Blizz: Cataclysm dungeons not too hard

Get some skills, basically.

Think World of Warcraft: Cataclysm's Heroic dungeons are too hard? You're not the only one. But Blizzard isn't changing them.

"We don't want you to stumble your way to victory. We don't want you to be able to overwhelm bosses without noticing or caring what they're doing. We don't want healers to be able to make up for all of the mistakes on the part of the other players," explained Greg "Ghostcrawler" Street, lead systems designer, on the Battle.net website.

"While, at the end of the day, dungeons may just be gussied up loot vending machines, we want you to do more than push a button to get the loot.

"We don't want to give under-geared or unorganised groups a near guaranteed chance of success," he added. "Because then the content will feel absolutely trivial for players in appropriate gear who communicate, cooperate, and strategise."

Street said how Blizzard "didn't like" the Heroic dungeons of Lich King and early Naxxramas, for they had become "zerg-fests". Equipment was replaced and forgotten too quickly; character capability was downplayed; and boss mechanics "ignored" - "The fights all felt the same".

"In Cataclysm," Street declared, "the Heroic dungeons and raids are intended to be challenging - and they are, at least until you over-gear them."

He added: "We've seen a few threads that suggest that we're [Blizzard] too proud to admit mistakes. I find that logic strange, because we do it all the time," Street continued, using the Tol Barad honour roll-back, Warrior's Heroic Strike tweak and Lich King dungeons as examples.

But, he said, "We don't at all view the Cataclysm dungeon and raid balance as a mistake."

Nevertheless, Heroic dungeons could be better. The item-level requirement (333) for characters to tackle Heroic dungeons was "not sufficient". Players should also have been required to beat the dungeon on Normal mode first. "Maybe we should have made the item level requirements pretty relaxed if you're going with a pre-made group and much stricter if you're going with a pick-up group," he mused.

"Perhaps another way to handle it would have been to have introductory Heroics and harder Heroics," thought Street. "We've also flirted with having three difficulty levels before, but that does add an extra level of content to develop and complexity to explain."

Street admitted that his team can also do a better job of explaining why groups failed, which would alleviate the stress directed at healers when things go wrong.

"We do understand that some healers are frustrated and giving up. That is sad and unfortunate," said Street. "But the degree to which it's happening, at least at this point in time, is vastly overstated on the forums.

"As always, we're keeping an eye on things. There are a few bosses that seem responsible for more wipes than the others: Commander Springvale, Beauty, Altairus, and Admiral Ripsnarl perhaps.

"By the time you read this, you might have seen us implement Restoration druid buffs intended to keep them competitive in raids. We also just tend to nerf content over time because the original players hitting that content have moved on, so we want to open it up to a wider audience."

"In any case," he added, "we want to ensure that everyone is having fun and enjoying their time with the game, and I hope that this post may serve to some as the 'tare' button that helps you zero in on the intended dungeon difficulty scale."

Street complimented his post with a few dungeoneering tips, most of which veteran players will consider rudimentary.

He also offered a glimmer of hope regarding patch 4.1, which will offer more powerful gear to the masses through Justice Points.

Comments (22) Latest comment 1 year ago

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  • StolenGlory #1 1 year ago

  • Tiiti #2 1 year ago

    Good one Blizzard. That's exactly why I left the game for nearly 2 years, because it was just way to easy.
  • Shikasama #3 1 year ago

    When I stopped playing in WOTLK me and my friends knew this would happen. Players were spoilt by the 'ROFL TANK EVERY MOBZ' instances of Northrend.

    Fuck, I remember Steam Vaults being one of the hardest things in the game at one point because the pulls were tight and the mobs hit like bricks. I was lucky enough (and it is, to date, my greatest gaming experience) to be part of a team that beat Kael'thas before he was hit hard with the nerf bat and at that time the Heroics and the raids from Karazhan (which was seriously hard when it was released) throguh SSC and TK were amazing. A great level of challenge and complexity. Black Temple not so much maybe.

