The Legend of Zelda: Skyward Sword Page 83

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  • Doomspoon 21 Apr 2013 00:29:25 2,494 posts
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    sajasanman wrote:
    @Doomspoon You just didn't work out the right action. Took me while too, but to say it's just flailing is silly.
    Also this, see the above comment about punching, this reflects on the sword fights too. From the age of 12 I regularly trained in broadsword fighting, I did a little rapier and epee work too, I spent a hell of a lot of the 90s using a broadsword and in the kung fu I've been training in for the last 12 years I've done the odd bit of sword technique there.

    The controls don't work.
  • ecu 21 Apr 2013 00:34:22 77,097 posts
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    Obviously they work for some people. But considering motion controls were supposed to make games accessible to everyone, it's a clear failure that so many people find they make this game unplayable.
  • Doomspoon 21 Apr 2013 00:37:54 2,494 posts
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    Humour me for a moment please. Assuming you're making a right to left slash with the sword, and that you're right handed, where in relation to your body is your right arm?
  • Kid_Icarus 21 Apr 2013 00:53:04 555 posts
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    After watching both my flatmates play this when it came out I think it's actually a bit of both. The controls are adequate at best, but there is some cack-handedness involved.
    Everytime there was any sort of accurate movement required it wouldn't work because they were holding it at a wonky angle and didn't even realise it.
    Wii Sports Bowling had a similar problem where you thought you were bowling straight but curled it every time, it's probably the way the remote sits in your hands.

    The controls could definitely have done with being a bit less finicky though.
  • Doomspoon 21 Apr 2013 01:07:40 2,494 posts
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    It might be connected to the fact you're essentially trying to mime activities that are based around manipulating weighty objects but not bearing any such weight yourself. The bowling for example, being weighted down by actually carrying that ball is going to keep the arm moving in a straighter line. The sword, a proper one with the balance point just off the cross, the wrist rolls defining the attitude of the blade and the weight of the blade carries itself to its destination.

    As such it will never work properly.
  • ZuluHero 21 Apr 2013 11:25:33 4,213 posts
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    Doomspoon wrote:
    Regarding the controls, it has a hard time registering a horizontal slash as anything other than from left to right rather than the other way around, likewise it registers a vertical slash as only downwards regardless of which vertical motion I use
    This is correct. Its not a 1:1 sword fighting game. You horizontal with the left to right gesture.

    In regards to the fight you were stuck on, you lead his arm in circles till he stops tracking you or until his hand is away from his body then you quickly do the left to right gesture. It taught you this with the eyes that you make dizzy earlier in the dungeon.

    To repeat, its not a real sword fighting game.
  • Doomspoon 21 Apr 2013 12:26:44 2,494 posts
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    ZuluHero wrote:

    To repeat, its not a real sword fighting game.
    A point I was making indirectly, so why force the use of wonky controls in the first place? I'd much prefer to just use traditional controls and garner more enjoyment from the game thanks.

    Regarding the eyes, they were a pain in the arse too, several recalibrations were needed each time for it to register I was doing anything other then pointing from 12 o'clock to 3 o'clock and back to 12.
  • ZuluHero 21 Apr 2013 12:32:51 4,213 posts
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    Yeah i understand. Its a bit gimmicky; but the each new zelda has its gimmick. personally i felt a guilty pleasure when i had to pull the sword out if the stone or holding the sword skyward to get that charge strike.

    its those little gestures that made it more immersive for me, but i understabd why sime people might struggle with them.
  • RyanDS 21 Apr 2013 12:46:43 9,600 posts
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    mikew1985 wrote:
    Huh? I really don't get what your point is there.

    Anyway the controls are shit. Sure, They're fine 95% of the time. Which is pretty shit really.
    Imagine if the buttons on the Xbox controller didn't work 95% of the time. There would be such an outcry, but Nintendo are continuously praised for being able to get it wrong only that amount.

