PSP piracy levels are "sickening" - Sony

By Robert Purchese Published 22 April, 2009

Losing "big chunk" of business.

Sony America marketeer Peter Dille has called PSP game piracy "sickening" and believes it to be taking a "big chunk" of his business.

"I'm convinced and we're convinced that piracy has taken out a big chunk of our software sales on PSP," Dille told Gamasutra.

"It's been a problem that the industry has to address together; it's one that I think the industry takes very seriously, but we need to do something to address this because it's criminal what's going on, quite frankly.

"It's not good for us, but it's not good for the development community," he added. "We can look at data from BitTorrent sites from the day Resistance: Retribution goes on sale and see how many copies are being downloaded illegally, and it's frankly sickening."

Dille said that around 50 million potential game-sales may have walked the plank, and that the piracy-tackling capabilities of older hardware may be a problem.

But ultimately he reckons we're all pretty honest, and that the problem is solvable and the future bright for the PSP.

"I'm not naive, but I do think that most people are inherently honest," said Dille. "We learned a lot from the music business, and it became so easy and so common to download illegal music - everyone was doing it. It's almost like people lost sight with the fact that, well, 'If everyone's doing it, then it can't be that bad.'

"But, it actually is bad; it's bad for the platform. Again, I'm not saying that that's a magic wand; I think that we have to make sure from a technological perspective that it's not as easy as it is to do that."

Dille and Sony aim to boost PSP sales with a string of big-name titles this year, such as Assassin's Creed, MotorStorm and LittleBigPlanet. Such support wasn't always the case, however (a point echoed recently by UK boss Ray Maguire), as Dille admitted third-party developers were once "just about ready to jump off the cliff and pull support for the platform".

But both the PSP and DS will be under pressure this year from new challenger the iPhone, which EA founder Trip Hawkins reckons has Sony and Nintendo "freaking out". And he's not the only one backing Apple's chances.

Picture of Robert.

About Robert Purchese

Bertie is Eurogamer's Senior Staff Writer. When he's not hunting down news stories he's often found playing with his kids or gabbling about fantasy games and strange online worlds.

Read more articles from Robert by visiting the Robert Purchese archive page.

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Comments (235) Latest comment 3 years ago

Comments threads automatically close after 30 days, but please feel free to continue chatting on the forum!

  • jonsaan #1 3 years ago

    I love my PSP and it's legit. They need to sort out the pricing on the store though. Endwar is 39.99!!!! it is 9.99 in GAME.

  • LowEnergyCycle #2 3 years ago

    So I presume the next PSP will use a digital download system like iPhone then.

  • jonsaan #3 3 years ago

    The current one already does.

  • Spooke #4 3 years ago

    Make buying your products cheaper and easier than pirating.

    They have to remember that they developed the UMD to force another format on us that they thought would bring them massive cash from movie studios. This wasn't a consumer led development, it was a greed led development.

    The fact that the iTunes app store is doing do well illustrates that if you price your media sensibly and make it simple to download and use people will pay for it.

    iPhone games are on average a fifth of the price of the PSP games. If Sony were to launch an app store for the PSP2 and halve the price of the games people would buy them.

    But of course they won't because they are greedy. So piracy will prevail.

  • lcmnick #5 3 years ago

    Come on, you can't compare iPhone games to fully fledged PSP games.

    That's a ludicrous comparison.

  • Spooke #6 3 years ago

    mostly yes I agree but Rolando? That's every bit as good as a full price psp game.

  • Zomoniac #7 3 years ago

    Come on, you can't compare iPhone games to fully fledged PSP games.

    /Plays Rolando

    /Plays LocoRoco

    /Compares

  • GamesConnoisseur #8 3 years ago

    Seconded Spooke

    Iphone/flash games app are different league entirely to the full fledged PSP games

    Costs need to come down agreed and digitial download is the way to go, HOWEVER there is NO excuse for piracy EVER! I mean saying '"cos its expensive and that why I pirated games'" is just stealing money from the hard working dev communities!

    50 millions or so download of Resistance: Retribution is shocking really! Compared to how much sales actually were done!
    Edited by 1 at 22/04/09 @ 11:15

  • HermitArcader #9 3 years ago

    Post deleted at 09:17:39 22-12-2011

  • Ryze #10 3 years ago

    Oh do fuck off, Sony. I have an issue of GamesTM where Krazy Ken was sayign that the PSP would be impossible to hack due to the advanced techniques being used t protect it.

    What happened to both that, and Gran Turismo Mobile??????

    ??????


    ?????

    Sony?????
    ????

    Cocks.

  • Doctor_What #11 3 years ago

    The second hand market probably hurts them more... But yes, piracy does need to be tackled.

  • coastal #12 3 years ago

    I second the comments on UMDs. If i were to buy a psp game now i'd take it home, rip to my pc and then transfer it back to the psp - just so i can play it without that damn UMD whirring, clicking and general draining of batteries.

  • mingster #13 3 years ago

    This is bull.
    The Ds suffers just as bad if not worse for piracy.
    You can pirate DS games with no knowlegde of how to do it just buy a cart wih games pre-installed.
    Newer PSP's are hard to crack. Can't just download games and play.
    When you look at the amount of times a PSP new game is donladed from a torrent site and compare it to a similar level DS game.
    The DS games are downloaded over 4x as much.
    The PSP suffers from no exposure in game stores.
    They have virtually no shelf space dedicated to PSP games this is why they don't sell much.

  • Rev.StuartCampbell #14 3 years ago

    PSP games don't sell because nobody wants them. It's got nothing to do with piracy.

    http://ww w.guardian.co.uk/music/2009/apr...

  • the_mtfr #15 3 years ago

    What a load of bullshit, the pirating is almost entirely parallel to the sales. If you stop the pirating flow you don't "redirect" those poor lost sheep to the game shop, because that's why they're pirating in the first place: they just don't want to buy those games. Instead they will just do something else.

    Insted they could lower the price of the PSP games, they're ridiculous. Oh and the games could be more fun too, a lot of them are puke. They should learn from Stardust Portable, that fits perfectly to portable gaming.
    Edited by 1 at 22/04/09 @ 11:36

  • LazyDan #16 3 years ago

    I just hope the bellends in charge of their stats and sales haven't looked at the number of downloads from BitTorrent sites and said that it must equal the amount of lost sales. That is not the case. Just because someone has pirated a game does not mean they would've ever spent money on it, or even intend to play the pirated copy sometimes.

    Before the R4, 'my mate' had a DS for 2 years and only had 3 games. Now 'my mate' has considerably more. Without the R4 'my mate' would probably have 5, maybe 6 by now.

  • JahB #17 3 years ago

    Before the R4, 'my mate' had a DS for 2 years and only had 3 games. Now 'my mate' has considerably more. Without the R4 'my mate' would probably have 5, maybe 6 by now.

    well then the industry lost 2, maybe 3 sales on "your mate". put it any way you want to, pirating games is no different than stealing them from a shop.

    that people download games that they wouldn't have bought otherwise is a flawed argument too, because once you start downloading games, chances are you're not gonna buy a legit one ever again.
    Edited by 1 at 22/04/09 @ 11:39

  • Spooke #18 3 years ago

    instead of moaning and whining they should be thinking of ways to add value to people who buy the games.

    with an app store it is easy to track what people are buying and reward them with additional content/ prizes/ competitions/ exclusive access to events.

    You have to give people a reason to stay honest because if you are given the choice of free and easy or expensive and inconvenient bits of plastic what are most people going to do?

  • JHuxley #19 3 years ago

    @Zomoniac

    /Plays God of War: Chains of Olympus

    /Plays...

    Oh. This doesn't really work very well, does it?

    I'm not saying the PSP has an amazing catalogue of games, but it's certainly built up over the past few years and there are plenty of games worth playing.

  • NotSoSlim #20 3 years ago

    Next PSP to be download only...thats the only way to really stop it imo

  • Moonprince #21 3 years ago

    "But of course they won't because they are greedy. So piracy will prevail. "

    lol. I see what you don't see what you did there... wat?

  • miiiguel #22 3 years ago

    "Before the R4, 'my mate' had a DS for 2 years and only had 3 games. Now 'my mate' has considerably more. Without the R4 'my mate' would probably have"

    Hey Ferrari I don't really like your cars, they're too flashy, I would never buy one! Can I have one now? Make it a F50, please.
    Edited by 1 at 22/04/09 @ 11:43

  • Dizzy #23 3 years ago

    Would people buy PSP if they couldn't pirate? I have seen colleagues at work buying 0 games for their kid's PSP.

  • Eraysor #24 3 years ago

    I bought Wipeout Pure and Lumines when the PSP came out. Every other game I have bought (with the exception of Wipeout Pulse) has been a pile of crap that I've traded in soon after. I only use my PSP to play those three games, Quake, and old Megadrive games.

  • Amazing Bryan #25 3 years ago

    The games are so bad, they're not even worth downloading. I've listened to more music on my PSP than games played.

    Easier to blame the pirates, then admit you're getting your ass handed to you by Nintendo.

  • trubadman #26 3 years ago

    Make buying your products cheaper and easier than pirating.

    They have to remember that they developed the UMD to force another format on us that they thought would bring them massive cash from movie studios. This wasn't a consumer led development, it was a greed led development.

    The fact that the iTunes app store is doing do well illustrates that if you price your media sensibly and make it simple to download and use people will pay for it.

    iPhone games are on average a fifth of the price of the PSP games. If Sony were to launch an app store for the PSP2 and halve the price of the games people would buy them.

    But of course they won't because they are greedy. So piracy will prevail.


    I have iphone games and PSP games, and some of the PSP game ii have e.g. GTA are as good if not better than a lot of PS2 games. Now, lets take crash kart, £3.., gta £15, GTA is worth that amount of money. PSP games are on another level compared to iphone games, the only way PSP games, could be brought down to iphone game prices, is to give us rubbish 2d side scrollers, and random games like tetris. This is not a price problem, it is an ease of hacking the system. If PS3 games were easy to donwload illegally and play, many people would do it same goes for many other consoles.

    Itunes has 'acceptable' prices, if that's what you call it and many people appreciate that. I still know way too many people who have jailbroken iphones, ipods etc, for them it's not about the price, because they can afford it. Their attitude is 'why pay when you can get something for free? Hence, they just download, all their music, movies, tv shows, games, apps for free when possible.

    Also, it has nothing to do with UMD. Yeah, they gave us UMD, but what's the problem, do we illegally download games because we don't like the format??

  • miiiguel #27 3 years ago

    You gotta love the new reasons found by pirates to steal - music; games; movies suck, therefor we steal. But..., if it sucks why steal? I don't get it.

  • kipper #28 3 years ago

    The piracy problem is partly due to the target audience of handhelds compared to consoles, I think.

    I own a Xbox360 and have 8 games, all legal.

    The household of a family member has I think 3 GBAs, 2 PSPs, 5 DSs all with loads of pirate software and nothing legal.

    So it looks like 'hardcore gamers' buy legal, and 'casuals' use pirate software.

  • mcbi4kh2 #29 3 years ago

    @miiguel
    Perhaps beacuse they don't know it 'sucks' before they 'steal'?
    Edited by 1 at 22/04/09 @ 11:54

  • Rev.StuartCampbell #30 3 years ago

    I only read these threads because they're such a good way of filtering out complete cretins. Anyone who says "ZOMG PIRACY IS TEH SAME AS STEALING AND THAT'S A FACT!!!!" can be safely added to the Ignore list without fear that you're ever going to miss an intelligent comment on any other thread, because it's absolutely certain proof that the person is a bona fide dribbling retard with the brains of day-old dog vomit. It makes using EG a much more pleasant experience.

  • kendoji #31 3 years ago

    I didn't know you could crack the PSP!

    /buys one

  • crispyduckman #32 3 years ago

    The industry likes to infer that piracy and sales volumes are inversely proportional. In truth though, they are directly proportional. The games that are pirated most also sell the most. Of course, that doesn't mean there's a connection - you can't assume that increasing piracy would increase sales. I just think it's an interesting statistical observation.

  • miiiguel #33 3 years ago

    @mcbi4kh2: Yeah right, it's a demo thing (heard that before too), and if they like they will rush to the next whisky bar, and buy it. Yeah!
    Edited by 1 at 22/04/09 @ 11:59

  • penhalion #34 3 years ago

    I doubt digital download will even slow the pirates down. I have an app store app that has had a fair number of downloads and sales but, the sales are roughly 2 thirds the number of actual users. The torrent sites account for the remaining third!

    If anything it seems to have made it easier as there is simply no physical product to crack in the first place.

    I'm not convinced that those people torrenting my app will have bought it anyway so I can't justify saying that they are lost sales. In fact I dare say a few of these people will actually buy legit copies of the app in order to get the updates if they find they like and use it.

  • jaxon58 #35 3 years ago

    You wouldn't shoot a policeman, steal his helmet, shit in his helmet, send it to the policeman's widow then steal it from her. WOULD YOU?

  • LazyDan #36 3 years ago

    @miiguel, I didn't say it was right, I was pointing out that it was not the great catastrophe than BitTorrent numbers taken as 1 download = 1 lost sale will make it appear, and presenting it as such is misleading.

    Also your Ferrari analogy doesn't work. If I stole a Ferrari that would be one less Ferrari they have to sell, meaning they've lost ALL the money they put into creating that car - it's a physical and very tangible loss.

    Downloading makes a copy, directly costing nothing for anyone involved, besides the vague notion of "that person might've bought it." A stolen car is a quantifiable loss to Ferrari, a game downloaded is not an instantly quantifiable loss to the developer -AGAIN, I'm not saying it's right, and in a lot of cases someone will indeed download and then never purchase. I'm just putting it into perspective.

    Who's to say that someone downloading a game isn't just trying it, and that in trying it they confirm it's a valuable purchase and then go out to buy it? What if they love it but don't buy it, then recommend it to all their friends - who all pay legitimately. Piracy with regards to games doesn't mean a 100% loss all of the time.

  • Trinod #37 3 years ago

    Pirates are greedy
    Industry is greedy

    hell, everyone is greedy ...even the banks or so i hear...

  • LazyDan #38 3 years ago

    It's also worth remembering that the R4 is everywhere - I know mums that have been kitted out with them. Nintendo don't seem to be doing too badly with the DS though, do they? And if you go into HMV you can clearly see how afraid developers are to produce content for it with the one or two DS games you see on shelves...

    AGAIN, it's not right, but it's not the industry killer it's been touted as since the Spectrum. Sony are just making excuses here.

  • stepneg #39 3 years ago

    I have a PSP with custom firmware and use it to mainly play emulatrors and PS1 games I have put on their myself. I could download PSP games but in all honesty the majority of them are shite and take up too much space. Make the games better and cheaper then you might sell a few more.

  • Grom #40 3 years ago

    I suppose then Stuart you'll be under the increasingly blissful illusion that everyone agrees with you, even if that's not an accurate representation of reality.

    DRM and the pricing of games is stupid, but people take it personally when their stuff is stolen/copied/used in a way that costs them money and sometimes the reaction is perhaps a little extreme.

    I'm sure you don't know anything about that though, it's not like you're a content creator who makes stuff that is then reproduced without your permission in a way which arguably doesn't cost you any money (but which in principle and law is wrong), and who then resorts to extreme legal means to try and get their imaginary money back... OR IS IT????

    Perhaps to you it's somehow different when it's The Man stealing stuff rather than some spunky Swedish youngster?

  • IneptPercy #41 3 years ago

    Personnally, I look at the PSP and know I could pirate and therefore only need to pay for the console+memory card if I wished. But I still don't see it as a good deal.

    So there is your problem, if people don't see it as good value when you pirate there is no chance of them ever paying.

  • Ignatius_Cheese #42 3 years ago

    The quicker handheld consoles and their home console brethren develop a viable system of digital distribution, complete with demos/trials, comparable to Steam etc., the quicker this problem disappears.

    Clearly that's where all media content is eventually going and, assuming the cost aspect of it is encouraging to the consumer, then it will be lapped up in the same way that content on iTunes is.

  • Rev.StuartCampbell #43 3 years ago

    "I suppose then Stuart you'll be under the increasingly blissful illusion that everyone agrees with you,"

    HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

    Thanks, love. That one'll keep me smiling all day.

