Datel sues Microsoft over mem unit ban

By Tom Bramwell Published 24 November, 2009

Attacks "predatory conduct" in lawsuit.

Datel has filed an antitrust lawsuit against Microsoft after the Xbox 360 platform holder's most recent dashboard update disabled support for third-party memory units.

The complaint, filed in San Francisco federal court by Datel's representatives Howard Rice, accuses Microsoft of "exclusionary, predatory, or anticompetitive acts".

It also dismisses the company's official explanation for the patch - that third-party memory units can be used to cheat on Xbox Live - as a "pretext" for establishing a monopoly on third-party accessories.

Just over a month ago, Microsoft announced it was banning third-party memory units and that anyone using one should buy an official alternative or they would lose access to their profile and saved games.

Datel founder Mike Connors has said that the third-party peripheral company has sold more than 50,000 such unofficial memory units, and that the only difference between its offerings and Microsoft's is that the official unit "offers only one-quarter the memory while listing for the same retail price".

"Microsoft has taken steps to render inoperable the competing Datel memory card for no visible purpose other than to have that market entirely to themselves," said Howard Rice director Marty Glick in a statement (thanks GameSpot).

The lawfirm's statement concluded: "Datel recognises Microsoft's right to innovate. But the recent 'upgrade' to the Xbox 360 is not innovation. It is predatory conduct undertaken to deliberately harm competition with no benefit whatsoever to consumers."

Microsoft has yet to respond.

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About Tom Bramwell

Tom is Operations director of Eurogamer Network and Editor-at-Large of Eurogamer.net. He joined the company in February 2000.

Read more articles from Tom by visiting the Tom Bramwell archive page.

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Comments (108) Latest comment 2 years ago

Comments threads automatically close after 30 days, but please feel free to continue chatting on the forum!

  • Zomoniac #1 2 years ago

    the only difference between its offerings and Microsoft's is that the official unit "offers only one-quarter the memory while listing for the same retail price".

    And the fact that one can be used to cheat on Xbox Live and the other can't.

  • altitude2k #2 2 years ago

    Datel are like Iran. They are developing a technology that could potentially be used for good, but is most likely not.

  • TenMinJoe #3 2 years ago

    What do these third-party units do (or not do) that makes cheating easier?

  • Schiraman #4 2 years ago

    @Zomoniac:
    "And the fact that one can be used to cheat on Xbox Live and the other can't."

    Fair point, but it seems rather heavy handed for MS to outright ban use of those cards, since many people already own them and most are probably using them perfectly legitimately. Really MS fixing security holes in the 360 by banning third-party hardware is pretty crappy behaviour from a consumer perspective, so personally I'm with Datel on this one.

  • darkmorgado #5 2 years ago

    @TenMinJoe, if I remember correctly, they allow code to be introduced to the Xbox which can allow the use of things like auto-aim bots, bypassing CD checks (for piracy), etc etc.

    And I wish Eurogamer would stop saying that MS have banned ALL third-party units. They haven't. They have banned UNLICENSED units, meaning companies that have refused to let MS perform quality control (and ensure the units comply with MS standards). The two are TOTALLY different things.

  • BabyJesus #6 2 years ago

    What is more damaging to consumers, banning things that can used to cheat and cheapen the experience. Or just saying "Fuck it, let them cheat away"?
    Edited by 1 at 24/11/09 @ 09:55

  • altitude2k #7 2 years ago

    They are not banning third party peripherals - they're banning the uncertified ones.

  • miiiguel #8 2 years ago

    MS is protecting their most valuable IP, Xbox Live. If they let it tiurn into the "internetz", all is lost.

  • rodpad #9 2 years ago

    Darkmorgado - That's a load of rubbish. You can't "run code" or "bypass CD checks for piracy" by use of a memory card on the 360.

  • Markusdragon #10 2 years ago

    I suspect that the courts are a better place to handle the legality of such devices than the comments boxes of gaming news sites and blogs

  • miiiguel #11 2 years ago

    rodpad: er... Datel sells a "Xbox 360 Transfer kit" which is sold saying it has the possibility of tranfereing game saves between systems/profiles which is against the TOS of Live.

  • rodpad #12 2 years ago

    Miiguel, that's not introducing code. That's introducing data. There's a world of difference. Darkmorgado was specifically referring to code that allows for things such as aim bots.

  • miiiguel #13 2 years ago

    rodpad: Datel Trasnfer Kits are the units cheaters use to hack their gamercards, which is completly, tottally against the TOS, and, in my opinion it's better to ask Datel to comply to whatever MS says is better to keep Live healthy than go anarchy (in the UK... sorry!).

    This is not personally against you, but I find it most odd whn ppl go naive and talk about the legal uses of this shit devices or R4's or something. Want this kinda of freedom, buy a PC and the internet.

    Sorry... /rant off.
    Edited by 1 at 24/11/09 @ 10:40

  • Earlyflash #14 2 years ago

    The xbox 360 transfer kit works on the hard drive, not via the memory card as far as I remember.

    This will stop almost no-one changing their profile, as you can just as easily do it with the USB Hard Drive Transfer kit to a PC.

    Seems to be definitely about owning the market imo.

  • miiiguel #15 2 years ago

    "USB Hard Drive Transfer kit to a PC."
    Those don't work anymore either.

  • rodpad #16 2 years ago

    I was correcting darkmorgado's comment about introducing code. Where did I talk about legal issues? I only spoke of it's technical limitations, ie it can't introduce code, only save data.

  • Avaloner #17 2 years ago

    I am ok with Microsoft's move but they really should drop the price of the official merchandise... especially hard drives.

  • davisorle #18 2 years ago

    So they are bitching and sueing MS for not allowing cheaters and uncertified products on the console? Sure, why wouldnt i want someone that is bragging about achievements copied from an untrusty mem card. I remember those. They were called "shark" something since PSOne. You enter codes to cheat etc. Remove the freaking cheating software from the cards and get certified. You will still make money. Dumbasses. Instead they preffer wasting their time sueing MS over this.. Nice. I wonder how the owners of this company ever made moneyt in the first place when he isnt capable to think that far.

  • KDR_11k #19 2 years ago

    They have banned UNLICENSED units, meaning companies that have refused to let MS perform quality control (and ensure the units comply with MS standards).

    And more importantly pay MS a license fee.