    Hilarious.
  • ZuluHero 21 Apr 2013 13:13:44 4,213 posts
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    I don't know, its akin to getting beaten in (insert fave console game here) and blaming the controls (we've all done it). Zelda isn't any worse for it. My save game has 70 hours on it and I've never had any problems. Its bastard hardcore at times, but I've never felt its been the controls that let me down. At least, no less than any other games ice played. Its always been my lack of skill to be my undoing.

    Zelda games always have that family friendly packaging, but really they are hardcore games.
  • Raiko101 21 Apr 2013 14:38:50 6,464 posts
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    RyanDS wrote:
    mikew1985 wrote:
    Huh? I really don't get what your point is there.

    Anyway the controls are shit. Sure, They're fine 95% of the time. Which is pretty shit really.
    Imagine if the buttons on the Xbox controller didn't work 95% of the time. There would be such an outcry, but Nintendo are continuously praised for being able to get it wrong only that amount.

    Hilarious.
    The 360's d-pad doesn't work 95% of the time, but that's ok because they relegated it to the bottom of the pad where it gets use only as a quick-select inventory button, so you don't have to put up with it 100% of the time.

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  • Doomspoon 21 Apr 2013 18:25:45 2,494 posts
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    I agree plenty acknowledge that the d-pad on the 360 pad is crap.

    Back to Skyward Sword and the controls:

    Some didn't have problems with the controls for Skyward Sword, good for them, really, that's great. Sadly plenty did. I rate LttP and OoT as two of my favourite games ever. I was really looking forward to playing Skyward Sword but the frustration at one early boss fight, more so 20 minutes of pointlessness where hits weren't registering/controller position wasn't recognised has put me off continuing the game oh so early into the experience. I genuinely don't want to write it off so early but I just don't have the patience to put up with awkward controls when I could be doing something I enjoy. Considering the point of playing a game is to have fun and all that's quite a big issue.

    I've also played a bit of Mario Kart, leaving aside opinions of the game itself, I tried the tilt controls and they were crap so I'm using the more traditional approach with the nunchuck and that's better. Nintendo had the sense to give players the choice of controls. They should have done this with every game.

    Edited by Doomspoon at 18:26:23 21-04-2013
  • JinTypeNoir 23 Apr 2013 07:17:17 4,392 posts
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    When it comes getting an accurate measure of the controls in Skyward Sword, none of us have a way of doing that. You say some didn't have problems, plenty did. I might say plenty didn't have, only some did. We can go on and on all day about who is in the majority or not, but all it will ever come down to are our personal biases (which are fine to have) and which one we perceive to be correct.

    One of my perceptions is such: It sounds me to like a lot of people who come into Skyward Sword with a negative opinion of motion controls were kind of daring the game to prove them wrong, whether they liked Zelda or not. I do think if you do that, its definitely going to affect perception of how accurate they are. Some people really saw the promise and future of motion controls with the Wii and stuck through it all the way through. These people tended to not have as many problems with Skyward Sword. Like all perceptions, this is a generalization, there are of course many outliers -- people who didn't like motion controls and were convinced by Skyward and those who loved them, but felt Skyward got it wrong -- but I think there is a kernel of truth in it.

    You either accepted that motion controls were in their infancy with the Wii, much like 3D environment were on the N64 and put up with the quirks for whatever value you found them in, or you decided that it wasn't worth it in the first place, most likely before Skyward Sword came out. You can find the same issue in Donkey Kong Country Returns with the waggle controls. Some people want the option. Others got so used to motion controls they didn't see the need.

    To me, playing Skyward Sword if you didn't get used to motion controls is like playing Bayonetta as your first 3D game. In fact, Mario 64 and Ocarina detractors used to claim many of the same things about it when they first came out. I heard a lot of, "I like the 2D ones but they ruined it when they went to 3D."
  • mikew1985 23 Apr 2013 08:31:16 12,901 posts
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    I think the important question is, did you have on more than one occasion, issues with the controls?

    There is literally no way you could get through this game without having the controls, seemingly spaz out for no reason. Whether that was sword swinging, remote centering (they came up with a nice enough quick fix for this but it still happened all the time) or whatever I really don't think it was possible.