  • Vistrix #44 3 years ago

    I bought a PSP specifically to play my old PSOne and other emulated games on.

    Sony doesnt mention how an open console benefits them.
    Edited by 1 at 22/04/09 @ 12:21

  • Rev.StuartCampbell #45 3 years ago

    "Also, it has nothing to do with UMD. Yeah, they gave us UMD, but what's the problem, do we illegally download games because we don't like the format??"

    Um, yes, a lot of people do exactly that. Games on memory stick are far more convenient to use than UMDs, and oddly people can be resistant to paying a lot more money for an inferior product/experience. Weird, eh?

  • miiiguel #46 3 years ago

    @ Lazy: The Ferrari analogy was an answer to yet another poor excuse to piracy. There are no easy excuses for it.
    "wouldn't buy it anyway" - I have lot's of things I wouldn't buy it "anyway".
    "it sucks" - I don't usualy go after things I don't like.
    "I'm poor, I'm entitled to it" - Vote for a new law where you can show you minimum wage IRS in any entertaiment store and have a big discount for poor people.

    Anyway it's my opinion. I see in a daily basis people who work with me - and many of them earn more than I do - pirate everything and bragging that they never ever buy any music; movies or games. Fact is, it's not fancy principles, people like free, principle-free.

    Oh and Rev is looking for a kinky dialog. Indulge, plz.
    Edited by 1 at 22/04/09 @ 12:23

  • Grom #47 3 years ago

    Stuart - on the chance you haven't ignored me yet :)

    Why did you find it unfair when Future 'stole' or illegally reproduced your work, even though arguably the monetary loss to you was slight, and why did you resort to legal means to get your money back? Why can you not appreciate that individuals or corporations may have similar motives when people 'steal' or illegally reproduce their work - illegal based on law rather than a contract, but still illegal - and may want to take steps to stop it happening or gain compensation?

    BTW I am sorry you lost, it did sound like you were shafted by the courts.

  • Chufty #48 3 years ago

    Without reading through these comments, all your arguments about piracy not affecting sales because 'I would never have bought the game in the first place' are ridiculous and invalid. Shut up and start paying for products you're using, you immoral criminal scum.

    One day you'll have a job, in a business, ie an organisation that sells products or services. I hope said products and services are stolen on a massive scale to such an extent that you lose your job and livelihood from it.

  • Thalanos #49 3 years ago

    Nice arguments.

    You can argue about price all you like, but some pirates can afford to buy games, they just don't because a free option exists. If the option didn't exist they would complain about the price but they would still buy games because they are gamers at heart.

    Making games cheaper to increase the value for money does not seem to work. Just look at the cheapness and amazing value of World of Goo and the ludicrous piracy figures associated with it.

    It's not the fault of the developers and publishers Spooke (like the pirates tell you, pretending to have purely altruistic intentions), they're just following the same business model they have for years. You're right that they do need to fix the problem though, and since we can never stop piracy, they just need to change the way they work to accommodate it. Application stores at your fingertip's and one-click purchasing look like the likely way forward.
    Edited by 1 at 22/04/09 @ 12:36

  • skillian #50 3 years ago

    One day you'll have a job, in a business, ie an organisation that sells products or services. I hope said products and services are stolen on a massive scale to such an extent that you lose your job and livelihood from it.

    Lots of people are already at risk of losing their jobs and livelihoods, mostly because of the actions of bankers who earn 1000% more maoney than them. Don't think that's going to stop them downloading last night's episode of 24.

  • JahB #51 3 years ago

    I only read these threads because they're such a good way of filtering out complete cretins. Anyone who says "ZOMG PIRACY IS TEH SAME AS STEALING AND THAT'S A FACT!!!!" can be safely added to the Ignore list without fear that you're ever going to miss an intelligent comment on any other thread, because it's absolutely certain proof that the person is a bona fide dribbling retard with the brains of day-old dog vomit. It makes using EG a much more pleasant experience.

    so you're saying piracy isn't stealing? somebody put lots of money and effort into a prodcut, that then goes on sale. if you then go and get that product for free (how you go about it doesn't really matter) it means you're obtaining it by illegal means, without paying the money that you OWE. that's the very definition of stealing.

    i find it funny how the entire industry agrees that piracy is a huge problem, but retarded teenage pirates on message boards still think they know better.

  • YobRenoops #52 3 years ago

    I agree that piracy really is the same as stealing.

    What you find in these kind of discussions is that those people who will vehemently disagree with it are those that are pirating. And I accuse those who say "I only use it to play old SNES games" because then your stealing the SNES games.

    I understand that CFW can unlock functionality in a product (here the PSP) which would be great to have in the normal world. Unfortunately, the majority of times it is use to pirate in one form or another. And I say this as the owner of an R4. I have a developer friend and when he saw I had an R4 he was "disappointed" to say the least. This made me actually feel bad because I thought, I might actually be reducing the amount of money in his pocket.

  • Schiraman #53 3 years ago

    Yeah, the problem with the PSP isn't piracy, it's the lack of decent games - and that's not something that's come about as a result of piracy, it's been that way from the start. The PSP has some serious design flaws (UMD, lack of second analogue stick, etc.) which have hurt it a lot, and generally seems to suffer from the same kind of developer indifference as the PS3 - although whether that's down to the hardware, the marketing or just Sony's attitude in general is hard to guess.

    Oddly enough though I sometimes think the biggest problem with the PSP is that it's too powerful and too similar to the PS2. As a result developers have almost exclusively attempted to produce shovelware ports of PS2 games for it, and focussed on things like 3d action games instead of more traditional handheld genres like platformers, RPGs and tactical battle games.

  • miiiguel #54 3 years ago

    "Lots of people are already at risk of losing their jobs and livelihoods, mostly because of the actions of bankers who earn 1000% more maoney than them. Don't think that's going to stop them downloading last night's episode of 24."

    Weird. It's almost like someone yesterday who got confused when I made a strong comment at lunch against Islam fundamentalists. The dude said "wow, wasn't expecting that, I thought you weren't a supporter of Iraq's invasion". The wrongs aren't always in the same side.

  • YobRenoops #55 3 years ago

    People use the reason that they're using functionality that "should have been there in the first place" as a excuse for why they do it.

    Unfortunately we cannot know why, when the PSP was being designed, Sony took the design choices they did. Looking back with hindsight is very easy to do in a future where we're moving towards a download distribution system for handhelds, however it obviously didn't appear to be the case in 2003.

    You don't have a divine right to demos (a good excuse for pirating as well), extra functionality, cheaper games, easy portability. As a consumer you should request that with the platform holder, instead of going around and stealing.

    Too much of an I want, I should have culture!

  • skillian #56 3 years ago

    Please let's not have the "piracy does or doesn't equal stealing" argument again.

    And just because someone think copyright theft fits the legal definition of stealing doesn't mean they are a retarded teenage pirate. I think pretty much everyone has realised by now that not everyone sits on one of the extreme edges of this argument.

  • YobRenoops #57 3 years ago

    @skillian

    I agree, however its the righteousness of those that engage in the pirating thats the most frustrating. People go on about what they want, and deserve and the anonymity of the internet just aids that. I'd love to see one of the pro-pirating/cfws put their views to actually developers.

  • des #58 3 years ago

    Too bad that there is no piracy on PS3,Sony would just blame piracy for its under-performing...
    PS2 was pirated like crazy,but software sales where good...

    If they want to find who sabotaged PSP game sales in the West,they should just look in the mirror.

    Sony gimped PSP,two major things

    1.Controls
    2.UMD

    First point is the most important,one analog stick...effectively gimping biggest game genres in the West.

    But hey DD is the solution...until someone hacks that



  • kangarootoo #59 3 years ago

    "Come on, you can't compare iPhone games to fully fledged PSP games.

    That's a ludicrous comparison."

    Comparising the gameplay is irrelevant when the discussion is about securing data delivery.

  • Rev.StuartCampbell #60 3 years ago

    "Why did you find it unfair when Future 'stole' or illegally reproduced your work, even though arguably the monetary loss to you was slight, and why did you resort to legal means to get your money back?"

    Several things here.

    (1) They were doing it for profit, which most pirates/torrent sites aren't.

    (2) I've never said piracy isn't wrong or illegal, merely pointed out that all the actual evidence that's available suggests it does the industry far more good than harm overall. The Guardian piece I've already linked to in this thread is just one of a hundred examples. All the dolts whining on about how much it "costs" the industry are only looking at one side of the story, so it's no wonder they come to moronically stupid conclusions.

    (3) While I might want any number of laws changed, for so long as they're still in place and other people are going to use them to their advantage, I will too.
    Edited by 1 at 22/04/09 @ 19:47

  • YobRenoops #61 3 years ago

    @des

    Thats your opinion about it but obviously Sony had their reasons for doing that. I'm not saying right or wrong but your little analysis doesn't really have any evidence.

    Again, this doesn't give you an excuse to do what you like.

    "Hang on I disagree with there being no spoiler on a corsa. OK I'll just steal one then..."

  • kangarootoo #62 3 years ago

    @Rev. Stuart Campbell

    What on earth did your link have to do with PSP games?

    Regardless, the findings of the study cited in the article are feeble.

    So people who download music are more likely to buy music than those who don't download music? Did it occur to the study moderators that people who download music might be MORE INTERESTED in consuming music than those who don't?

    It should be no surprise to anyone that people who aren't that interested in consuming new music don't buy a lot of new music.

  • Rev.StuartCampbell #63 3 years ago

    "that's the very definition of stealing. "

    Your dictionary is broken, shit-for-brains.

  • SliderNL #64 3 years ago

    Piracy is definitely killing the PSP, but it's not the only nail in the coffin, lack of good titles, UMD, problems with battery, high development costs for PSP-titles. The high price point, The earlier marketing which claimed that the PSP was everything but a gamesmachine. The forced link with the PS3, lack of a good downloadable game store.

    The fundamental problem is the essence of the PlayStation Portable it is in fact a Portable PlayStation 1,5 with poorer controls.

    That is fine in Japan, where people are traveling a lot, and really enjoy portable entertainment. In Europe we game a lot more at home. You can make great games for the PSP, but are they handheld games? Titles I can play for 5 minutes and feel satisfied or are they portable versions of games which are better suitable on home consoles? For a big chunk of games the latter is the case.

  • kangarootoo #65 3 years ago

    @LazyDan

    So without piracy, your mate would have bought 2 more games.

    And this defends piracy how?

  • Schiraman #66 3 years ago

    Oh, and please stop with the piracy = stealing bullshit now. They're not the same and it doesn't take a genius to spot the difference: when you steal something the person you stole it from no longer has it, when you pirate something they still do. I'm not saying it's not a crime, but it a very different crime and clearly nothing like as serious. I mean if someone wants to make an illegal copy of my TV or my PC, for example, that's completely fine by me - but I would be upset if someone stole them. ;)

    Also number of illegal downloads does not equal number of sales lost. Sure, some amount of sales are lost - but fuck knows how many - we don't know and neither does the industry. And there are even times when piracy is arguably good for sales, sooner or later at least. Plenty of people who pirate things would never have bought the product regardless and thus would never even have taken a second look at it except for piracy - after enjoying the pirated version there's a chance they might buy it for real, or buy the sequel when that comes out, or just generate good buzz for the product by telling their friends how good it is. I've seen all of these things happen, so I'm not just talking out of my arse here.

    The bottom line is that piracy is an incredibly complex issue, it's not black and white, and it's not stealing. What actual effect is does have on the market is nearly impossible to measure, and anyone who says they know for sure is talking shit.

  • kangarootoo #67 3 years ago

    ""I suppose then Stuart you'll be under the increasingly blissful illusion that everyone agrees with you,"

    HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

    Thanks, love. That one'll keep me smiling all day."


    How old are you?

  • YobRenoops #68 3 years ago

    @Schiraman

    Is piracy right or wrong then? To you?

  • kangarootoo #69 3 years ago

    ""that's the very definition of stealing. "

    Your dictionary is broken, shit-for-brains. "



    Oh dear. Seems sombebody's dictionary and maturity are both broken.

    See point 2 in particular, and maybe try and respond like a full grown adult instead of just calling people names.


    1. to take (the property of another or others) without permission or right, esp. secretly or by force: A pickpocket stole his watch.
    2. to appropriate (ideas, credit, words, etc.) without right or acknowledgment.
    3. to take, get, or win insidiously, surreptitiously, subtly, or by chance: He stole my girlfriend.
    4. to move, bring, convey, or put secretly or quietly; smuggle (usually fol. by away, from, in, into, etc.): They stole the bicycle into the bedroom to surprise the child.
    5. Baseball. (of a base runner) to gain (a base) without the help of a walk or batted ball, as by running to it during the delivery of a pitch.
    6. Games. to gain (a point, advantage, etc.) by strategy, chance, or luck.
    7. to gain or seize more than one's share of attention in, as by giving a superior performance: The comedian stole the show.

  • kangarootoo #70 3 years ago

    @Schiraman

    "They're not the same and it doesn't take a genius to spot the difference"

    Again, see the dictionaty ref above.

    "doesn't take a genius to spot the difference" A good phrase, much overused, steeped in irony and grammatically quite correct ;)

  • Petulant_Radish #71 3 years ago

    Well the original meaning of pirate was those who sail in ships, attacking other ships, with the sole aim of stealing whatever they had (or perhaps enslaving those on board, but usually stole something as well).

    Taking something, whether that be a copy or the original item, without the legal owners permission is indeed theft, if you don’t think it is then I suggest you take a look at the countries laws where you reside and perhaps that could enlighten you a little more on such things.

    The argument of “well the original still exists so I am not stealing it” does not hold any credence when you’re talking about mass produced forms of entertainment anyway, it’s intellectual property that you’re stealing, not the actual physical thing which theoretically exists in the mind of the creator.

    Bye bye Stueypoos xx

  • oreillymj #72 3 years ago

    Wanted to run custom firmware to be able to run emulators etc and backups of software I owned. But there always seemed to be so much mucking about involved in downgrading my PSP.
    I wouldn't necessarily pirate stuff, but I''d prefer the speedier loading from MemStick rather then UMD. That's part of the reason the PSP get's so little love. PES6 loading is pretty damn slow.

    I always wondered how the pirates managed to create ISO's from UMD's

  • Schiraman #73 3 years ago

    @YobRenoops

    Heh, well that's kind of my point - I don't think it's that simple. It's not always right or always wrong, it's a great big, messy grey area.

    For example, 'my friend' does pirate US TV shows because he prefers to watch them when they come out instead of weeks or months later, and because frankly its actually a lot more convenient (although he also uses LoveFilm to get some stuff, because that's pretty convenient too and reasonably priced). And 'he' did use to pirate games back in the days of the original PlayStation because he literally couldn't afford to buy games back then - and as a result he got into console gaming, bought a PS2 and tons of games for it, and a PSP and so forth - and doesn't pirate games now he can afford to actually buy things.

  • mingster #74 3 years ago

    The levels of peole actually pirating (leeching) PSP games on torrent sites has gone down dramatically.
    This is more likely due to the fact people aren't interested in the games and can't even be bothered to download them for free.
    Make more portable games ie: puzzlers/ turn based strategy/ games that have levels that can be done in 5mins.
    Don't bother just porting PS2 games or console franchises people will just play these games on there home consoles.
    The reason the DS does so well is the games cater for the format.
    And the DS has sold gazzilions even though its easier to pirate than the PSP therefore the whole piracy is why we don't sell many PSP's argument is wrong.

  • JahB #75 3 years ago

    I've never said piracy isn't wrong or illegal, merely pointed out that all the actual evidence that's available suggests it does the industry far more harm than good overall. The Guardian piece I've already linked to in this thread is just one of a hundred examples. All the dolts whining on about how much it "costs" the industry are only looking at one side of the story, so it's no wonder they come to moronically stupid conclusions.

    they're looking at the industry side, that's the one that matters. if you weren't so hellbent on pirating games and getting them for free (or worked in the industry, but i highly doubt you're qualified, based on your idiotic statements), you might see the size of the problem.

  • gallow #76 3 years ago

    I have a psp and i buy all my games. But then you can find the games quite cheap if you look around or wait a few months.

