The Budget Gaming PC thread Page 121

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  • Roddles 5 Aug 2013 10:21:14 1,815 posts
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    And yeah, DDR4 for either Broadwell in 2014 or Skylake in 2015.
  • Buztafen 5 Aug 2013 10:35:10 16,147 posts
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    Heh, ok ok i'll take your word on the matter. :)

    Next conundrum is...do i get a 840 pro 256gb SSD or wait for the new 840 evo to come out.

    Edited by Buztafen at 10:38:35 05-08-2013
  • Roddles 5 Aug 2013 10:42:09 1,815 posts
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    Whatever's the cheapest. After all of these data throughput tests, all benchmarks have shown that in terms of game loading, they are all identical.

    I'd value size over theoretical performance.

    I have an 840 Pro and an OCZ Agility 3. Despite the former being supposedly the better drive, I've noticed zero real world difference - and here's probably why:



    The "on ram" caching on the EVO drive isn't going to make a difference when you load a game after boot up. Windows will leave a shadow of the game assets in memory for next time you launch it anyway (which was extremely useful during a disconnect in WoW when I was still using a slow mechanical drive when raiding).

    I'd say until the Evo's technology becomes widespread, it's only useful for servers at this point.

    Edited by Roddles at 10:45:30 05-08-2013
  • Buztafen 5 Aug 2013 10:56:38 16,147 posts
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    Fair enough, i could wait for the evo seen as it looks to be cheaper than most drives, and it's newer. Cheers.

    Currently i'm aiming for this setup:-

    i5-4670k (going to be overclocking)
    Gigabyte Mobo (Z87X-UD4H though that's probably overkill)
    8gb DDR3...i think.
    Samsung SSD probably Evo 250gb
    Corsair 300r Case (already bought at a ridiculously low price)

    I'll be using a 560Ti 448, Corsair HX850 psu and a couple of HD's from my old pc.

    Edited by Buztafen at 10:58:59 05-08-2013
  • Roddles 5 Aug 2013 11:05:32 1,815 posts
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    Big bottleneck on that 560Ti, but I'm sure you already know that. 760 at the minimum for a setup like that I'd say.
  • Buztafen 5 Aug 2013 11:11:59 16,147 posts
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    Yeah thought it would be...next upgrade :) though how big is a 'big bottleneck'? It's still a fairly capable card, i got it cheap from my workplace as a last hurrah for the Q6600. It's clocked to pretty much 570 speeds which I thought would be only a couple of rungs down from a 760?
  • Roddles 5 Aug 2013 11:38:05 1,815 posts
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    There's a huge difference between the 5xx cards (which were basically 4xx cards) and the 6xx cards which are a whole new generation. The 7xx cards are more efficient and slightly faster 6xx cards. I had a 560Ti and upgraded to a 670. The performance difference (not to mention acoustics) was immense. The 760 is on par with the 670 I believe.

    You'd see a bigger performance increase using a 760 on a Q6600 than a 560Ti 448 on an i5-4670K.

    Personally I'd say upgrade the GPU now, and do the CPU and motherboard later. Definitely get an SSD though. Great quality of life investment for PC and gaming use.

    Edited by Roddles at 11:41:02 05-08-2013
  • Buztafen 5 Aug 2013 11:44:55 16,147 posts
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    Really? At the time (just before the 6 series came out) i thought any higher than the 560Ti 448 wouldn't show any meaningful gain when paired with the Q6600...even with its current 3.4 OC?

    The main reason behind upgrading to a new setup was because i thought putting a newer gpu in my current pc was false economy. So the idea was to move to the latest intel platform then in a month or so get a new gpu which could take advantage of the extra breathing room a better processor offered.

    Edited by Buztafen at 11:58:03 05-08-2013
  • Roddles 5 Aug 2013 12:23:38 1,815 posts
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    Well you can do it in any order you like, but I can tell you for a fact that you'll get better gaming performance out of upgrading the GPU now and the CPU later, rather than the other way around.

    Either method of upgrading will bottleneck in some fashion, but most of the work at the moment is done by the GPU. The only games that particularly rely on the CPU are things like WoW.

    Here are some 3D Mark results with the two possible temporary setups, and your current setup

    Current Q6600 & 560Ti 448 Averaging around 3500

    i5-4670k & 560Ti 448 Averaging around 3750

    Q6660 & 760 Averaging around 5000

    Clear jump in performance with the GPU change rather than the CPU.

    And just for reference, when you do your full upgrade:

    i5-4670k & 760 Averaging around 5800

    Edited by Roddles at 12:34:45 05-08-2013
  • Roddles 5 Aug 2013 12:32:56 1,815 posts
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    Post deleted
  • Buztafen 5 Aug 2013 12:43:36 16,147 posts
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    Cheers for those, not tried the newest 3D Mark yet with my current setup.

    Out of interest looking at 3D Vantage results, adding a 760 to a Q6600 doesn't make much of a difference.

    3D Vantage Q6600 & 760

    3D Vantage Q6600 & 560Ti 448 actual result from my pc

    Old graphics benchmark holding the 760 back i guess?