  • Daymare #20 2 years ago

    @EarlBassett

    Here's an idea; instead of complaining over EG in every other comment you make, why don't you go to some place else where they're up to your lofty standards? Or is that too sensible for you?

  • lockload #21 2 years ago

    MS have invested 4billion dollars developing the 360 they have every right to do whatever they want

    Datels argument would be right if xbox was 100% of the gaming market which it is not

  • kangarootoo #22 2 years ago

    Can someone technical (as in, someone who knows how this stuff works - there are a few on here, but only a few) explain why a Datel memory card can be used for nefarious purposes when a MS one cannot?

    I can stick any SD card or USB stick I like in my PS3, and it can't do shit except store data. What is the difference here? Could MS not patch out the ability to do the dodgy stuff without removing the ability to just store data in the normal manner?

  • kangarootoo #23 2 years ago

    @EarlBassett

    Christ you are boring. In a nutshell, boring. I can't recall the last time I read a post from you that wasn't just critising EG for one thing or another.

    Why are you even here? Seriously? Do you stand in rivers shouting at passersby about how annoyed you are that your feet are wet? What is wrong with you?

  • oreillymj #24 2 years ago

    @darkmorgado I was following your argument until you used the phrase "MS perform quality control" Like their track record in that area is flawless.

    I think most people realise that MS's strategy with 360 was to sell a cheap base console and boost profitability by selling relatively expensive custom add-ons like the wireless NIC, HDD drives and mem cards.

  • beckyh #25 2 years ago

    I don't think Datel have a chance in this case and it may turn against them and cost them big financially. MS could battle this in court and spend millions on their defence to protect their service or they may turn around and file a counter-claim for Datel allowing products which conflict with the TOS. Watch this space... but I am sure the space will end up with Datel losing, one way or another.

  • Zomoniac #26 2 years ago

    Can someone technical (as in, someone who knows how this stuff works - there are a few on here, but only a few) explain why a Datel memory card can be used for nefarious purposes when a MS one cannot?

    I can stick any SD card or USB stick I like in my PS3, and it can't do shit except store data. What is the difference here? Could MS not patch out the ability to do the dodgy stuff without removing the ability to just store data in the normal manner?

    I know you asked for someone technical who actually knows stuff, and I'm not, but I'll tell you what I do know:

    For reasons I don't know (probably because they glitch so often the first time) Xbox Live allows achievements to unlock retrospectively. Quite often if you earn an achievement in a game and it doesn't unlock, the next time you boot up the game it will unlock. So if you can get someone's legit 1kd game save that's locked to their profile, hack it to make it lock to your profile, stick it on an SD-card based storage like the Datel unit, it will unlock all the achievements as soon as you boot the game.

    PS3's don't do that. There's no retrospective unlocking, it will only be triggered at the time of the event, so no matter how many platinum trophy gamesaves you download, you won't get the trophies without playing it yourself.

    That's what all the people who had their gamerscore zeroed were doing. You can tell who's doing it because achievements don't unlock in the right order, so you'll get complete the game appearing before complete level 1, or play for 50 hours unlocking on the same day as play for 5 hours.

  • Darren #27 2 years ago

    @kangarootoo - If it's anything like the Datel products I used on the original Xbox, then the problem is that Datel allow the user to copy files from their memory cards onto a PC whereas Microsoft don't with theirs because there's no software to do it. Obviously once you get game save data onto a PC you can then edit/change/alter it and then copy it back onto the console. This constitues cheating in Microsoft's book. This kind of thing was used on the Xbox to exploit security flaws in the game saves to allow users to enable component video on UK machines and install third-party software, etc.

    Microsoft are obviously concerned that Xbox 360 owners will use this kind of thing to cheat in online games so they're quite rightly trying to put a stop to it.

  • kangarootoo #28 2 years ago

    @Zomoniac

    I get the retrospective achievement unlock thing, and the locking to profile that you describe. But what is it about a Datel card that allows the savegame to be hacked? Surely the savegame is enrypted in some way, as it wouldn't be beyond the ability of someone to make a card reader that accepts MS's own memory cards, so the data needs protecting regardless of where it is stored?

    On the same note, some PS3 saves aren't transferable, and some saves are now locked to the PSN profile that created them (I forget which games, but I've seen a few). Now we have trophies I would expect this to be come more common. But all of this sits alongside a save system that is based on an open memory card system.

    Cheers for the input though :)

  • kangarootoo #29 2 years ago

    @Darren

    That makes more sense. So is there no card readers out there (legit or otherwise) that can read data from a legit MS meory card? I assumed above that there must be, but I'm happy to be wrong :)

  • Zomoniac #30 2 years ago

    I get the retrospective achievement unlock thing, and the locking to profile that you describe. But what is it about a Datel card that allows the savegame to be hacked? Surely the savegame is enrypted in some way, as it wouldn't be beyond the ability of someone to make a card reader that accepts MS's own memory cards, so the data needs protecting regardless of where it is stored?

    I guess that licensed products have some key on them to make it harder to hack, or that it was just easier to make something that the 360 could read rather than something that could read the 360, IYSWIM. Perhaps a 360 memory card reader will emerge as a result of this, but it would've been harder than the SD memory card so up to now was unnecessary.

  • miiiguel #31 2 years ago

    @ kanga: you're incorrect about that, PSN has the same problem with USB devices, diference is its network is not as mainstream, they don't seem to care (as much). For now.

    edit: , "/link removed". Yes Nameless, you're right, let's not spread shity behavior.
    Edited by 3 at 24/11/09 @ 12:14

  • MasterNameless #32 2 years ago

    Yeah, I've heard of people cheating in Modern Warfare (1) on PS3 by messing with the game save on a PS3 then copying it back onto the memory card. There were even video's on youtube showing people how to do it very recently. I'm not too willing to link it, even though it is easily found. :/

  • SpaceMidget75 Verified Senior Software Developer, Minerva Computer Services #33 2 years ago

    So can someone give me a list of licensed 3rd party peripherals?

    No wireless controllers except for some instruments.
    No racing wheels with force feedback unless you want to spend £300.
    No Wifi adapters.
    No HDDs.
    No memory cards. (I could be wrong here)
    No wireless Headsets.

    I love my 360 but I don't think I've ever owned a console that limited my choice of addons whilst at the same time charged so much for first party stuff before.

