What's America's problem? Page 218

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  • Tonka 13 Aug 2017 07:42:40 26,251 posts
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    I've left the "I'm not agreeing with what your saying but I'm willing to die for your right to say it" camp a long time ago.

    I don't think it's ok for Nazis to march. Intolerance is unacceptable.

    https://extranewsfeed.com/tolerance-is-not-a-moral-precept-1af7007d6376
  • jimnastics 13 Aug 2017 07:49:38 1,076 posts
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    I was going to give myself a grade 2 today because I can't be bothered with going to the barbers anymore, but after watching these scenes featuring the buzz-cut mafia I genuinely can't bring myself to do it. This is affecting more people than they realise. I will have to go through the rigmarole of barbershop small-talk for a little while more :(
  • Mola_Ram 13 Aug 2017 08:50:39 16,128 posts
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    Tonka wrote:
    I've left the "I'm not agreeing with what your saying but I'm willing to die for your right to say it" camp a long time ago.

    I don't think it's ok for Nazis to march. Intolerance is unacceptable.
    So, how do you want to stop them?

    Keep in mind that changing laws leaves open the possibility that they'll be used (and abused) by people you don't like. If speech by itself is made illegal, what's to stop someone using those laws to prevent other groups from speaking?

    Edited by Mola_Ram at 08:50:58 13-08-2017
  • Tonka 13 Aug 2017 08:59:23 26,251 posts
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    Yeah, I know it ain't easy and I guess hate speech laws can be abused as well.

    But I think that stopping Nazis, literal fucking Nazis, from marching is feasible.
  • nickthegun 13 Aug 2017 09:05:00 71,635 posts
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    jimnastics wrote:
    I was going to give myself a grade 2 today because I can't be bothered with going to the barbers anymore, but after watching these scenes featuring the buzz-cut mafia I genuinely can't bring myself to do it. This is affecting more people than they realise. I will have to go through the rigmarole of barbershop small-talk for a little while more :(
    I wouldnt worry about it. Its the 'fashy' you have to watch out for. Nearly everyone I know (myself included) has got rid of the 'buzzed at the sides, long on the top' as sported by fuckholes like Richard Spencer because its now the haircut of choice for utter retards.
  • nickthegun 13 Aug 2017 09:12:06 71,635 posts
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    Mola_Ram wrote:
    Tonka wrote:
    I've left the "I'm not agreeing with what your saying but I'm willing to die for your right to say it" camp a long time ago.

    I don't think it's ok for Nazis to march. Intolerance is unacceptable.
    So, how do you want to stop them?

    Keep in mind that changing laws leaves open the possibility that they'll be used (and abused) by people you don't like. If speech by itself is made illegal, what's to stop someone using those laws to prevent other groups from speaking?
    I think its possible to stop them marching but these dickheads are being radicalised online in exactly the same way as the idiots who end up making their way out to syria.

    And the reactions are exactly the same. You arrest Richard Spencer, hes a martyr. You stop them from marching, they are being oppressed. Everything you do to stifle these clowns validates everything they believe.

    Its out there now and its not a quick answer. You have to get parents to watch their teenage boys internet use, you have to teach them that just because they cant get a girlfriend women dont hate them. An entire generation of these shitheads have grown up in a disaffected echo chamber, thinking the world owes them a living.
  • Mola_Ram 13 Aug 2017 09:16:41 16,128 posts
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    Well yeah, that's the other thing. Assuming that you could separate the "literal fucking Nazis" from the less-extreme ones and just ban them from marching, whether that actually addresses the problem is (imo) doubtful. They'd just go underground again.
  • Tonka 13 Aug 2017 09:29:46 26,251 posts
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    In a way I think that the fascists are already gaming the system. Freedom of expression is being abused and intentionally misunderstood.

    Plus all the things nickthegun said about on-line radicalization.

    Some change is needed and it's more than just cracking down on public Nazi marches but that's a good place to start
  • nickthegun 13 Aug 2017 09:31:18 71,635 posts
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    Well, it also goes back to what was being said earlier. Trump has emboldened people who would normally just be talking shit on the red pill to take it into the real world because they see themselves as no longer alone.