  • bad09 #77 3 years ago

    PSP games don't sell because nobody wants them. It's got nothing to do with piracy.

    This.

    I have CF and apart from nabbing my girlfriends TR: Anniversary for PSP I've not bought, played anything on PSP for a long time, I'm not even downloading them for free!

    Still another company playing up the piracy card to justify why no one can be bothered to pay for their crap. Sad thing is governments are listening to 'em.....
    Edited by 1 at 22/04/09 @ 13:25

  • Schiraman #78 3 years ago

    @kangarootoo

    Well here's the thing, you're basically saying that piracy fits this definition of stealing:

    "to appropriate (ideas, credit, words, etc.) without right or acknowledgement."

    But I don't think it does fit that. The way I'd interpret that definition is that you're claiming someone else's ideas as your own - i.e. you're stealing the credit for those ideas. Thus they no longer have that credit, and you have it instead. Hence stealing. Indeed all the definitions you give hinge on that central point: you take a thing, and its original owner no longer has it.

    I'd say in order for piracy to qualify as stealing by that definition that pirates would need to copy the item and then claim they'd created it themselves. So perhaps when people pirate things and then offer them for sale that might qualify, how's that as a compromise? But I don't see how pirating media for personal consumption is the same as stealing. Regardless of whether you think it's right or wrong, I think it's reasonable to accept that there is a key difference there.
    Edited by 1 at 22/04/09 @ 13:28

  • JahB #79 3 years ago

    Sad thing is governments are listening to 'em.....

    how is that sad? if the governments started listening, they might crack down on piracy, which will benefit all gamers in the long run and only hurt the ones that had it coming anyway

  • Petulant_Radish #80 3 years ago

    “And 'he' did use to pirate games back in the days of the original PlayStation because he literally couldn't afford to buy games back then”

    Computer games are a luxury, I can understand people who are starving stealing food out of sheer necessity to keep them alive, but something that is merely entertainment is simply not needed in your life, it is something that you purchase out of interest.

    Reasoning that someone pirated games because they ‘literally couldn’t afford them’ is not good enough, if you can’t afford such things then learn to do without, get a job to buy them, or wait until the product is cheaper.

  • JahB #81 3 years ago

    @Schiraman

    you might want to look at nr.1 of that definition:

    1. to take (the property of another or others) without permission or right, esp. secretly or by force: A pickpocket stole his watch.

    do you think that "media" in general doesn't qualify as property?

  • Rev.StuartCampbell #82 3 years ago

    "Taking something, whether that be a copy or the original item, without the legal owners permission is indeed theft, if you don’t think it is then I suggest you take a look at the countries laws where you reside and perhaps that could enlighten you a little more on such things."

    If you live in the UK then it's YOU who needs to do that, because in the UK piracy is copyright infringement and copyright infringement is NOT legally theft. Cheerio, fuckwit.

  • YobRenoops #83 3 years ago

    @Schiraman

    But your "friend" is still stealing (taking the IP) just to make something convenient for him. What gives you that right (and lets knock the euphemisms on the head here, either be honest it's actually you or stop talkiing)?

    You pirated US TV shows because you couldn't be bothered waiting and its more convenient.
    You pirated PS1 games because you couldn't afford it.

    They sound like reasons that thieves use.

    It really is as simple as black and white. You want it to be grey to validate your own theft.

  • oreillymj #84 3 years ago

    @JahB

    Actually you could say that piracy has been good for music consumers. 10 years ago I was paying IR£19.99 for CD's. Now I can pick up a lot of stuff for €10-15.

    The music industry were raking it in for years as people moved from vinyl to CD, but still claimed that they weren't profiteering.

    It's only since the arse fell out of the CD market, that they decided to try to reduce prices and go for volume to beat piracy.

  • Petulant_Radish #85 3 years ago

    Someone is a grumpy bunny aren’t you Stueypoos? Do you want a hug?

    I see what you’re getting at, you’re sticking on the word theft rather than the legality of what you’re talking about. So are you saying that piracy isn’t a crime, or is a crime, but not defined as theft?

  • kangarootoo #86 3 years ago

    @Schiraman

    "Well here's the thing, you're basically saying that piracy fits this definition of stealing:
    "to appropriate (ideas, credit, words, etc.) without right or acknowledgement."
    But I don't think it does fit that"

    Well, tbh I'm not sure it really comes down to whether you think it does or doesn't fit that. I am quoting a dictionary definition of a word, so if you disagree its the publisher you should speak to rather than me :)


    Stealing is different to theft. Theft is a legally defined term, stealing is not. Arguing about whether piracy is stealing or is theft or is something else is completely irrelevant. The discussion here is about why people pirate PSP games, whether it is widespread, how it might be prevented or reduced and so on.

    Talk of whether piracy constitutes theft is to try and make a discussion about morality, and yet the irony is that is apparently defending the morality of piracy, people start getting picky over legal definitions. If it is a question of morality, it doesn't really matter whether piracy is theft or not, it is simply a matter of whether taking something you are not entitled to or morally correct or not.


    I think the Right Petulant Reverend has me on ignore. He tends to do that with people he finds challenging (or those who aren't swayed by childish insults).

  • Gaol #87 3 years ago

    Whether you clasify piracy as 'stealing' or 'obtaining intellectual property without consent' or anything else is a semantic debate, fact is it's wrong and doing the PSP industry a lot of harm.

    However, this is not mutually exclusive with some other facts, like the PSP has a shit selection of games, the UMD format stinks, the machine is uncomfortable and fragile and just operates too slowly for a handheld; and the retail games are overpriced.

    All these things feed into each other. They should just get on with PSP2.

  • Rev.StuartCampbell #88 3 years ago

    "So are you saying that piracy isn’t a crime, or is a crime, but not defined as theft?'

    Copyright infringement is a civil offence. In the strict legal sense, it isn't a "crime", no.

    Try hugging me and you'll see what a crime looks like.

  • Rev.StuartCampbell #89 3 years ago

    "fact is it's doing the PSP industry a lot of harm."

    That isn't a "fact" at all. All the available evidence points to the opposite conclusion.

  • dsmx #90 3 years ago

    PSP has piracy simply because the pirated versions are the best product, On my psp's memory stick is Jeanne d'arc which didn't get released in europe, patapon 2 which I own, worms open warfare 2 which I also own and pes 2009 which I also own. All those are iso files on my memory stick, how many of those are available to buy as a digital download?

    More to the point I can't buy them as I put CFW on my psp because of the huge advantages it offers over the standard FW.

    Sony can cry from the highest tower that the piracy levels are sickening but the fact remains that the pirated version is more convenient, offers faster load times, can carry multiple games with you with no extra space needed. The argument that it's free is immaterial as even before you get to the price the advantages of the pirated version are already evident.

    Technically speaking I pirated those games but since I own them already how am I stealing?

  • Schiraman #91 3 years ago

    @YobRenoops

    Assume whatever you like, I admit nothing ;)

    In any case, see my above points about piracy not equalling theft.

    And its unfortunate that you've missed my point regarding pirating TV shows and PS1 games too. The common factor in both cases is that it doesn't actually cost the industry money and in fact benefits them. Now I agree that they didn't agree to it, and would stop people doing either thing if they could, but still - overall they profit by it, so I find that to be enough of a grey area that I don't care.

    To explain in greater detail what I mean - in my example with the games piracy, someone who would never have bought games gets them for free instead - this costs the industry nothing and does them no harm. That person then enjoys those games so much that they not only go out and buy a console that they wouldn't otherwise have bought, but they lots of sequels to the games they'd enjoyed, and then go on to buy a ton of completely new games. They then play these games with friends, spread word of how good they were, etc. etc. All in all the initial act of piracy leads to a huge win for the industry.

    As for TV shows - it may be costing the producers a tiny amount of income from advertising, but since it brings these shows to the attention of a whole circle of friends and since both the person pirating the shows and some of the others will later go on to buy DVDs of some of them, etc. I again don't really see a problem here. If it were possible to subscribe to a service that let me just download the shows I wanted when I wanted for a monthly fee (basically like LoveFilm crossed with DVD sales, and having a price per episode somewhat less than the equivalent cost on DVD) then I'd do that. But in the meantime I don't see how piracy is an especially harmful alternative - the shows get an audience, it makes the producers money - job done. Again, without piracy those are just shows that my whole circle of friends never watch at all - how does that help the industry exactly?

    All in all, I just don't see the bad here. At this point in my life I wouldn't pirate games, as it happens (despite the fact that I have fuck all money), but I've seen on more than one occasion how piracy can be a great boon for the industry in the long term, so I'm absolutely clear that it's not always a bad thing. Morally grey: check, equal to theft and absolutely wrong: not so much ;)

  • JahB #92 3 years ago

    @oreillymj

    i see the point you're trying to make, but your argument is somewhat flawed - music is much, much cheaper to make than videogames. you don't need 2-3 years, 200 people and 50 million dollars to make an outstanding album.

    and while i'd appreciate a general RRP price drop, games getting cheaper would mean shorter dev-cycles, less pay and ultimately - worse games.

  • JayScott #93 3 years ago

    @ kangarootoo

    Don't worry, the right Rev. is proving himself to be more a child with every passing post. If he wants to willfully stick his fingers in his ears to block out the intelligent and reasoned posts you make, it's his loss.
    Edited by 1 at 22/04/09 @ 13:48

  • mcbi4kh2 #94 3 years ago

    @JahB +1
    Also, artists got money from royalties, concerts, TV appearences etc. The actual money made from album sales has always been quite small I think.

    Game dev's only get money from selling the game, not much else.
    Edited by 1 at 22/04/09 @ 13:48

  • JahB #95 3 years ago

    "fact is it's doing the PSP industry a lot of harm."

    That isn't a "fact" at all. All the available evidence points to the opposite conclusion.

    what evidence could possibly point into the direction that piracy has a positive influence?? you must know nothing about the games industry at all - so here's a little knowledge for you: manufacturers sell consoles at a loss and make money on games. pirated games -> no win on software / loss on hardware.

    get a clue. and a job while you're at it

  • the_mtfr #96 3 years ago

    @JahB

    "the entire industry agrees that piracy is a huge problem"

    You're wrong here. Most of the developers+publishers say that (not even ALL of them say it, some agree pirating numbers have nothing to do with sales). They are salesmen. As life should have (or will, depending on your age) taught you is that salesmen happen to lie to spitshine the appearance of what they are selling, therefore it is plainly stupid to believe only what salesmen say. When 2 opposing parties argue you should always find the balance between them.

    You should rather believe some research conducted by universities, which are usually more balanced than either publishers or pirates. But coincidentally their findings suggest that the publishers are almost completely wrong.

    Read more before you accuse.

  • skillian #97 3 years ago

    If it is a question of morality, it doesn't really matter whether piracy is theft or not, it is simply a matter of whether taking something you are not entitled to or morally correct or not.

    Yes, but the reason anti-piracy ads and the like call it theft is to make it seem more immoral. By using that term they aren't trying to change any legal definitions, but tug at people's guilty consciousness and make neutral observers see it differently. So morals are completely wrapped up in the words used to describe piracy

    Without trying to start a massive flame-war, it's kind of like protesters calling the Iraq war an act of terrorism. I would say that is wrong, and they are merely using that word because it has such powerful connotations, but that doesn't make me an Iraq war supporter (I most certainly am not). It just means I want to see the debate talked about realistically without hyperbole.

    /sorry for politix, but was the best example I could think of

  • bad09 #98 3 years ago

    @ JahB

    It's sad because, once they get the net we will pay more for less just like we are seeing in DLC gaming. We all now how these industries operate, they done it for years! Also sad because once again Gov listens to business not people.

    See I know the poorer side of life and known many people who did/do pirate, as much some people like to believe people who pirate are evil baby's candy stealing lowlifes, many are actually broke and can''t afford the silly prices all these industries ask for. They want the goods but can't afford them ALL for various reasons. Sure many will shout "get a job" or some other Mail reading rubbish but it's not always that easy. Of course I'm not denying there are probably just as many thieving gits but it's not black and white like some of you think.

    If you ask me instead of this guy calling piracy levels "sickening" he SHOULD be calling PSN PSP prices "sickening", but he won't 'cos he wants us to buy at those inflated prices.

    That's why it's sad, because for all the cries of stealing, for all the spying from ISP's, for all the bullying of governments the truth is not enough PAYING customers wanted their products, that not piracy's fault, those people were never going to pay for it so it's no lost sale. I wonder what excuse will they use if they do close down file sharing?

  • the_mtfr #99 3 years ago

    @JahB

    "games getting cheaper would mean shorter dev-cycles, less pay and ultimately - worse games"

    You gotta be kidding me. If something gets cheaper, you do know that it sells in bigger numbers, do you? That's the whole point of balancing the price - to appeal to a larger or a smaller market share. Where the hell do you get these?

  • spidermanalf #100 3 years ago

    The PSP is so easy to crack its untrue, a 4 quid Pandora battery from Deal Extreme, and a quick google and tadaaaaaa

    But as said above, the PSP would do better if it actually had decent games!

  • Schiraman #101 3 years ago

    @kangarootoo:

    I agree that whether or not piracy = stealing/theft/whatever isn't the only issue, and probably is a complete sideshow overall - but it just happens to wind me up when people always try and resolve the issue by saying "piracy = theft, therefore it's always wrong!", so I thought it was worth commenting that I think they're wrong.

    And yes, I think the publishers are wrong too - but no, I'm not going to waste my time trying to convince them of that by e-mailing them or whatever. From the fact that you've not come back with any reason why piracy does equal theft (or stealing, take your pick), I presume you're conceding the point though. ;)

    As for the morality of piracy, I think it's a grey area. I mean more so than most crimes even. It'd be pretty hard to argue that stealing is always wrong, and it's a lot harder to make the case with piracy. It's a very nebulous crime and its effects are exceedingly hard to measure - it may or may not be bad for the industry overall, and the individual effect of each instance of piracy is clearly exceedingly small. Overall then, I'd be hard pressed to get particularly annoyed about someone pirating things - I might disapprove and think they were a bit of a twat, depending how much they pirated things and what they downloaded exactly - but it'd be on a similar level to me getting offended by someone who's a bit rude or who inexplicably votes conservative or something... ;)

    And on a more serious note: I think piracy as a global trend is arguably a good thing. It may be causing some short-term harm (again, debatable, but let's move on) but it also puts pressure on the industry to treat customers more fairly - getting content to people worldwide at the same time, for a fair price, and in a way that's convenient for consumers rather than just for the industry.

  • floppylobster #102 3 years ago

    50 million is such a horseshit figure. There may be 50 million downloads but that does not, EVER, mean there would have been one for one sales at retail level. When games are 'free' people will download hundreds and try everything. When they're paying retail they'll buy 1 or 2 a month at best.

    Company execs ask employees to make an estimate on loses to piracy. Those employees go and check the number of downloads, multiply by the full retail price and quote figures back to them in the millions. The movie industry does the same thing.

    Piracy is a problem yes. But lying about the billions you're losing gains you no sympathy, it only makes you look greedy and raises questions about how many millions you really need. Where were all these billions going before piracy became such a common problem? That may offer a clue to why piracy has grown so much of late.

  • mingster #103 3 years ago

    This explains the whole piracy issue in easy to understand rap.

    Don't copy that floppy....

    http://www .youtube.com/watch?v=-Xfqkdh5Js4

  • kangarootoo #104 3 years ago

    @skillian

    You make a good point, but I don't see it as a matter of picking one side or another. My take is quite simple.

    1. Those that try and twist and play with words to suggest that piracy is morally fine are f*cking idiots (I have pirated in the past, but I have NO moral defense for that and I f*cking know it).

    2. Whoever came up with "you wouldn't steal a handbag" advert is ALSO a f*cking idiot.


    You see, we have this blight in our age where we (or the media, or both) seem to think that the definition of a balanced debate is to take two equally extreme and uninformed views and let them fight it out. That is not a balanced or reasoned debate, it is just twice as many idiots in the same room.

    "It just means I want to see the debate talked about realistically without hyperbole. "

    You and me both. You. And. Me. Both.

  • Petulant_Radish #105 3 years ago

    “I think piracy as a global trend is arguably a good thing”

    Tell that to traders off the coasts of Africa!