    Interesting stuff. Maybe a new GPU and an SSD will do me for a while...

    Edited by Buztafen at 12:47:23 05-08-2013
  • graysonavich 5 Aug 2013 12:44:38 7,319 posts
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    DX1L0L
  • Roddles 5 Aug 2013 12:47:33 1,815 posts
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    Yeah ignore 3D Vantage. It's over 5 years old and isn't anywhere near as complex as your average 3D game nowadays, let alone gaming benchmark.

    3DMark 11 or the new 3DMark (released this year) is the current gold standard in terms of collating large amounts of relevant user results.

    Edited by Roddles at 12:48:49 05-08-2013
  • Buztafen 5 Aug 2013 13:01:25 16,147 posts
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    Fair enough, right so 760 is the sweet spot for what i'll be using it for i guess. 1080p gaming such as DayZ, Bioshock, Witcher 2, Tomb Raider etc

    Don't need to go higher in res as i'd rather be sat on my sofa in front of a hdtv than huddled over a keyboard in front of a 2.5k monitor.
  • Sharzam 5 Aug 2013 13:31:33 2,810 posts
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    For general gaming benchmarks i use Heaven, it is very heavy on the GPU thourgh so isnt to compartive with CPU lead games. Also it can make heavy use of tesslation so the artitecture of your graphics card can play a big part, for example the AMD 5xxx series are rubbish at it.

    Settings i use to mimic how i normally play games, AAx4, AFx16, tesslation normal.

    Known as 'Sharzam' in 98.5% of games

  • Roddles 5 Aug 2013 13:48:33 1,815 posts
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    Yeah Unigine's Heaven or Valley is a very good benchmark too. Unfortunately they don't have a database like 3DMark.
  • Buztafen 5 Aug 2013 15:02:57 16,147 posts
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    Not sure about the waiting game...its been 6 years since my last proper upgrade. I mights just do the usual and buy everything at once...then never look at benchmarks or reviews or new hardware releases again...or atleast for another 6 years. :)
  • graysonavich 5 Aug 2013 15:06:03 7,319 posts
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    There will always be something just around the corner that's a little bit better for a price upgrade. Unless there's an entire overhaul of technology, common sense takes over and you buy what you can when you can.

    (Which it sounds like you're going to do)
  • orpheus 6 Aug 2013 00:58:47 1,000 posts
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    K guys maybe one of you can help me with this... bit of a long story but here goes, the story so far:

    Remove old (dying) 600w PSU.
    Install new 620w PSU, ensuring everything that was connected before is now connected. New one is modular; only the right kind of cable fits, i.e. you can't fuck that bit up. Big 20-or-whatever pin was separate 16 + 4 on old psu, new one was all one adapter ie 20 pins or whatever. Other than that no difference.
    Normal windows/browsing operations are fine, but PC starts choking horribly at high load. It will run a high-load game for maybe 4-5 minutes, and then it will hard lock, any sound playing becomes an incomprehensible catastrophe of noise, the screen jaggs and ctl-alt-del and all other attempts to rouse system fail. Power button restart always fails to post, short beeps continuously then stops & resets itself, then beeps again in continual loop.
    Power off at hard button @ rear of tower. Leave system for short period (1 mins or so). Clean POST & start to Windows bar the 'did not close properly error'.

    First time this happened, directly after installing the PSU, turning off XMP seemed to resolve it, and allow xmp to be switched back on. Did so, everything ok for couple of days, including a couple of longish planetside sessions.

    Today I remove 1 RAM (for access) and heatsink. Have been watching temps through all of this and cpu was running @ high 70s full load @ stock clocks on a Megahalem cooler, far too high even in this heat, hence why I was asking in this thread the other day. Cooling is said Megahalem + push/pull fan set up (on on HS, one on rear case). PSU fan pushes down into gap between the two p/p fans.

    Clear & reseat heatsink with brand new arctic silver 5. Reseat RAM & power on.

    5 mins of gaming = bam, we're back to our hard lock again. Quickly restarted, switched XMP off, saved & restarted, turned it back on, saved & restarted = no fix. Now trying no XMP through a full load cycle, which seemed to do it last time.

    Any ideas on what's causing this? It's pretty nasty, and I can't figure it out. I installed the PSU right. The damn thing came with a euro-style kettle lead so I just re-used the old one, but other than that there were no install issues. The PSU does seem hot when it restarts, but I don't know how much since there's no psu temp monitor.

    Could be the fans, maybe, they seem ok. Could be some kind of heat issue in general, psu seems hot on hard lock. Mobo beep codes seem to indicate power failure or failure to detect memory depending on where you read them. Can't see how I'd plug anything in wrong, I reconnected everything just as it was.

    Mobo is a Gigabyte Z77-D3H, which looked respectable enough (at the time). Any thoughts on what's causing this?