    EDIT: For the record I have no problem with them restricting things that may introduce hacking but it would be nice if they then lowered the price a touch. There's no fucking excuse for things like the racing wheels though. The license price must be pretty high for Logitech to not have made one.
    Edited by 1 at 24/11/09 @ 12:17

  • miiiguel #34 2 years ago

    No racing wheels with force feedback unless you want to spend £300.

    http://ge ar.ign.com/articles/747/747438p... it's 99 pounds.

    No wireless controllers except for some instruments.
    3rd party wireless controllers work, they were not banned. Game has a line of their own for instance.

    No wireless Headsets.
    See line above.


    Just out of curiosity, where did you read/get all that?




    Edited by 1 at 24/11/09 @ 12:22

  • fknetwork #35 2 years ago

    Datel will win this with absolute ease, serves MS right trying to stamp out competition.

  • SpaceMidget75 Verified Senior Software Developer, Minerva Computer Services #36 2 years ago

    Hi miiiguel,

    That wheel is official not 3rd party which is what I'm talking about. As far as I'm aware the only other wheel that supports 'proper' force feedback is the Fanatec which are silly money.

    Can I have a link to wireless third party controllers? Other than the instruments that MS had to allow for obvious reasons.

    As for the wireless headsets, the only one I'm aware of that talks direct with the 360 is the official one, unless you have another link? ;)

    Cheers

    BTW, I didn't neg you. :)
    Edited by 1 at 24/11/09 @ 12:31

  • secombe #37 2 years ago

    Perhaps I'm missing something, but why on earth would people want to 'cheat' the achievements system? I thought it was there to prolong the life of the game or offer up some fun/interesting challenges...by circumventing that they are entirely missing the point.

  • SpaceMidget75 Verified Senior Software Developer, Minerva Computer Services #38 2 years ago

    I'm all for the ratings system on EG but I think if you're gonna neg someone who clearly isn't trolling and IMHO is making a decent point it would be nice if you were man enough to give a reason....whoever you are.

    I don't even own a PS3 but the fact that the Madcatz pad is wireless on PS3 but not on the 360 and the fact that they have a range of force feedback wheels to choose from are my main points here.

    Care to explain why thats so wrong?

  • thefinn #39 2 years ago

    If all they're worried about is cheating on Live, why does the update also affect XBox Live Silver members?

  • miiiguel #40 2 years ago

    @ Space:
    //[link url=http://www.amazon.co.uk/Saitek-PX3200-Rumble-Pad- Xbox/dp/B001EYU1VE/ref=sr_1_27?ie=UTF8&s=videogames&qid=1259 066208&sr=1-27
    ]http://ww w.amazon.co.uk/Saitek-PX3200-Ru...[/link]
    [link url=http://www.amazon.co.uk/Mad-Catz-Street-Fighte r-FightPad/dp/B001M244HA/ref=sr_1_29?ie=UTF8&s=videogames&qi d=1259066208&sr=1-29
    ]http://ww w.amazon.co.uk/Mad-Catz-Street-...[/link]
    [link url=http://www.amazon.co.uk/Venom-Twin-Charging-Cr adle-White/dp/B0027VST58/ref=sr_1_35?ie=UTF8&s=videogames&qi d=1259066208&sr=1-35
    ]http://ww w.amazon.co.uk/Venom-Twin-Charg...[/link]

    Now! Check this out!!!:
    http://ww w.amazon.co.uk/Mad-Catz-Call-Du...

    If all they're worried about is cheating on Live, why does the update also affect XBox Live Silver members?
    huh? Do you think that makes sense. What you said? There are a few reasosn:
    - Xbox Live Silver, is still Xbox Live
    - You have times when you can play online even being silver, and on those times Live better behave because the purpose is to bring new users to the system.
    - Cheating is not only in online game playing.
    - Today you're Silver, tomorrow you can be Gold.
    - A system is independant of the profile. That means, Live is a private network, in order to login one must comply with the requirements if you don't want to connect to the private network Live, you may refuse the update.
    Edited by 1 at 24/11/09 @ 12:44

  • SpaceMidget75 Verified Senior Software Developer, Minerva Computer Services #41 2 years ago

    That's great mate except that none of those are wireless or licensed.

    The lack of both of these things on almost all third party stuff suggests that MS are making it very difficult and/or expensive for 3rd parties.

    Like I said, anything that can abuse Live, fair enough. But contollers et al? Come on.

    Nice one phantom negger. You're really contributing here. ;)

  • miiiguel #42 2 years ago

    I'm all for the ratings system on EG but I think if you're gonna neg someone who clearly isn't trolling and IMHO is making a decent point it would be nice if you were man enough to give a reason....whoever you are.

    ahaha! That's called anonymous trolling, in fact. Ignore it.

  • rodpad #43 2 years ago

    Not quite sure why people are downrating my comments which state technical facts about what the memory cards can and can't do. I'm not supporting datel/cheating nor condeming it.

    Of course the memory card is open to saved game and achievement fiddling. However, feel free to rate up people talking nonsense that a memory card can add something like aimbots through the locked down hypervisor on the 360. It doesn't "bypass CD checks" for piracy either.

  • glaeken #44 2 years ago

    This seems like a non case to me. I am sure Microsoft have something in their terms and conditions to say all third party peripherals have to go through certification and Datel have not done that which leaves them with no case at all.




  • Stormflood #45 2 years ago

    I bought a Datel memory unit because it was cheaper and had much larger capacity. Now it's useless because MS prefer people to buy their overpriced peripherals. Thanks MS.

  • glaeken #46 2 years ago

    Surely your problem is with Datel for knowingly selling a product they knew had not gone through the MS certification process. As far as I see it as they choose to not go through the certification process they knew that at any point MS could just decide to not support their devices and yet they continued to sell them.

    This really is not MS's fault as a hardware manufacturer is under no obligation to support third party products for their product. The certification process that Datel decided not to go through is actually MS stepping up and saying we will consider support of third party products but of course if the third party product maker decides not to bother MS can not force them.

    Edited by 3 at 24/11/09 @ 13:46

  • RumpyStumpy #47 2 years ago

    EarlBassett is a prick

  • kangarootoo #48 2 years ago

    @miiiguel

    Ah, interesting.