  • mingster #106 3 years ago

    spidermanalf says "The PSP is so easy to crack its untrue, a 4 quid Pandora battery from Deal Extreme, and a quick google and tadaaaaaa"

    thats actually a lot of effort for your non-techy person/casual user / child.

    Nintendo DS is even easier you don't have to do any of the above just by a cheap pirate cartridge thats it no cracking involved.

    Therefore it should be Nintendo crying about piracy not Sony.... hmm odd they aren't
    Edited by 2 at 22/04/09 @ 14:11

  • Schiraman #107 3 years ago

    @Petulant_Radish

    Not quite what I meant, but even then - maybe it'll attract more attention to the crappy situation in various parts of Africa, and maybe it'll lead to some more focus on international law and government rather than nation states trying to deal with everything solo. There's always a silver lining... ;)

  • sneetch #108 3 years ago

    @LazyDan
    Just because someone has pirated a game does not mean they would've ever spent money on it, or even intend to play the pirated copy sometimes.

    No, it's not a guaranteed sale but the chance of them buying a copy of a game that they haven't pirated is a whole lot higher than the chance of them buying a copy of a game that they have pirated.

    Regardless, that's a smokescreen, the point is moot: if the company or individual that produces a product offers it for sale then people do not have a right to that product (be it a game/movie/music/whatever) unless they pay for it.

    Any bleating about how they're too expensive or not actually worth it or I can't afford it is just bullshit. That's the price it's set at you can either pay it or not, you may not like the price or terms but those are your options. There's no moral high-ground, no legitimate excuse for taking these products and anyone who says there is is deluding themself: you're not some freedom fighter sticking it to the evil corporations, you're a thief, ignoring pointless semantics about whether or not it's strictly speaking "theft".
    Edited by 1 at 22/04/09 @ 14:16

  • Petulant_Radish #109 3 years ago

    “Try hugging me and you'll see what a crime looks like”

    So grumpy, an offer of a hug does not deserve such a harsh rebuttal.

  • JahB #110 3 years ago

    Therefore it should be Nintendo crying about piracy not Sony.... hmm odd they aren't

    big difference here: nintendo makes a win on hardware. additionally, the majority of DS owners are too young/not technical adapt enough to even bother with piracy; if they were, i guarantee you crap like brain training and pokemon wouldn't sell the massive amounts they do

  • skillian #111 3 years ago

    You see, we have this blight in our age where we (or the media, or both) seem to think that the definition of a balanced debate is to take two equally extreme and uninformed views and let them fight it out. That is not a balanced or reasoned debate, it is just twice as many idiots in the same room.

    It is truly one of the biggest problems of our times, and I generally place the blame for it with the media.

    Debating the tricky grey areas is where progress really gets made, but instead of that we ask two idiots at the extreme edges of an issue to fight it out until one can convince us they are right. The trouble is, neither of them are right, because in 90% of cases the answers lie somewhere in the middle.

  • Spekingur #112 3 years ago

    The Picture of Understanding the Diffirence!

    Also, a download does not equal a lost sale. Fact of that thing that people do, can't remember... errr... LIFE! Yes, that's it, fact of life.

    @sneetch.. so I should spend my hard earned cash on something that I have no idea what is? Basically we should spend money on uncertanity? It's not the consumers that are being the evil ones, the consumers are Moving With the Times. The publishers (and developers) are the ones that trying to keep an avalanche from flowing by pushing at it with a pointy stick. And however big or pointy this stick it is still just a stick against a big avalanche. Being so hard-headed to try and push the avalanche up the mountain is the biggest problem of the game industry (or entertainment industry in general) and that is why 'illegal file-sharing' has gotten to be so popular.
    Edited by 1 at 22/04/09 @ 14:28

  • smoison #113 3 years ago

    I just want to thank Rev. Stuart Campbell, skillian, bad09, the_mtfr for the great comments and well thought out responses.


    JahB is either (hopefully) a paid employee currently at work writing up propaganda on forums, or a young boy who's dad works in the industry.


  • LazyDan #114 3 years ago

    @LazyDan

    So without piracy, your mate would have bought 2 more games.

    And this defends piracy how?

    Wasn't defending it. It's wrong. Point was that 'my mate' would've bought 2 more games - the industry would have you believe that he would've bought all 70+ games he's downloaded, which is misleading of them and incorrect. They're not helping their own cause if they're going to distort facts.


    EDIT: As my point wasn't controversial enough, I'll add another: While I agree piracy and developers being left out of pocket is wrong, I don't believe the people who do it are criminals who deserve to be fined or worse. To me, it makes more sense for the industry to have to work this one out by design.

    'My mate' doesn't pirate World of Wacraft, because he can't. He doesn't pirate Steam games, because it's easier to pay and they're at a reasonable price. This is a problem which can be solved by design, rather than law.
    Edited by 1 at 22/04/09 @ 14:29

  • kangarootoo #115 3 years ago

    @Schiraman

    On the subject of whether "the publishers" are right, that depends on what any given publisher is saying.

    I'll make two points (as I am on a point making roll) to clarify where I stand on the issue of sales being affected.

    1. Those that say every pirated game is a lost sale are full of shit.
    2. Those that say piracy has no effect on sales are full of shit.

    SOME of the copies pirated would never have been bought in the first place, but SOME of those copies pirated are done by people who would have bought a copy had the pirated copy not been available. I mean, call me mad, but this seems like common sense to me. The trouble is that discussions about piracy often push common sense out of the door if it will hinder the ability of angry people to justify their grumpiness.

  • Spekingur #116 3 years ago

    It can also create sales. People seem to forget that.

  • nikobe #117 3 years ago

    Learn from the music industry make it easier and more convenient to download and play games legally on the psp than it is to pirate. You can buy albums for £3 off amazon or iTunes and be playing them in about a minute.

    I don't have a PSP but I'm interested in one, thing is why are they getting more expensive? the PSP-3000 is £140, I would imagine this new psp is better at stopping piracy than the older models but if your going to make them so expensive I'll go find a slim&lite or old second hand models (with old firmware).

  • Daymare #118 3 years ago

    Piracy does have some positive effects and in a lot of cases makes no difference, but the irony of it all is that the more we try to view it and advocate it as something positive and justified, the more dangerous (and consequently negative) it becomes.

  • Rev.StuartCampbell #119 3 years ago

    "That's the price it's set at you can either pay it or not, you may not like the price or terms but those are your options."

    Ooh, look who just got elected king of everything.

    Sadly for you and your idiotic black-and-white outlook, people DO have a third option, otherwise there wouldn't be a debate for you to be honking your cobblers all over. The fact that you don't like them exercising that option is of no importance to them whatsoever. In fact, I'd wager that a lot of people take up piracy after reading threads like this, purely to piss off ignorant, ill-informed, pompous, self-important cretins like you.

  • Schiraman #120 3 years ago

    @sneetch

    Actually I think you're dead wrong there - I've known people to buy copies of things that they're pirated from somewhere, so it does happen. And I've seen that happen in several cases where the person in question never would have heard of the item if they'd not been given a copy by someone else. Not to mention people buying sequels, or albums by the same band, or what have you. Piracy can sometimes be a great form of grass-roots advertising.

    As for the morality of piracy - there is an important moral distinction between piracy and theft, you're not depriving the previous owner of the item, you're just copying it. Whether it's still always morally wrong seems pretty debatable to me, especially given my points above. Even assuming you have any sympathy for massive entertainment corporations in the first place, which I find pretty puzzling honestly given the way they behave...

  • UncleLou #121 3 years ago

    Legal digital downloads of music in Sweden have doubled in the last couple of weeks since stricter anti-piracy laws and the The Pirate Bay decision, while web traffic from filesharing has taken a nosedive.

    All a big coincidence, I am sure.
    Edited by 1 at 22/04/09 @ 14:37

  • miiiguel #122 3 years ago

    And above all pirates are parasites, they can steal because some ppl actually pay for the products to exist. I'd like to see if everyone steal all their games. What would happen?

  • Schiraman #123 3 years ago

    @kangarootoo

    I agree absolutely, although I'd also add: SOME copies pirated lead to extra sales that would never have occurred otherwise.

  • Rodney #124 3 years ago

    okay, I have a confession to make. I am in the UK for a month visiting and because games are considerabley cheaper here I have given myself a £200 budget to stock up on games for the next year (until I return for my next annual visit)

    the things is, while here I have had access to a pretty good internet connection and I have download some old PC games for the laptop, loads megadrive/SNES ROM's (for my DS), and about 10x DS games. To be honest I feel pretty guilty about it because I do like to support the developers and I wont try and rationalise it any way. what I have done is wrong and its because of my own greed, nothing else.

    having said that, I am still spending my £200 budget and so far I have bought 5x360, 3x DS games and 2x PC games . Im shopping around still at the moment to spend the last of my budget. (thanks all new bargain thread!)

    so exactly how evil am I on a scale of 1-10?

  • dsmx #125 3 years ago

    I fail to see what is morally wrong with downloading a copy of something from a corporation that would sell it's own soul if it could make a few extra bucks.

    If you wanted to reduce piracy to almost zero you could of course just release everything onto the internet DRM free for 1 pound an item. But that would never work...
    Edited by 1 at 22/04/09 @ 14:44

  • kangarootoo #126 3 years ago

    @Spekingur and Daymare edit: and Schiraman

    Piracy may have some positives (and may even account for the odd extra sale on rare occasion) but I would consider them to be very much edge cases. Overall, piracy harms the industry more than it helps it.

    E.g. a system that saves 3 lives is no use if it causes 10 deaths at the same time.
    Edited by 1 at 22/04/09 @ 14:44

  • kangarootoo #127 3 years ago

    "Ooh, look who just got elected king of everything.

    Sadly for you and your idiotic black-and-white outlook, people DO have a third option"

    Sweet zombie jesus. This guy is in his late 30s, and still he speaks like this. Will somebody slap him... and then ask him these questions.

    WHAT is the third option?

    WHAT is his actually point, his world view, his take on the whole piracy situation? All I am reading is stroppy dismisal and honestly I have no bloody idea what his actual opinion is.

  • miiiguel #128 3 years ago

    "To be honest I feel pretty guilty about it because I do like to support the developers and I wont try and rationalise it any way. what I have done is wrong and its because of my own greed, nothing else. "
    Kudos for that. Honesty, and the truth. The vast majority of "free-downloaders" do it because it's free, not because they want to "fight the greedy company"; "suits aren't cool"; "punk's not dead"; "I'm poor"... et cetera...

  • Spekingur #129 3 years ago

    I never said that it created many sales. But it does create sales. Which is interesting, given that the antis are saying that it doesn't, that each download equals a lost sale. Which is the problem.

    And I disagree. File-sharing opens up the industry alot more. Now developers don't have to do binding deals with publishers, the people in the industry that have had all the power. The publishers don't want the power to shift from them back to the developers. And I much rather want to give the developers my money than the publishers.
    Edited by 2 at 22/04/09 @ 14:53

  • Daymare #130 3 years ago

    @Schiraman and other pro-piracy people here

    How would you rationalise and justify your stance to those people that bought copies you've pirated?

  • ruckus #131 3 years ago

    I used to be a fisherman with a poor family that depended only on fishing.

    The first day joining the pirates came into my mind was in 2006.

    A group of our villagers, mainly fishermen I knew, were arming themselves.

    One of them told me that they wanted to hijack ships, which he said were looting our sea resources.

    He told me it was a national service with a lot of money in the end. Then I took my gun and joined them.

    Years ago we used to fish a lot, enough for us to eat and sell in the markets.
    Then illegal fishing and dumping of toxic wastes by foreign fishing vessels affected our livelihood, depleting the fish stocks.

    I had no other choice but to join my colleagues.

    The first hijack I attended was in February 2007 when we seized a World Food Programme-chartered ship with 12 crew.

    I think it had the name of MV Rozen and we released it after two months, with a ransom.

    I am not going to tell you how much it was, or three other hijackings I have been involved in since.

    My ambition is to get a lot of money so that I can lead a better life.

    Now I have two lorries, a luxury car and have started my own business in my town.

    I only want one more chance in piracy to increase my cash assets, then I will get married and give up.

    Piracy is not just easy money - it has many risks and difficulties.

    Sometimes you spend months in the sea to hunt a ship and miss.

    Sometimes when we are going to hijack a ship we face rough winds, and some of us get sick and some die.

    Sometimes you fail in capturing and sometimes you come under threat by foreign navies, but all we do is venture.

    Let me give you a good example.

    Thousands of young desperate Somali [migrants] continue to risk their lives in the sea in search of a better life abroad.

    So it is no surprise to see us in the same water, pirating in search of money - there is no difference.

    We have local support; most of the people here depend on pirates directly or indirectly.

    Because if there is a lot of money in the town they can get some through friendship, relatives or business.

    Also our work is seen by many in the coastal villages as legal and we are viewed as heroes.

    The only way the piracy can stop is if [Somalia] gets an effective government that can defend our fish.

    And then we will disarm, give our boats to that government and will be ready to work.

    Foreign navies can do nothing to stop piracy.

  • the_mtfr #132 3 years ago

    Smoison, thanks I feel warmer inside now :) personally I'd have added LazyDan and Spekingur to the list too. And maybe 1-2 sentences of Kangarootoo's.

    So by the way, except God of War, Jeanne d'Arc, Warhammer 40K Squad Command, Stardust Portable, Patapon and maybe Pipe Mania, are there some other good games on PSP? God I imagined there'd be tons of super-fun sidescrollers like the old Raptor or Tyrian 2000, but no, a load of idiotic messes.

  • Schiraman #133 3 years ago

    @kangarootoo

    You say that the sales lost hugely outnumber the sales gained, but actually neither of us has any idea if that's true or not. And neither does the industry, which makes its hardline stance all the more obnoxious.

    In any case I'm not trying to say that piracy is always a good thing, or even to comment on the ratio of good to bad - because I acknowledge that I have no clue. But I do know that it's sometimes a good thing, and on those occasions when it appears to be doing more good than harm (or is roughly neutral) then I have no problem with it. Seems reasonable to me.

    Also, as I said earlier, I do think that the rise of piracy in general may yet be a very positive force for consumer rights overall. And frankly I care a lot more about consumer rights than I do about the profits of any company.

    @Daymare

    Calling me 'pro-piracy' is potentially a bit misleading. I don't think it's as simple as being always for or always against. It's a complicated issue and there are a lot of grey areas. I do think that it's sometimes justifiable, see above and my previous posts for why.

    I don't especially think that piracy is a some kind of slap in the face for people that bought the same thing though, which seems to be what you're implying. If you choose to buy something because that makes sense to you, and someone else decides to copy it instead of buying I don't think that means you need to be at odds, you just made different decisions about the relative worth of that item.

  • kangarootoo #134 3 years ago

    @Spekingur

    "And I much rather want to give the developers my money than the publishers."

    A sound policy in many cases*. However, legit buying does both, and piracy does neither. So where does that put you?



    * seperated out 'cos its a different discussion. But we should be wary of tarring all publishers with the same brush just because a few bad ones give them a bad name. Some publishers are very good, and bring a marketing budget to the table that a dev could never afford. Good marketing equals more sales, equals more money for the developer.

    So I'm not disagreeing that more money for the dev is a good thing, but lets be cautious about assuming that removing publishers from the picture would automatically benefit devs. It many cases the opposite would be true.

  • shotgun44 #135 3 years ago

    I download a lot of American TV programmes because I don't wanna wait until summer 2010 to see the next season of my favorite show! However, I often buy the box sets when they eventually get released here if I think the show was particularly awesome (everyone should watch the show 'Chuck'). I also use Lovefilm for films. I will admit my dad chipped my PS1 back in the day though :o. Although to be fair I can completely understand the 'why pay for it if I can get it for free?' mentality. It's not hard to grasp. Who doesn't like getting stuff for free?!

  • kangarootoo #136 3 years ago

    @Schiraman

    Well ok, I have no proof. And my claim to it being common sense is a bit of a dodge I suppose. However, we can apply our minds to the evidence that we do have. Scientific discovery would get nowhere is people didn't just form some theories and then test them out.


    "And frankly I care a lot more about consumer rights than I do about the profits of any company"

    Ok, lets look at a hyperthetical situation, to try and question whether things are as black and whote as your point perhaps suggests. The following is of course entirely made up.