    Edited by orpheus at 00:59:21 06-08-2013

    Edited by orpheus at 01:00:20 06-08-2013
  • B0rked_Gamer 6 Aug 2013 01:09:14 2,519 posts
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    Try moving the RAM to different slots, also try different sticks in different slots. Make sure the voltage to the memory isn't too high and check the timings are correct. This appears to be related to the memory but it could be almost anything to be honest. The CPU temps are way too high considering the decent hsf you are using which would perhaps suggest the voltage to the cpu is set too high.
  • Clive_Dunn 6 Aug 2013 03:12:25 4,778 posts
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    Probably memory, run memtest.
  • orpheus 6 Aug 2013 07:15:23 1,000 posts
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    B0rked_Gamer wrote:
    Try moving the RAM to different slots, also try different sticks in different slots. Make sure the voltage to the memory isn't too high and check the timings are correct. This appears to be related to the memory but it could be almost anything to be honest. The CPU temps are way too high considering the decent hsf you are using which would perhaps suggest the voltage to the cpu is set too high.
    It feels like memory, but the temps confuse me... this is @ stock clocks. Even on the shitty stock hsf it should be fine. The mobo itself was set to optimised defaults over the weekend while I was watching the temps, so no chance of the vcore being too high - it's not overclocked!

    Will try swapping the RAM over when I get home. Keep the suggestions coming though!
  • Roddles 6 Aug 2013 07:26:06 1,815 posts
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    Memtest on a boot cd before you do anything.
  • Sharzam 6 Aug 2013 07:33:33 2,810 posts
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    I agree with others it smells like memory related so try some other sticks,  move them around etc. As for your bios you say you changed them to check things, is it possible you can put them back to how it was when the pc was ok? Perhaps full cmos jumper reset.
    After all just replacing the PSU shouldn't warrant changing anything. One last thought you said the old PSU was on its way out that's why you changed it but how did you know that, did you have problems prior to replacing?

    Edit: on the brightside it doesn't sound like you installed the PSU wrong,  as it probably wouldn't boot.

    Edited by Sharzam at 07:38:20 06-08-2013

    Known as 'Sharzam' in 98.5% of games

  • Phattso Moderator 6 Aug 2013 07:35:48 13,253 posts
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    On the 8GB/16GB choice, from what I'm seeing you don't save masses by just sticking to 8GB? Unless we're talking about really basic sticks here?

    Wonder if it's worth it even if only for task switching purposes and OS speedification rather than direct benefit inside games? A 'luxury' if we're being absolute about it, but not too much of a premium compared to stepping up a level in CPU or GPU?

    I know on a work box 8GB is far too tight, even just running some core development applications I hit 7GB without breaking a sweat, and need 12GB to keep a couple of them running, but I guess it could fly on a pure gaming box?

    I've gone for 16GB myself - this is only partially me retroactively justifying that choice. ;)
  • orpheus 6 Aug 2013 07:55:19 1,000 posts
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    @Sharzam

    I put it back to optimised defaults to check the heat against stock clocks. I could full jumper-reset the board but can't see that it would do anything that optimised defaults wouldn't do.

    Old PSU was getting very hot, at the time I assumed due to internal dust etc. Forget now exactly what it was that made me replace it. 99% sure I've installed the new one right, you can't really screw up these new modular ones.

    Oh wait I remember. It was doing the same thing, just powered off mid-game, but without the CMOS beeping on reset. CPU temps were tolerable when this occurred (high 60s) so assumed PSU was gunked and overheating. Its never power-reset mid game before.
  • Buztafen 6 Aug 2013 09:35:45 16,147 posts
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    Phattso wrote:
    On the 8GB/16GB choice, from what I'm seeing you don't save masses by just sticking to 8GB? Unless we're talking about really basic sticks here?

    Wonder if it's worth it even if only for task switching purposes and OS speedification rather than direct benefit inside games? A 'luxury' if we're being absolute about it, but not too much of a premium compared to stepping up a level in CPU or GPU?

    I know on a work box 8GB is far too tight, even just running some core development applications I hit 7GB without breaking a sweat, and need 12GB to keep a couple of them running, but I guess it could fly on a pure gaming box?

    I've gone for 16GB myself - this is only partially me retroactively justifying that choice. ;)
    Damn you Phattso! :)

    See i could probably justify going for 16gb because i saved a nice amount on the case. Plus its not gonna hurt it is it...

    Anywho continuing the geeky/sad benchmarking talk from yesterday, i ran 3D Mark on my current pc last night.

    Q6600 & 560Ti 448 Fire Strike

    Not bad, the old girls still got it! :D

    /adjusts thick rimmed glasses
    /strokes neckbeard

    Edited by Buztafen at 09:44:10 06-08-2013
  • Roddles 6 Aug 2013 09:52:17 1,815 posts
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    8GB is absolutely fine for gaming. I've got 10 Chrome windows open along with Rift, and Task Manager is reporting a mere 4.75GB in use.

    Once again, you really really do not need 16GB for gaming right now. When you do, upgrade then when it is cheaper. If you buy it now that extra 8GB will sit there completely unused.

    16GB is only useful for professional memory applications.

    Edited by Roddles at 09:52:32 06-08-2013
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