    @secombe

    "Perhaps I'm missing something, but why on earth would people want to 'cheat' the achievements system"

    One word (and its not even a real one).

    Gamerscore.

  • kangarootoo #49 2 years ago

    @EarlBassett

    "There is such a place.
    Eurogamer 4 years ago."

    So as you see it, there are only two places on the whole internet for you to find happiness and satisfaction, and one of them doesn't exist. Like the last dinosaur on earth, all alone and wondering where all its friends have gone.

    That is truly heartbreaking. You have our collective pity.

  • miiiguel #50 2 years ago

    "@secombe

    "Perhaps I'm missing something, but why on earth would people want to 'cheat' the achievements system"

    One word (and its not even a real one).

    Gamerscore."


    PSN doesnt' have Gamerscore and ppl also cheat the Trophies system. (yet again the link I posted earlier).

  • gjgjg #51 2 years ago

    @secombe
    some get as much enjoyment out of cheating as prolonging. admit it cheating sounds sexier.

  • weejok #52 2 years ago

    You know all the people saying it's to stop cheating are just fooling themselves. There are devices that let you connect official memory cards to PC's to allow cheating/gamesave tampering also! MS don't want anyone udercutting their own over priced memory cards, come on £30 for 512mb! I can get a 16gb memory card for that amount.

  • darkmorgado #53 2 years ago

    @rodpad,

    If you look at my original comment I began it with "If I remember correctly". I was in no way stating that my comment was definitely accurate or correct, I most certainly was not trying to pretend I have technical knowledge of these things. But I DO recall reading an article about how Datel products can be used to interfere with the functioning of games - I am guessing similar to how those gameshark things would interfere with gamecode to provide "cheats" on older consoles. I'll see if I can find the article again and link it.

    Please do not accuse me of deliberately attempting to spread false information, which is what your continued comments appear to suggest.

  • darkmorgado #54 2 years ago

    @weejok, PC gaming doesn't have a unified online service spanning every game on the system, and it doesn't have universal systems such as Achievements. PC is an open platform. Xbox isn't. Microsoft have control over their service (and quite rightly) and have every right to refuse to support UNCERTIFIED equipment that could potentially interfere with the terms of service and how that service is intended to be used.

  • weejok #55 2 years ago

    @darkmorgado I wasn't talking about PC gaming. On ebay you can buy devices that allow you to connect an official MS memory unit to your pc and use certain programs to transfer saves and such to the memory unit and then you transfer them back to your 360 console.

  • miiiguel #56 2 years ago

    "There are devices that let you connect official memory cards to PC's to allow cheating/gamesave tampering also!"

    They can't do nothing about those can they? I mean, what you saying is "why are we putting thiefs to jail, as we know there are still a few you can't catch". Then again I know a few sneaky kids who got really upset because their Datel Tranfesr kit is now useless to their shady practices. Are they making a profit along the way? Good for them, that's their job anyway.
    Or it would be better to say "sod it! Let Live be run by cheaters and Datel and friends!"

    edit: "On ebay you can buy devices that allow you to connect an official MS memory unit to your pc and use certain programs to transfer saves and such to the memory unit and then you transfer them back to your 360 console.".
    See?! Is not that easy anymore. And even those are being caught nowdays. "Certain programs" is way shadier than a device bought and advertised to do so on Amazon.co.uk.
    Edited by 3 at 24/11/09 @ 14:20

  • kangarootoo #57 2 years ago

    @miiiguel

    PSN still displays a cross-title count of your trophies, so the same "keeping ahead of the joneses" mentality drives some people to cheat.

  • kangarootoo #58 2 years ago

    "Or it would be better to say "sod it! Let Live be run by cheaters and Datel and friends!" "

    Well no, that would be an equally rubbish thing to say ;)

  • miiiguel #59 2 years ago

    "PSN still displays a cross-title count of your trophies, so the same "keeping ahead of the joneses" mentality drives some people to cheat. "

    Nah... I don't think that's what drives a few (yes, we over react about this, but in fact it's a few minority) to cheat. Heck, GS and Trophies hacked scores are so easy to see (it's laughable when you see an Achivevement/Trophy that says: win 30 races online without date on it, or 30 wins before 10 wins Achievement), I think ppl do it because they get kicks out of the act not the result. The result is often ridicule.

  • darkmorgado #60 2 years ago

    Taken from [link url=http://www.losttv-forum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=64215
    ]http://ww w.losttv-forum.com/forum/showth...[/link]

    "The real reason behind the ban is the fact that Datel's memory units allow for the use of an SD card to expand the available memory. This SD card can then be used to transfer files two a PC, which in turn can then be used to modify those files for the purpose of gamer score cheating, achievement cheating, modifying/hacking game files to create unfair gameplay, illegally obtaining downloadable content or games, and modifying system files.

    Interestingly enough, Datel admits to violating the Digitial Millennium Copyright Act, the EU Copyright Directive, and the WIPO Copyright Treaty with no valid, legal claim for doing so. More over, Datel claims that Microsoft harmed it because circumventing Microsoft's copyprotection and security schemes cost Datel a lot of money to achieve, rather than simply licensing it's products through Microsoft's Offical Xbox 360 Products program.

    I believe Microsoft's reasons for banning the Datel memory units was an act of good faith with the intent of protecting and preserving it's online community and online gaming environment. For several weeks I wandered through the Xbox Forums on Xbox.com reading angry accounts of how people were cheating. I even did some investigation on how cheating can be done, and there are several videos on YouTube that provide great tutorials on how exactly to do it. All of them involve a Datel product."
    Edited by 1 at 24/11/09 @ 14:29

  • weejok #61 2 years ago

    According to a lot of people on here the only people who bought Datel memory units are cheaters, Not people who just wanted a value for money product which does exactly the same as the overpriced MS version? I'd always prefer to buy official products but that doesn't mean we should be raped by Microsoft for our loyalty.
    Edited by 1 at 24/11/09 @ 14:30

  • rodpad #62 2 years ago

    That's fair enough Dark. I made the comment only once and then had to repeat as Miguell didn't seem to understand. Wasn't firing off at you :)

    Gamesharks worked by altering parts of a machine's memory on the fly. It is impossible to do so with a simple storage device. The last consoles that had a Gameshark/Action replay like device were the PS2 and Gamecube.

