Microsoft drops internal Natal chip

By Games Industry.biz Published 7 January, 2010

To allow updates and cost savings.

Microsoft has dropped a chip from its forthcoming Natal motion control system to save money, according to our sister site GamesIndustry.biz.

The chip, which was responsible for processing information for the Natal's 'bone system', has apparently been removed in favour of a software solution.

However, development sources have indicated that the change doesn't affect the existing system lag of about 100ms, while a software solution should enable Microsoft to update the system more quickly and regularly than a hardware one, and allow it to hit a speculated price point of less than £50.

The same development sources said that Natal should be able to operate at similar levels of latency to press demos at E3 and gamescom last year despite the change, suggesting it's less than ideal for games like Burnout but pretty good for less twitchy activities.

The load previously handled by the chip now falls on one of the main three Xenon processors, but while taking a "percentage" of performance away from the system, most games don't use up 100 per cent of the available processing power anyway.

"The full Natal hardware/sensor combo always looked like an expensive proposition in a market where Microsoft really needs to turn a profit," commented Eurogamer technology editor Richard Leadbetter, who helped research the story.

"The notion of offloading the processing to the Xbox 360 CPU in the name of lower costs and easier upgradability makes sense. Patching up older games to run with the new hardware now looks rather unlikely unless they have the CPU time to spare, but hopefully this will serve to focus developers on Natal-specific concepts as opposed to revisiting old classics."

The removal of the chip almost guarantees that non-Natal games won't be patched to include motion control support, a point previously outlined by Microsoft Game Studios' Kudo Tsunoda.

"I doubt we'll see any kind of watering down of the Natal concept with this news," Leadbetter continued, "but I'm not so sure about the comments on latency. My experience with Natal at gamescom suggests that the lag is considerably higher than that of a Guitar Hero peripheral. It'll be interesting to see if optimisation of the software layer improves this situation."

Microsoft recently hinted that there was no longer an on-chip solution for Natal in CES literature: "A proprietary software layer makes the magic of Project Natal possible," it said. "This layer differentiates Project Natal from any other technology on the market through its ability to enable human body recognition and extract other visual noise."

It has also emerged that Microsoft will support developers writing their own code to run the bone system processing in the future.

Motion control is likely to be the key battleground for Xbox and PlayStation platform holders in 2010, with both Natal and the Sony's new motion control system set for release. Project Natal is due out "holiday 2010".

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Comments (74) Latest comment 2 years ago

Comments threads automatically close after 30 days, but please feel free to continue chatting on the forum!

  • Dizzy #1 2 years ago

    Not so good news IMHO. As a dev I would like Natal to have a 0% hit on my game especially if I am a multiplatform developer (which I am not really but still...).

  • AaronTurner #2 2 years ago

    That's a shame, 100ms seems alot of lag.

  • systems #3 2 years ago

    They've got no choice if they're aiming for the £50 region and still want profit. I was expecting Natal (with chip) to be pushing toward the £75 range. The crappy Live Vision camera is about £25 and I'd hope this is more useful that that was.

  • linksdad #4 2 years ago

    This bodes less well for interoperability between 360 pc and 720.

    Will doing this up the bandwidth requirement of the unit, passing raw data instead of clean processed data?

    If they feel the need to update, does that mean they wont have it quite right at launch?

  • dr_shambles #5 2 years ago

    £50?! How long til this gets the RROD too?

    Can imagine the build quality being flawless. Ahem.

    Want to like Natal I really do...

  • miiiguel #6 2 years ago

    "This bodes less well for interoperability between 360 pc and 720. "

    Why? I think it's the oposite.

  • teabagger #7 2 years ago

    I don't think this will make much difference. The nature of Natal suggests to me we'll see it mostly for games designed for it from the ground up and it's not a massive deal to factor the processing cost into development. It's just like any other decision made on a daily basis when it comes to 'what we can afford on the platform'.

    Also, the raw data is likely pretty small if you're talking about 12-20 coordinates at say 30Htz so I seriously doubt bandwidth over USB will be an issue given that you can transfer up to around 300Mbps depending on bus conditions.
    Edited by 1 at 07/01/10 @ 12:13

  • darkmorgado #8 2 years ago

    £50????
    SOLD!
    That's the magic price point as far as I'm concerned. If it comes with bundled games, its even better.

  • Dizzy #9 2 years ago

    "Will doing this up the bandwidth requirement of the unit, passing raw data instead of clean processed data? "

    Yes. Potentially eating up more RAM as well since the OS needs to receive this data and do something with it. Like I said before. Bad news for Natal. I thought one of the strengths of Natal was the 0% impact on game performance so devs would simple include Natal options without worrying about their game running different without Natal or on a PS3. Pity.