    I played and finished the game, so I was fairly decent at compensating for the controls but just when you'd think you had it down to a t it would go haywire. They just weren't tight enough, certainly not for Nintendo standards. I think arguing the opposite is complete gubbins and fanboyism to be honest.
  • binky Moderator 23 Apr 2013 09:04:49 9,717 posts
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    I loved Skyward Sword. The music, the artwork, the story telling, all lovely.
    I never completed Skyward Sword. The controls spazzed out on me too often (for my liking) resulting in having to do entire dungeon sections again, making me very cross. Every time I thought about playing it I ended up remembering I had to use the wii controls and left it on the shelf. Real barrier of entry for me. Such a shame they didn't give you a choice of control method.

    Edited by binky at 09:05:05 23-04-2013
  • varsas 23 Apr 2013 10:27:59 2,403 posts
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    I'm up to 50+ hours and just completed the Hero's Song!

    The controls can be annoying at times but not the point where I've had to redo sections of the game; it's quite forgiving so taking a moment to reset things isn't too bad.

    I'm booked into the Symphony performance at Hammersmith on May 23rd. Anyone else going?

    Edited by varsas at 10:28:29 23-04-2013
  • JiveHound 23 Apr 2013 10:41:16 2,559 posts
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    While I enjoy the motion controls in SS more than in any game I still find them stopping me from wanting to load the game up.

    I think I would prefer them dropped for the next in the series. Unless the sword fighting is less finicky.

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  • Deleted user 23 April 2013 10:44:22
    binky wrote:
    Such a shame they didn't give you a choice of control method.
    The main issue that's plagued the Wii and all it's games.
  • ZuluHero 23 Apr 2013 10:45:25 4,213 posts
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    Next one will probably be on the Wii-U so with have its own 'nuances'. :p

    I'm really tempted by the Symphony of the Goddess tour. My 5 year old would love it (she listens to the Orchestral CD that came with Skyward Sword on repeat all day long!)
  • varsas 23 Apr 2013 11:25:11 2,403 posts
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    JiveHound wrote:
    While I enjoy the motion controls in SS more than in any game I still find them stopping me from wanting to load the game up.

    I think I would prefer them dropped for the next in the series. Unless the sword fighting is less finicky.
    Even with the problems I think I'd find it hard changing back to standard controls; I still need to finish Twilight Princess and I think it will be difficult to do so especially with the design updates in SS.


    ZuluHero wrote:
    Next one will probably be on the Wii-U so with have its own 'nuances'. :p

    I'm really tempted by the Symphony of the Goddess tour. My 5 year old would love it (she listens to the Orchestral CD that came with Skyward Sword on repeat all day long!)
    When it was announced I was interested but I thought the prices were high. In the last couple of weeks there have been offers from GAME and GROUPON for discounts so a friend and I bought half price circle tickets!

    Still 15% off at GAME as far as I can tell: https://www.facebook.com/notes/game/exclusive-15-off-loz-symphony-of-the-goddesses-tickets/10151591653721000

    Edited by varsas at 11:35:45 23-04-2013
  • Doomspoon 23 Apr 2013 12:51:07 2,494 posts
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    @JinTypeNoir I was fairly open minded to motion controls, just haven't bothered with them personally due to lack of space and using a PC monitor rather than TV in my own room. I've messed about with Raving Rabbids 2 and Just Dance 2 (despite being a metaller since around '86). I adopted the Eyetoy for PS2 right from launch and have messed about with the odd Kinect game at my girlfriend's place.

    I'm very definitely not against motion controls. What I am against is the forcing of overly ambitious motion controls into games that don't work with them 100% of the time.

    Regarding the N64 games the controls themselves worked fine. Super Mario 64 worked better than Sunshine on the GameCube. Ocarina of Time was fantastic. That Skyward Sword came so late into the Wii's life makes wonky controls even less acceptable, at that point the developers should have had them dialled, especially on a flagship title.