  • darkmorgado #63 2 years ago

    So basically, Datel admit to breaking several laws in order to get their product to break through security to allow hacking, and are now complaining because after spending a lot of money, MS have banned the product.

    Surely they have totally shot themselves in the foot by admitting in a lawsuit that they broke the law?

  • darkmorgado #64 2 years ago

    @rodpad no worries, I think I didn't word it very well anyway. It's the copied game files that are hacked, not the system firmware itself, as Datel have apparently admitted to spending a lot of money to make possible.

  • rodpad #65 2 years ago

    Aye. The only cheating I can think of would be something like hex editing your Fifa 10 savegame and raising all your player's stats to 100. That can definitely count towards cheating online.

  • HenryFitz #66 2 years ago

    I expect Microsoft to lose, simply because the code in the firmware update deliberately targets Datel products. If it had some other purpose, such as the improvement of the system, then MS might have been in the clear. They have the option of blocking save-game hacking by some other means, but not of deliberately targeting a competitor's product. Whatever the nefarious uses to which the Datel memory-cards are put, they are not in themselves a violation of the TOS, as they can be used for purposes perfectly within the TOS. There is also no such thing as a closed platform. MS may decline to support or license 3rd party peripherals, but I don't think they can ban them. Makers of cabinets cannot insist that only their licensed brand of screws can be used in their operational product, and nor, I think, can Microsoft artificially restrict the use of 3rd party peripherals.

  • miiiguel #67 2 years ago

    @HenryFitz : I don't uderstand how they can win, the problem here is with Xbox Live. If you don't want to use the private network Live, just refuse the update.
    And yes, there are closed platforms IBM Mainframes proves me that every now and then.
    And, yet again, Datel advetises their product as capable of hack Gamer Profiles and Game Saves. They brag about it.

  • darkmorgado #68 2 years ago

    @HenryFitz

    "I expect Microsoft to lose, simply because the code in the firmware update deliberately targets Datel products."

    Which would be fine if Datel were being above-board themselves, but they have admitted to breaking numerous laws and hacking xbox software in order to get the product on the market and allow people to break the EULA by hacking game files.

    @rodpad, presumably they could also raise their base hit points/armour in FPS games to near-invincible levels, which would also constitute cheating, or increasing the damage output of their weapons, or the speed of their cars in racing games, etc etc

  • HenryFitz #69 2 years ago

    miiiguel,

    Do the TOS of the private network Live state that you cannot use an unlicensed peripheral to save your games?

    There is also the historical element to the usage of these products. The fact that they functioned prior to this update and do not function afterwards indicates that they have been deliberately targeted. Microsoft sells a competing product. If Microsoft did anything whatsoever to impede the functionality of a competing product, then they will be bang-to-rights, in my opinion. The principles of free and fair competition will override whatever rights Microsoft has as owners of the private network.

  • miiiguel #70 2 years ago

    Do the TOS of the private network Live state that you cannot use an unlicensed peripheral to save your games?

    As a matter of fact it does:
    "The Service may only be accessed with an original Xbox, an Xbox 360 console, a personal computer, or other device authorized by us, or by logging into your account via Xbox.com . You agree that you are using only authorized software and hardware to access the Service, that your software and hardware have not been modified in any unauthorized way (e.g., through unauthorized repairs, unauthorized upgrades, or unauthorized downloads), and that we have the right to send data , applications or other content to any software or hardware that you are using to access the Service for the express purpose of detecting an unauthorized modification."
    http://ww w.xbox.com/en-US/legal/LiveTOU.htm

    And it has the date of September 2008, way before the last update which void Datel cheat devices. The fact that ppl could doesn't mean it was legal. I expect that it's still not legal to be robbed if I forget to lock my car.
    Edited by 3 at 24/11/09 @ 15:50

  • laudy #71 2 years ago

    "I expect that it's still not legal to be robbed if I forget to lock my car. "

    But your insurance company would leave you high and dry for for your carelessness.

    I'm afraid I'm with the folk that want value for money. Not everyone buys these things to cheat.

  • miiiguel #72 2 years ago

    Well, I don't think it's a matter of chosing sides. Thing is, want "freedom" don't chose a private network to play on. It's private, owners set the rules.
    One has the choice, choice to leave or do a network of his own. Datel could start one.

    But your insurance company would leave you high and dry for for your carelessness.
    That's not the point, the point is, is it legal to steal a car if it's unlocked? Let me guess, you're with the thiefs on this one ?
    /joking.
    Edited by 2 at 24/11/09 @ 15:58

  • laudy #73 2 years ago

    "is it legal to steal a car if it's unlocked?"

    in a word, no.

    Plenty of people will walk past the car, look in the window and notice it's unlocked, they think "what a fool!"

    One person will walk past and try to take it. Success will depend on the age of the car and whether it has an immobiliser etc. So everyone that walked past the car and had a look should be punished as well?

    As far as I can tell, from what people have been saying, the Datel model is cheaper and has more capacity. This is essentially why people buy it. Most people like a drink, not everyone is an alcoholic.

    Edited by 1 at 24/11/09 @ 16:05

  • oreillymj #74 2 years ago

    @miiguel
    Maybe on Xbox, things are different, but there are valid reasons for the 30 wins before 10 wins Achievement you mention on PS3.

    IW screwed up the 1.01 release day patch for MW2 and I only realised that none of the trophies for the game were unlocking until near the end. The "fix" was to delete the 1.01 patch. So I had a trophy for completing the game even though I had missed a few of the trophies for completing the missions.

    Even now that I've gone back and replayed the missions, the date beside each trophy would give the impression that I was up to something as they're not in the correct order.

    And MW2 wasn't the first game to have trophy unlocking problems. Burnout has had a few problems where trophies wouldn't unlock correctly requiring you to delete/restore your game save to get specific trophies.

  • HenryFitz #75 2 years ago

    miiiguel,

    Well, that is interesting. I think it is legally suspect, unless Microsoft do not have a monopoly on online interactions using an Xbox. If they have this monopoly, then the EU competition courts will probably take the view that they are abusing it.

    (edited for incivility)
    Edited by 1 at 24/11/09 @ 16:08

  • darkmorgado #76 2 years ago

    Well Logitech and Madcatz have licenses to create 3rd party devices, so MS don't have a monopoly.