    "I don't think this will make much difference. The nature of Natal suggests to me we'll see it mostly for games designed for it from the ground up "

    True... if this is the case than it won't matter. Natal will be *only* a Wii competitor/killer then. It could be a bit more IMHO.
    Edited by 1 at 07/01/10 @ 12:15

  • Beano #10 2 years ago

    This doesn't bode well for Natal...at least for using the tech for known gametypes. This will cause more input lag for sure, especially when it's only 30fps scanning. I'm surprised they first promised processing in the device and now "pulls a Sony" by removing the chip to make it cheaper.
    Edited by 1 at 07/01/10 @ 12:15

  • Vroom #11 2 years ago

    This will also mean less CPU intensive games taking up the chance to implement Natal. i.e. this may send developers more down a wii route than pushing better looking stuff like Gears.

  • tobsen #12 2 years ago

    Lag is already the biggest technological annoyance of contemporary gaming in my book and it seems that in the future it will only get worse instead of better... too bad!

  • Psychotext #13 2 years ago

    Seems to be a lot of mention of lag here without people truly understanding it as a whole... I would suggest reading the following Digital Foundry articles:

    http://ww w.eurogamer.net/articles/digita... (lag in general)
    http://ww w.eurogamer.net/articles/digita... (natal lag)

    In the latter, lag was estimated as somewhere between Halo 3 (lower end) and Killzone 2 / GTA (higher end). Though of course, that's with the old on chip system... (I can't see them offloading the processing as a good thing)

  • Eraysor #14 2 years ago

    If I do get Natal, the main reason would probably just be for activating and navigating the dashboard by voice and gestures. Judging by the quality of gaming on the Wii, I don't think I'll be playing any games on it for a while.

  • mull #15 2 years ago

    So Natal is going to cost less than a frigging wireless adaptor?

  • Concrete #16 2 years ago

    The problem they now face is that games whose core game play is not based around Natal will no longer offer support. As a developer are you going to put aside 5 - 10% of a system's performance aside to support something that potentially very few people will use (and is unlikely to make you extra sales) when you can spend it improving the experience for the bulk of users? I don't think so.

  • cianchristopher #17 2 years ago

    I just can't see this being good for the type of games I play (which is, basically, everything that isn't the Nintendo Wii (worst console on the market))...

    This, and the Sony wand, are so "me-too" it's not even funny...

    This is an EyeToy, did that ever give anyone any classic gaming experiences?

    The Sony wand is a Wii MotionPlus, did that ever give anyone any classic gaming experiences?

    Fuck all, I'd say...

  • miiiguel #18 2 years ago

    The problem they now face is that games whose core game play is not based around Natal will no longer offer support.

    I hope so. I don't expect much from Natal but a gimick to have a laugh with friends, I have no intention of using it in my long video-gaming sessions.
    That, and as a fancy remote controler, that is cool.

  • ant72 #19 2 years ago

    I'm not sure I'm worried about the minimal lag, but burdening the CPU with bone calculations is a big deal. I think the number of bones will be small, but decifering the bones from the data is tricky. This stuff is maths intensive and almost certainly means the device will be positioned at novelty games, as opposed to GOW for example.

    A majority of AAA titles do indeed max out the CPU, so there will be a 2 tiers of games I suspect.

  • RexRunti #20 2 years ago

    Whilst I also thought that one of the best things about Natal was the zero processor performance side, I don't think this will have any negative effect on input lag. Also bear in mind that it will only affect the processor and a have a neglible impact on RAM so won't impact graphics at all... just game play.

  • IneptPercy #21 2 years ago

    Is it just me who sees both consoles as GPU limited? I think both can spare some CPU times without any impact.

  • linksdad #22 2 years ago

    miiguel : its bodes less well because MS will have three or more code bases to support, one for each platform, rather than one on the peripheral. Xbox and PC work on different processors, the 720 is likely to use a different one still.

  • mkreku #23 2 years ago

    Damn. There goes my Forza 4 head tracking idea out the window :/ No chance that Forza has the processor power left over to simulate Natal in the background too.

  • BabyJesus #24 2 years ago

    Not really bothered by this news.

    I never really expected it to do well on 'core' games anyway, means we will get less tacked on bullshit that is just there for the sake of being there.

    So basically when it is used it will have the whole game concept built around it, which only makes sense and I'd speculate that games built around the Natal concept wouldn't be twitch heavy games anyway.

    Anyway I'll have both Natal and the PS Wand thingy so I couldn't care less which one is best..