    I am a lone dev making my software at home. I work long days for no pay, and when I've made my software I sell it to whoever will pay me. After a year or few I get a bit more cash together, such that I can live from the previous profits whilst making my next title. Eventually this works well enough that I can even buy myself a reasonbly priced car and go on holiday from time to time. Things keep improving so I take on more staff, just a couple of guys/girls to help me work on bigger things or maybe I just want to get the games finished in a shorter time. Now I am getting known and a couple of publishers are interested. I don't want to turn away work, so I hire enough people to work to projects at the same time. I still dabble on both projects, but I am increasingly finding myself managing a business. Now I have three teams, a decent portfolio, lots of industry contacts. In short, a successful independant studio. So I get some financial backing and I decide to start self publishing. This goes pretty well and after a while I am publishing 3 of my own titles every 2 years. One of my teams then comes to me with a great idea for a game, and although I can't justify the company backing it I say "well if you want to form your own studio, I will publish the game for you" and everyone is delighted. A few more years pass, and I find that it suits everyone better so my own company rarely develops its own titles. Now most of my business is in publishing the titles that other small devs are making... and maybe one day they will be in my shoes doing the same thing.

    Thoughout all of this, people were pirating my games. Right from day 1, when I was first making them by myself in my back room, right up until I was a relatively big hitter publishing several titles a year.


    The question is, at what point did I become a big evil company? I've always tried to do the right thing, pay well, give good pensions and benefits, create good relationships with devs that served all of us. So at what point did everything become so simple that I stopped being a consumer myself, with my own bills to pay and family to feed (probably getting sympathy from gamers in response to my work being pirated), and started being a big evil company (getting cries of "You deserve it, big evil corp" instead)?
    Edited by 1 at 22/04/09 @ 15:32

  • Rev.StuartCampbell #137 3 years ago

    "How would you rationalise and justify your stance to those people that bought copies you've pirated? "

    People who bought legitimate copies didn't create the game, and are therefore owed no justification by people with illegal copies.

  • dsmx #138 3 years ago

    Sony makes the psp region free, developers then proceed to stagger releases between different regions. This leaves you with 3 options 1 you wait, 2 you import the game, 3 you download a pirated version and play it within 20 minutes.

    Which do you think any person with CFW on their psp is going to? You can't justify staggering releases when you don't have to do anything to release another version in another country we live in a world where information is transmitted in seconds and companies still refuse to allow people to access what they want when they want. This is what pirates are providing, they are providing a service that few companies even bother attempting even though there is a huge demand for it.

    People who attack piracy saying it's killing the industry need to get their heads out their arses and work out how they justify not providing a service that clearly millions of people want. People want easy access to media and on every torrent site your practically 5 clicks away from any bit of information you could possibly want yet almost every company seems to think the best way of fighting this is to try and shut them down.

    The psp has massive potential but sony have dragged their feet at every point in getting digital distribution onto the psp so hackers gave us CFW and allowed us, the end user to put games on the psp without the need for a UMD. The massive improvements in performance on the psp such as battery life and load times is justification in itself for getting a pirated copy and that's even if you don't include the fact that it's free.

  • kangarootoo #139 3 years ago

    "People who bought legitimate copies didn't create the game, and are therefore owed no justification by people with illegal copies."

    This is just another way of dodgy the question and stifling the debate. We are all here because we are interested in discussing the subject at hand. Saying "I don't need to justify myself to you" in response to a question is ridiculous in the context of a discussion thread.

  • Dizzy #140 3 years ago

    You know that Piracy supports Terrorism!!!!!!!! Blair said so!

  • redneon Verified Programmer, SUMO Digital #141 3 years ago

    @kangarootoo:

    I don't know why you bother. At the risk of stooping to his level, he's clearly a cock :)

  • miiiguel #142 3 years ago

    "You know that Piracy supports Terrorism!!!!!!!! Blair said so! "

    I know that's a joke, but you should take a look at Pirate Bay's foruns... pretty disturbing rethoric. Yes, it even includes some pro-terrorism measures to "fight the power".

  • SixFootHalfling #143 3 years ago

    "And I accuse those who say "I only use it to play old SNES games" because then your stealing the SNES games. "

    So I download a SNES game that is no longer in production, and cannot be bought from the publisher / developer. Instead I download an emulator and the ROM.

    Who does this hurt?

    It is impossible for the publisher / developer to gain any money from me, so why shouldn't I download it?

    "There's no moral high-ground, no legitimate excuse for taking these products and anyone who says there is is deluding themself"

    How about I buy a game and the DRM makes it unplayable on my pc. Because it is a PC game the store won't take it back, so I'm stuck with a game I have to crack in order to play.

    Why should I risk buying a game from the same publishers which may not work because of DRM, that again I can't return, and may not have a crack when I buy it, rendering it useless to me. Simply put I wouldn't. However, if I pirated it, and if it worked I would go and buy it, but if not, I've lost nothing, and neither has the publisher.

  • the_inchworm #144 3 years ago

    If the means exist to take something for nothing, and the chances of getting caught are slim, then most people who are aware of how to take the thing in question will take it, especially if the penalties for being caught are weak. This applies from everything to scrumping apples to PSP games. Sympathy with Sony is low because they (a) forced an unpopular proprietary format at an unwilling consumer and (b) trumpeted how they wouldn't get stung by piracy.

  • kangarootoo #145 3 years ago

    @miiiguel

    "I know that's a joke, but you should take a look at Pirate Bay's foruns... pretty disturbing rethoric."

    There are crazy people everywhere. In general terms I would say "just because an idiot happens to agree with me, doesn't mean what I am saying is idiotic". And the same goes for lunatics and anarchists I suppose :)

  • Daymare #146 3 years ago

    @Schiraman

    I don't especially think that piracy is a some kind of slap in the face for people that bought the same thing though, which seems to be what you're implying. If you choose to buy something because that makes sense to you, and someone else decides to copy it instead of buying I don't think that means you need to be at odds, you just made different decisions about the relative worth of that item.

    As far as I'm concerned it's not just a "slap in the face"; it's an insulting, royal "fuck-you" to all the paying customers. It's unfair no matter how you look at it. If someone percieves something to be valuable, that someone should/will wote with his wallet and pay the asking price; if they find it unworthy, they don't/shouldn't bother with it. At all.

    Piracy is just another proof that unfortunately we can't expect people to act morally responsible in a situation where it's easy to "sin" and get away with it; you have to have laws to keep people in check and, if they're good laws, to ensure equality. Laws (and industry of course) really need to adjust to this new situation of mass and ultimately unjust "borrowing digital copies with an asking price for free" (is that a slightly more accurate description then "stealing", Reverend?;)) before it all gets out of hand.
    Edited by 1 at 22/04/09 @ 15:59

  • chrisjm #147 3 years ago

    is fare evading on the tube ok as it isnt physically taking anything.
    exactly.

  • Schiraman #148 3 years ago

    @kangarootoo

    Sure, theorise away, I have no objection - so long as you accept that you don't actually *know* what affect piracy has either.

    Personally I'd guess that piracy slightly hurts overall sales, but to nothing like the extent the industry claims - as in they're orders of magnitude out with their numbers. I'd go further and say that I think they know that, and that they don't care - because screaming about billions lost works to their advantage.

    So on the one hand you've got pirates each inflicting some minuscule harm (or perhaps some equally tiny benefit) on the industry - all terribly morally outrageous - and on the other you've got companies loudly lying about the effect it has, suing single mothers for millions, installing crashy spyware on their consumer's computers without asking and using the spectre of piracy to try and kill off second-hand sales by the back door. Which seems at least equally morally wrong to me. Maybe it's the point when your hypothetical company signs up to one of the big industry pressure groups that actually does all that stuff that you've transitioned to being evil? Hard to say.

    Anyway, my point is that in the long term I think piracy is a powerful force for consumer rights. Entertainment corporations are being forced to start getting their act together, being pushed towards things like global releases, digital distribution, etc. and that's a good thing. Hopefully once they're willing to offer a product at a fair price that competes favourably with piracy in terms of convenience and quality (i.e. doesn't crash your PC with its shitty DRM, etc.) then most consumers will embrace that instead of piracy. And at that point I'll happily agree that the remaining pirates are a pack of arseholes ;)

    I also think there's a more complex debate to be had about the inevitability of piracy given modern technology, what this means for changing business models, whether the very concept of intellectual property is still relevant or useful, etc. etc. but that's really going a long way beyond the scope of this discussion. So I'll just say that I think it's really, really complicated issue and that knee-jerk "piracy is bad, m'kay" arguments aren't really going to get us anywhere.

  • SixFootHalfling #149 3 years ago

    "is fare evading on the tube ok as it isnt physically taking anything.
    exactly. "

    But it is physically taking something, you don't take a copy of the tube, and a train, you get onto the real thing, and add wear to the system. At peak times you take up a space which could be filled with a paying customer, which reduces the quality of the system for everyone who has paid.
    But the tube doesn't then decide, "hang on, I'll make it so that the tickets are covered in shit so that people don't want to steal them", which doesn't affect the fair dodgers, but pisses everyone else off.

    I don't agree that people should pirate software which can be bought new, but I also get pissed at DRM, and people who say all piracy is bad, as I said before, using an emulator is technically piracy, but how does that affect the bankrupt developers of a spectrum game?

  • Schiraman #150 3 years ago

    @Daymare

    Personally I don't really subscribe to the idea of capitalism as the sole arbitrator of morality ;)

    So no, I don't think it's a simple as doing something that's against the law being always wrong, be that piracy, theft or any other crime. And I'm not sure there's any point in trying to enforce laws that (1) are effectively unenforceable and (2) criminalise a significant chunk of the population (I mean how many people do you think have carried out some form of unauthorised copying this year in the UK? 30-40% maybe? Perhaps more? Do we really want to lock them all up?).

    Sooner or later as a society we need to have a more honest and thoughtful discussion about piracy and intellectual property and come to terms with the fact that the world has changed and isn't about to change back again.

  • kangarootoo #151 3 years ago

    @Schiraman

    "So on the one hand you've got pirates each inflicting some minuscule harm"

    Ok, theory number one. We have the music industry as a reasonable case for comparison. As ease of piracy (that includes availablility and distribution, not just the act of making the copy) increased to be widespread, CD sales crashed. There is perhaps reasons for thinking that games will not follow the same path, but I'm not sure what those reasons are.

    However, if the above is true...

    "Anyway, my point is that in the long term I think piracy is a powerful force for consumer rights"

    is NOT necessarily UNtrue as a consequence. Certainly we are seeing change in the music business that on the face of it appears to be making it easier for artists to get a bigger cut of the pie. If the same happens for the games business, happy days.


    "I also think there's a more complex debate to be had about the inevitability of piracy given modern technology"

    A seperate discussion I would say. One of the issues here is that sometimes if someone doesn't feel they are winning an argument they will stealthily switch tracks onto a different argument they feel more confident in winning.

    I agree arguing won't get us anywhere, but proper reasoned and open debate (where we are ALLOWED to change our minds as we go if we learn something new) is awesome and great and helps us all learn things about the world. Arguing is just fighting really.

  • Ryze #152 3 years ago

    Several nonsense posts from JahB, I see.

    Now - I could never justify pirating / copying other people's intellectual property, but the PSP hasn't been ruined by piracy.

    The console was cracked because it wasn't being used for what it was capable of. The games being released didn't run well on the hardware, and largely didn't play well on the hardware, as most were shoehorned on PS2 games.

    The PSP's controls have also been known to be flawed since 2004. It's 2009 - where have the solutions been for the past 5 years? Idiots.

    UMD provides a poor portable gaming experience when it's not used properly alongside optional flash memory installs.

    Many (including myself,) waited for the portable games, improved controls and an install option or download alternative. Too little, too late - as these problems have not been resolved.

    Sony responds by putting £40 games with no demo on the PSN store. Fools.

    I unlocked my PSP out of sheer frustration having a paperweight doing noting sat in my bedroom. a £179.99 paperweight. Sony needs to wake up and start catering for gamers' needs - otherwise they can fuck right off and quit the gaming business.

    They're dong a good job selling Blu-ray players with PS3 stamped on the side of them at the moment. Maybe they should fuck off in that direction.
    Edited by 1 at 22/04/09 @ 16:37

  • dsmx #153 3 years ago

    We are in an age where the middleman, ie publishers are no longer needed to distribute media what we are seeing is publishers trying to hold onto their ability to control prices and distribution of media.

    The only thing developers need to get their game out there is money and advertising both of which can be provided by other sources other than publishers. Distribution is easy and cheap these days and can be done with no assistance from publishers, it is easier to use a publisher but your essentially signing all rights away from the game you made.

    I want to play burnout on my PC but I don't want the malware that is securom on my computer which leaves steam so I go to steam and it's not there because in the UK there are no EA games on steam but you can spoof regions and see it on the store in america, you can't buy it but it's there. This is the kind of stupidity that makes no sense so I went and downloaded from the piratebay and I've finished it since then. I still want to buy it but with the only copy available without securom being the steam version how the fuck do I get it? I want to pay for it, I still do but there is no way for me to.

    That is a lost sale and chances are many other people who have pirated something are in a similar situation, now tell me why someone should miss out on a game they want to play just because a publisher refuses to release it in a format they want?

  • Schiraman #154 3 years ago

    @kangarootoo

    I'm not sure you can prove that piracy caused a collapse in CD sales, it may have contributed but I think it's certainly fair to say that it was only one of a number of factors. For example, I've seen it suggested that the crash also coincided with most people finally finishing replacing all the old vinyl and cassettes they owned with the same music on CD - in which case you'd expect a sudden downturn really, and piracy may well just be the easy thing to blame for an industry that's running out of ideas.

    I agree that the wider topic is a separate discussion, I guess I just wanted to note that ultimately it may be a bit pointless to debate the rights and wrongs of piracy when it's probably here to stay regardless of what anyone thinks - and ultimately we're going to need to address that as a society sooner or later.

    And sorry, to clarify I wasn't complaining about the discussion in general or accusing you of a knee-jerk reaction to the topic - that perhaps came out a bit wrong on re-reading it. I was just trying to say that I don't think there's a simple answer to be had, and so the people coming in here with hard-line "piracy is wrong!" comments with no real discussion of the issue are kind of wasting everyone's time.

    Proper reasoned and open debate FTW :)

    @Umberty

    Um, yes, of course I believe myself - it'd be a sad state of affairs if even I didn't :)

    Do you have an actual point to make? Or did you just want to post something negative and couldn't think of an actual flaw in my arguments? ;)

  • Schiraman #155 3 years ago

    @Umberty

    No offence, but I'm not sure how that's any of your business. Tell you what though, you answer my question and I'll answer yours... ;)

  • Schiraman #156 3 years ago

    @Umberty

    Assume what you like, it's no skin off my nose.

    Personally I'm assuming that this whole discussion has gone right over your head, and that makes you angry and frustrated - because deep down you feel like you know what the answer is, but you just can't figure out how to put it into words.

    Assuming things is fun.
    Edited by 1 at 22/04/09 @ 16:50

  • beckyh #157 3 years ago

    I find it astonishing that people cite the high price of PSP games as a reason to pirate games. Sony can charge what they like, it is down to the individual to decide whether they can afford it or not. If they cannot afford it, that is not an excuse to go out and download illegal copies.

  • VicViper #158 3 years ago

    @Ryze

    And yet none of the desgin flaws are actual justification for you to not pay the publisher/developer for the game(product) they produced but hey if you downloaded a pirate copy of a game for it to 'work better' on your PSP and the bought a copy to support the developer then happy days

    I know people have said that this 50 mil does not equal sales, fair enough so maybe 80% might not have bought the game the downloaded but the rest would have equaling a more sucessful PSP.

    I have bought every game I currently owned for my PSP and it is not chip/flashed, if I can't afford a game then I can't buy it, simple.

    when I hear about developers losing out because people prefer to get the product for free rather than pay for it I side with the developer everytime. There is no excuse not to support someone who made the game, if suddenly a games developer went fair enough people are not paying for our work lets pack it in there would be out cry and who would we blame then? Someone made something that you enjoy why not pay them back and encourage them to create more.

