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Datel sues Microsoft over mem unit ban News
Xbox 360 News by Tom Bramwell
Datel has filed an antitrust lawsuit against Microsoft after the Xbox 360 platform holder's most recent dashboard update disabled support for third-party memory units.
The complaint, filed in San Francisco federal court by Datel's representatives Howard Rice, accuses Microsoft of "exclusionary, predatory, or anticompetitive acts".
It also dismisses the company's official explanation for the patch - that third-party memory units can be used to cheat on Xbox Live - as a "pretext" for establishing a monopoly on third-party accessories.
Just over a month ago, Microsoft announced it was banning third-party memory units and that anyone using one should buy an official alternative or they would lose access to their profile and saved games.
Datel founder Mike Connors has said that the third-party peripheral company has sold more than 50,000 such unofficial memory units, and that the only difference between its offerings and Microsoft's is that the official unit "offers only one-quarter the memory while listing for the same retail price".
"Microsoft has taken steps to render inoperable the competing Datel memory card for no visible purpose other than to have that market entirely to themselves," said Howard Rice director Marty Glick in a statement (thanks GameSpot).
The lawfirm's statement concluded: "Datel recognises Microsoft's right to innovate. But the recent 'upgrade' to the Xbox 360 is not innovation. It is predatory conduct undertaken to deliberately harm competition with no benefit whatsoever to consumers."
Microsoft has yet to respond.
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altitude2k
24/11/09 @ 09:49
+5
Datel are like Iran. They are developing a technology that could potentially be used for good, but is most likely not.
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+7
@Zomoniac:
"And the fact that one can be used to cheat on Xbox Live and the other can't." Fair point, but it seems rather heavy handed for MS to outright ban use of those cards, since many people already own them and most are probably using them perfectly legitimately. Really MS fixing security holes in the 360 by banning third-party hardware is pretty crappy behaviour from a consumer perspective, so personally I'm with Datel on this one. |
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darkmorgado
24/11/09 @ 09:53
+23
@TenMinJoe, if I remember correctly, they allow code to be introduced to the Xbox which can allow the use of things like auto-aim bots, bypassing CD checks (for piracy), etc etc.
And I wish Eurogamer would stop saying that MS have banned ALL third-party units. They haven't. They have banned UNLICENSED units, meaning companies that have refused to let MS perform quality control (and ensure the units comply with MS standards). The two are TOTALLY different things. |
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altitude2k
24/11/09 @ 09:59
+14
They are not banning third party peripherals - they're banning the uncertified ones.
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Markusdragon
24/11/09 @ 10:18
+4
I suspect that the courts are a better place to handle the legality of such devices than the comments boxes of gaming news sites and blogs
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-2
Perhaps Datel should try and work WITH Microsoft rather than try to undercut them and exploit loop-holes pretending they are the 'saviours' of gaming. Like it or not the console belongs to Microsoft and they alone should have the choice of what is supported and what isn't.
Cheaper is not always better. They can keep heir 'cheat' devices I'd rather spend a little extra to get Official products I know will last and not corrupt after 5 minutes. |
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-2
rodpad: Datel Trasnfer Kits are the units cheaters use to hack their gamercards, which is completly, tottally against the TOS, and, in my opinion it's better to ask Datel to comply to whatever MS says is better to keep Live healthy than go anarchy (in the UK... sorry!).
This is not personally against you, but I find it most odd whn ppl go naive and talk about the legal uses of this shit devices or R4's or something. Want this kinda of freedom, buy a PC and the internet. Sorry... /rant off.
Edited 1 times,
most recently on 24/11/09 @ 10:40
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Earlyflash
24/11/09 @ 10:40
+4
The xbox 360 transfer kit works on the hard drive, not via the memory card as far as I remember.
This will stop almost no-one changing their profile, as you can just as easily do it with the USB Hard Drive Transfer kit to a PC. Seems to be definitely about owning the market imo. |
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0
So they are bitching and sueing MS for not allowing cheaters and uncertified products on the console? Sure, why wouldnt i want someone that is bragging about achievements copied from an untrusty mem card. I remember those. They were called "shark" something since PSOne. You enter codes to cheat etc. Remove the freaking cheating software from the cards and get certified. You will still make money. Dumbasses. Instead they preffer wasting their time sueing MS over this.. Nice. I wonder how the owners of this company ever made moneyt in the first place when he isnt capable to think that far.
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kangarootoo
24/11/09 @ 11:06
+8
Can someone technical (as in, someone who knows how this stuff works - there are a few on here, but only a few) explain why a Datel memory card can be used for nefarious purposes when a MS one cannot?
