No level cap in next Fallout?

By Oli Welsh Published 30 January, 2009

Bethesda says it's learned its lesson.

Bethesda has hinted that the next Fallout game may not have a level cap - and might be playable infinitely.

MTV asked executive producer Todd Howard what the greatest lesson learned from Fallout 3's development was, as an indication of what we might expect from Fallout 4.

"Greatest lesson? Don't let the game end, and don't have a level cap," he answered.

There's no way of knowing how serious Howard was being, but it's a mouth-watering thought for Fallout fans all the same.

The developer expressed an intention to make several Fallout games even before Fallout 3 sold like hot cakes last year. There's no indication of a date for Fallout 4, or even confirmation it's in development yet, so sit tight.

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About Oli Welsh

Oli is Eurogamer's acting deputy editor and reviews editor and likes to take things one word at a time. He is among the best dressed people in South London.

Read more articles from Oli by visiting the Oli Welsh archive page.

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Comments (58) Latest comment 3 years ago

Comments threads automatically close after 30 days, but please feel free to continue chatting on the forum!

  • JahB #1 3 years ago

    hell yeah, sound good to me. now give me a release date

  • MaxiSleep #2 3 years ago

    Fuck sake but this is exactly the lesson learned from fallout 1!!!!!!!!!!!!

  • Katsumoto #3 3 years ago

    hopefully lesson number 2 is "hire some voice actors" ;)! The game, whilst ace, would become so much better with a little talent in the writing/acting department. People said the same after Oblivion mind you so maybe Bethesda don't want to learn that particular lesson.

    The abrupt ending was certainly a bit gash as well, good to see that's going to remedied for the next one.

  • michaelius #4 3 years ago

    How about balancing your game so player doesn't have maxed levels after checking a quater of the world :D

  • PearOfAnguish #5 3 years ago

    How about, don't make ridiculous statements about there being 'hundreds of endings'. I'd have been happy with one proper ending.

  • ps3owner #6 3 years ago

    Fallout 4? when's that due ? (btw, I have read the bulletin, just wondering)

  • Eraysor #7 3 years ago

    Trouble is, at level 20 you're pretty much unstoppable anyway.

  • penhalion #8 3 years ago

    How about not having scaling monsters, so that you actually feel like your getting stronger!

  • munki83 #9 3 years ago

    Considering that Elder Scrolls 4 isnt due to 2010/2011 I'd guess fallout will be a few years after that.

  • FlipC #10 3 years ago

    So presumably they're working on a patch right now for 3 to turn off the level-cap... yeah thought not - buy our sequel kiddies.

  • crazyhorse174 #11 3 years ago

    "Considering that Elder Scrolls 4 isnt due to 2010/2011 I'd guess fallout will be a few years after that. "

    Sorry to be pedantic, but I think you mean TES 5...

  • 4thVariety #12 3 years ago

    I'd also not mind the assets not being that depressingly ruined all the time. Look at the Bikini Atoll, nothing but a Moon crater 50 years ago and now it's a radioactive jungle.

    Who cares about endless levels, all it breeds are opponents having your level +1 to keep it interesting. If only numbers decide, the game will feel boring.

    I would rather see the game rewarding players who aim themselves. It can't be that I do have a 95% chance for a headshot in VAC and miss every self-aiming headshot due to an ungodly amount of weapon imprecision outside of VAC. The game was supposed to be for VAC users AND fps fans. Shooting without VAC is nothing but a colossal waste of ammo. You miss most shots you aligned correctly.

  • Vistrix #13 3 years ago

    They didnt learn anything, they just ignored it for Oblivion. Both games have a level cap and ends the game abruptly.

    why would they change now?

  • the_dudefather #14 3 years ago

    have scaling enemies

    after a few weeks You'll have to fight godzilla

  • munki83 #15 3 years ago

    Woops yeah i ment tes 5 i forgot about daggerfall

  • r4z0rbl4d3 #16 3 years ago

    @munki83

    Uhm.. You mean Oblivion...

  • zuljin #17 3 years ago

    @Eraysor
    "Trouble is, at level 8 you're pretty much unstoppable anyway."

    There, fixed that for ya.

  • dr_faulk #18 3 years ago

    Yos!

  • FlipC #19 3 years ago

    @4th Variety: There is a reward for shooting outside of VATS - less degradation of your weapon; and if you do want something that hits where you want it to when manually shooting go and find Lincoln's Repeater Rifle which has a spread of 0.