    Ordinarily, I would imagine these marches just attract a hardcore of pig fucking rednecks but the events of recent years have encouraged people to leave their basements and get involved.

    With occasionally hilarious results:

    http://metro.co.uk/2017/06/12/alt-right-guy-shouts-but-what-about-the-memes-as-hes-kicked-out-of-rally-6703668/
  • Mola_Ram 13 Aug 2017 09:48:00 16,128 posts
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    Tonka wrote:
    In a way I think that the fascists are already gaming the system. Freedom of expression is being abused and intentionally misunderstood.
    I really don't think it is. They're using freedom of speech to say heinous shit, yes, but that is a feature of free speech, not a bug. You counter it with more speech.

    Defending freedom of speech isn't supposed to be easy. It's supposed to be a test, and it's probably *most* important to support it when people are using it to say stuff like this.

    If you want to use the law (not speech of your own) to smack them down for saying this stuff, fine. But you do it at the risk of degrading something that (imo) is pretty fundamental to Western democracy.
  • Mola_Ram 13 Aug 2017 10:05:11 16,128 posts
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    It's like how people make a (correct) point about terrorist attacks here, in that the danger isn't really in the attacks themselves, but in people panicking and supporting all sorts of shit like the government wiretapping our phones or what have you.

    Again, if you want to stop these guys from marching, fine. But how much are you willing to sacrifice for it? And will that sacrifice be worth it in the end?
  • MrTomFTW Best Moderator, 2016 13 Aug 2017 10:17:13 47,053 posts
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    Freedom of Speech is a great thing, it's a wonderful ideal. However the problem with using speech to counter these people, call them Nazis, White Supremacists, whatever is that their freedom of speech isn't some hypothetical "what if we got rid of the non-whites and Jews?" it's "let's kill all non-whites, Jews, kill the gays, kill the trans, kill anyone that would stop us. Let's do it now. Let's organise, let's hold rallies then let's do it". They don't want to share the position of the white American voice as the defacto voice and the privileges that come with it. And they're going to defend it with force.

    The armed militia aren't out there to have their ideas challenged (in fact I'd say it's probably a bad idea to try), those people injured and killed couldn't debate the driver of the speeding car.

    Furthermore, when it WAS just speech and people tried to challenge it, they got shouted down by people going "Don't be daft, there's no Nazis anymore" or "But both sides..." or "they're just lonely men in their basements" or "they're just fringe nutters". They still are from what I can see out there.
  • MrTomFTW Best Moderator, 2016 13 Aug 2017 10:22:18 47,053 posts
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    Challenge this free speech. Counter with your own free speech.

  • shamblemonkee 13 Aug 2017 10:22:50 17,465 posts
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    https://medium.com/@DaleBeran/4chan-the-skeleton-key-to-the-rise-of-trump-624e7cb798cb
  • Mola_Ram 13 Aug 2017 10:23:15 16,128 posts
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    Tom, you don't have to "debate their ideas". People are perfectly entitled to use their speech to insult or mock, as many have done in response to this. It's probably what I would do. The point is whether or not you use government power to stop it, which is possible but (imo) very problematic.

    Mowing people down with your car is something else entirely, and it's imo a bit disingenuous for you to be conflating the two. That should never ever be protected.

    Edited by Mola_Ram at 10:28:04 13-08-2017
  • MrTomFTW Best Moderator, 2016 13 Aug 2017 10:40:40 47,053 posts
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    Since the Nazis and white nationalists are using their free speech to organise and hold rallies with the purpose of taking power and killing people (by gun, by lynching, by ramming a car into a group of counter-protesters)... What do you think the end result is going to be if you just stand to the side and mock them? You think there will be less fatalities? Are they going to go "oh shit lads they're laughing, the whole taking over the country thing is off"?

    Not that I think the American government would do shit anyway. I mean, they've got their guys in the White House, and Republicans have been introducing bills to reduce the penalties for hitting protesters with your car.

