The UK General Politics Thread Page 70

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  • Bremenacht 8 Jan 2013 23:43:16 15,741 posts
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    Dougs wrote:
    It's not just about helping them learn.... Loads of kids, especially those from disadvantaged backgrounds, don't get made breakfast because their parents can't be bothered or are drunk/stoned etc. Some are sent in with crisps and a chocolate bar.
    Remember those awful old bags who ran a campaign against Jamie Oliver's school meals because they were full of salad and other healthy crap that kids 'cannot eat' and kids weren't allowed to go to the chippy for sausage and chips. So they did a chippie run at lunchtime, passing the stuff through the school fence. You can take our freedom, but you'll never take our bad diets!

    I've not really followed the 1% story because I'm finding UK politics to be intolerably slimey at the moment, so do correct me if I'm wrong here, but if you're earning 15kpa at the moment without any rise in the past 5 years and no prospect of a rise for the next 3 or 4, wouldn't you have considered it better to be completely out of work and being 4% better off every year? What salary to you have to be earning to be worse off under these changes? Less than 14kpa?

    Let's assume a nice government doesn't make any cuts. Where does the money come from to prevent government debt from continuing to rise? We've already seen what high earners do when top-rate tax goes up. We also see that there's a lucrative industry in tax-avoidance and *no* government will ever sufficiently deal with that. So. Where does the money come from?

    Once an eagle taught me courage. And I will never forget that day

  • TheSaint 8 Jan 2013 23:48:22 13,629 posts
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    Psychotext wrote:
    He never said "only".
    True, but it's still relevant considering the age of some of the negative things he is using to illustrate his point.
  • Psychotext 8 Jan 2013 23:48:53 52,768 posts
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    Where's the line for income support, working tax credits and child tax credits currently? I'm sure we could do the maths.

    Edit - God... maybe not. To be honest I'm struggling to find any way to compare anyone on a good wage to anyone on these benefits because the eligibility criteria is far too low.

    Edited by Psychotext at 23:57:57 08-01-2013
  • RelaxedMikki 8 Jan 2013 23:54:30 892 posts
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    @TheSaint

    Yup, saying straight up "I can't be bothered" shocks even me.

    I have real trouble getting our kids to eat breakfast. Our daughter "doesn't like milk" and our lad is all over the shop in the mornings. My wife is going through a difficult time right now and can't help as much as she would like. There have been plenty of occasions when I have had the kids munching ceral bars from the local shop as we rush into the school playground just as the bell rings. Never have time to be ashamed in the morning (too busy just focusing on getting them to school and me to work) but on reflection I wish I could sort it out...
  • TheSaint 8 Jan 2013 23:58:22 13,629 posts
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    I probably don't have the best perspective on this because I love breakfast and always have.
  • RelaxedMikki 9 Jan 2013 00:01:07 892 posts
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    On the benefits and tax side, doesn't the whole system just need massivly de-complicating?

    I work in the benefits applications industry, and none of the system architects fully understand all the intracacies. The politicians who make the decisions haven't got a chance...
  • Psychotext 9 Jan 2013 00:08:49 52,768 posts
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    Talking of which, was just using this site for calculating some test cases: http://www.turn2us.entitledto.co.uk

    Is really quite good.
  • Bremenacht 9 Jan 2013 00:09:55 15,741 posts
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    Psychotext wrote:
    Where's the line for income support, working tax credits and child tax credits currently? I'm sure we could do the maths.

    Edit - God... maybe not. To be honest I'm struggling to find any way to compare anyone on a good wage to anyone on these benefits because the eligibility criteria is far too low.
    That's my problem. I've got no idea what these changes will really do, other than save money for the government. It'll probably be weeks before anyone builds a clear picture.

    How does politics serve the public when almost everything we hear or read is disinformation.

    Once an eagle taught me courage. And I will never forget that day

  • Psychotext 9 Jan 2013 00:16:14 52,768 posts
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    I just managed to work out that the most I could get unemployed would be about 11800 a year. The point where benefits stopped seems to be about 18,500. Higher than I expected... I imagine there's a shitload of people out there who could be getting benefits that they have absolutely no idea they could be entitled to.

    That's just for a bog standard single guy with no kids or disabilities. Interesting.

    Edited by Psychotext at 00:18:18 09-01-2013
  • Khanivor 9 Jan 2013 00:56:14 39,862 posts
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    It's kinda fucked up how, even with their politics being as bad as they are and the attitude towards progressive society so negative, at least by the loudest cunts, that the US treats its unemployed people better. OK, it was touch and go with the fiscal cliff bollocks, (if a bill didn't pass folks on unemployment would have been cut off) but there aren't bills afoot to cut such benefits. There's an awful lot of political hay made out of doing what the Tories are doing, calling them the cause and root of all our problems, yet they seem to truck on regardless.