    The fact remains, that whether or not some users are using the device in a "valid" way, Datel deliberately designed the device so that it could be used to hack saves, and they have admitted on spending a lot of money, time and breaking several laws in order to do this. For that reason alone, the product shouldn't just be banned from being compatible, i'm fairly certain that it could be illegal. That a few people may be using the device simply to transfer saves is irrelevant, as it was designed deliberately to do more than that.

  • thefinn #77 2 years ago

    "huh? Do you think that makes sense. What you said? There are a few reasosn:
    - Xbox Live Silver, is still Xbox Live
    - You have times when you can play online even being silver, and on those times Live better behave because the purpose is to bring new users to the system.
    - Cheating is not only in online game playing.
    - Today you're Silver, tomorrow you can be Gold.
    - A system is independant of the profile. That means, Live is a private network, in order to login one must comply with the requirements if you don't want to connect to the private network Live, you may refuse the update."

    Most of those reasons don't make sense to me. The exceptions are "You have times when you can play online even being silver" (I don't know if that's actually true, but I can't say with confidence that it isn't) and "A system is independant of the profile", which does answer the question adequately. But I must say, as for the rest, what? Why is it any of Microsoft's business if people cheat in their offline games? Does anyone take Gamerscores seriously enough that it's a problem if people pump their scores artificially?

    As for "using an unlicensed peripheral violates the XBox Live TOS": Leaving aside whether such a restriction is enforceable, the TOS does not constrain Datel, because Datel is not the person using the device, nor is it the person who agreed to the TOS. Indeed, if I were Datel, I'd consider this provision of the TOS to be part of the Microsoft policy they're contesting.

  • darkmorgado #78 2 years ago

    How many times???? Datel never once applied for certification with Xbox. They have admitted that they broke SEVERAL laws when creating this product and getting it to work, so I don't see how they have a valid case for complaining that a device which breaks the law has been rendered incompatible. The ban was a move against the device, not against the customer, and actually came after floods of complaints from users about people cheating over xbox live.

  • Lamb #79 2 years ago

    I haven't updated my 360 yet! I guess I'm going to go out and buy one of those datel cards and make my gamer score uber leet.
    NOT! :p :D

  • kangarootoo #80 2 years ago

    @miiiguel

    "Heck, GS and Trophies hacked scores are so easy to see (it's laughable when you see an Achivevement/Trophy that says: win 30 races online without date on it, or 30 wins before 10 wins Achievement), I think ppl do it because they get kicks out of the act not the result. The result is often ridicule."

    I think you are overstating the case a little there. I'm not saying that cheating isn't detectable, but for most of us our "investigations" go no further than looking at a gamerscore of 30k (or whatever is deemed to be high these days - my own is about 1500 or so) and thinking "Wow, that is high".

    The kudos of having a high gamerscore (or trophy count) is not directly connected to the chance of being found out for cheating. I was describing the motivation - I wasn't commenting on whether the actions taken as a result of the motivation would be fruitful or not.


    I agree with you on the rest of it mind. Now I understand what is going on (thanks to all who posted good details about licensing agreements and so on), its clear Datel are buggered.

  • kangarootoo #81 2 years ago

    @semitope

    What has it got to do with anything whether anyone here cares or not? We are just discussing the article, as you might expect in any article attached discussion thread.

    Making fun of those participating in a discussion just shows you are feeling left out because the level of debate has gone over your head. Go back to counting on your fingers and toes buddy (hint: remove your socks first).

  • miiiguel #82 2 years ago

    @ thefinn: on Silver online play, [link url=http://w ww.eurogamer.net/search.php?q=xtival
    ]http://ww w.eurogamer.net/search.php?q=xt...[/link]

    Why is it any of Microsoft's business if people cheat in their offline games?
    That doesn't seem to be the problem, no need to log on to the private network and comply by its rules, imo.

    Does anyone take Gamerscores seriously enough that it's a problem if people pump their scores artificially?
    That's another issue, so if it's not to be "taken seriously" (a weird concept as we're talking about video-games, nothing is serious), yet again, don't use the private network Live.

    Anyway, I really can't understand, if ppl don't like the rules, think the GS is shit, and whatever..., why use a private network, either it be Live, or PSN ? It doesn't make sense. To me.

    It has rules. It has Achievements/Trophies. It has Gamerscore and Levels. Don't like it? Don't use it. Isn't that simple?
    Edited by 2 at 24/11/09 @ 17:10

  • HenryFitz #83 2 years ago

    darkmorgado,

    It is not illegal to use the Datel device with an Xbox 360. Use of this device does not necessarily violate Microsoft's IP rights as creators of the Xbox 360 system. Datel may have broken IP laws in creating and designing the device, for which reason Microsoft may decide to file a countersuit. However, that issue is separate to Microsoft's effective banning of Datel's products for use with the Live service.

    The Datel device is not illegal in itself and cannot be banned on that account. It would be perfectly reasonable for Microsoft to ban all users with Datel mem-cards who used hacked savegames, but banning the device, a priori, is not kosher. If the Datel device had no other purpose than the hacking of savegames, Microsoft would not have a case to answer. However, it is arguable that they are hobbling the competition unfairly, and that is why they will have to go to court, and I expect them to lose. Well, actually, I expect the consumer to lose. Microsoft will continue to ban Datel cards, resulting in more money spent on their own overpriced offering. The EU will thenmake MS compensate Datel some large amount, less than the amount MS made as a result of this banning. MS will therefore win. Datel will win. The lawyers will win. The consumer will lose. Some people will be very happy that others are not hacking their gamertags. The end.

  • Earlyflash #84 2 years ago

    @miiguel
    ""USB Hard Drive Transfer kit to a PC."
    Those don't work anymore either. "

    I believe that this is incorrect. If I plug the USB Transfer kit into my PC, the ohter end connects to the Hard drive directly. No xbox involved at all.

    How exactly does the xbox update stop me doing that?

  • miiiguel #85 2 years ago

    @HenryFitz : we agree on that, as long as Datel cheat devices stay of the sytem I can live with MS fines, it's not my money.

  • miiiguel #86 2 years ago

    I believe that this is incorrect. If I plug the USB Transfer kit into my PC, the ohter end connects to the Hard drive directly. No xbox involved at all.

    How exactly does the xbox update stop me doing that?

    ehehe, you try to do that, then tell me what happened to your data*...

