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BioWare defends story structure News
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Robert Purchese
BioWare staff writer Patrick Weekes has defended the way the developer structures stories in its games, picking apart a tongue-in-cheek, fan-made "RPG Cliché Chart".
"So I'm supposed to believe someone is smart enough to do a big Excel spreadsheet with colour coding and stuff but not smart enough to know about Campbellian archetypes," Weekes wrote on the Mass Effect forums. (Joseph Campbell wrote The Hero with a Thousand Faces - coincidentally a book David Cage talks about in our freshly-published interview)
"Yeah, guys, every BioWare game has the same plot! See, things are kind of normal, and then things change and you have to go out and do stuff, and you go to crazy weird places! Aaaaaand so yeah, totally the same story."
Weekes said the "intro, four planets, finale" structure familiar to BioWare games is picked for a number of good reasons.
Firstly, it's "easy" in the sense of QA, as areas can be culled if they're not ready in time for launch with minimal impact on the final product.
Secondly, "players understand it". Weekes explained that four is a golden number of objectives for an area that may confuse, overwhelm and frustrate once exceeded.
Thirdly, "There's nothing wrong with it."
"It's a structure, like any other," he wrote. "Humorously snarking that our games have a beginning part that is streamlined and introduces you to the game, a middle that allows you the freedom to go to several places and have adventures, and then a tightly focused ending is like riffing on how romance novels generally start out with two people being attracted to each other but having emotional issues, then gradually building trust, then having a complication that splits them up, and then in the end they get together and are happy.
"People who create fiction in any form use a structure appropriate to that form. They do it because their audience understands and responds on an emotional level to that structure," he concluded.
Website Hellforge compared the plots of the Baldur's Gate series, Neverwinter Nights, Knights of the Old Republic, Jade Empire, Mass Effect and Dragon Age. Be warned, spoilers are rife.
Dragon Age: Origins was released last Friday on PC, Xbox 360 and PS3. We picked apart the PC version and console version separately.
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Comments: 1-46 of 46 in total
Poster
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+4
"So I'm supposed to believe someone is smart enough to do a big Excel spreadsheet with colour coding and stuff but not smart enough to know about Campbellian archetypes," Weekes wrote on the Mass Effect forums. (Joseph Campbell wrote The Hero with a Thousand Faces - coincidentally a book David Cage talks about in our freshly-published interview)
^ ^ ^ ^ Great minds think alike... or not. Either way, I never bothered to actually notice such similarities, most likely because I was too busy enjoying said games, especially Mass Effect and KOTOR.
Edited 1 times,
most recently on 09/11/09 @ 14:51
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Diogo_Ribeiro
09/11/09 @ 15:04
+9
"People who create fiction in any form use a structure appropriate to that form"
Then why are we still treated to leftovers of other mediums when the structure aproppriate to the videogame form is entirely different? Not that "traditonal" narrative or structures doesn't have a place in videogames, but if you're extoling the virtues of specific fiction as being approriate to the form they're built on, these games and so many others are still embarassing examples of understanding the structuralism videogames can provide.
Edited 1 times,
most recently on 09/11/09 @ 15:08
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0
This is like bitching about Uncharted and Tomb Raider being treasure hunters all the same in all episodes ( spesially TR ofc ), complaining about Die Hard being based on the same recipe on all episodes, most movies of each genre having similar base plots and Halo dissabling Halos...
Then again when you have them changing things ( look @ Halo ODST / Wars ) they end up accusing them of milking out things. Some people need to get a life. If you dont like or cant accept something dont buy it. They end up spending more time bitching and crying about things than they would of spent playing and paying for in the first place. |
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Collymilad
09/11/09 @ 15:17
-6
What a turd.
It works. Let the pros get on with it and stfu, eh? Their games are awesome, and people who sit and pick stuff apart like this are pathetic. You could apply this type of logic to so many things that people enjoy. Bottom line is, it doesn't matter. And sorry, but BioWare have the right to be smug - they are an amazing developer and there are plenty of people who are far more smug, have done less - yet no-one seems to have a problem with it.
Edited 2 times,
most recently on 09/11/09 @ 15:20
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Diogo_Ribeiro
09/11/09 @ 15:21
+8
And so, because Bioware are "awesome", they are above analysis or criticism? Well, I guess it's back to masturbating while looking at Metacritic, I guess.