    The UK does have an issue with benefit dependency, (in the US you'll typically only get about six months of benefits before the taps shuts off) but ya'll being sold a load of fucking bullshit by your politicians.

    No, really!

    Sad thing is, the next lot in will almost do nothing to reverse this.
  • Khanivor 9 Jan 2013 00:59:16 39,862 posts
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    Bremenacht wrote:
    So. Where does the money come from?
    A healthy economy. Which, in our consumer based economies, come from people spending money. Which means directing more money into the pockets of those most compelled to spend. Which means the poorer.
  • Psychotext 9 Jan 2013 01:11:55 52,768 posts
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    I was thinking about that earlier. The thing about the poor is that they're not really likely to spend their money on holidays in the alps or hide their money away in tax havens.

    Give them 50 and I'd be amazed if most of it didn't go straight back into the local economy. At that point you can probably collect some VAT, some business taxes, some employee taxes, some national insurance. Hell, I wouldn't be surprised if by the end of it you had most of your 50 back.
  • Khanivor 9 Jan 2013 01:42:14 39,862 posts
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    We meed elstoof in here to tell us how someone dropping 20 million on a yacht built in Spain and registered in the Bahamas helps the British economy so much more than 20,000 people spending a grand over a couple of months at the shops in the town they live in that we need to make sure those rich people aren't taxed so heavily they can only afford a 19.75 million pound yacht.
  • Khanivor 9 Jan 2013 01:47:53 39,862 posts
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    During the debates in the US, (AKA screaming fits) about topics such as food stamps the number crunchers came up with interesting little facts. Such as, (excuse the inexactness but fuck Google right now) for every dollar the government spends on food stamps 5 dollars are generated as that money passes through the economy,( food bought at shop, bus drivers paid from fares, shop owners bay new car, employees spend ti at Walmart and Wendys, Wendys employees spend it at Krystal, etc).

    From what I have been able to gather, the lower the income of the person spending a buck the more value that dollar will put into the local and regioanl economy. Sure, you could say an investor class spending a buck may help create a new company but what good is that for the person in Virginia who lost their job because orders were down because Widget Co. is now being undercut by Wanky the Investor's Widget Co operating out of Guangdong.
  • morriss 9 Jan 2013 10:54:03 70,748 posts
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    http://twitter.com/marcuschown/status/287926215564738561/photo/1
  • Moot_Point 9 Jan 2013 12:40:13 3,498 posts
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    Business determining whether we are in or out of the EU?

    http://m.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-20956130

    ================================================================================

    mowgli wrote: I can't believe this is still going. I'm far too hungover for this. I did not poop on a chair lol!

  • spamdangled 9 Jan 2013 15:16:37 27,197 posts
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    Khanivor wrote:
    The UK does have an issue with benefit dependency
    I think you will find that there is absolute zero evidence of that beyond political rhetoric.

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  • TheSaint 9 Jan 2013 15:37:40 13,629 posts
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    darkmorgado wrote:
    Khanivor wrote:
    The UK does have an issue with benefit dependency
    I think you will find that there is absolute zero evidence of that beyond political rhetoric.
    This took all of two secs to google:

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/8277440/Quarter-of-a-million-children-growing-up-in-cycle-of-benefit-dependency.html
  • Deleted user 9 January 2013 15:42:15
    Methinks mongo is confusing "benefit dependency" with "benefit scrounging".
  • Dougs 9 Jan 2013 16:00:53 64,881 posts
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    Aye, it's a vicious circle. Generations have/are growing up on benefits purely as they know no better and think it's easy, seen it first hand. It might seem they get more than working, but unless you've got 5 kids all on DLA etc, the income isn't great. Depends where you live I guess.
  • MightyMouse 9 Jan 2013 16:42:40 1,091 posts
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    TheSaint wrote:
    darkmorgado wrote:
    Khanivor wrote:
    The UK does have an issue with benefit dependency
    I think you will find that there is absolute zero evidence of that beyond political rhetoric.
    This took all of two secs to google:

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/8277440/Quarter-of-a-million-children-growing-up-in-cycle-of-benefit-dependency.html
    I think a lot of people would just read that as Britain having a problem that there are too few jobs. I mean, that's the root problem, being on unemployment benefits is kind of a symptom. And once you've been unemployed it's harder to get another job so if you've got a large number of people with no jobs, you'll get a large number who are long-term unemployed.