  • smirny #20 3 years ago

    4allout

  • anomagnus #21 3 years ago

    i'd just concentrate on making the game fun

    in all the fuss over VATS, story, graphics etc, i personally felt they left out FUN

    The game was SOOOO dull, and is one of the few games i never finished

  • Doctor_What #22 3 years ago

    How about unlocking the level cap on Fallout 3 in the meantime? Or at least letting PS3 players get to level 30?

  • Domovoi #23 3 years ago

    They didnt learn anything, they just ignored it for Oblivion. Both games have a level cap and ends the game abruptly.

    Oblivion doesn't end abruptly, it lets you continue playing indefinitely...

    Anyway, yay for no level caps. I never understood what purpose they served.

  • Yossarian #24 3 years ago

    Other lessons to be learned: fun, challenging combat; animation; voice acting; writing of dialogue, plot, and character; deep, intelligent roleplaying; non-broken character development.

  • j1m.ch053n #25 3 years ago

    this will be due 2012 at the earliest i take it and after elder scrolls 5 - now thats the game im really excited about

  • kangarootoo #26 3 years ago

    @Smuggo

    "Baldurs Gate had a level cap, and it was one greatest RPGs of its day, same with many other games at that time."

    I smell a red herring.

    Was Baldur's Gate great BECAUSE it had a level cap, or did its greatness (for other reasons) mean errors like level capping could be overlooked?

  • Buztafen #27 3 years ago

    Must admit the scaling is bit dodgy in Fallout....im level 13 and have been unstoppable for most of the play time....though ive mainly been doing side missions....not even gone to the GNR building to see three dogs yet!. Does it get harder? Toughest opponent ive had so far is Behemoth tho the fat man soon took care of him! :)

  • Evolution #28 3 years ago

    How about having some actual consequences to your actions? I was looking forward to seeing what would happen after the whole quest with Harold but no, we were rewarded with some non-specific footage.

  • Fab4 #29 3 years ago

    The release of infinite Fallout...the day I say goodbye to sleep.

  • skillian #30 3 years ago

    C'mon, the low level cap is obviously a way to sell DLC.

  • Eraysor #31 3 years ago

    Thanks Zuljin ^_^

  • ps3owner #32 3 years ago

    regarding the invincible stuff, it's true... I keep thinking I can rampage all of the time, but there are 2 problems with this approach.
    1. I can't carry enough shit, so I constantly have to go back to megatown to drop my crap off and then repair it, or repair it while I am on the road. but, I can onle repair so much (once perfect it's not repairable). I only carry 2 weapons anyway, laser rifle and minigun ;). but all my ammo. all my drugs, need them dugs man!

    2. Washington, that place (capitol building there abouts) is quite difficult. again, mostly due to the fact that I can't leave anything behind. I am a horder, but only in games. Minimalist at home.

    can't wait for the next Diablo ;)

  • Gecks #33 3 years ago

    todd howard is a moron. fallout 2 had a level cap and was fine. the level is just a number - all players want is a meaningful sense of progression to their character whilst maintaining the sense that you're just a normal guy.

    the real problem is that about 20 hours into the game you can take on multiple super mutants (which, recall, are supposed to be genetically modified and superior to humans in every way) because you are crack shot, whilst also being an expert in lock picking, computers, and rocket science. the levelling is broken, but it's nothing to do with level caps.

    critics love it, and people will pay money to get to "level 30". i'm in the wrong trade.

  • bratmandu #34 3 years ago

    the_dudefather: have scaling enemies

    penhalion: How about not having scaling monsters, so that you actually feel like your getting stronger!

    michaelius: How about balancing your game so player doesn't have maxed levels after checking a quater of the world

    Doctor_What: How about unlocking the level cap on Fallout 3 in the meantime?

    Smuggo: If you had no level cap then perks would lose their value, as you'd eventually be able to acquire them all with no level cap.

    Make your minds up.

    I wanna make sure I'm clear on this - are all you people playin it on the HARDEST difficulty? Cos if ur not, you can't really say you've become too powerful too early. I've been playing Fallout since day one, bought number 2 on it's release date, and I'm well happy with 3.

    On the hardest difficulty, even maxed out I'd still occasionally get my ass handed to me by mutants. In my current game I'm level 12 and although I'm pretty badass, I still get in over my head sometimes. I think the challenge is just right if you set the difficulty accordingly. Ammo and Caps are usually pretty scarce, depending on what weapons you use (I don't even carry any 10mm weapons, I just hunt down magnum and sniper ammo).