    And If proof were needed look at what happened with Demi God.
    Edited by 1 at 22/04/09 @ 17:15

  • Daymare #159 3 years ago

    @Schiraman

    Personally I don't really subscribe to the idea of capitalism as the sole arbitrator of morality

    Whoa, whoa, what? :)

    All I was saying was that laws need/should uphold our equality and that, in this specific case, includes customers in a capitalistic environment. If someone has to pay for something specific so should everyone else. Or, nobody has to pay for it/anything. Since the latter wouldn't work in this situation of ours (if we want to have anything, that is), the former *should* be enforced as much as possible. Or encouraged, if you will, although I'm far more pessimistic about industry's health in a piracy-ridden future then you seem to be.

  • kangarootoo #160 3 years ago

    My final note before I bugger off, prompted by beckyh's last post (which I agree with).

    Games are a luxury. They aren't food, they aren't air, they aren't freedom of speech. We can all live without them and many do by choice.

    If we can't afford them, we can't have them. Those are the rules, rules that in principle we all accept as correct. The very basic suggestion is that if you can't afford something that you don't actually NEED, it is ok to steal it. If you NEED something to survive, the discussion gets more complex, but a starving man stealing food is still subject to law.

    Saying that it is ok to steal games because they "cost too much" is frankly f*cking pathetic. It is the most sickening kind of victimised whining, childish selfish refusal to deal with the real world. In fact I might hit so low as to say its the sort of thing I might expect Paris Hilton to say if she wasn't loaded.

    HAVE THE BALLS to say that you pirate because you can, because you don't want to pay, because you can't be arsed getting off your butt and going down the shops or waiting for play.com to deliver a disc. But for god's sake don't act like it is justified because games seem "a bit pricey".

    I'll hold my hand up, I've pirated in the past, I was alive and well in the days of swapping Amiga games at school when everyone had a big box of floppies stuffed to the gills with illicit content... but I don't pretend it was some kind of justified charity because my pocket money was sparse.

    Games are luxury goods, they are supposed to be pricey. Deal with it like a f*cking man instead of a winging child. If you genuinely NEED them you are an addict and should seek help.

    /breaths in
    Hehe. Well I hope that clarified my stance a little :)
    Edited by 1 at 22/04/09 @ 17:32

  • shotgun44 #161 3 years ago

    I wanna know where all these anti-piracy people are hiding. I honestly have never met anyone that could give a shit less about piracy either way. Whether they did it or not. And I can assure you that I don't hang around with the dregs of society or go drinking at the thieves guild either. Just a thought I had...
    Edited by 1 at 22/04/09 @ 17:35

  • Ryze #162 3 years ago

    @VicViper^

    I've bought 20odd PSP games, which I still own, even though I could rip and flog them all.

    I'm disappointed, and until that changes - I wont buy any more games. There aren't any decent new ones about right now anyway, so what's the point in torrenting or purchasing? Sony's issues are with it's own internal decisions and actions.

    They can cry me a fucking river - I invested and avoided unlocking for as long as possible - I've not even unlocked my unsuppored original Xbox yet.

    I unlocked the PSP because Sony's support for the platform has been DIRE. They're out of touch and incompetent where it comes to network software and services.

  • Schiraman #163 3 years ago

    @Daymare

    Hehe, sorry :)

    Think I was just responding to you talking about 'moral responsibility' with regards to paying for products rather than downloading them. I guess what I was trying to say is that I'm not convinced that piracy is necessarily immoral, as least no more than many everyday things - and by extension I'm not sure that a strong legal stand against it is especially productive. At worst it seems like a slap on the wrist kind of crime - not a million dollar fine one.

    Good point about laws upholding equality, that has a nice ring to it, and I do broadly agree that laws provide an important part of our social framework. But in this case we're talking about a crime that most people clearly think is ok and which is committed by a massive proportion of the population - at this point its not going to help society to enforce the law, it'd actually be detrimental. I mean imagine the chaos you'd have if you locked up every pirate, or forced them all to pay thousands of pounds for every thing they'd ever pirated...

    So basically I think we need to re-think our legal attitude to piracy, and by extension our moral one as well. I admit that I'm not sure how the entertainment industry can best cope with piracy, especially if we stop treating it as a crime, but I think that's probably what needs to happen - new business models rather than punitive lawsuits, etc.

  • miiiguel #164 3 years ago

    oh yes... I think western society should try to improve its philosophy towards IPs and go China route, I'm sure our lifestyle would be better.
    Government/laws endorsing piracy - I mean if a vast majority of people do it, it can't be that bad, right? And for equalitarian reasons, why shouldn't *everyone* stop paying for the entertaiment software ?

  • bad09 #165 3 years ago

    Still raging I see :)

    I'm with Ryze, piracy didn't ruin PSP, Sony making every smart owner dive into CF did. Getting a product that was MUCH MUCH MUCH better for a little research and a download did! By the hackers giving a better functioning product the door opened the for pirates, so Sony really only have themselves to blame..

    Seriously, outside of the piracy issue (but obviously part of the cause), I pity people stuck with official firmware and can perfectly understand why many choose to just download PSP games rather than buy them, 90% of 'em are utter toss and don't deserve our cash! On mine I play old emulators, my own PS1 (and the dregs of "classics" PSN throw at us when they feel in the mood), and a handful of PSP games (all ports). That's it, like my George Forman, if it wasn't for PS1 and media my PSP would be off to Blockbuster by now. (I'd keep the PS2 though)

    Like Ryze said the irony is once DA showed Sony the might and possibilities of a CF PSP, they went of and whacked a premium on the games if you want to download them onto MS, so you're still better off on CF! They THEN have the cheek to complain about piracy?



    On CDs, I thought MP3 players actually killed the CD industry. At the time there were no downloads and certainly no DRM free downloads, so people just file shared instead of going through the hassle of ripping. Add to that the fact the music industry is only just coming out of a truly horrendous era of boy/girl band pop garbage and milking poor R'n'B and hip hop to an inch of their lives, is it any wonder CD's fell through the floor?
    Edited by 2 at 22/04/09 @ 18:23

  • Stoatboy #166 3 years ago

    I buy quite a lot of music. Up until the recent advent of Spotify about 80% of the music I bought I already had because I'd copied the MP3s from friends. OMG - piracy! In fact IIRC it's still considered illegal to simply rip your CDs to MP3s in the UK, so anyone doing that is also breaking the law and a pirate.

    How many filthy stealing pirates do we now have in this comments thread?

  • Schiraman #167 3 years ago

    @miiiguel

    Any law that criminalises a significant section of your population is not a useful law. It's that simple. You can't round up all the pirates, and it would serve no purpose to try. And it's reasonably safe to say that so long as you're selling digital media to people, you can't prevent people making perfect copies without your permission. So basically where does that leave us?

    Broadly what I'm saying is that since piracy is clearly here to stay, it's better to be realistic about it and try and come up with ways of encouraging people to pay for media, or to come up with new ways of funding development, rather than getting all red in the face about how wrong it is (which, clearly, I don't agree with anyway).

  • webcider #168 3 years ago

    I want to argue a bit about Games being a luxury item.

    I have just had a interesting Psychology report about what defines something you need and something you wishes for.

    The difference is very clear actually. Something you need is a way determing that you physically are in need of something (food, sex) however there is also psycological needs which are a lot more complicated. Like for instance if your friends have a game. you are in need of that actually said game.
    What im saying here is that this need can be rather strong as we can all agree a person can't live with out Social contact.
    If his friends is his only contact and all of them share interest for games they would need to have something in common in this situation a game.

    Now many says a luxury item isn't actually something you don't need. See thats not true i believe in our society we are born with so much luxury that what was a luxury becomes a norm. If that norm is taken from you your mind can be hurt quite alot to the way of actually thinking dangerous thoughts (Suicide - Thiefing) and so on.

    Im not saying pirate is okay but the argument of it being a luxury item is not that black and white in this age.

    That said people who never was born with luxury don't develope a need for it and as such i believe these needs won't actually be developed unless. (ofcourse not it never had games to begin with) I hope this little twist of minding will send some debate in this thread. Enjoy the evening.
    Edited by 1 at 22/04/09 @ 18:33

  • miiiguel #169 3 years ago

    "So basically where does that leave us?"
    That is what I'm trying to understand. It's kinda weird if we're left in the "one should pay, but it's ok not to (as long as some continue to)". If it's ok not to pay, no one should. Simple ?

  • bad09 #170 3 years ago

    Interesting (and true) take webcider, luxury and need differs from person to person.

    Look at L4D, is it a luxury? Is it FUCK, I CANNOT live without it!

    / hugs valve, apologises for swearing, makes amends by spitting on a pirate....

  • toy_brain #171 3 years ago

    "Seriously, outside of the piracy issue (but obviously part of the cause), I pity people stuck with official firmware."

    OK, not trying to troll here. Legitimate question. Outside of Piracy, what benefits does CFW give PSP users these days?
    I understand the emulator angle (which could still be classified as piracy if you want to be hard-line about it), and running games off the memory stick (which is something legitimate owners can do more and more often with new games), but is there anything in the media functionality that a legit PSP can't do?

  • stevetuck #172 3 years ago

    Quick go take the pirate bay to court! jump on the bandwagon!

  • Gaol #173 3 years ago

    This thread is fucking crazy.

    How many pro-piracy idiots are also benefit frauds, layabouts or socialists. They all think they're due a free lunch.

    It's not the piracy itself that is shocking here, but the vacuous arguments to justify it. It's 'benefiting the industry' says Rev Campbell. What a gibbering loon.

  • Schiraman #174 3 years ago

    @Gaol

    Um, no offence, but other than roundly insulting everyone here you disagree with - do you actually have anything useful to say? ;)

    I mean if you disagree so vehemently, it might serve your point better if you actually explained why.

  • Ryze #175 3 years ago

    CFW provides:

    - Running all content from MemStick. Battery life and load times improve. Gaming experience improves as games can be quickly started and changed while on the go.

    - 333MHz in any game. Improves frame rates in all 3D titles.

    - Running apps. No PSP YouTube in 2009? Glad I've got CFW then.

    - Running emulators. I tend to play my own games anyway (Megadrive and SNES classics. I'll buy a Mario Kart cartridge next time I'm in Cash Generator - just for the haters - it'd be an honor), but where's my legal alternative? PSNlol? I can't even play the original Mario Kart on the DS!

    - Media enhancements - more playback formats supported. Sony had to play catchup dropping the horrendous video playback restrictions. They recently added 'sequential video playback' as a firmware update. Oh thanks - they're so great for remembering that that existed 3-4 years after release.

    - plus more that you can google for.
    Edited by 1 at 23/04/09 @ 08:52

  • bad09 #176 3 years ago

    OK, not trying to troll here. Legitimate question. Outside of Piracy, what benefits does CFW give PSP users these days?
    I understand the emulator angle (which could still be classified as piracy if you want to be hard-line about it), and running games off the memory stick (which is something legitimate owners can do more and more often with new games), but is there anything in the media functionality that a legit PSP can't do?    ,

    Don't feel like trolling friend, I'm not god you can question my opinion!

    Well....


    1. You said yourself emulators. SAVED the psp for me in terms of playing MY games.

    2. CF means you don't have to beg SCEE for scraps. You want to play RE1/2/3, Oddworlds, Colony Wars, Parappa The Rapper, fear Effect? Why wait YEARS for the faint hope someone will sell you it on the platform you want?

    3. No GTA's on PSN

    4. No Tekken on PSN

    5. no SFA3 on PSN

    6. OK I'm cheating with each game not on PSN but you get the point.....

    Media wise, yes of course it's the same for official (unless you go down the CF route were other format are open to you...), but I mentioned that more to a pro for keeping the shitty (PSP gaming) console.

    EDIT - oh and everything Ryze said.

    EDIT (AGAIN) - Oooh forgot the inflated price on PSN (number 7)
    Edited by 3 at 22/04/09 @ 19:34

  • Gaol #177 3 years ago

    @Schiraman

    I shouldn't really have to explain the bloody obvious.

    I know several guys at work who downloaded the latest GTA game. They all bought games before flash carts became readily available. They all have plenty money. They are all big GTA fans.

    Thats three real world sales you can guarantee Rockstar would have had had piracy not been so easy.

    What makes me angry/insulting isn't folk that pirate and know fine well that they're morally up shit creek, but those that somehow justify it becauyse they are so far removed from the crime. It's like tax evasion, benefit fraud or any other kind of freeloading. What accounts for our standard of living is honest entrepreneurs doing hard work. Individually it might have little effect, but the combined result of all these lost sales is a smaller games development industry, less jobs and less wealth.

    It won't kill off the industry, that's bollocks because there is always a certain amount of honest folk that pay the going rate. Again it's a bit like tax evasion. Do you play the honest game and pay your dues or simply look out for number one and take all you can get by any means.

  • Rev.StuartCampbell #178 3 years ago

    "It's not the piracy itself that is shocking here, but the vacuous arguments to justify it. It's 'benefiting the industry' says Rev Campbell. What a gibbering loon."

    Yeah, what would I know? I've only been in the videogames industry for 20 years, both as journalist and developer, researching and cataloguing the effects of piracy for two decades and producing countless articles on the subject. You get a much more informed, balanced and reasoned viewpoint from some anonymous arsehole on the internet.

    ROFL ETC.

  • smelly #179 3 years ago

    Stuart Campbell says : "purely to piss off ignorant, ill-informed, pompous, self-important cretins like you. "


    Oooooooooooooh.. The irony....

    Personally - i think anyone who claims to like games (or indeed those people who are pissed off that all publishers are beginning to make more games for the casual audience who pirate less) - is a fucktard if they pirate games they were going to buy. And if you werent going to buy said game - why bother pirating it?

    But that's just my personal opinion.. Game Pirates are fucktards who have no right to then go "boo hoo, my console X doesnt have any "hardcore" games being made for it any more..." - see dreamcast, psp and ds.


    "Yeah, what would I know? I've only been in the videogames industry for 20 years, both as journalist and developer, "


    *cough* *COUGH*

    How long were you a "developer", or a "journalist" for that matter - and no, having your own webshite where you spilled shit filled crap which no-one but your most ardant of fanboy followers cares about doesnt count.
    Edited by 1 at 22/04/09 @ 19:53

  • Ryze #180 3 years ago

    Listywisty time:

    Stuff missing from PSP:

    GAMES:

    G-R-A-N T-U-R-I-S-M-O Give me a fucking demo! A track! A fucking car, you cocks! :D
    Devil May Cry
    Resident Evil
    Soul Calibur
    Virtua Fighter
    etc...

    PACMAN
    BRAID
    BOMBERMAN
    REZ
    all classic arcade games, shmups, platformers, beat 'em ups...
    etc...

    FEATURES:

    R-I-G-H-T A-N-A-L-O-G-U-E S-T-I-C-K - or get to fucking fuck - NO SALE on your 3rd person game with the stupid camera system if I'm going to stand still and hold a button to look around. NO SALE if your 1st person games all have you using left handed controls or aiming with 4 buttons.

    MEMORY STICK INSTALLS - either put a scratch off code for a free PSN download in every UMD case, or allow legal installs of PSP games which demand the disc is inserted every 10th game or some other method of authentication that doens't ruin FUNCTIONALITY or introduce unnecessary chores. Add an option where games can background install commonly used data to the memstick. I'd give up at least 1Gb as a flash cache.

    ONLINE SERVICE with cross platform messaging and friendslists. Is this really that difficult to accomplish?

    OPTION OF INTEGRATED STORAGE - yes, I'd like one with 8Gb flash built in or a large HDD. Apple managed this a very long time ago. Is it that difficult to do?

    etc...

  • smelly #181 3 years ago

    "'My mate' doesn't pirate World of Wacraft, because he can't. He doesn't pirate Steam games, because it's easier to pay and they're at a reasonable price. This is a problem which can be solved by design, rather than law."


    So you want ALL games to be online MMOs or only available via downloadable means with DRM then?

  • smelly #182 3 years ago

    I do find it ironic that someone who MAKES money about writing (copyrighted) material on games - feels so at ease about pirating them.

    Talk about biting the hand which feeds you.

  • beckyh #183 3 years ago

    Yeah, what would I know? I've only been in the videogames industry for 20 years, both as journalist and developer, researching and cataloguing the effects of piracy for two decades and producing countless articles on the subject.