  • Quint2020 #25 2 years ago

    It makes sense, it would allow for quicker updates to the system and will also help keep the price point down.

  • RexRunti #26 2 years ago

    @link'sdad

    Actually the Xbox 360 uses a slightly modified version of DirectX all programming has to be done through MS's APIs this means that MS could use completely different hardware in a 360 and all games would work with no difference at all, in the same way you wouldn't have a problem if you played a game on an AMD based PC instead of an Intel one.

  • drxym #27 2 years ago

    Oh dear. The hardware was one advantage it held over the PS3 wand solution - offloading most of the heavy lifting processing onto the device. Without that chip, software only processing is going to be hideously CPU expensive and probably laggier too. Kiss goodbye to just slotting Natal support into some random game.

  • Rubarack #28 2 years ago

    Hmm, the most exciting thing about it was the fusion of normal controls with motion additions, particularly head tracking. If this scuppers that potential then I'm struggling to see what Natal offers over Eyetoy. If they bundle a few mini games with it they may still do quite well but I can't see what would be interesting from a gamers perspective.

  • makeamazing #29 2 years ago

    There are a number of issues as i see it...

    1. its good for the consumer that its cheaper, a more expensive price point increases the risk of it not selling.
    2. Removing a processor is not a major problem if the xbox can take up the slack... now if the game is a low end casual experience then this wont be a problem as they wont be pushing it, but if its a top end game, then that may be a problem, as those usually are pushing the current gen machines.
    3. The lag in natal doesnt appear to be the same as the lag in other games. It seems more apparent in natal, perhaps because you can see your body image moving on screen, so its more apparent than using a controller. Personally i think lag will be a massive problem.

    Anyway, will have to see what happens at the end of the year, and if sony can pull anything out of the bag this spring... which i will be suprised if they can to be honest, and i think they will delay till june/aug/sep.
    Edited by 1 at 07/01/10 @ 13:14

  • Dizzy #30 2 years ago

    "in the same way you wouldn't have a problem if you played a game on an AMD based PC instead of an Intel one. "

    Errr... the AMD and Intel chips use the same instruction set. They are virtual clones.

    I think you mean GPUs ;)

  • Psychotext #31 2 years ago

    "It seems more apparent in natal, perhaps because you can see your body image moving on screen, so its more apparent than using a controller."

    That's more of an issue when you're watching other people use it in videos than when you're actually using it yourself. ;)

  • makeamazing #32 2 years ago

    That might be the case, we will have to see... :) but i dont recall seeing any lag watching other people play games with controllers.
    Edited by 1 at 07/01/10 @ 13:18

  • IneptPercy #33 2 years ago

    The API thing does mean good news with future backwards compatibility, much like if you upgrade you CPU, GPU and DirectX version on a PC, your old games still run, just better.

    Wonder if natal will work on my PC?

  • Psychotext #34 2 years ago

    @makeamazing: You've already said why that's the case though. You don't see a mirror image of them updating a tenth of a second later on a screen... it's quite unnatural and our brains can pick up on the delay easily (besides, how often do you watch someone's hands and the screen at the same time when they're using a controller!)
    Edited by 1 at 07/01/10 @ 13:21

  • ZuluHero #35 2 years ago

    Well I hope somebody picked it up again! I'm always dropping stuff and it always bounces somewhere inaccessible like behind the fridge...

  • HenryFitz #36 2 years ago

    100ms lag means it's not for FPSs, team sports sims or driving sims. Which leaves, exercise games, dance games, single-player sports, educational sims and the one traditional game genre which it could improve immeasurably, the RTS. Imagine selecting your forces with a circle of the hand and then directing them to attack with a gesture. It could also be very good for RPGs with turn-based combat, though I think turn-based combat is shit, so I'm not very excited about that.

  • Beano #37 2 years ago

    @MESSIAH999 : True, but Wii was first on the marked and Sony&MS are playing catch-up now.
    Edited by 1 at 07/01/10 @ 13:51

  • flapps #38 2 years ago

    So is this really just an expensive USB camera now? It sounds like it's just a Live Vision camera repackaged with some software to back up some new features?

  • chukcyQ #39 2 years ago

    Then I will save also money by not buying this watered down piece of crap. No more extra power to XBox360? Sucks.

  • awb83 #40 2 years ago

    It's just a fancy eye toy. It'll be less of a success now it won't have its own cpu.

  • Beano #41 2 years ago

    @disc: True - but EyeToy controls were never the huge success as Wii is today. Wii sits on the motion-control market today no matter who really were the first with commercial motion-controls :)

  • miiiguel #42 2 years ago

    @link'sdad: like Rex said, MS enforces the use of DirectX, supposedly for future-proof reasons.