    I think the level cap is good, and it's a good thing that the DLC increases it slightly. Without a cap, you just become too powerful and start sympathising with Umbra (hidden char in Morrowind who has beaten everyone and is too powerful and so is bored of life).

    I just hope there's more DLC on the way after March. Like, Knights of the Nine and Shivering Isles sized DLC.



    Edited by 1 at 30/01/09 @ 11:24

  • Barbellion #35 3 years ago

    I would rather have a good ending than a load of shit that goes on forever, or an ending that happens so fast that it doesn't even register.

    Frankly, I would have hoped, like other posters, that the lessons learned might have been more of the 'let's not have the same three twats play all of the characters once we've spent all the money on Liam Neeson' variety. Honestly, the writing and performances in this were so crap it comes close to ruining a great experience.

    Todd Howard wants working over until he's learned his lesson properly. Anyone who lets a performance like Moira's through the door needs a good, hard kick in the testies.

  • bratmandu #36 3 years ago

    @ Smuggo

    Yea I read it

    I wasn't referring to your comments when I mentioned difficulty, I just wanted to check if the people who think it's too easy are using the right difficulty - first time through I didn't even notice there was an option for difficulty and played through on normal.

    I agree that lack of a level cap would devalue perks, and of course efficient or power-levelling will make it easier around level 12 or so, but I pick the stats and perks I wanna pick, depending on the character I'm playing. I don't want to just power my way through the game.

    In my current game, I'm exploring perks that I never used before such as animal friend which is pretty cool and I just picked both lawbringer and contract killer.

    I don't think I'm able to judge if the levelling is broken or not until I get past level 20 in the new DLC. I don't think it is at the minute. If you're out to level up quickly then I think you can, but I play it at my own pace and in my own style, and I enjoy it.
    Edited by 1 at 30/01/09 @ 11:48

  • Daikon #37 3 years ago

    I was at level 20 when I was only halfway through the game... way too easy.

    Another lesson I hope they learned is: perform proper beta testing before releasing the game, way too many bugs.

    Fallout 4 sounds great, but Elder Scrolls V first please!

  • Salt_The_Fries #38 3 years ago

    Yeah, I have 260 G in Fallout 3 and I'm verging on getting 18. level already.

  • bratmandu #39 3 years ago

    Well they said of Oblivion, when someone asked about how it was possible to get too powerful in Morrowind, and would this be an issue in Oblivion - that yes - if you grind and put in a lot of work, you can get ultra powerful, as people who put that effort in deserve a reward for it, but if you play it at your own pace, then you will also be rewarded with a good challenge.

    I think as far as levelling goes, they seem to try and get it right by tinkering with it on each RPG they make. Which is a better way to reach a good balance than just copying the way other games do it. I prefer Bethesda's type of RPG to archaic-turn-based-JRPGS and hardcore d&d of baldur's gate and diablo.

  • Genji #40 3 years ago

    No no no.

    The problem isn't entirely the level cap. It's that, by the time you reach it - hell, even by level 15 or so - basically no fight in the game is a challenge. Switch to VATS, headshot headshot, repeat for as many enemies as there are.

    High level encounters are needed.

  • bratmandu #41 3 years ago

    That's cos it's the 21st Century and genres are becoming blended, blame Deus Ex. If I had enough time to play D&D style rpgs, I'd have bought Hero Quest, not an Xbox.

  • Gecks #42 3 years ago

    i don't think it being RPG lite should necessarily break the levelling. system shock 2 only had a few RPG elements but still knew to keep challenging the player. i don't understand why bethesda have such a problem with showing players fights they can't win. that whole mechanic of wandering into a hellish area, getting beasted and then going back and building up your skills to face it later, are a great element of all exploration games, never mind RPGs.

    the thing is, FO3 is hardest in the first 5 hours (after you leave the fault), and then gets progressively easier. it wouldn't be so bad but those first 5 hours were brilliant - so immersive and rewarding.

  • Xeopuppy #43 3 years ago

    So no more Elder Scrolls then???

    I really can't get away with Fallout.

  • SomaticSense #44 3 years ago

    What a sarcastic git...

    The problem was not with the level cap, but the rate at which the game allowed you to level up. Being at the maximum despite only being about 25/30% through the game really lessened the incentive to carry on. No ones asking for infinite level ups, just better balancing when it comes to XP dealt out and the rate of level ups versus the length of the game.