    So as a developer, how does piracy benefit your business?

  • Gaol #184 3 years ago

    @Rev

    If you don't want the views of 'anonymous arseholes' you came to the wrong place :p

  • CaoSlayer #185 3 years ago

    Fix UMD.

    I even pirate the games I own because playing them in a UMD is hell.

  • webcider #186 3 years ago

    Yeah just make them MMO im pretty sure that will only bite the publishers in their ass because i certainly and a many others absolutely hate MMO. So no cash from me thats for sure and currrent MMO players are playing 3-4 year old mmo which is well etabled i think you need some insane rethinking on MMO if you are going to take players from one mmo to the other.

    As MMO time spans are endless its not really something that publishers would be smart to go for from a business standpoint.
    Undless ofcourse the pay per month method is a way to gain profit but when people has that sort of agreement im sure they aren't just moving on to more mmo. so in conclusion some MMO will profitable but doubtful all :)

    Single player games has way stronger means to be succesful (piracy or not) i think.

  • smelly #187 3 years ago

    @beckyh: "So as a developer, how does piracy benefit your business? "


    He's not a developer.. he worked for sensible software years and years ago and thats it.

    Some would argue he's not exactly a journalist either (except in his own mind)
    Edited by 1 at 22/04/09 @ 20:16

  • Spekingur #188 3 years ago

    You know, over the internet you can be whatever you like. And probably get away with it.
    For example, I am the King of Greenland. And I say that there's way too much generalizing going on.

  • secombe #189 3 years ago

    The fundamental problem is the essence of the PlayStation Portable it is in fact a Portable PlayStation 1,5 with poorer controls.

    Nail + Head

    The Game Gear (amongst others) proved that 'portable consoles' aren't really what people want, they want genuinely portable handheld systems, with games built specifically for that market. Offering a title that needs an hour+ thrown at it every time is missing the point entirely, people generally want games they can pick up and play for as long as they want, be it 5 minutes or 2hrs.

    I've never seen a PSP on a bus, train, in the staffroom or on a beach, it just doesn't work (for the masses) in that way, it's more of a 'play on the sofa' system, which in my opinion is only going to have limited reach.

  • toy_brain #190 3 years ago

    Ryze / Bad09, thanks for the lists. I like to check up on what CFW is offering every now and then - seems like there isnt much point in me switching as I'm not one for emulators. Being able to run any game off the stick wold be nice, but rather oddly, I find that the PSN-downloaded games I do have dont make the battery last any longer than a UMD game. Maybe there is an extra 30mins in it, but honestly it seems about the same.

  • bad09 #191 3 years ago

    @ toy_brain

    Trust me, in terms of portable (for consoles and home viewing I still prefer my boxes and extras) games/media on a MS are a joy compared to UMD. Silly, silly Sony.....

    Anyway I'm out, I'm off to enjoy media I didn't pay for....

    / hugs valve again

    / high fives a candy stealing pirate to get back on subject

  • Ryze #192 3 years ago

    ^ No probs. I really want to love my PSP.

    For example, I'm a little sick of having to copy all of my God of War saves from memstick to mem stick because I'm swapping between photo, music, video and game sticks. Shouldn't they all be saved in the console with my profile(s)?

    I still play GoW off of UMD - but it's only because I dl'd a version from the wrong region after the game arrived in the post quickly from Asda.com.



  • Ryze #193 3 years ago

    ^ So obviously that was a lost sale for Sony.

    Oh wait!?!?

  • smelly #194 3 years ago

    So you justify piracy by saying that not ALL piracy is a lost sale? Which of course is true.

    But doesnt disprove that a percentage of pirates wouldve bought the game they were so desperate to play (thus the reason they pirated it) if they couldnt find the pirated version.

  • GamesConnoisseur #195 3 years ago

    Very darn interesting thread, this is a debate which we need to be open minded on. I am the one who used to pirated a lot of games (recently DS).

    I did so I can get games without paying and play them.

    Simple as that, and 'course the side benefits is to try out games I m not sure about but very rarely if I really liked the game i went out and buy the retail version?! Never!

    Sure the ease of piracy can generate more hardware sales, but if publishers see there is little business for them to make games for that platform then eventually the games/quality titles will dry up.

    At end of day its all about money for both consumer and business, there need to be a balance of cost/benefit to both and consumers can always refuse to buy products they felt not worthwhile.

    Fudging piracy as a mere civil offence, is cheap even if that is actually the correct legal interpretation. It is just dodging the rationality of the issue, which is the morality of it. If piracy is see as acceptable, becomes the norm and then easier, the business of that platform will just DRY up and the quality of titles would not be as good as where the business would be thriving and alive.

    YOU as gamer count as an important part of the delicate balance.

  • toy_brain #196 3 years ago

    "Trust me, in terms of portable (for consoles and home viewing I still prefer my boxes and extras) games/media on a MS are a joy compared to UMD. Silly, silly Sony....."
    Oh I'm aware of that. I have Pipemania, CTR, Kula World and Super Stardust on memory stick and its great to be able to swap between them without fiddiling with UMD's. But putting up with UMD's isnt -that- irritating. 10 seconds to swap then out - its hardly taking chunks out of my potential gameplaying time :p

  • smelly #197 3 years ago

    @GamesCon: "Sure the ease of piracy can generate more hardware sales"


    But if the hardware is being sold at a loss - with intention of making money back on software....

    If you bought a games machine, and the hardware manufacturer was relying on you buying at least 2 or 3 games for said system, but you didnt - you pirated them all. Then you've just lost said hardware manufacturer money.

    (and obviously that's before you factor in 3rd parties making said game)


  • napalm68 #198 3 years ago

    I'm on Sony's side on this all the way. It isn't like legit PSP games are expensive anyhow.

    I wonder what proportion of it it actually is though. I mean you go to PSP forums and not many people run custom firmware. Too much trouble honestly. I'm an electronics engineer working in IT and I can't be stuffed. I have been tempted to get CFW on it for one thing only - a screen shot capability make it easier to do screen caps for reviews and guides, something Sony should put in the official firmware... I never did though as too much bother.

  • Pro_Gamer #199 3 years ago

    "I mean you go to PSP forums and not many people run custom firmware. Too much trouble honestly. I'm an electronics engineer working in IT and I can't be stuffed."

    Right. Too much trouble to spend 5 minutes installing a custom firmware. And you say you work as an engineer.... LOL!

  • dacicus #200 3 years ago

    Late versions of PSP 2k and PSP 3k are still uncracked. So their excuse doesn't add up. Not the piracy is killing the PSP. The total lack of the support is doning that. I use my PSP for anything, but playing. There are very few good games on it, so I don't care about it any more. Sony should have brought the lots of game they are releasing in Japan for the japanese market and they could have dropped the english dub in the favor of the original voice acting accompanied by english subtitles. They never did it. Now they are saying that the piracy is the guilty part, when I see only a short-sighted company...I'll add to that, the fact that nintendo DS it's even worse pirated, but still makes bigger sales (for every c..p game for DS, the sales are insane).
    I wonder what's their excuse for PS3 not doing so hot? Certainly they can't blame piracy for that. They can only blame themselves. You don't launch a new console, without making sure that you have the support of the third party developers. And many big developers are running away from PS3, because of the developing kit being hard to use and the costs for making a PS3 are pretty high, while the profit is not as big as they want.

  • bad09 #201 3 years ago

    "Oh I'm aware of that. I have Pipemania, CTR, Kula World and Super Stardust on memory stick and its great to be able to swap between them without fiddiling with UMD's. But putting up with UMD's isnt -that- irritating. 10 seconds to swap then out - its hardly taking chunks out of my potential gameplaying time :p"

    Well, true actually changing them out is no biggie, but carrying them is. Playstation P-O-R-T-A-B-L-E....

    Besides for me, carrying a SNES, old arcade cabinets, a MD, an Amiga, a PS1 and A DVD is a bit much! :)

    No on the stick for me, that's why I'll never go back official, many of the PSP games I play are not on PSN and the UMDS are long gone - and I'd still need to buy again if I went official and wanted them on the MS. Not doing that...

    Consumers shouted that to Sony as soon as CF hit, we've all been screaming it, yet I still cannot stick my own PS1/PSP on a PS3 and put it on my PSP, for video I cannot rip a DVD/blu to watch on PSP from PS3 and I still have to convert to the right format, I need PC and CF to do most of these things.

    How did Sony respond to our screaming anyway? Once again, was slow on giving us what we actually wanted when DA came along, and are charging a small fortune now they are, and trying to lock out our own stuff with a unhackable PSP, they deserve both hacking AND the piracy IMO (sorry talking Sony always gets me mad nowadays, damn PS3/PSP. WASTED OPPORTUNITY IMO!)

    Edited by 1 at 23/04/09 @ 08:35

  • Ryze #202 3 years ago

    ^ This.

    Why can't my supercomputer PS3 take a PS1 CD game that I insert into its slot, rip and compress it, and transfer it to my PSP?

    I'd like to move Driver 2 and Spiderman over. How do I do that? OH! By downloading the torrents of these games that are up on my shelf! Then this must mean lost sales for Sony then? No?

    OK, then - Outrun 2006 on PSP. Tiny storage footprint, runs best at 333MHz. It's only a 100oddMb ISO (if I recall correctly), and the PSP had no option for devs to use 333MHz at release. I play in short bursts, so why am I going to swap a UMD just to fire up the game for one go?

    So the Xbox 360 is better at providing a portable / arcade console experience, than a PORTABLE console. Idiots.

    Same goes for Street Fighter Alpha 3, except in addition, upon release NOBODY COULD PLAY THE FUCKING GAME AT ALL, due to the fucking diagonals NOT WORKING on the D-pad. This is worse than on the 360, where you just replace the control pad.

    I can imagine that many PSP owners just replaced their PSP - with something else. So they didn't think to test that their d-pad worked, eh? Idiots. Many PSP owners would have SOLD THE FUCKING THING IF IT WASN'T FOR CFW and torrents. Now release the new console with the required features, service and regularly released titles, and convert those users into paying customers.

    As for Sony's current situation: Cry me a fucking river. You reap what you sow.

    Annoyed Gamer.
    Edited by 3 at 23/04/09 @ 10:47

  • SlackMaster #203 3 years ago

    The pre-owened games market is doing far more damage to the industry than piracy ever will and yet that is legal. Too many people on their moral high horses talking about things that make little difference to the industry.

  • kangarootoo #204 3 years ago

    @Ryze

    Man, you really are very angry aren't you :)

  • FortysixterUK #205 3 years ago

    50 million downloads of the PSPS version of resistance?
    FIFTY MILLION...have you any idea how many that is? Can you actually visualise this many games ?
    I doubt if 50 million games are sold across all the formats combined in a year.
    He was exagerating or was seriously mis-quoted...5000 yes, 50,000 maybe,at a massive outside chance...50 million...fuck right off.

    Drop the price of games...no game should EVER be more that 14.99 on ANY format...you would sell them by the shedload as at £14.99 it's just not worth the bother in pirating a given title.

    Piracy will always exist whilst companies demand huge premiums for their games.

    And if the games industry collapses under the weight of its own greed, so what, something else will come along to entertain you.
    ( and yes, gaming is my religion, but keep some perspective here folks, gaming is, and always has been, about greed )

  • kangarootoo #206 3 years ago

    "Piracy will always exist whilst companies demand huge premiums for their games"

    Huge premiums?

    When I was a nipper a premium game on the C64 cost about £8. I'm not quite sure what that is by today's standards, but games are damn sight cheaper now than they were 25 years ago.

    Price and value are relative things. If games all cost £14.99 but nothing else changed, it wouldn't be long before piracy behaviour was exactly the way it is right now. When you are only comparing cost against free, you will always lose. Value can be incoporated in other ways. Convenience, support, community, special content. These are the things that add value. The price of video games is simply not the issue that is being suggested.

  • Meho #207 3 years ago

    Heh... Read my lips Sony:

    If I couldn't 'compromise' my PSP I wouldn't have bought it in the first place. Then you would have lost much more money than what you claim you have lost through me downloading games. I have a shelf FULL of PSP games (many of them published by Sony, like GoW, Patapon 1 & 2, Loco Roco 1 & 2...), all of them purchased legitimately and all of them played off ripped images rather than off the UMD because it's more convenient and sucks less energy from the crappy battery you had produced.

    Seriously, get a fucking grip Sony. I downloaded the demo for Resistance and thought it was SHITE. I would have never bought it if the nice torrent site didn't give me the opportunity to sample some more of the game. Don't be stupid, be smart. Make good games, provide good services and the profit will come.

  • Ryze #208 3 years ago

    ^ THIS

    I like my PS3 at the moment, because I managed to get a PS2 compat model for cheap (£216), and I ignore all of the nonsense (Homelol, PSNlol), and just use it for AAA, PS2 games, the web browser and Blu-Rays.

    As it stands, it doesn't get used very much - so if the new games stopped coming, and the console was hacked, then what do you think would happen next?
    Edited by 1 at 23/04/09 @ 11:04

  • Ryze #209 3 years ago

    ^ Who are you even replying to? Such nonsense.

  • Meho #210 3 years ago

    "But cracking your PSP and using pirated games do not send a message that says "hey sony, service and product not so good make them them better"

    All it says "I downloaded some pirated games and didn't pay for them" "

    But it doesn't, that's my argument. This is the conventional wisdom... Actually not even wisdom, this is just the party line the publishers keep repeating even though they haven't a clue about the real situation. I have purchased five games in the last eight days, paid for with real money even though they have already been on my harddrive in the form of pirated, non-legit copies. Can publishers of Braid, And Yet it Moves, Zeno Clash, The Path and Space Giraffe actually look at me and say 'you sir stole from us!' when I merely used the pirated copies as samples (in some cases the games didn't have demos, in others I wanted to see more of the game) and then went out and bought the games. It is exactly the same for PSP, with the added value of me not having to use the ridiculous UMD drive juice-sink to play my games. I preordered Loco roco 2 after playing the pirated leaked beta for Allah's sake...

    Now, I am not saying that everyone out there using pirated games is a good customer but the industry by and large doesn't KNOW anything about it and they just keep parrotting the line about piracy killing their business when in many cases it's just them failing to understand the changing nature of the business.

  • VicViper #211 3 years ago

    @Meho

    yes very true, you downloaded the games then bought them. Theres no way that the publisher/developer would be able to tell this, also very true the problem is the the downloading of the games added to the piracy stats. Say you have a game and 1million people download it and we get 500 thousand buy it, 250 000 of those downloaded it first and then bought. The problem is those numbers still look from a developer stand point a disaster. Many games do not get demos, maybe that is the fault of the developer but then demos take time and man power from the actual development (well I am basing that statement on what developers say so Maybe?) if the 250k people had just bought the game from the start the figures for the piracy would not be so bad.

    what I am arguing is that just because then game comes on a UMD is not an excuse for not buying the stupid disc based media, saying that your using the PSP to its full capabilites and downloading your game via a torrent and then playing it that way just gives Sony more numbers to use as an excuse for not getting better games.

  • Rev.StuartCampbell #212 3 years ago

    "what I am arguing is that just because then game comes on a UMD is not an excuse for not buying the stupid disc based media, saying that your using the PSP to its full capabilites and downloading your game via a torrent and then playing it that way just gives Sony more numbers to use as an excuse for not getting better games."

    You might want to argue something that makes some kind of coherent sense in English.

  • kangarootoo #213 3 years ago

    ^ nothing of value to contribute.

    /sigh

  • Ryze #214 3 years ago

    So VicViper, you deleted your comment, due to the nonsense that was contained within?

  • VicViper #215 3 years ago

    @Ryze

    My apathy for this arguement has grown such that I don't care. You've clearly justified with yourself that is ok to pirate games because your sticking it to Sony and making them improve the PSP or its games. This won't work but then I neither work for Sony or Pirate games, now anyway back in the days of the Dreamcast I did have a preloader disc, maybe Sony is thinking the need to make a better PSP but not the way your thinking.