I can stick any SD card or USB stick I like in my PS3, and it can't do shit except store data. What is the difference here? Could MS not patch out the ability to do the dodgy stuff without removing the ability to just store data in the normal manner? |
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kangarootoo
24/11/09 @ 11:09
+10
@EarlBassett
Christ you are boring. In a nutshell, boring. I can't recall the last time I read a post from you that wasn't just critising EG for one thing or another. Why are you even here? Seriously? Do you stand in rivers shouting at passersby about how annoyed you are that your feet are wet? What is wrong with you? |
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+3
@darkmorgado I was following your argument until you used the phrase "MS perform quality control" Like their track record in that area is flawless.
I think most people realise that MS's strategy with 360 was to sell a cheap base console and boost profitability by selling relatively expensive custom add-ons like the wireless NIC, HDD drives and mem cards. |
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0
I don't think Datel have a chance in this case and it may turn against them and cost them big financially. MS could battle this in court and spend millions on their defence to protect their service or they may turn around and file a counter-claim for Datel allowing products which conflict with the TOS. Watch this space... but I am sure the space will end up with Datel losing, one way or another.
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+2
Can someone technical (as in, someone who knows how this stuff works - there are a few on here, but only a few) explain why a Datel memory card can be used for nefarious purposes when a MS one cannot?
I can stick any SD card or USB stick I like in my PS3, and it can't do shit except store data. What is the difference here? Could MS not patch out the ability to do the dodgy stuff without removing the ability to just store data in the normal manner? I know you asked for someone technical who actually knows stuff, and I'm not, but I'll tell you what I do know: For reasons I don't know (probably because they glitch so often the first time) Xbox Live allows achievements to unlock retrospectively. Quite often if you earn an achievement in a game and it doesn't unlock, the next time you boot up the game it will unlock. So if you can get someone's legit 1kd game save that's locked to their profile, hack it to make it lock to your profile, stick it on an SD-card based storage like the Datel unit, it will unlock all the achievements as soon as you boot the game. PS3's don't do that. There's no retrospective unlocking, it will only be triggered at the time of the event, so no matter how many platinum trophy gamesaves you download, you won't get the trophies without playing it yourself. That's what all the people who had their gamerscore zeroed were doing. You can tell who's doing it because achievements don't unlock in the right order, so you'll get complete the game appearing before complete level 1, or play for 50 hours unlocking on the same day as play for 5 hours. |
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+3
@kangarootoo - If it's anything like the Datel products I used on the original Xbox, then the problem is that Datel allow the user to copy files from their memory cards onto a PC whereas Microsoft don't with theirs because there's no software to do it. Obviously once you get game save data onto a PC you can then edit/change/alter it and then copy it back onto the console. This constitues cheating in Microsoft's book. This kind of thing was used on the Xbox to exploit security flaws in the game saves to allow users to enable component video on UK machines and install third-party software, etc.
Microsoft are obviously concerned that Xbox 360 owners will use this kind of thing to cheat in online games so they're quite rightly trying to put a stop to it. |
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kangarootoo
24/11/09 @ 11:54
+3
@Zomoniac
I get the retrospective achievement unlock thing, and the locking to profile that you describe. But what is it about a Datel card that allows the savegame to be hacked? Surely the savegame is enrypted in some way, as it wouldn't be beyond the ability of someone to make a card reader that accepts MS's own memory cards, so the data needs protecting regardless of where it is stored? On the same note, some PS3 saves aren't transferable, and some saves are now locked to the PSN profile that created them (I forget which games, but I've seen a few). Now we have trophies I would expect this to be come more common. But all of this sits alongside a save system that is based on an open memory card system. Cheers for the input though :) |
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kangarootoo
24/11/09 @ 11:55
+3
@Darren
That makes more sense. So is there no card readers out there (legit or otherwise) that can read data from a legit MS meory card? I assumed above that there must be, but I'm happy to be wrong :) |
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+1
I get the retrospective achievement unlock thing, and the locking to profile that you describe. But what is it about a Datel card that allows the savegame to be hacked? Surely the savegame is enrypted in some way, as it wouldn't be beyond the ability of someone to make a card reader that accepts MS's own memory cards, so the data needs protecting regardless of where it is stored?
I guess that licensed products have some key on them to make it harder to hack, or that it was just easier to make something that the 360 could read rather than something that could read the 360, IYSWIM. Perhaps a 360 memory card reader will emerge as a result of this, but it would've been harder than the SD memory card so up to now was unnecessary. |
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0
@ kanga: you're incorrect about that, PSN has the same problem with USB devices, diference is its network is not as mainstream, they don't seem to care (as much). For now.
edit: , "/link removed". Yes Nameless, you're right, let's not spread shity behavior.