    (when you connect your profile to Live again).
    Edited by 1 at 24/11/09 @ 17:23

  • miiiguel #87 2 years ago

    The kudos of having a high gamerscore (or trophy count) is not directly connected to the chance of being found out for cheating. I was describing the motivation - I wasn't commenting on whether the actions taken as a result of the motivation would be fruitful or not.

    Maybe I didn't express myself correctly, most of the GS/Trophie cheaters don't really care for the systems, they just do it "because", the thrill of doing something illicit, like the "script kids" over the internet world... .

  • miiiguel #88 2 years ago

    @semitope : you don't have a 360 and don't use Live, how come your judging ppl of being sad in this context? You do know who's looking sad, don't you?

    And why don't you drop that stuff of always peeking on Xbox/Live thread to make unpolite comments towards its users? What's the point?

    Realy, tell me, what can possibly be the point? Did someone who uses - and I dare to say, enjoys - using a 360 and Live harmed you? I have no problem with your problems with MS, but this is rather pathetic, tbh.
    No offense. Mate.

    counts don't need to matter to gamers at all and if it doesnt matter to gamers
    I'm fairly sure you're not deciding that for me, nor for anyone for that matter. And btw, you can use Datel on your PSN, and you can hack away happily ever after, you'll have no judging from me. Just type PS3 Trophies hacks on google and have fun with your Datel, but do it fast, PS3blog is starting to talk about changes.

    I'm having a fancy diner now, 'cos I deserve.
    Edited by 6 at 24/11/09 @ 19:46

  • BartonFink #89 2 years ago

    I thought it was only unlicensed third party peripherals that were effectively banned with the update.
    From the sounds of it there is no case to answer specially if the devices break the TOS. Their network their machine and the TOS clearly states that you violate the TOS by using unlicensed software and hardware. No case to answer really.

    Datel have also probably broken a few laws in the process of making the units so I wouldn't be surprised if MS counter sue and bury them.
    Edited by 1 at 24/11/09 @ 20:22

  • YourMessageHere #90 2 years ago

    If MS can identify and render non-functional specific brands of memory card, why not, instead of simply bricking their memory cards, flag those who use Datel cards for greater vigilance from the Live anti-cheating Smersh, and smack them with the banhammer if and when they are actually caught cheating? Just because a thing can be used to cheat, does that mean it will? Of course not. I'm far more inclined to think this is about competition than cheating.

    @ miiiguel

    But does a memory card "access the Service"? The console accesses Live, surely, not the memory card, wouldn't you say? Much as my PC accesses the internet, not my USB hard disc. Can't you access Live without a memory card? Legally arguable, I'd say.

  • canIdoyabombsforya #91 2 years ago

    @the moaners
    Next time Microsoft offer you an $800 console for $300 you'll know not to get suckered in, wont you.
    You knew the PS3 was around the corner(/Kaz mode, with faster higher res graphics and it's dual screen technology) you should have waited and then you could have enjoyed your cheap 3rd party devices.

  • smelly #92 2 years ago

    I remember having 3rd party memory cards for both playstation (original) and cube..

    Both of those cards stopped working after i played the latest game and got a "hidden" firmware update

    In the manual it said "only use approved memory cards" so thats how they got away with it.


    It DOES screw up xbox live if you can edit your save files on a pc and give yourself a high score which triggers achievements and stuff.. so i can see why they dont like it

  • canuter #93 2 years ago

    Microsoft says: "Only use certified products, others may not work". Well of course they don't if you actively scan the accessory and ban it on purpose.

    Plus I hacked my Xbox 1 using the official Memory Card + Mechassault exploit.

  • Earlyflash #94 2 years ago

    @miiguel

    "ehehe, you try to do that, then tell me what happened to your data*...

    (when you connect your profile to Live again). "

    Er, it was fine. Next question?

  • funkateer #95 2 years ago

    As far as I can see, cheating is a selling point of these Datel products, so as far as I'm concerned MS did the right thing.

  • miiiguel #96 2 years ago

    "Ppl here are saying the same thing can be done with official devices and a transfer kit"

    No it can't. It corrupts the profile, and the gamesaves. And don't play the naive, your posting history is public, you know,

  • miiiguel #97 2 years ago

    @miiguel

    "ehehe, you try to do that, then tell me what happened to your data*...

    (when you connect your profile to Live again). "

    Er, it was fine. Next question?


    You're onto something very new, I must admit that. I'll investigate.

  • kangarootoo #98 2 years ago

    "As far as I can see, cheating is a selling point of these Datel products, so as far as I'm concerned MS did the right thing."

    Seems to me there are several selling points. Not paying through the nose for a handful of mb is one, regardless of what cheating opportunities also exist.

  • funkateer #99 2 years ago

    So are we discussing banning Datel products, or MS' pricing? 2 different issues...

    I agree MS is charging too much for their own mem cards, but that's irrelevant to the discussion and it doesn't take anything away from the fact that MS understandably banned these Datel cards.
    Do you think that if Datel wins that MS lowers their prices? I don't think so.

  • Earlyflash #100 2 years ago

    In case anyone still cares. I have connected my Hard Drive from my xbox using the official transfer kit to my PC. Run a piece of software (I won't say which one), and I have full unfettered access to the content on my hard drive.

    I can't change anything without additional software, as each item is signed with your consoleid and live profile id keys (If I remember correctly). However, there are several software solutions which allow for these to be changed.

    to test, I just copied the CoD5 save from the hd to my PC. reconnected the HD to the xbox, Deleted it from the HD using the xbox dash. Reloaded it from my PC to the HD and fired up CoD5. It was fine.

    I could do the same with my Profile, but I think that the point is made.

  • Sunyavadin #101 2 years ago

    So I'm fine if I want to back up saves to my PC in case the HD on my 360 dies? There's nothing left lying around like a file modified date on the HD which the update can find if I restore a backup to fix a corrupted one?

    It's a pain in the arse on games which don't support multiple save slots, when a crash while saving forces you to restart the entire game...
    Edited by 1 at 25/11/09 @ 16:39

  • miiiguel #102 2 years ago

    I've been informed it corrupts your gamer profile, but if Early, somehow, did it - after the upgrade - he must knows something. Either way, I'm not trying. Recovering the profile via legit ways works pretty well right now (admitedly it was a pain in the back, beforehand).