    As far the game ending. Again, what got up people's chuff was the fact that finishing the story pretty much ended your save file, and didn't allow you to then roam the world at your leisure, finish any side quests or play through DLC without having to load up a previous file, which lessens the immersion. No ones asking for an infinite fucking story.

    Like I said, I don't think he was being serious at all, but sounds to me like he just being a bit of a sarcastic 'we know best' twat.

  • UncleLou #45 3 years ago

    Don't care much, either way. At the moment, the level cap doesn't do much, anyway, because together with perks and bobbleheads, you can be a near-perfect allrounder at level 20. Which is a bit boring. Level cap or not, it needs to be balanced better, and let the decisions I make in character development matter.

  • SomaticSense #46 3 years ago

    That precisely it. The problem wasn't the cap, but the balancing.

  • Pastici #47 3 years ago

    I love it, but was surprised at how often you get the perks, by level 9 (or 12, depending on original chosen perks) in the first 2 you'd only have 3 additional perks. That gave the perks more value I believe.

  • the_mtfr #48 3 years ago

    "it's a mouth-watering thought for Fallout fans"

    No, it's not. I'm not salivating for having an infinite Fallout. I actually love a good story with A GOOD ENDING. I also don't care very much for having more than 2 endings.

  • AbyssUK #49 3 years ago

    Forget Fallout and Eldar Scrolls please make a new SkyNET and FutureShock.

  • Genji #50 3 years ago

    The death of Elder Scrolls can't come soon enough, imho. Generic, charmless trash that it is.

    Bethesda should hire some better writers - hint: steal some from Bioware - for the next Fallout, though.

  • schnide #51 3 years ago

    You lot can moan all you want. I've just got into Fallout 3, and sure it isn't perfect, but it's pretty fucking good and better than almost every other game I've played recently. If you can all complete Fallout 3 and find nothing better to do than moan about it then you're far too good for games and really need something better to do (like write to Points of View, for example).

  • Chalee #52 3 years ago

    How about they actually make it fun?

  • metalangel #53 3 years ago

    First, as many have said, how is this a lesson? After the first Fallout, Black Isle learned this and removed both the controversial time limit concept (having already taken the overall "finish the game" one out of the original with a patch) from the sequel. And Oblivion let you play on. Second, getting to level 20 in either of the original games was a huge undertaking. Is it any wonder people say FO3 is easy when you have an unstoppable level 20 character within hours?

  • Genji #54 3 years ago

    "Does that mean I have the AIDS and will die very soon?"

    Yes, unfortunately. Better get a will and testament drawn up, post haste!

    Seriously, though, I'm glad that you liked Oblivion. I didn't, but I'm glad that you did. I didn't want to dislike any of the Elder Scrolls games. Believe me, I would very much rather enjoy a game.

    As for Fallout... I do enjoy it. I like it a lot, even though I like the original games more. But even though I like it, I also like to discuss the things that I didn't like about it, and the things that I think can be improved upon. I don't like to come on here just to type "OH WOW WHAT AN AWESOME GAME" and leave it at that. That's not interesting to me.

    So I do object to people on here telling me to "stop moaning", as if this was a place to post only tribute instead of comment. I am not "moaning", I am discussing. And a good discussion requires some difference of opinion. Ideally, the anti-moaning people would further the discussion by rebutting those opinions, instead of just dismissing them out of hand.

    /rant over
    Edited by 1 at 31/01/09 @ 01:04

  • foamy #55 3 years ago

    new. fucking. engine. Those Oblivion character animations are waaaaaay too old.

  • Sunyavadin #56 3 years ago

    How about a fallout MMO?

  • metalangel #57 3 years ago

    There is an MMO in the works, I think. As far as I recall, they only sold the rights to make single player Fallout games.

  • lmephisto #58 3 years ago

    Fallout is ecxelent game with great ideas but is true it needs balance! its nice that u get XP from disarming mines or picking locks and hack terminals is really great you get XP with speeches its nice that every attribute is usefull and its even nicer when u can find bobbleheads and books :p But all together makes ur character indeed GOD ecxept in hard mode but still the character is a GOD.
    Now if they remove the level cup or add more levels they will have to add more powerfull units or it will be soooooooo pointless and even boring.....I dont mind start over again playing fallout as i did 3 times so far but when reach lvl 20 so easily i just wanna stop because of one detail.....I LOVE SEEING XP POINTS WHEN I KILL CREATURES :p