    The next one will be made a DRM/authencation nightmare and everyone will complain and bitch but people pirated games, maybe they did to try the game first, maybe because they couldn't afford games or they wanted to play retro games but yet you downloaded the game added +1 to a pirating statistic and gave them and excuse to work on anti hack firmware updates and excuse piss poor games and sales/marketing. Even if you did buy the game after all.

    And the end of the day you downloaded an Illegal/pirated/stolen/insert own definition version of the game.
    Edited by 3 at 23/04/09 @ 16:45

  • webcider #216 3 years ago

    If they put anti-hack and drm on their new stuff.

    I think people would stop buying those unless they are as attractive as the PSP with hacks.
    So sony are only losing money not gaining.

    However i guess they figure that out when they can't run the PSP business because no one buys their stuff.

  • VicViper #217 3 years ago

    @webcider

    Well I don't really have a answer for that, you hear about people not buying games for the PC due to DRM, the games gets pirated anyway and people use the DRM as a reason for that. They remove the DRM and all that does is make it easier to pirate. DJ Max 2(PSP) has some sort of anti-pircay code that has stop many from pirating it so its not as if they don't have the tech at the minute ready to go.

    All the producer wants to do is protect their product and source of income, I can't fault them for that or for complaining when people take it for free and don't pay.
    Edited by 1 at 23/04/09 @ 16:12

  • Ryze #218 3 years ago

    I don't debate with idiots who can't read. Sony can do as they wish, but it wont be bought en masse unless it appeals to the masses. People wont invest if they're having their time wasted by a broken or incomplete product.

    Enjoy your life being a cock.

    Good day.
    Edited by 1 at 23/04/09 @ 16:35

  • Grom #219 3 years ago

    Stuart, if I become a subscriber to your site and then copy everything (apart from the poker deal) onto a website or into a torrent and make it available for free, and publicise my site on various web forums to match the ubiquitous nature of game torrent information, will you try and stop me?

  • SEVQA #220 3 years ago

    I think these comments would have been bang on with the first PSP skews, now it's just serious no shit Sherlock award for an overpaid exec!

    (I mean a ten year old could have told Sony about this issue 4 years ago!)

  • VicViper #221 3 years ago

    @Ryze

    Aww don't be like that, I'm hurt, emotionally not physically of course, I even removed my admittly petty part of the comment and yes the removed comment did come across as nonsense, I didn't articulate my point well.

    Look the only thing I had a problem with was your justification for downloading/using pirated software.
    Of course consumers should be protected against bad products no argument there why then does using pirated versions seem allowable in gaming where I sure if buy a fake Sony Bravio to 'test' it before getting a legit one (yeah I grasping at straws) would seem more illegal. You have a right to complain about a service and a product everyone does, no one wants to buy broken games or really bad ones.

    I went back and re-read the post that made me post in the first place (out loud to myself even) by you which has the following

    I unlocked my PSP out of sheer frustration having a paperweight doing nothing sat in my bedroom. a £179.99 paperweight. Sony needs to wake up and start catering for gamers' needs - otherwise they can fuck right off and quit the gaming business.

    This seems a prefectly reasonable thing to do, you want a fully used handheld device that has the games you need and want with all the multimedia functionality, me too, more power to us. The message Sony gets from this is that they need better anti-pirate software and firmware, hell if getting my PSP cracked would get me DMC portable or ZOE portable or grand turismo I'd do it in a hearbeat. Thats all I'm saying, cracking you PSP and downloading pirate version even if you buy the game anyway does not send a good message to anyone.
    Edited by 3 at 23/04/09 @ 17:31

  • Zaltan #222 3 years ago

    Probably has been said but... Somalian Piracy is worse.

  • Rev.StuartCampbell #223 3 years ago

    "Stuart, if I become a subscriber to your site and then copy everything (apart from the poker deal) onto a website or into a torrent and make it available for free, and publicise my site on various web forums to match the ubiquitous nature of game torrent information, will you try and stop me?"

    Try it and see!

  • Meho #224 3 years ago

    "what I am arguing is that just because then game comes on a UMD is not an excuse for not buying the stupid disc based media"

    Er... But I am buying games on UMD, that's my whole point. I am a good customer to Sony. In fact, let me count them: there are 26 boxed PSP games sitting to my right as I type this, all mine, all purchased in a store at regular prices, not second hand. So Sony saying that I was wrong for downloading God of War Chains of Olympus when in fact I just wanted to see it ahead of time and then went out and bought it because I was pleased with what I have seen, that's just plain wrong.

    "saying that your using the PSP to its full capabilites and downloading your game via a torrent and then playing it that way just gives Sony more numbers to use as an excuse for not getting better games. "

    And this is also a strange thing to say. What you're essentially saying is: Sony is wrong in calling you a thief and you are right for being a good customer, but you should pretend that Sony is right because that way they will stop treating you like a thief... which you are not, and start treating you like a good customer... because they will have a proof you were a thief through your silent admition."

    To make a crude analogy:

    Sony: "People wearing baggy trousers are all shoplifters, muggers and some of them are rapists. Everyone should stop wearing baggy trousers because those things cause crime to explode."

    Me: "I wear baggy trousers, but I am neither a shoplifter, nor a mugger, let alone a rapist. Accussing baggy trousers of somehow causing crime is fucking ridiculous and is diverting everyone's attention from the real issues."

    You: "You are right, baggy trousers do not cause crime and more over, many people wearing them are not criminals, yet you should do as Sony says and stop wearing baggy trousers because that way Sony will see we mean well."

    At least this is what it looks like to me. Educating people about the damage they are causing through piracy, I am all for that. Educating people to act responsibly, yes. But saying piracy is killing business with no data to support it is not just stupid, it's arrogant, ignorant and shows disrespect to everyone (not referring to anyone here, but to companies). World of Goo and Sins of a Solar Empire both made a lot of profit despite having no copy protection to speak of. Not just because they were cheap to make, and certainly not because people somehow magically stopped pirating them out of a sense of solidarity, but because they were great games that a lot of positive buzz was created for through word of mouth and people just bough them. Piracy may have contributed to this and it may have detracted, the thing is, smart business people know how to make a profit, not insult their customers and even convert 'pirates' into customers. Look at Valve: Counter Strike has been free for years before they started charging money for it and yet, that game made them GAZZILLIONS of dollars. Look at Sony: they have crated Patapon, a game that could have sonquered the world, yet they utterly failed in capitalising on it. Nothing to do with piracy on the PSP and everything to do with poorly thought out marketing and business planning.

  • VicViper #225 3 years ago

    Meho, Yeah thats pretty much it to be honest. Well said. I can't really add anything to that the analogy says it all. I suppose Sony can only see the criminals wear the baggy trousers because of the damage they do they can't see those who aren't criminals who do wear them but support Sony and only want Sony to make baggy trousers too.
    Edited by 2 at 23/04/09 @ 19:47

  • Meho #226 3 years ago

    This IS the Internet, calling people names is how we communicate. Using dodgy baggy trousers analogies is... weird. Either way, to clarify my point yet again: piracy IS certainly hurting business. Nobody knows to what extent and accussing it of causing lousy sales of poorly made and marketed products is lazy and wrong.

    Moreover, piracy helps spread gaming culture and sows the seeds for future customers. 20 years ago you simply couldn't purchase legit games in my country. There were no distributors, no retail points, not even second hand sellers. My first legally purchased game was purchased in 1988, in Brighton, on my summer visit and up to that point all I had were pirated cassette tapes that were the only way for a kid to get to play games in my country. Today I buy some 5-6 games per month, in shops or online despite the fact that piracy today is way easier and more convenient than it was in 1988. Were it not for pirated games back then (and in between), would I still be playing (and buying) games today? Highly unlikely. Piracy creates nascent markets that smart business then embraces and cultivates (again something that Valve are good at). Look at Ukraina: a pirate heaven, yet a country where you have several very successful game developers making good profit from among others local market.

  • Ryze #227 3 years ago

    I think that Sony are an unfortunate victim of the current financial climate.

    Sony really seem to want to make changes and adapt to the modern landscape, but are repeatedly beaten by companies who are better at delivering software and network services.

    Sony were supposed to have teamed up with Sega of America after their success with the Megadrive, and Sony's expertise with hardware and the CD format. Sega of Japan scuppered the deal, and the rest is history.

    The Sony / Sega (america) combination, with people like Tom Kalinske and Peter Moore behind the scenes, and Yuji Naka and Fumido Ueda making games?? Unstoppable.

    Sony appear to be great at making cool hardware. The PSP and PS3 are sexy pieces of kit. Once the novelty wears off, we need functionality and relevance.

    This is where they're lacking, as Apple, Microsoft and Nintendo continually highlight. It would be FANTASTIC if the PS3 had the functionality, software and services of the 360 and Wii.

    The same goes for the PSP - if it had even a portion of the (legal) gaming functionality and services that the GP2X, iPhone and Xbox live offer, then they'd be onto a winner. The hardware can do this - it needs a few tweaks, but I know what is possible on computer hardware, given the right software engineering and expertise.

    Apple have been WAY ahead of the curve with the iPod + iTunes infrastructure. Nintendo have had great 1st party appeal and quality, but messed up last gen. They came back in fine form with the Wii's MARKETING and concept. They offered people a real 'next gen' (smoke and waggle mirrors) fun experience. Sega lost me back after the Mega CD, 32X and Saturn nonsense. They needed help with hardware. MS have been forced to belt up with their hardware, but have faltered ridiculously. Their service is so fantastic, that it keeps Darren & smelly et al coming back after 6+ failed consoles.

    Would anyone who's only into games go through 6 broken PSPs or PS3s? They would if the services / software / functionality they offered was unmissable as a gamer!

    Sony need to make themselves indispensable. I can't get Xbox live anywhere but on an Xbox. iTunes is an Apple product, and the barrier to entry is low these days. iTunes has been at least a download on my HDD waiting to be installed, since the PC version was released.

    There's absolutely no reason why anyone needs to download the PSP Media Manager. It even has a stupid name - like the PSP's 'Ad-Hoc' and 'Infrastructure' modes. WTF? So - let me help Sony for a moment - call them 'local play' and 'Online play'. At least ACT like you gave a shit instead of grabbing the geek jargon and pasting it in your manuals and on your marketing shite.

    Marketing shite talk and Sony have become kissing cousins. This is a good place to stop typing.

    /grabs beer
    Edited by 1 at 23/04/09 @ 20:50

  • bad09 #228 3 years ago

    You know what I turned on my PS3 tonight, for a change from media I looked at my sorry games collection and pitiful PS1 "classics" on it (plus PS3 on the shelf). they better prey DA doesn't crack something else not worth paying for.....

    ...then they would REALLY cry!
    Edited by 1 at 23/04/09 @ 21:56

  • Rev.StuartCampbell #229 3 years ago

    "like the PSP's 'Ad-Hoc' and 'Infrastructure' modes. WTF? So - let me help Sony for a moment - call them 'local play' and 'Online play'."

    IS THAT WHAT THOSE MEAN?

    Man! I learned something useful from this thread after all!

  • dsmx #230 3 years ago

    +1 meho for mentioning patapon, patapon 2 is the best game I've played in years yet there has been little to NO MARKETING FOR IT. How do you expect things to sell if no-one knows about it.

  • Meho #231 3 years ago

    That's just an example of Sony not being sure what they want or how to position themselves in the market. First off, they create a brand image for the console that says 'cool, urban gadget for people in their twenties'. Then they create utterly fantastic first party games like Loco Roco and Patapon that look like they were made for kids (even though.. they are not) and are at a loss how to market them to the supposed target group of cool, urban twentysomethings who, presumably want to play Gran Tourismo on their slick, sexy gadgets. Sony utterly fails at actually bringing Gran Tourismo to PSP but will probably bitch and moan about people flashing their consoles and ripping PSX versions of the game to play them on the go.

    Then comes Little Big Planet. Sony says that this, THIS is what they are all about, not shooting space nazis in their faces in Killzone 2, but being creative and family friendly and in love of everything colourful. It doesn't sell as well as it was supposed to because you can only appeal to the 'Wii crowd' so much before they say 'well, that looks nice I guess but the console is just too damn expensive'. But Sony at least tries this way. Then they make Patapon 2, presumably because this time around they can rely on the brand name (the first game was somewhat of a cult hit after all) and because Little Big Planet experience gives them some directions they can take. However, yet again, they utterly fail in actually informing the world about this excellent game, what it is about and who could be having fun playing it.

    So where does that leave us? Obviously: it's the piracy!!!! Let's just ignore the fact that if it weren't for The Pirate Bay most people I know wouldn't even know Patapon 2 was out (I downloaded the Japanese version, for Allah's sake and bought the game on the first day when it was available in shops here).

    I enjoy my PSP and I will almost certainly buy several games for it by the end of the year, LBP for PSP among them. But I am a gamer who has played on a gazzillion of systems over several decades. I follow gaming news. I know names of developers of games. I even know names of composers of game music from the eighties and from the 21st century. I have been a great customer to the industry over the years (well, make that decades too) and, as long as I can afford it, I will go on purchasing games. And yet Sony thinks that Iam the problem because I download torrents??? Meanwhile, there are literally millions of gamers out there who could have purchased Patapon 2 if only you told them what it is and what it is about.

  • kangarootoo #232 3 years ago

    "like the PSP's 'Ad-Hoc' and 'Infrastructure' modes. WTF? So - let me help Sony for a moment - call them 'local play' and 'Online play'"

    I agree the current names are ludicrous (chosen by the engineers that coded them I suspect), but calling them "local" and "online" isn't really accurate either. As I understand it "peer to peer" and "via an established network" might be more accurate terms (if still ridiculously wordy). The infrastructure mode can still work even if the internet isn't involved.

  • Ryze #233 3 years ago

    Are you sure you don't already work for them with those terms, kanga?

  • bad09 #234 3 years ago

    Right I've been thinking. All this talk of stealing and devs/pubs loosing money/dying right?

    OK, what about a magic word...CHARITY. Hear me out I work in a charity so I kind of understand, we all like a good cause yeah? Right now, like I said many file sharers/bootleg buying people are broke or fairly skint (enough to buy cheap knock off or download), like it or not them the facts people...so let 'em download.....

    Strange I know, but me personally I don't do this "why should I pay and not them!!" angry bull (I save my anger for the companies themselves who make a right rip out of us - ALL OF THEM!). Why not just "ignore" file sharing etc. release GOOD/AFFORDABLE products across DVD/blu/music/games/downloads etc, and us rich mofos will buy, easy. EVERYBODY WINS.............

    EDIT - Oh and don't forget DRM FREE!

    Oh and Sony, unlock the power of the playstation brand like you promised, I have to do it myself, and I still need a separate PS2 to do it.....
    Edited by 2 at 24/04/09 @ 18:36

  • FortysixterUK #235 3 years ago

    KANGAROOTOO wrote:_>

    "Piracy will always exist whilst companies demand huge premiums for their games"

    Huge premiums?

    When I was a nipper a premium game on the C64 cost about £8. I'm not quite sure what that is by today's standards, but games are damn sight cheaper now than they were 25 years ago.

    Price and value are relative things. If games all cost £14.99 but nothing else changed, it wouldn't be long before piracy behaviour was exactly the way it is right now. When you are only comparing cost against free, you will always lose. Value can be incoporated in other ways. Convenience, support, community, special content. These are the things that add value. The price of video games is simply not the issue that is being suggested.
    ------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------------------------------------ ----------------------------------

    I stand by the comment, when the Amiga and C64 were the big consoles, new release games were normally £9.99 for tape and £14.99 for 5/14 disc ( c64 ) and all new Amiga releases were £14.99 to £19.99. Those were premium prices then ( in the 80s ), and I still think £30.00 _£40.00 for a new game is a premium price is is the key contributing factor to piracy.

    What else is the major motivator for piracy if not the price of original software ? I really think that if you believe it's anything else you are living in a slightly different reality to the rest of us.

    A Max software price of £14.99 ( and by extension a scuppering of the 2nd hand market ) would improve the games industry no end.

    To duplicate todays console games ( well 360 and ps3 ) you need quality Dual layer DVDs or BR Discs, and the software to rip/burn and the drives to burn. All of which is costly, and when it becomes apparent its easier to just buy a game at £14.99 than it is to rip/copy/burn, then I think you would see a noticeable and much needed downturn in games piracy. And a much needed upturn in game sales.