  • Sunyavadin #103 2 years ago

    I imagine there's a timestamp on the file for when it was last saved. However that shouldn't affect determining if the file is "legit" for purposes of bans, because last time I went on holiday, all my saves from when I was in a place with no internet access are dated as last modified in 2006. As a result, if the file is completely unmodded, and is simply copied to the PC HD and pasted back to the 360 HD in an unmodified form, there should be no identifable markers that the save was not placed there by the 360 itself... I wonder if there's anything in the FAT which leaves a trace that it was accessed by a machine other than the 360?

  • miiiguel #104 2 years ago

    @Sunyavadin : Files metadata can record last time, and where they were opened, even if the users only sees modification date. It's pretty common standard in any IDS (intrusion detection system), and I've been told that's what's in place now after the last update, hence I'm very curious with what Early stated.
    As far as I know it corrupts data, but does not bans you, it just forces to recover from Live system an unmoded Gamertag. Same for gamesaves, minus the recovering thing, just corrupts.
    Edited by 2 at 25/11/09 @ 20:18

  • Sunyavadin #105 2 years ago

    A youtube vid from Early would help. I am seriously paranoid about the games which don't allow copying of the saves between devices, preventing me from keeping a backup on a memory card. I really want to be able to keep backups on my PC without any problems...

    I'm amazed MS haven't implemented a way of doing this yet. Maybe something allowing you to transfer saves over Live via GFWL to your PC...
    Edited by 1 at 26/11/09 @ 12:17

  • wootty2000 #106 2 years ago

    miiguel [Do the TOS of the private network Live state that you cannot use an unlicensed peripheral to save your games?

    As a matter of fact it does:
    "The Service may only be accessed with an original Xbox, an Xbox 360 console, a personal computer, or other device authorized by us, or by logging into your account via Xbox.com . You agree that you are using only authorized software and hardware to access the Service, that your software and hardware have not been modified in any unauthorized way (e.g., through unauthorized repairs, unauthorized upgrades, or unauthorized downloads), and that we have the right to send data , applications or other content to any software or hardware that you are using to access the Service for the express purpose of detecting an unauthorized modification."
    ]http://ww w.xbox.com/en-US/legal/LiveTOU....

    The Service may only be accessed with an original Xbox, an Xbox 360 console, a personal computer, or other device authorized by us, or by logging into your account via Xbox.com.
    The memory card does not access the Live service, the console does.

    You agree that you are using only authorized software and hardware to access the Service, that your software and hardware have not been modified in any unauthorized way (e.g., through unauthorized repairs, unauthorized upgrades, or unauthorized downloads),
    Again, the memory card is is not accessing the Live service. Futher more, the software or hardware has not been modified.

    Lets say somehow someone gets round the wording.

    Now lets look at this example. I have an xbox with a 20gb hard drive and a Datel memory card. I keep my profile on the hard drive. I decide to go to a friend's house to play some games. I fire up the xbox, get logged in automatically and get prompted to do the update. At this point, the only thing the Datel card has done is present it self to the xbox. This has not gone against the above T&Cs. Now I can not access my Datel card. The intent would have been to go to my friends house, move profile from card to hard drive, play games, move profile back, go home, move profile back to hard drive. So where does that gone against the above T&Cs.

    Ok, so another example. I have xbox, datel card and no internet connection. I dont use Live. I store everything on the Datel memoey card (as I have no hard drive). To help people that do not have their xbox connected to the internet, Microsoft allow you to download the updates from their website (see http://ww w.xbox.com/en-US/support/system... and no where do you have to agree to the Live T&Cs to download them. I go to work, download the update and put it on a USB memory card. Get home, apply the update and now I have no access to my data. Have I broken the Live T&Cs? I have not conencted to the Live service/network. I also suspect that games can also carry system updates. If you buy a new game and have not updated, I *think* you can receive the update that way. Again, no connection to the Live service/network.

    One thing that did worry me was (as far as I know) no offical warning about unlicensed Memory Units not working after the update. That is the same as me taking my 18 month (still under warranty) car to a supermarket, filling up with fuel (like I have always done because it's cheaper than the branded fuel) and the car not starting/running because the fuel is "Not approved" by the car manufacturer

    As others have said, you can buy after marking products that allow you to connect the memory card to the computer so this clearly is not because Datel products allow you to cheat/hack your profile and the Microsoft ones dont.
    I do hope that Datel win the case. I do not support the "hacking"/modding of gamer accounts / profiles, but I believe that Microsoft see them selves as the Big Boys and can do as they see fit.

    Edit: Games do indeed contain system updates. See [link url=http://support.xbox.com/s upport/en/us/nxe/kb.aspx?id=933498&lcid=1033&category=hardwa re
    ]http://su pport.xbox.com/support/en/us/nx...[/link]

    Just me 2 cents worth...
    (Edits: Must learn to use a spell checker)
    Edited by 6 at 28/11/09 @ 23:53

  • costa_k #107 2 years ago

    I hope DATEL wins,but sad fact is they and their user base are too small to battle MS.

  • Doomlord2 #108 2 years ago

    I think you're all being immature about this, well I suppose I'm about to get flamed but...

    I'm a modder, but I suppose, I'm also quite moral as well.
    I mean I don't play on Live to mess things up.

    Also, it's just as easy to mod with an OFFICIAL HARD DRIVE TRANSFER KIT (that's what I use) mainly because it's free. So Microsoft don't have a case on this. Before you get angry with me, I don't go on Live to mess people up, I mess around in Co-Op with friends (like Nazi Zombies). I don't see what the big deal is.

    I don't cheat for gamerscore, but I know people that do... tbh I think it's kinda stupid.
    This goes in Datel's way. Developers patch mods (i say mods, because i'm not screwing anyone over, but with hacking I am, right?), usually on release, then they get found out, and patched within a week.

    It's also funny how people go insane when I go on Live as I have buttons and colors in my gamertag.

    Want to know how easy it is to mod with an official transfer kit? It's the same as a Memory Unit. Plug your cable in, run XPort/Xplorer, and then you have access to your system.

    Also you can not "Illegally get free DLC" because the DLC is tied to a gamer profile, no matter how much modding you do, you're never going to get access to the private keys, and any developer that doesnt encrypt DLC is pretty stupid.