    Better explained here: http://ww w.eurogamer.net/articles/digita...
    Edited by 1 at 07/01/10 @ 14:23

  • spatss #43 2 years ago

    Rofl. So instead of being shit, it'll be utter shit.

  • miiiguel #44 2 years ago

    ^ ahah, so funny, "rofl"; "lol"; "lmao" !

  • General_Zod #45 2 years ago

    Pfff they could increase their gigawatts by routing through the primary decoupler and bypassing the flux matrix, any chump can do that.

  • GreyBeard #46 2 years ago

    I'm pretty sure Natal doesn't work using "points" as such, the camera sends a z-buffer image back to the console which is then interpreted by the API to isolate points of motion and the inter-relationships between them.

    Because of this I'd suspect it'd involve both CPU and GPU to some extent.

  • TeaFiend #47 2 years ago

    I suspect you are all worrying over nothing.

  • lmephisto #48 2 years ago

    Brilliant lets hope it wont be like the old xbox machines that they were faulty after 2 weeks .

  • Widge #49 2 years ago

    As someone mentioned, the Wii did well because it bundled its hardware from the off. Be interesting to see how well Sony and MS do without that sort of incentive... unless all bundles from a certain point onwards have it. The 3rd party guys won't bite to support unless there is a user base so good 1st party turnout will be key, especially to hook people in.

  • BOFH_UK #50 2 years ago

    I'm astonished at the negativity here, I really am. The product is still a year away and can you really see MS deciding to take a decision for cost reasons that utterly cripples their Next Big Thing?

    It might turn out to be crap, it might turn out to have no support and be the biggest flop since the Mega CD but how about we all hold fire and see how it turns out rather than blindly speculating on a device that hasn't even seen a public demo yet, let alone any real software.

  • Widge #51 2 years ago

    What? And ruin a year of comment thread FUN?

  • mcwildcard #52 2 years ago

    Capcom come out and say that the Wii is being dropped due to lack of interest by gamers, yet the motion control thing will be a 'key battleground' in 2010?
    Mental and Cornetto are both doomed to cost their respective companies a ton in R&D for not much yield.
    At least Sony probably have a fair bit of the tech from their face recog in cameras and the development of the eyetoy/ps eye, I'd imagine MS have chucked a lot more at this that Sony have had to.

    2010 = The year of 3D
    2010 is not the year of leaping about in front of your telly like a twat
    Edited by 1 at 07/01/10 @ 15:25

  • mattigan #53 2 years ago

    "Mental and Cornetto are both doomed to cost their respective companies a ton in R&D for not much yield."

    That's as may be but I'm pretty sure that MS are planning to tout 'Mental' as more than just an Xbox controlling device, I seem to remember them having another sideline in software products that may benefit from facial, gesture and voice recognition all in one handy little USB device.... Windows or something?
    Edited by 3 at 07/01/10 @ 15:38

  • Dizzy #54 2 years ago

    >2010 = The year of 3D

    Lol

  • zhgingaah #55 2 years ago

    Sweet Jeebus! Never mind all this Natal > 3D > Sliced bread nonsense!!

    Did you see that?! Rich Leadbetter!! I'm having Mean Machines Sega and CVG flashbacks man!!

    Wow - how doin' Rich? And whatever happened to Julian 'Jaz' Rignall, he of the long hair and great review prose?

  • Killdare #56 2 years ago

    @General_Zod

    "Pfff they could increase their gigawatts by routing through the primary decoupler and bypassing the flux matrix, any chump can do that."

    I don't see why they haven't tried reversing the polarity of the neutron flow, that should sort it.
    Edited by 1 at 07/01/10 @ 16:55

  • Sunyavadin #57 2 years ago

    Yay, Microsoft's attempt to emulate Sega's Activator fiasco of the 90s continues!

    /me sighs

  • Pickster #58 2 years ago

    Did you see that?! Rich Leadbetter!! I'm having Mean Machines Sega and CVG flashbacks man!!

    What rock have you been living under. Leadbetter has been doing Digital Foundry articals/blogs/whatever on here for... quite a while.

  • Distributor #59 2 years ago

    Oh look. The comments thread is full of Natal coders. Nice to see that.
    Speculating over the hit on the cpu/gpu and if it will make games more/less shit is just utter nonsense and pre-emptive
    banter. I think we will see it when someone gets their hand on one.