    Anyhow, I'll try and progress with it some more later. I can live with the odd recalibration but if I get stuck in a boss fight where the game won't acknowledge what I'm trying to do then that'll be it sent back to the rental place.
  • JinTypeNoir 23 Apr 2013 21:01:41 4,392 posts
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    Doomspoon wrote:
    Regarding the N64 games the controls themselves worked fine. Super Mario 64 worked better than Sunshine on the GameCube. Ocarina of Time was fantastic. That Skyward Sword came so late into the Wii's life makes wonky controls even less acceptable, at that point the developers should have had them dialled, especially on a flagship title.
    That's exactly the point. Super Mario 64 and Ocarina of Time controlled fine. Due to the newness of what both games were trying to do in 3D worlds, many people at the time claimed that they didn't and were awkward to play. (Among other things, if you remember that era, there was this whole 3D is lifeless, 2D is charming dichotomy going on as well.) When Skyward Sword has been out for many years and people are used to motion controls with full one on one control in many titles, will the same opinion be so divided? I'm saying, I doubt it.

    I'm not sure what you mean about Sunshine though -- unless you're talking about the change in how swimming was handled, which seemed to be divisive. The game required much tighter controls than 64 because it was a gazillion times more complex in level design -- and it had them. If you compare every game in the 3D Mario series, the controls get tighter and tighter in each game until they get to the level 3D Land on the 3DS where they are virtually indistinguishable from the 2D games. Mario 64 actually had quite loose hit detection and slower reaction for Mario, but that was okay because for the most part Mario's inertia was more important in slower-pacing platform challenges. Until 3D Land, a certain amount of this had to remain in place in most 3D platformers because it would be absurd to ask gamers to deal with depth perception on that level of speed without getting motion sick.
  • Doomspoon 24 Apr 2013 01:58:22 2,494 posts
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    Looking back, I think my biggest gripes with Sunshine were the misbehaving camera (which isn't a fair reflection on controls themselves) and the implementation of Fludd as a jet pack which I found to fly in the face of what had made platforming in Mario games so satisfying. The camera was horrendous though, that's my strongest memory of a Mario game I really couldn't stand playing. I've not bought a proper one since.

    Regarding reactions for SM64 I genuinely can't recall if the EU/UK version supported PAL60 (even if it was an option in games then (I'd been using software on my Amiga to allow this change since '92), it played just fine as I remember it but then it was the flagship title I bought with the N64 and I never went back to it after completing it back then, I didn't really have anything to compare it to. It was actually the game I bought the machine for in the first place, is it fair to assume this was a bigger problem on NTSC machines?

    Also, having been a C64 and Amiga owner, having played many vector/polygon based games from the mid 80s onwards I wasn't sure why there was a big fuss surrounding this big step to 3D environments console players were getting excited about. Naturally I understood people getting excited when more genres other than sims were using the tech.
  • varsas 30 Apr 2013 11:24:55 2,403 posts
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    I completed this at the weekend and have to say that overall I loved it. It felt both familiar and fresh. I thought the art style choice were perfect for Zelda and would love to see it continue in the next version of the game.
  • JinTypeNoir 16 May 2013 02:29:24 4,392 posts
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    I started replaying this game recently and it made me think, how many people didn't know that the Wii Motion Plus didn't use the same sensing method as the original Wiimote and didn't know you didn't have to point the controller at the screen for accurate recognition, or that pushing down on the d-pad helped recalibrate it to the position you were currently holding at? It seems to me like a lot of people accidentally recalibrate it to a funky position and then moving the Wiimote doesn't seem to match how they are holding it and conclude the system is borked.
  • mikew1985 16 May 2013 06:42:47 12,901 posts
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    I knew all of that, it's still relatively crap
  • JinTypeNoir 16 May 2013 10:56:18 4,392 posts
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    I'm not talking you or the other people in this thread who are knowledgeable about games, I'm talking about the average guy. I imagine first time players or more light users are quite befuddled by how complex 3D Zelda's controls are.
  • Armoured_Bear 16 May 2013 11:21:18 11,394 posts
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    varsas wrote:
    I completed this at the weekend and have to say that overall I loved it. It felt both familiar and fresh. I thought the art style choice were perfect for Zelda and would love to see it continue in the next version of the game.
    I loved and loathed this game but the art style is gorgeous, would love a similar style for the next one.

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