    Edited by MrTomFTW at 10:44:21 13-08-2017
  • BigOrkWaaagh 13 Aug 2017 10:45:06 6,542 posts
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    So what's your solution?
  • glo 13 Aug 2017 10:58:44 3,561 posts
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    BigOrkWaaagh wrote:
    So what's your solution?
    I say let's take off and nuke the site from orbit. It's the only way to be sure...

    ☺️
  • MrTomFTW Best Moderator, 2016 13 Aug 2017 10:59:16 47,053 posts
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    Well that's the really difficult bit isn't it? If it were only that simple as to be summed up in a forum post.

    I'll tell you what the solution ISN'T though - mewling about how not protecting their freedom of speech is problematic and undermines western democracy, because once they get to this point - the rallies etc. Nazi speech is accompanied by Nazi actions
  • MrTomFTW Best Moderator, 2016 13 Aug 2017 11:05:33 47,053 posts
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    glo wrote:
    BigOrkWaaagh wrote:
    So what's your solution?
    I say let's take off and nuke the site from orbit. It's the only way to be sure...

    ☺️
    These days I'm worried that will actually happen
  • Rodney 13 Aug 2017 11:11:29 3,247 posts
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    I think free speech has to be within certain parameters, hate speech should be allowed (and countered with reason and criticism), but it's a bit like the old should we tolerate intolerance conundrum.

    Maybe free speech only really works when there's a certain level of social cohesion and civility - which is obviously lacking in the US at the moment.

    If a fascist political ideology antithetical to free speech is propogating via the exercise of free speech - and under the protection of free speech - is it legitimate to deny free speech to that ideology?

    Maybe, but that's a dangerous law to have on the books. What would Trump do if he had hate speech laws to use against his critics?

    I'm inclined to think the removal of fee speech poses a greater risk than the recent rise in fascism, but recent events have made me less confident in this position.
  • Rodney 13 Aug 2017 11:26:04 3,247 posts
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    This might be opening a can of worms, but to those who think white supremacist/fascism should t be protected by free speach laws, would you apply the same standards to Islamism?

    Is the tipping point maybe whether the fascist ideology is a credible political movement?

    When the neo nazis were rarely seen outside of a Louis Theroux episode, it was easy to tolerate them as a whacky (if hateful) fringe group - equivalent to the the West Bro Baptists.. But when they organise mass protests/riots, and seemingly have tacit support, or at least ambivalence, at the highest political level, its a bit harder to tolerate in the name of free speech.

    They are definitely testing my personal commitment to free speech.
  • MrTomFTW Best Moderator, 2016 13 Aug 2017 11:33:12 47,053 posts
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    It's not like freedom of speech isn't already being suppressed in America already, sadly. People may have the right to speech, but putting ur info practise is more difficult. Compared the police response to this rally with the response in Ferguson, to BLM rallies, to the protests over that pipeline...
  • DrStrangelove 13 Aug 2017 12:36:00 11,013 posts
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    We have hate speech laws in Germany as well as a ban on nazi imagery, and I don't see these laws abused--if anything, it's not enforced consistently. In fact the far right complains about being socially and politically ostracised for voicing their opinions, not about being prosecuted. They see free speech threatened by social stigma, not by law.

    Applied or not, I'm all for having these laws. The point is that it is made clear that inciting hatred or doing nazi salutes isn't the same as voicing any other opinion--it's not ok, it's a criminal act. The country they claim to honour condemns their acts and may punish them.

    Of course this has to be seen in historical context, but if anything that reinforces my stance. After seizing power, Goebbels publicly derided the democrats for being so stupid to give the nazis free speech.
  • DrStrangelove 13 Aug 2017 12:41:33 11,013 posts
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    Rodney wrote:
    This might be opening a can of worms, but to those who think white supremacist/fascism should t be protected by free speach laws, would you apply the same standards to Islamism?
    If they incite hatred or violence, the same rules should apply.
  • reddevil93 13 Aug 2017 13:03:13 13,714 posts
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    Do you reckon a bunch of black or brown people could turn up to a park with assault rifles hurling hateful abuse about?
  • abumarkey 13 Aug 2017 14:47:08 13 posts
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    America’s problem?