    But yeah, back on track, i dont think natal will make or break this generation of consoles.
    But thinking 1-2 generations ahead, i think the guys holding the normal controllers in hand will be the ones laughed at in school.
    Built in chip or no.

  • ronuds #60 2 years ago

    If anything takes a hit, it probably won't even be noticeable, or it'll be graphics. And I'd rather have a good game with lesser graphics than the opposite.

  • robson_wii #61 2 years ago

    In the video there is a lot of lag on fast moving parts of the game demoed but is the video demo showing the software or hardware version? If hardware version demoed then 100ms lag will be hard to get close to in software unless the hardware was way underutilized.

  • Stormflood #62 2 years ago

    "Damn. There goes my Forza 4 head tracking idea out the window :/ No chance that Forza has the processor power left over to simulate Natal in the background too."

    Why? GT5 will have head tracking.

  • makeamazing #63 2 years ago

    Its already been suggested why there is a difference between brain/controller lag and eye/avatar lag... and why that could be a bigger issue for any games using natal.

  • old_skool #64 2 years ago

    Lead-developer-exposes-Natal-inner-workings

    [link url=http://www.develop-online.ne t/news/33603/Lead-developer-exposes-Natal-inner-workings
    ]http://ww w.develop-online.net/news/33603...[/link]

  • man.the.king #65 2 years ago

    @General_Zod

    "Pfff they could increase their gigawatts by routing through the primary decoupler and bypassing the flux matrix.."

    I think you meant flux capacitor, not flux matrix. Maybe we should also call in Doc Emmett Brown? :)

  • Widge #66 2 years ago

    Didn't DF say that the Natal lag is on top of the existing lag in games? Can't remember, may have misread.

  • smelly #67 2 years ago

    @Beano : (quote) "True, but Wii was first on the marked and Sony&MS are playing catch-up now."


    No it wasnt.. Sony made eyetoy (which natal is pretty much ripping off, with improvements) years ago..

  • belziah #68 2 years ago

    General Zod, Killdare and man.the.king

    All of which is irrelevant.

    Without sufficient Unobtainium to power the Price-Goody Tri-Phasic Dispersement Field, your gonna end up producing a Winehouse Vortex that'll blow a hole through time and space(or the nearest Oddbins).

    Now I love me a motion-control game as much as the next man but the cost to humanity..................think of the children!

  • Gaiduku #69 2 years ago

    Hmmm an interesting situation here. What would i rather want? A device that costs somewhere from £100-200 but is amazing or a device for £50 that is not as good. I suppose the latter makes more sense in the long run. Microsoft want pretty much everyone to own this thing as soon as possible to make the most of the games they make....the cheaper they make it the more affordable it will be. It has to be more like going out and buying a game than going out and buying a whole new console. Hence aiming for the £50 - 60 price point makes sense.

  • VandelayIndustries #70 2 years ago

    "That's a shame, 100ms seems alot of lag."

    teh9182: "Have you read the other Digital Foundry article on here about input lag? Some of the biggest titles around have lag that's greater than 100 ms, including Killzone 2 and GTA IV."

    And both of those titles have been roundly criticized for it. Project Natal seemed to me like a 'shock and awe' answer to a question that required finesse.

    This news has left me in doubt to it's usefulness, I already own a Wii.
    Edited by 1 at 08/01/10 @ 03:05

  • dfish #71 2 years ago

    100ms device lag is on top of software/game related lag and any lag on your tv. i dont think it will be a problem for casual games however mainly precision stuff.

  • chubster2010 #72 2 years ago

    This seems like a strange move to me, especially since MS made such a big deal about the fact that it wouldn't impact on the 360 processors.

    I'd rather a slightly more expensive, but more powerful device to be honest.

    @ Gaiduku
    re ' It has to be more like going out and buying a game than going out and buying a whole new console.'

    But MS themselves have said '"Conceptually, the launch of Natal will be like the launch of Xbox 360"' - they can't have it both ways (can they?)?
    <a href="http://tinyurl.com/knhnfx
    ">    http://tinyurl.com/knhnfx
    </a>
    Edited by 1 at 08/01/10 @ 13:49

  • man.the.king #73 2 years ago

    @MESSIAH999

    Wasn't it 1.21 ? :)

  • man.the.king #74 2 years ago

    @MESSIAH999

    Hey Donnie, it was 1.21, not 1.25. Check out this page and do a find (Ctrl+F) for "gigawatts" on it. Also, I have all three BTTFs on DVD . Been a fan of the series since ... well, 1985 :) .

    EDIT: Well, this post doesn't make much sense since you deleted your post # 76 :)
    Edited by 2 at 12/01/10 @ 06:21