Edited 1 times,
most recently on 09/11/09 @ 15:22
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Collymilad
09/11/09 @ 15:24
-3
"And so, because Bioware are "awesome", they are above analysis or criticism? Well, I guess it's back to masturbating while looking at Metacritic, I guess."
When did I say that? Their games do have problems, I just don't see their story structure as being one of them. |
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+3
I've just started playing Mass Effect for the first time (took advantage of the cheap offer on Steam over the weekend(, and I have to say I'm loving it so far.
The author has a point about the plot structures, and why they seem to keep on being reused... they just work. As I keep telling a writer friend of mine when they worry about not being incredibly original; it's not the story (or structure) that matters, it's the way you tell that story that's going to make it work or not. Ever ask yourself why a cliché is a cliché?
Edited 1 times,
most recently on 09/11/09 @ 15:25
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EarlBassett
09/11/09 @ 15:25
+8
So, he compares his games to Mills & Boon novels. Did I get that right?
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kangarootoo
09/11/09 @ 15:28
0
Seems a fair point. People just like having something to complain about, but if their method works and their games are fun, that is probably all the proof you need.
That said, this The Hero with a Thousand Faces book is starting to sound like the text that game devs get when they want to learn how to "do stories". Maybe that is a good thing... |
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Diogo_Ribeiro
09/11/09 @ 15:33
+8
@Collymilad:
Granted, but I think it's important to realize that an absence of criticism is far more damaging than its existence. That a problem with their story structure is not apparent to someone does not mean it doesn't exist or that it does not merit discussion. I'm not really vested in discussing them in particular, but if someone wants to do that I say let them. Even if they go nowhere, discussion and opinions on the matter certainly will. |
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AphoticCosmos
09/11/09 @ 15:43
-1
I know it's the same structure, but it really does work. Mass Effect and KotOR are some of my favourite games.
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cobaltfram
09/11/09 @ 15:44
+10
I'm sorry, but as my Creative Writing textbook said: "When you can see the structure, then it's called formula."
I think Bioware are getting trapped by what worked a decade ago. While yes, it's interesting to explore areas in any order, it keeps the game from feeling coherent by the end, because the story has to stand alone no matter what order you take quests in. Dragon Age does try to shake things up a bit by having your characters talk about your actions, etc, but I've yet to be really impressed by it. Bioware is not evolving, and that is a bad thing. |
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+7
""Humorously snarking that our games have a beginning part that is streamlined and introduces you to the game, a middle that allows you the freedom to go to several places and have adventures, and then a tightly focused ending is like riffing on how romance novels generally start out with two people being attracted to each other but having emotional issues, then gradually building trust, then having a complication that splits them up, and then in the end they get together and are happy."
YES. let's just stick to the pre-existing formulas in every genre! more fun for us, less hassle for developers. because it's not like the romantic comedy genre needs to develop, so much can be done within those confines!!! |
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Bigglesworth
09/11/09 @ 18:08
+4
Sadly, people fail to appreciate the difference between a trope and a cliche.
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-1
Warning: Mass Effect 1 spoilers in post
@doragor: In this case, the humble origins are relative. You start out as a war hero of the most inferior race in space and end up being the super spectre who decides who gets to sit on the council. You don't exactly need to be a young man/woman from a small village to start more humble than you end up. That being said, I don't agree with comments about Bioware not evolving. There are only so many different ways to save a country/planet/plane/universe while having a simple enough storyline so every newcomer understands it (they need more customers to pay for the mounting costs of modern games), but also have the character development and mechanics so that your loyal customers are still satisfied. Bioware has been doing a fine job improving this with their dialog systems, combat etc. I wouldn't call that "not evolving" |
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-4
ha ha of all the developers in the world., bioware surely should escape crticsm. it feels like every other game has the excuse, its an ok story for a game yet dragon age/mass effect etc feel like they could stand on their own. sure theres a stucture but it works and id rather that than all the bullshit stories that exist in other games...im lookin at you halo, gow etc
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HugeXbox360Fan
09/11/09 @ 19:05
-2
It's funny in an "omg that's so true" kind of way, but that doesn't mean it's really a valid or substantial criticism of BioWare games. You could make a chart like this for every genre in every medium.
