The UK General Politics Thread Page 70

  • Page

    of 810 First / Last

  • TheSaint 8 Jan 2013 23:58:22 17,405 posts
    Seen 2 hours ago
    Registered 12 years ago
    I probably don't have the best perspective on this because I love breakfast and always have.
  • RelaxedMikki 9 Jan 2013 00:01:07 2,279 posts
    Seen 14 hours ago
    Registered 8 years ago
    On the benefits and tax side, doesn't the whole system just need massivly de-complicating?

    I work in the benefits applications industry, and none of the system architects fully understand all the intracacies. The politicians who make the decisions haven't got a chance...
  • Psychotext 9 Jan 2013 00:08:49 62,039 posts
    Seen 8 hours ago
    Registered 11 years ago
    Talking of which, was just using this site for calculating some test cases: http://www.turn2us.entitledto.co.uk

    Is really quite good.
  • Deleted user 9 January 2013 00:09:55
    Psychotext wrote:
    Where's the line for income support, working tax credits and child tax credits currently? I'm sure we could do the maths.

    Edit - God... maybe not. To be honest I'm struggling to find any way to compare anyone on a good wage to anyone on these benefits because the eligibility criteria is far too low.
    That's my problem. I've got no idea what these changes will really do, other than save money for the government. It'll probably be weeks before anyone builds a clear picture.

    How does politics serve the public when almost everything we hear or read is disinformation.
  • Psychotext 9 Jan 2013 00:16:14 62,039 posts
    Seen 8 hours ago
    Registered 11 years ago
    I just managed to work out that the most I could get unemployed would be about 11800 a year. The point where benefits stopped seems to be about 18,500. Higher than I expected... I imagine there's a shitload of people out there who could be getting benefits that they have absolutely no idea they could be entitled to.

    That's just for a bog standard single guy with no kids or disabilities. Interesting.

    Edited by Psychotext at 00:18:18 09-01-2013
  • Khanivor 9 Jan 2013 00:56:14 43,371 posts
    Seen 15 minutes ago
    Registered 16 years ago
    It's kinda fucked up how, even with their politics being as bad as they are and the attitude towards progressive society so negative, at least by the loudest cunts, that the US treats its unemployed people better. OK, it was touch and go with the fiscal cliff bollocks, (if a bill didn't pass folks on unemployment would have been cut off) but there aren't bills afoot to cut such benefits. There's an awful lot of political hay made out of doing what the Tories are doing, calling them the cause and root of all our problems, yet they seem to truck on regardless.

    The UK does have an issue with benefit dependency, (in the US you'll typically only get about six months of benefits before the taps shuts off) but ya'll being sold a load of fucking bullshit by your politicians.

    No, really!

    Sad thing is, the next lot in will almost do nothing to reverse this.
  • Khanivor 9 Jan 2013 00:59:16 43,371 posts
    Seen 15 minutes ago
    Registered 16 years ago
    Bremenacht wrote:
    So. Where does the money come from?
    A healthy economy. Which, in our consumer based economies, come from people spending money. Which means directing more money into the pockets of those most compelled to spend. Which means the poorer.
  • Psychotext 9 Jan 2013 01:11:55 62,039 posts
    Seen 8 hours ago
    Registered 11 years ago
    I was thinking about that earlier. The thing about the poor is that they're not really likely to spend their money on holidays in the alps or hide their money away in tax havens.

    Give them 50 and I'd be amazed if most of it didn't go straight back into the local economy. At that point you can probably collect some VAT, some business taxes, some employee taxes, some national insurance. Hell, I wouldn't be surprised if by the end of it you had most of your 50 back.
  • Khanivor 9 Jan 2013 01:42:14 43,371 posts
    Seen 15 minutes ago
    Registered 16 years ago
    We meed elstoof in here to tell us how someone dropping 20 million on a yacht built in Spain and registered in the Bahamas helps the British economy so much more than 20,000 people spending a grand over a couple of months at the shops in the town they live in that we need to make sure those rich people aren't taxed so heavily they can only afford a 19.75 million pound yacht.
  • Khanivor 9 Jan 2013 01:47:53 43,371 posts
    Seen 15 minutes ago
    Registered 16 years ago
    During the debates in the US, (AKA screaming fits) about topics such as food stamps the number crunchers came up with interesting little facts. Such as, (excuse the inexactness but fuck Google right now) for every dollar the government spends on food stamps 5 dollars are generated as that money passes through the economy,( food bought at shop, bus drivers paid from fares, shop owners bay new car, employees spend ti at Walmart and Wendys, Wendys employees spend it at Krystal, etc).