    In WOTLK it went out of the window. Even Ulduar up until Vezax was ridiculously simple. Even though I don't play anymore I'm glad to see that Blizzard have gone back to the good old days ofrequiring at least a base level of competancy.

    Do the heroics do much in the way of 'radi training'? Karazhan was great for that, teaching players some fundamental mechanics in each boss fight that was used for the harder raids.
  • rodpad #4 1 year ago

    Just a smokescreen. Dungeons are nerfed and classes buffed in the latest PTR patch notes.
  • darkmorgado #5 1 year ago

    ORLY?

    Look at the latest patch notes for 4.06. Dungeon nerfs a-plenty! Loads of reduced boss damage, some bosses like Lord Ashbury in SFK is losing his "mend rotten flesh" ability (which completely defeats his purpose as a gatekeeper boss and will turn him into faceroll) some boss attacks are having their damage reduced by up to 25% and their cast times increased, some adds are being removed completely...

    Personally, a couple of cheap bosses aside (Corborus springs to mind), I don't think HCs are too hard at all. Blizzard obviously does think they are too hard (or they're just pandering to the emo players who started in Lich King when everything was faceroll), but is too scared to say as much in case they lose face.
  • Spekingur #6 1 year ago

    Will Blizzard's own arrogance be their downfall?
  • gruntboy #7 1 year ago

    @Spekingur - "Will Blizzard's own arrogance be their downfall?"

    Can you elaborate? I'm not sure I read arrogance in these words from Blizzard.
  • butler` #8 1 year ago

    There's fire. Don't stand in it.
  • paulf #9 1 year ago

    the problem with the current batch of heroic dungeons is not that they are too hard it's that after WOTLK, players aren't equipped with the skills to handle them.

    A lot of players don't know what crowd control or interrupts are and you get dps who attack any old target then blame the tank for not having aggro (I was in a group the other night where I marked Skull as the first to down, and it ended up going down last - and this was with a group who had epic items)

    the only thing I'd say to Blizz to make the game easier would be to normalise the crowd control so Mages could poly anything etc
  • LazyDan #10 1 year ago

    They're not too hard for a group of friends (challenge = fun,) but they're way too hard for random groups. No one has any patience when you're anonymous on the internet - everyone expects their group to simply be a quite good AI and you get kicked out or given shit when someone doesn't live up to that expectation. I don't have the benefit of a good guild, and trying to co-ordinate random people (i.e 98% anus breathers) in the dungeon finder tool each and every time is just not an enjoyable task.

    Hard dungeons = excellent for groups of friends, but it's more or less made the dungeon finder tool broken at a conceptual level.
  • The_Bloody_Kettle #11 1 year ago

    I used to do Heroics back in TBC when I played.
    I think I was undergeared.. but my mates carried me to teach me basic skills.

    I never went in with random groups until I geared up and learnt how to do things.
    Surely no expects to be able to do one of the harder bits of the game easily? Part of gaming is the challenge after all.

    Then again, thinking back to early WotLK, when I stopped, I suppose they would.
  • davisorle #12 1 year ago

    Post deleted at 20:44:35 16-04-2012
  • Dizzy #13 1 year ago

    One DK in my recent group asked "What does cc mean?".

    Nuff said I guess.

    The problems with heroic PUGs is that after one wipe, usually everybody leaves blaming the tank or the healer (or both). I have seen plenty of healers firing off HOTs before the mobs have reached the tank, generating aggro and then blaming it all on a bad tank. Incredible. Tanking actually hasn't changed since vanilla if you take it seriously. Keep aggro on as much as possible and don't break cc.
    Edited by Dizzy at 13/01/11 @ 11:10
  • gmjapan #14 1 year ago

    He mentioned one of the biggest issues with them other than learn2play; making it more obvious what actually went wrong.
    If they could get rid of some of the overblow pyrotechnics for alot of spell effects as well, i might see whats going on rather than have add-ons tell me ;)

    I hated the Wrath heroic zerg-fests. Yea its great having a 5min dungeon and 20sec boss fights between you and the phat loot but it also means I have no interest held in it past a day or two.