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0
How many times can the same basic plot points can be used before people get sick of it, or will they ever get sick of it?
I'm not saying Bioware's use of the same formula is bad in itself, I'm just wondering if there'll ever be consumer pressure due to lower sales or perhaps artistic need/integrity, to try something a bit spicy and off-the-beaten-track. |
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metalangel
09/11/09 @ 19:38
-2
I suppose his argument was wasted, based on most people I've met on game forums and on Live, they probably weren't in English class for the lesson on the heroic cycle and were instead sitting under the bleachers by the playing field, eating packets of mustard.
Besides, Dragon Age seems a bit different (SPOILERS) I've only done the Mage origin so far, but you've been in the Magi place since childhood so whether your parents were poor or rich is of no relevance. Indeed, the origin story takes in the most pivotal moment of your sheltered life up to that point (the Harrowing test) and then you are free to make your own decisions in the events leading up to joining the Grey Wardens. PC Gamer gave away the Dwarven Noble origin too (they did warn, before anyone complains) where again, you have some time in your normal life without anything being amiss before suddenly it all goes very Pete Tong. Certainly preferable to being a complete badass from the very start, a la the Master Chief that the aforementioned halfwits so mindlessly worship?
Edited 2 times,
most recently on 09/11/09 @ 20:35
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0
"Firstly, it's "easy" in the sense of QA, as areas can be culled if they're not ready in time for launch with minimal impact on the final product."
Not to mention that they're also very easy to "slot back in" once finished as a premium DLC. Now Bioware thusfar seem to be continuing with the old way of building a great game and then building on that further with expansions rather than what now seems to be the industry norm of pruning content late in the development cycle in order to fleece consumers for more of their hard earned. |
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+7
(can't believe nobody's referenced the Electro-Plasmic Genre-Fiction Generator yet)
Here But it is refreshing to see a game being analysed for its storytelling rather than its pixofractals per petaflop or what-have-you (not that I'm dissing Digital Foundry, which is a big can of awesome in my book). I reckon there's definitely some truth in the accusation that Bioware are a little relying too much on a kind of "Opening, Choose Your Own Middle Acts, Finale" type model. That said, it doesn't seem to be hurting their storytelling none. If anything I'd say the "Only You Can Save Mankind" trope limits their evolution more than the structures they use, though (from the little I've seen so far) Dragon Age does a nice job of playing to this and making it more personal. Can't wait to see how they approach Mass Effect 2... |
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dangerpuss
09/11/09 @ 22:07
0
You can deconstruct most narrative media into their constituent elements. But why would you want to do that? There are only a limited number of basic narrative structures that are consistently used in both movies and books, so why are games supposed to be different in that respect? There are very few stories that haven't been told before in some form, in some place.
At least Bioware tell stories that can be analysed. How many developers can claim that? Blizzard? Infinity Ward?
Edited 1 times,
most recently on 09/11/09 @ 22:10
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+8
For anyone defending Bioware, think of it like this ...
Pixar make somewhat formulaic children's movies, in terms of themes and tropes, but it's how they HANDLE them that makes the difference. Primarily, they aren't afraid to deal with dark themes, to touch upon true sadness in the middle of an otherwise brilliant display of humour and imagination. Bioware don't do this. Subversion is the key to real art and, more importantly, entertainment. Just look at how much people love Bioshock's twist, for that very reason. Or Shadow of the Colossus. Not all subversion needs to be sad or violent, of course, but the ONLY use for a formula is as a vehicle for subversion. Hence why the last three Harry Potter books were utter shit. She gave in to formula. (What a waste, by the way). EDIT: Braid being the finest ever example of this in gaming terms, in my opinion. Would the gameplay have been any less brilliant if the ending had been cliched? Of course not - it was already a great, somewhat subersive game because of the mood and platform-dissective (!) gameplay. But the ending make it a masterpiece.
Edited 1 times,
most recently on 09/11/09 @ 22:45
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i_saw_dasein
09/11/09 @ 23:15
+5
"There are only so many different ways to save a country/planet/plane/universe while having a simple enough storyline so every newcomer understands it"
What if... (wait for it) ...someone made an RPG where you didn't have to save the country/planet/plane/universe??! Dude saves universe while learning about himself and his friends is about as tired a trope as they come. I mean if video games are going to continue going exclusively to the genre-fiction well, they may as well choose more interesting themes and plot points. It sucks that developers seem so married to some adolescent messiah complex that every single game has to have the whole galaxy revolve around your character or it's just not "epic" enough. |
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Alterego-X
09/11/09 @ 23:45
-2
There is a difference between archetypes and clichés.