    From what I have been able to gather, the lower the income of the person spending a buck the more value that dollar will put into the local and regioanl economy. Sure, you could say an investor class spending a buck may help create a new company but what good is that for the person in Virginia who lost their job because orders were down because Widget Co. is now being undercut by Wanky the Investor's Widget Co operating out of Guangdong.
  • morriss 9 Jan 2013 10:54:03 71,290 posts
    Seen 1 day ago
    Registered 13 years ago
    http://twitter.com/marcuschown/status/287926215564738561/photo/1
  • Moot_Point 9 Jan 2013 12:40:13 5,530 posts
    Seen 1 year ago
    Registered 5 years ago
    Business determining whether we are in or out of the EU?

    http://m.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-20956130
  • spamdangled 9 Jan 2013 15:16:37 30,997 posts
    Seen 50 minutes ago
    Registered 9 years ago
    Khanivor wrote:
    The UK does have an issue with benefit dependency
    I think you will find that there is absolute zero evidence of that beyond political rhetoric.
  • TheSaint 9 Jan 2013 15:37:40 17,405 posts
    Seen 2 hours ago
    Registered 12 years ago
    darkmorgado wrote:
    Khanivor wrote:
    The UK does have an issue with benefit dependency
    I think you will find that there is absolute zero evidence of that beyond political rhetoric.
    This took all of two secs to google:

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/8277440/Quarter-of-a-million-children-growing-up-in-cycle-of-benefit-dependency.html
  • Deleted user 9 January 2013 15:42:15
    Methinks mongo is confusing "benefit dependency" with "benefit scrounging".
  • Dougs 9 Jan 2013 16:00:53 83,778 posts
    Seen 45 minutes ago
    Registered 15 years ago
    Aye, it's a vicious circle. Generations have/are growing up on benefits purely as they know no better and think it's easy, seen it first hand. It might seem they get more than working, but unless you've got 5 kids all on DLA etc, the income isn't great. Depends where you live I guess.
  • MightyMouse 9 Jan 2013 16:42:40 1,160 posts
    Seen 5 days ago
    Registered 11 years ago
    TheSaint wrote:
    darkmorgado wrote:
    Khanivor wrote:
    The UK does have an issue with benefit dependency
    I think you will find that there is absolute zero evidence of that beyond political rhetoric.
    This took all of two secs to google:

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/8277440/Quarter-of-a-million-children-growing-up-in-cycle-of-benefit-dependency.html
    I think a lot of people would just read that as Britain having a problem that there are too few jobs. I mean, that's the root problem, being on unemployment benefits is kind of a symptom. And once you've been unemployed it's harder to get another job so if you've got a large number of people with no jobs, you'll get a large number who are long-term unemployed.

    I guess the point is 'benefits dependency' suggests (to me at least) that there are enough jobs for everyone and they're all just choosing to be unemployed. Whereas those long-term unemployment figures happen mainly because there's too few jobs.
  • imamazed 9 Jan 2013 16:50:53 6,307 posts
    Seen 21 hours ago
    Registered 11 years ago
    The thing I hate is the autobiographical tales that people use to argue that those perceived to be benefit dependent are lazy, stupid or both.

    "Well I got a job, din't I, you just have to go out and get it".

    Doesn't always work like that...
  • spamdangled 9 Jan 2013 16:51:28 30,997 posts
    Seen 50 minutes ago
    Registered 9 years ago
    meme wrote:
    Methinks mongo is confusing "benefit dependency" with "benefit scrounging".
    Actually I'm not, I'm aware the real figure of benefit fraud is 0.6-0.7%. I was speaking specifically about the so-called culture of welfare dependence. I have to admit that I was actually in agreement that a culture like this existed until yesterday, but there were a number of independent reports cited in the commons debate yesterday which conclude that no such culture actually exists. Annoyingly I didn't bookmark the reports after skimming them, and I'm now having to skip through bits and bobs of yesterday's rather lengthy debate to try and find out where to get those reports. Which isn't particularly fun.
  • MetalDog 9 Jan 2013 16:52:04 24,080 posts
    Seen 4 weeks ago
    Registered 16 years ago
    Most people can't just take any old job either. They need something they can feasibly do, something they can afford to travel to and something that will cover their bills.