    I like the sound of loosening the limits for pre-made groups and keeping them tight, or tighter, for pugs.
  • FortysixterUK #15 1 year ago

    The Heroic Cataclysm dungeons are very hard to get through without wiping.
    It would be a lot easier if moody players would avoid leaving the group on the first sign of an impending wipe or actual wipe.

    It's clearly obvious you are supposed to wipe to make it feel like you have earnt the gear you win ( or the points ).
    That said, I'm not sure if I'm particularly enjoying the Cata Heroics , but again, that could be down to the people in the Pugs.

    They are waaay too hard as far as I'm concerned. But they are bound to get modded by upcoming patches. Then once people can actually start selling chaos orbs on the AH, we can all afford to make the top end armour, which in turn will make the HC instances easier.

    On an unrelated matter, there a few points made about players needing "skillz" to play wow. I have abolutely no wow "skillz", but I pay a regular subscription like everyone else, should I, along with everyone else, not all be able to enjoy the same access ? I want access to what I pay for.There is NO valaid argument against that, my money is as good as the next persons. Full stop.
    Edited by FortysixterUK at 13/01/11 @ 11:34
  • Kanjin #16 1 year ago

    I don't get people who play a game and don't bother to learn how to play it... surely it ruins the whole point? Plus you're paying for it, so you're coughing up to not enjoy yourself and annoy other people. WTF.
  • drhickman1983 #17 1 year ago

    Though I can't say I often agree with Ghostcrawler, I'm with him on this. I'm not a great player (hell, I didn't even see a LK normal kill until about a month before the start of WOTLK, though that's more to do with not always finding good groups) but the dungeons in Cata are pretty well tuned.

    Regarding the nerfs on the PTR, I don't think they are all that bad. Tempted to post a huge list of the changes and what I think of them, but after copy pasting it's frankly far too long. But in summary, the nerfs aren't that great.

    With the exception of Baron Ashbury, which is a ridiculous nerf, if you were struggling with the bosses you'll probably still struggle. Not to mention a few bosses are being buffed. So whilst there are a few nerfs incoming, they will not turn the dungeons into cakewalks. If dungeons start to feel easier it's much more likely to be down to your increasing ilevel.

  • bigbadbeasty #18 1 year ago

    But they are nerfing all the dungeons!

    Every one is getting altered, almost all bosses will be tweaked, he may say that, but the PTR patch notes say otherwise.
  • Spekingur #19 1 year ago

    @gruntboy: What I meant was some kind of we-don't-need-to-listen-to-players-since-we-know-best attitude. Some of the Blizzard folk seem to be moving in that direction at least. I kind of got that vibe from these texts in the article.
  • Rack #20 1 year ago

    @Dizzy

    Is it really "nuff said" Is memorising a thousand arcane abbreviations really something that should be required? If he didn't understand what Crowd Control was then perhaps fair enough, though the extent to which Crowd Control has been marginalised is perhaps a separate issue.
  • Ryboy #21 1 year ago

    At least I'll get a bit less hassle from 13 years olds calling me a noob for apparently not doing enough threat.
  • gmjapan #22 1 year ago

    @FortysixerUK "should I, along with everyone else, not all be able to enjoy the same access ? I want access to what I pay for"

    But you have access to all the same content. That you cant complete the heroic mode just means you need difficulty settings. Its called normal mode for now, and later on, when patches change content and make better items available, as you said the heroic will be completable for you too.

    From a personal point of view, I want the dungeons to involve CC and some thought and some tactics. I dont want it overly complicated and inaccessable, I just dont want the mindless aoe-fests of Wrath.