A cliché would be a tiresome, annoying plot point, that makes you smash your head into the wall, like these lines: "He is standing behind me, right?" "If you kill him you will be like him!" "Tell her that I.... arggh.." Having a structure is NOT a cliché. Every great story needs a structure. Just try to compare these well known great stories like The Gospels, The Matrix, Star Wars, or Harry Potter: -Prophecies about birth (Messiah, The One, Chosen One, Chosen One) -Mundane origin world (Nazaret, Matrix, Tatooine, Muggles) -Call to adventure (Childhood missing, phone call, holorecord, owl-mail) -Meeting the Mentor (John the Baptist, Morpheus, Obi-wan, Dumbledore) -Crossing the line (baptism, entering the mirror, flying to space, brick wall) -Death and resurrection (literal, literal, losing an arm, literal) etc. etc. Now, do you seriously suggest that these are clichés?
Edited 3 times,
most recently on 09/11/09 @ 23:51
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0
The reason the "intro, four planets, finale" structure doesn't work well for me is that it doesn't make for a very complete story. You usually get 4 separate stories that have little to do with each other bookended by the intro and finale which try to tie the 4 stories together (with varying degrees of success). When you get right down to it, the overall story usually ends up feeling generic as a result. Go find the 4 starcharts to save the world! Go make alliances with these 4 factions to save the world! Go find the 4 Waterdhaevian (sp?) creatures to save Neverwinter! It gets old after a while.
(Neverwinter Nights was far and away Bioware's worst story. They've improved with every story they've written since then, but still haven't come close to matching Baldur's Gate II.) |
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+1
Looks like they hurt his ego... But I think Bioware fans needn't worry about the studio doing something else than epic fantasy anytime soon ;)
I've only played BG 1 and NWN from their games - I've been told they are the worst of the bunch, so I'm probably biased - and the most annoying cliches were in the details, not in the story structure. I was especially un-fond of the conversation system. Most of the time you either had 3 responses - one ends the chat, second annoys the person, third one is the right one - or got a list of topics to datamine. And many quests, expecially in NWN, had a forced choice that allowed you to be "evul!". @Spekingur Here's an interesting tidbit about WOW: The death knight starting questline was about being part of the "evil guys" (complete with slaughtering innocents, etc.) without the usual tongue-in-cheek tone, and it was the most compelling I've seen in an RPG so far. I wouldn't want to play a whole game like that, but it was a piece of story well done :) |
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0
"So I'm supposed to believe someone is smart enough to do a big Excel spreadsheet with colour coding and stuff but not smart enough to know about Campbellian archetypes,"
Not as surprising as the idea that someone is a writer for one of the the most lauded games companies in the world... and doesn't know what a joke is. There's nothing wrong with the Campbellian archetype, cliches or Biowares story structures, though a little variety wouldn't go amiss. One of these days it would be nice if the world wasn't in danger. |
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hiddenranbir
11/11/09 @ 00:07
+1
Post full story EuroG.
Quote: Posted 11/10/09 22:27 (GMT) by Patrick Weekes Looking back on my original post, it's clear that it came off angrier than I had intended. I'd like to apologize to the folks at Hellforge for taking their joke too seriously and to the people here who were offended by my comments. It's very easy for me to get so embedded in the process of making games that I lose the ability to make fun of them, and getting defensive and snippy was unnecessary on my part. |
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ExplodingClown
19/11/09 @ 00:55
-1
Joseph Campbell should be shunned simply for the fact that that assclown George Lucas thinks he's the best thing since sliced bread.
i_saw_dasein: I love you. 'Adolescent messiah complex' nails it. |
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zelda-spirit-tracks
18/01/10 @ 20:34
0
You spend a lot of time watching talking heads in this game, and their smudged, pale and suddenly ugly features just draw attention to their robotic animation, rough ledtek.fi and stiff fantasy-speak. It works. Let the pros get on with it and stfu, eh?
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