    Disfranchisement, or the feeling of it. People feel it's not about them anymore, that they don’t belong anymore. History may prove otherwise for the white population, but history is just one factor. Have you noticed radicalisation happens very often after an economic crisis? In the 1920’s, Germany had been an economic disaster—sky high inflation, no jobs, war damages. People who couldn’t manage are prone to suffer from a besieged syndrome, and there was a lot of them in the country. That may sound antagonising, but hear me out. There happened to be a group of people who used that to get in power—we know who. They spoke of restoring dignity, lest the people felt the dignity was lost. They knew how to circumvent common sense to get the grip on power. Pretend to be the people’s friend, show them who is responsible for their pain.

    Then, there was the 2008 crysis. Of course, that was a decade ago, and there’s recovery, but feelings don’t go away easily—and there as well are people who’ll use that. That’s one factor.

    Another is how we raise our children. Some people are close-minded, because that’s how they were raised, that’s what they learnt because they wanted to be edgy (and therefore cool). Or they suffered, this way or another—it could have been an economic crisis, or abuse. Their bullies might have been black people; their parents, friends or partners might’ve died in a terrorist attack. They didn’t know how to cope and stayed that way—prejudiced. They pass it on to their kids.

    Hate comes from pain.

    “If you repeat a lie a thousand times, it becomes truth.” What Lenin said is very true. Propaganda does wonders. People are tought to hate by the cynics in power, or those who want that power, or it’s their inability to cope with their bad experiences. I know I struggled a lot with my unluck in love and bullying (there were a number of girls in my life who did indeed treat me badly—one spread rumors on me that I relentlessly harass her, one flat out accused me of raping children, and disrespected me regularly. From them I found out I’d done all of that, because, in fact, I was innocent). I began to resent women, I felt they were against me, that rejecting me was indeed bullying. I feared feminism, I thought places with progressive policies favoured the other sex. What a stereotypical neckbeard is about. I managed to put that behind me, but it took a lot of introspection. Not everyone is capable of that, at least not on their own.

    Some people can’t indeed be reasoned with, but I feel there’s no use antagonising them any further. To cynically say, don’t give them an argument against you. For every person spewing hate, there should be ten who use reason and empathy to interact with them.

    edited grammar and clarity

    Edited by abumarkey at 16:53:13 13-08-2017
  • RichieTenenbaum 13 Aug 2017 15:20:49 2,679 posts
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    It's all very difficult. You can stop them marching, but then we don't want the government clamping down on marches for fair wages etc.

    The alt right people remind me so much of ISIS people. I bet they'd have a lot in common and get on. Mostly they'd complain about being single.

    I think the problem is that a lot of the time that the president etc set the agenda more than they think. Trump whipping up racial resentments leads directly to this. His lean into the worst of his party has created an atmosphere where this stuff is ok. His call for people to respect each other was amazingly non self aware.

    I've seen a lot of comments like 'we're better than this' or 'this isn't america' from politicians. No you're not and yes it is. ignoring the systematic reasons why these things happen and treating them all as one off incidents is why this keeps happening!
  • RichieTenenbaum 13 Aug 2017 15:22:28 2,679 posts
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    DrStrangelove wrote:
    We have hate speech laws in Germany as well as a ban on nazi imagery, and I don't see these laws abused--if anything, it's not enforced consistently. In fact the far right complains about being socially and politically ostracised for voicing their opinions, not about being prosecuted. They see free speech threatened by social stigma, not by law.

    Applied or not, I'm all for having these laws. The point is that it is made clear that inciting hatred or doing nazi salutes isn't the same as voicing any other opinion--it's not ok, it's a criminal act. The country they claim to honour condemns their acts and may punish them.

    Of course this has to be seen in historical context, but if anything that reinforces my stance. After seizing power, Goebbels publicly derided the democrats for being so stupid to give the nazis free speech.
    I agree with all of this
  • Mola_Ram 13 Aug 2017 15:51:49 16,128 posts
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    What works for Germany, works for Germany. Maybe they have different views on these things, and that's fine. But I'd be very hesitant to support laws like that in my country.
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