    I guess the point is 'benefits dependency' suggests (to me at least) that there are enough jobs for everyone and they're all just choosing to be unemployed. Whereas those long-term unemployment figures happen mainly because there's too few jobs.
  • LeoliansBro 9 Jan 2013 16:46:53 41,863 posts
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    It's both. There's a problem where too many people are long term unemployed, borderline unemployable, and therefore ekeing out a benefits existence that doesn't teach their children (or give them the opportunity) to aspire to be a productive member of society. But there's also the (very Tory) view that if benefits are truly supportive, then there is no incentive to trade them in for the entry level jobs which are the only employment realistically available.

    These sort of thoughts lead to that 'Go and work in Homebase if you want JSA after 6 months' schemes.

    LB, you really are a massive geek.

  • imamazed 9 Jan 2013 16:50:53 5,450 posts
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    The thing I hate is the autobiographical tales that people use to argue that those perceived to be benefit dependent are lazy, stupid or both.

    "Well I got a job, din't I, you just have to go out and get it".

    Doesn't always work like that...
  • spamdangled 9 Jan 2013 16:51:28 27,197 posts
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    meme wrote:
    Methinks mongo is confusing "benefit dependency" with "benefit scrounging".
    Actually I'm not, I'm aware the real figure of benefit fraud is 0.6-0.7%. I was speaking specifically about the so-called culture of welfare dependence. I have to admit that I was actually in agreement that a culture like this existed until yesterday, but there were a number of independent reports cited in the commons debate yesterday which conclude that no such culture actually exists. Annoyingly I didn't bookmark the reports after skimming them, and I'm now having to skip through bits and bobs of yesterday's rather lengthy debate to try and find out where to get those reports. Which isn't particularly fun.

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  • MetalDog 9 Jan 2013 16:52:04 23,706 posts
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    Most people can't just take any old job either. They need something they can feasibly do, something they can afford to travel to and something that will cover their bills.

    The extreme right position on this is that people should relocate (costs money) to wherever necessary (most job in expensive regions) and do any job (which they might not have the skills for and may not pay anything like enough to cover the cost of the relocation/travel).

    Benefits paying more than entry level jobs is more a problem with entry level jobs not paying enough, but they don't want to hear that, therefore it's not true.

    -- boobs do nothing for me, I want moustaches and chest hair.

  • spamdangled 9 Jan 2013 16:53:10 27,197 posts
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    imamazed wrote:
    The thing I hate is the autobiographical tales that people use to argue that those perceived to be benefit dependent are lazy, stupid or both.

    "Well I got a job, din't I, you just have to go out and get it".

    Doesn't always work like that...
    There was a Tory in the debate yesterday who did this. He just endlessly recited a load of anonymous anecdotes, including one he had heard on the radio and presented it as "proof" that people on benefits are just lazy scroungers. Can't remember his name now, but he caused quite a lot of shouting across the chamber.

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  • LeoliansBro 9 Jan 2013 16:54:20 41,863 posts
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    'Entry level jobs not paying enough' is in turn a result of supply and demand, which benefits should also reflect. If people are willing to work for less than they could claim for being unemployed, I stand impressed. If people prefer to remain unemployed and collect more money, then I'm unsurprised and note that benefits are out of step with the market.

    LB, you really are a massive geek.

  • MetalDog 9 Jan 2013 16:56:59 23,706 posts
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    I've had to live on benefits a time or two and it's a fucking miserable existence. Working is often shit, but that's shitter. However, you do need to pay the bills and the complexities of benefits once you do /any/ kind of work is mental. You can lose it all by working too much despite the pay not being enough. It's crazy. This counts for volunteer work too, because the argument goes that if you're doing 20 hours of volunteer work a week, you're not looking for a job in that time, so fuck you.

    @edit 'fuck you' as in 'fuck you getting any JSA, that is, not 'Fuck you Leolian's bro!' =)

    Edited by MetalDog at 16:58:08 09-01-2013

    -- boobs do nothing for me, I want moustaches and chest hair.

  • spamdangled 9 Jan 2013 16:59:38 27,197 posts
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    Rather than demonise people on welfare, cite the whole "capping benefits at 26.5k" thing in a way that suggests most benefit recipients actually receive that much (they most certainly don't), and then use it to try and set low-earning workers against their unemployed neighbours, I would much rather see the minimum wage set to the rate of the Living Wage.

    However, I understand that this will have a large knock on effect for businesses, particularly small businesses, so am unsure about how to go about implementing this without disrupting that area of
    employment.

    That said, many businesses said similar doom-mongering warnings about the introduction of the Minimum Wage and to the best of my recollection none of their predictions came to pass.

    /undecided

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  • Jeepers 9 Jan 2013 17:08:00 13,155 posts
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    Mongo has an unerring talent for transforming me from yer-typical-bearded-lefty to a raging, spittle-flecked Tory.
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