Edited 3 times,
most recently on 24/11/09 @ 12:14
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MasterNameless
24/11/09 @ 12:10
+1
Yeah, I've heard of people cheating in Modern Warfare (1) on PS3 by messing with the game save on a PS3 then copying it back onto the memory card. There were even video's on youtube showing people how to do it very recently. I'm not too willing to link it, even though it is easily found. :/
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SpaceMidget75
24/11/09 @ 12:14
+7
So can someone give me a list of licensed 3rd party peripherals?
No wireless controllers except for some instruments. No racing wheels with force feedback unless you want to spend £300. No Wifi adapters. No HDDs. No memory cards. (I could be wrong here) No wireless Headsets. I love my 360 but I don't think I've ever owned a console that limited my choice of addons whilst at the same time charged so much for first party stuff before. EDIT: For the record I have no problem with them restricting things that may introduce hacking but it would be nice if they then lowered the price a touch. There's no fucking excuse for things like the racing wheels though. The license price must be pretty high for Logitech to not have made one.
Edited 1 times,
most recently on 24/11/09 @ 12:17
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0
No racing wheels with force feedback unless you want to spend £300.
http://gear.ign.com/articles/747/747438p... it's 99 pounds. No wireless controllers except for some instruments. 3rd party wireless controllers work, they were not banned. Game has a line of their own for instance. No wireless Headsets. See line above. Just out of curiosity, where did you read/get all that?
Edited 1 times,
most recently on 24/11/09 @ 12:22
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SpaceMidget75
24/11/09 @ 12:30
+1
Hi miiiguel,
That wheel is official not 3rd party which is what I'm talking about. As far as I'm aware the only other wheel that supports 'proper' force feedback is the Fanatec which are silly money. Can I have a link to wireless third party controllers? Other than the instruments that MS had to allow for obvious reasons. As for the wireless headsets, the only one I'm aware of that talks direct with the 360 is the official one, unless you have another link? ;) Cheers BTW, I didn't neg you. :)
Edited 1 times,
most recently on 24/11/09 @ 12:31
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SpaceMidget75
24/11/09 @ 12:37
+7
I'm all for the ratings system on EG but I think if you're gonna neg someone who clearly isn't trolling and IMHO is making a decent point it would be nice if you were man enough to give a reason....whoever you are.
I don't even own a PS3 but the fact that the Madcatz pad is wireless on PS3 but not on the 360 and the fact that they have a range of force feedback wheels to choose from are my main points here. Care to explain why thats so wrong? |
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-2
@ Space:
//http://www.amazon.co.uk/Saitek-PX3200-Ru... http://www.amazon.co.uk/Mad-Catz-Street-... http://www.amazon.co.uk/Venom-Twin-Charg... Now! Check this out!!!: http://www.amazon.co.uk/Mad-Catz-Call-Du... If all they're worried about is cheating on Live, why does the update also affect XBox Live Silver members? huh? Do you think that makes sense. What you said? There are a few reasosn: - Xbox Live Silver, is still Xbox Live - You have times when you can play online even being silver, and on those times Live better behave because the purpose is to bring new users to the system. - Cheating is not only in online game playing. - Today you're Silver, tomorrow you can be Gold. - A system is independant of the profile. That means, Live is a private network, in order to login one must comply with the requirements if you don't want to connect to the private network Live, you may refuse the update.
Edited 1 times,
most recently on 24/11/09 @ 12:44
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SpaceMidget75
24/11/09 @ 12:47
+3
That's great mate except that none of those are wireless or licensed.
The lack of both of these things on almost all third party stuff suggests that MS are making it very difficult and/or expensive for 3rd parties. Like I said, anything that can abuse Live, fair enough. But contollers et al? Come on. Nice one phantom negger. You're really contributing here. ;) |
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+4
Not quite sure why people are downrating my comments which state technical facts about what the memory cards can and can't do. I'm not supporting datel/cheating nor condeming it.
Of course the memory card is open to saved game and achievement fiddling. However, feel free to rate up people talking nonsense that a memory card can add something like aimbots through the locked down hypervisor on the 360. It doesn't "bypass CD checks" for piracy either. |
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Stormflood
24/11/09 @ 13:36
+2
I bought a Datel memory unit because it was cheaper and had much larger capacity. Now it's useless because MS prefer people to buy their overpriced peripherals. Thanks MS.
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+3
Surely your problem is with Datel for knowingly selling a product they knew had not gone through the MS certification process. As far as I see it as they choose to not go through the certification process they knew that at any point MS could just decide to not support their devices and yet they continued to sell them.
This really is not MS's fault as a hardware manufacturer is under no obligation to support third party products for their product. The certification process that Datel decided not to go through is actually MS stepping up and saying we will consider support of third party products but of course if the third party product maker decides not to bother MS can not force them.
Edited 3 times,
most recently on 24/11/09 @ 13:46
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