first mission and so the final score came up. That's the only explanation I can get. Hence, I dunno why I'm still registered on this site. That's my fail...

  • smelly #264 2 years ago

    Ive not played this game.. but i figured we needed some more comments on here as the reviewer is obviously wrong.

  • Paul_cz #265 2 years ago

    Whoa. Did I just step into time machine or something ? I mistook it for Mafia 2 review !

  • czaczi87 #266 1 year ago

    I can't believe that the reviewer gave this brilliant game a mere 4/10 but I got to say that the review itself is so funny and well-written that I can cut this guy some slack :D

    Great game though, one of the best.

  • souaden12 #267 11 months ago

    Ok this is the stupided review I've ever seen about a game.
    Let me start off by saying that Mafia is one of the best games created. The game has an amazing storyline, engaging gameplay, and very interesting main character.

    "Where GTA3 is packed full of fast, exciting cars to steal and drive, Mafia is stuck with lumbering clunkers that hobble along at a snail's pace and accelerate from nought to sixty in a time that is measured in minutes rather than seconds"

    Well mr reviewer, this is a dumb criticism. First of all you can't expect cars in a game set in the 30s to work the exact way, or to drive as fast as cars in a game set in the 90s or 2000s. This thing you're criticizing is called authenticity. Imaging a game set in the 30s with cars that drive 150 miles per hour, and accelerate to 100 miles per hour in few second!.

    "The game has also taken a leaf from GTA3's book when it comes to save games, or the lack thereof. There's no way to manually save your position, and although the game does at least autosave at set points in most missions, these are few and far between and often stupidly placed"

    You still comparing the game to GTA3. Let me say that I as a hardcore gamer prefer games that don't allow me to save whereever I want, this would just make the game way too easy. When you play a game you want to feel challenged, so autosaves in this game work very well in making the game challenging to play.

    "It doesn't help that combat is downright lethal; a few lucky shots is enough to take you down, and a close-up encounter with a pump-action shotgun will kill you instantly"

    Well how do you want the AI to kill you? By firing hundreds of shots until you can die? You seem to criticize the game for being close to realism with the gameplay. Four shots from the AI will kill you, and four shots at them will kill them as well.

    "In one mission, for example, you are told to "lose the tail". Assuming that it meant I should .. well, lose the tail, I proceeded to drive at breakneck pace through the city until the car that had been chasing us got stuck in the traffic. On reaching Salieri's bar I was rewarded with the message "lose the tail". Apparently Illusion's idea of losing a tail is to massacre everyone in the car and the bar across the road, and then drive off at 40 mph"

    This is not correct, it happened to no one that I know who played the game. In this mission you simply lose the people chasing you, and then drive to the bar and a cutscene triggers. So where u got the thing about having to kill the people chasing you from, I don't freaking know!!

    Overall, a very bias review, with daft criticism that sometimes don't even make sense, or are incorrect.