    The extreme right position on this is that people should relocate (costs money) to wherever necessary (most job in expensive regions) and do any job (which they might not have the skills for and may not pay anything like enough to cover the cost of the relocation/travel).

    Benefits paying more than entry level jobs is more a problem with entry level jobs not paying enough, but they don't want to hear that, therefore it's not true.
  • spamdangled 9 Jan 2013 16:53:10 30,997 posts
    Seen 50 minutes ago
    Registered 9 years ago
    imamazed wrote:
    The thing I hate is the autobiographical tales that people use to argue that those perceived to be benefit dependent are lazy, stupid or both.

    "Well I got a job, din't I, you just have to go out and get it".

    Doesn't always work like that...
    There was a Tory in the debate yesterday who did this. He just endlessly recited a load of anonymous anecdotes, including one he had heard on the radio and presented it as "proof" that people on benefits are just lazy scroungers. Can't remember his name now, but he caused quite a lot of shouting across the chamber.
  • MetalDog 9 Jan 2013 16:56:59 24,080 posts
    Seen 4 weeks ago
    Registered 16 years ago
    I've had to live on benefits a time or two and it's a fucking miserable existence. Working is often shit, but that's shitter. However, you do need to pay the bills and the complexities of benefits once you do /any/ kind of work is mental. You can lose it all by working too much despite the pay not being enough. It's crazy. This counts for volunteer work too, because the argument goes that if you're doing 20 hours of volunteer work a week, you're not looking for a job in that time, so fuck you.

    @edit 'fuck you' as in 'fuck you getting any JSA, that is, not 'Fuck you Leolian's bro!' =)

    Edited by MetalDog at 16:58:08 09-01-2013
  • spamdangled 9 Jan 2013 16:59:38 30,997 posts
    Seen 50 minutes ago
    Registered 9 years ago
    Rather than demonise people on welfare, cite the whole "capping benefits at 26.5k" thing in a way that suggests most benefit recipients actually receive that much (they most certainly don't), and then use it to try and set low-earning workers against their unemployed neighbours, I would much rather see the minimum wage set to the rate of the Living Wage.

    However, I understand that this will have a large knock on effect for businesses, particularly small businesses, so am unsure about how to go about implementing this without disrupting that area of
    employment.

    That said, many businesses said similar doom-mongering warnings about the introduction of the Minimum Wage and to the best of my recollection none of their predictions came to pass.

    /undecided
  • Jeepers 9 Jan 2013 17:08:00 16,392 posts
    Seen 2 hours ago
    Registered 12 years ago
    Mongo has an unerring talent for transforming me from yer-typical-bearded-lefty to a raging, spittle-flecked Tory.
  • MightyMouse 9 Jan 2013 17:59:58 1,160 posts
    Seen 5 days ago
    Registered 11 years ago
    The thing is there are nowhere near enough jobs even at minimum wage to employ everyone, and with a lot of those kind of jobs they're available because of churn. Cutting minimum wage wouldn't necessarily help either as people paid less means people spending less, means fewer jobs again (I'm pretty sure there's some model for finding out what the balance between this and the positive effects of being able to employ more people, can't remember what it is).

    Fundamentally, you can't solve the problems of benefits by a race to the bottom. Which is why this stuff is all just political posturing and a sham, albeit one that's going to affect a lot of people.
  • Psychotext 9 Jan 2013 18:26:29 62,039 posts
    Seen 8 hours ago
    Registered 11 years ago
    Psh. Even people working 40 hours a week on minimum wage are entitled to some benefits. Filthy shirkers.
  • Load_2.0 9 Jan 2013 19:21:04 25,799 posts
    Seen 4 hours ago
    Registered 14 years ago
    What amazes me is mongos ability to produce a vast array of culinary delicacies, design complex boardgames, along with his ability to spend hour upon hour in front of a monitor bashing out walls of text, coupled with his analysis and dissemination of a huge range of topics and yet be unable to find gainful employment.

    What a cruel world when such a talented individual is forced to sit at home all day playing games and surfing the net.
  • Page

    of 810 First / Last

Log in or register to reply

Sometimes posts may contain links to online retail stores. If you click on one and make a purchase we may receive a small commission. For more information, go here.