Microsoft: new 360 dash helps indies

By Fred Dutton Published 2 November, 2010

No backtrack on controversial update.

Microsoft has answered concerns that the recent Xbox 360 dashboard update marginalises Xbox Live Indie Games, insisting the new set-up will work better for independent developers.

A spokesperson for the platform holder told Eurogamer, "Microsoft continues to support the efforts of independent game developers."

Independent developers have reportedly been up in arms about the decision to move Xbox Live Indie Games from the game store proper to a new Speciality Shops tab. It makes it harder for consumers to find their games, they insist. Not so, claims Microsoft.

"The intent of the Specialty Shops section was to provide access to marketplaces that focus on a specific type of content, with unique ways of sorting through that content. We wanted to give Xbox Live Indie Games that full marketplace experience and felt this was the best place to do it, alongside other popular channels like the Avatar Marketplace.

"In fact, since the launch of Avatars, Xbox Live members have made more than 290 million customizations to their Avatar's clothing, so we expect many people to regularly visit the Specialty Shops section."

And that's not the only benefit of the new dashboard, Microsoft says. "We've updated the Xbox Live Indie Games marketplace and Xbox.com to provide new ways for people to browse and sort indie games.

"You can now browse the top-rated, top-selling and most recent games by genre. You can also find indie games by 'best selling today' and 'best selling of all time' on Xbox.com.

"In addition, the Top Rated and Top Downloaded lists have grown from 20 games to 50, allowing for greater exposure of more indie games. We've also kept the Contest Finalists and the IGN Picks sections, so users can sort through titles in a number of different ways."

So there you have it, indie dev types. You've never had it so good, understand?

Picture of Fred.

About Fred Dutton

Fred Dutton is Eurogamer's US news editor, based in Washington DC.

Read more articles from Fred by visiting the Fred Dutton archive page.

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Comments (36) Latest comment 2 years ago

Comments for this article are now closed, but please feel free to continue chatting on the forum!

  • Pastici #1 2 years ago

    To be honest, unless Microsoft stick it as the first thing you see the indies will always complain. :/

  • coolbritannia #2 2 years ago

    I think they're getting a good deal tbh.

  • FreelanceGames #3 2 years ago

    It appears that child accounts are now blocking the Indie Games Specialty Channel! Child accounts appear to be blocked even if you turn off your the Family Settings. Is Microsoft know deciding what our kids are allowed to view?

    I developed Starchon for the XBLIG marketplace and my kids are unable to access it? What's up with that?
    Edited by FreelanceGames at 02/11/10 @ 18:57

  • Pastici #4 2 years ago

    @FreelanceGames

    Seeing as they are unrated I'm not surprised.

  • flipperpod #5 2 years ago

    Are they joking? Putting indie games on a par with a virtual guinea pig accessory?

  • FunInfusedGames #6 2 years ago

    Users looking for a shirt for their Avatar aren't the same as users looking for a game. We'd like to be considered games, thank you very much. This explanation is a joke.

    Admit it Microsoft, you were pressured by XBLA publishers because we were encroaching on their domain.

  • superfurry #7 2 years ago

    You know what would really help the Indies? Make the Indie Marketplace available outside of the UK and US.

  • SpaceMidget75 Verified Senior Software Developer, Minerva Computer Services #8 2 years ago

    As a dev myself this really is a lot of fuss about nothing. Users aren't fucking blind. Putting it there isn't suddenly gonna stop people buying!

    "I really want an indie game but I CAN'T FIND THEM!!!"

    ;)

  • byakuya83 #9 2 years ago

    Post deleted at 10:03:41 30-03-2012

  • King_Edward #10 2 years ago

    MS's PR are on a roll.

  • KDR_11k #11 2 years ago

    War is Peace
    Freedom is Slavery
    Ignorance is Strength
    Specialty Shop is a benefit

  • DrMistry #12 2 years ago

    If only MS had/would respond(ed) in the AppHub forums, where the WP7 and XBLIG development communities live, then most of this could have been avoided. Getting any kind of response from them has been like getting a republican to vote for gay marriage. We KNOW we're not in the same league as XBLA, and we acknowledge that XBLA publishers are MUCH more important to the brand than XBLIG developers, but we're just being left to wither on the vine. If EuroGamer hadn't run this story yesterday, we would never have got a repsonse (official or otherwise). As it stands we're having to make a noise and get devs and fans to vote on a Connect (MS bug reporting website) case to try and get some kind of dialog going between the community and Microsoft management. (it's here - https://connect.microsoft.com/site226/fe... but you need to register at connect.microsoft.com before voting on the link)

    Whatever you may think of some XBLIG games (and yes we know there's a lot of shit, and yes we've asked Microsoft to help us improve the signal:noise problem on the channel), we're in a commercial relationship with MS, from which they made somewhere in the region of $750,000 last year. The lack of response from them on the AppHub site has been staggering and if I were them, I would just be embarrased. We pay to deploy our code to the 360, they get 30% of sales from released titles, they get casual games at a rate pro studios can't keep up with.

    There is a hardcore of developers who DO care, DO try and help other developers create better games, and DO try to put the channel in a more positive light. Some of us were thinking of going to Windows Phone 7 but the launch of the WP7 service has been just as bad and poorly supported as XBLIG. Most analysts think WP7 is going to be another expensive MS mobile platform failure, and they seem to be doing all they can to make that happen. We're just the poor schmoes who want to make the best games we can, have a reasonable chance of success, and improve the value of Microsofts 2 biggest non-PC brands - Xbox and Windows Phone - along the way. If only they would help us, or at the very least talk to us. We're not asking for info that's under NDA, just an indication of the broad stratergy for XBLIG. Is that so very much to ask?

  • dirtyvu #13 2 years ago

    i still don't see how the new location for indie games is any worse. in fact, the organization is more delineated now.

  • funkateer #14 2 years ago

    To be fair, I think MS is the only one of the 'big three' console manufacturers that actively supports independent developers and you have to realise that they have to walk a fine line there.

  • darkmorgado #15 2 years ago

    What a load of PR bollocks.

    By separating Indie games from the Games Marketplace, you are
    A) hiding games from the most obvious place people will look for them and
    B) segregating them, sending out the message that you don't consider them to be on the same footing in terms of quality or importance as the rest of the market.

    What's particularly annoying is that they are so obviously doing this because at their low pricepoint, indie games don't bring them in enough revenue and by their indie nature, MS can't exercise too much control over them. You can guarantee that if the indie games were all selling millions and priced at 800 points each, MS would be putting them all right in your fucking face.

  • DrMistry #16 2 years ago

    @scotty - have you actually looked at the Top Rated list for the channel lately? There are developers working their arses off to bring you excellent titles of all shapes and sizes for a couple of buck, or even less. The only time mainstream sites even admit we exist is when there's come controversy going on - like now, or a high profile massage game. I've been writing indie games for 2 years for the XBLIG channel, all 4 of my titles are on Top Downloads AND Top Rated in their genres. I've busted my chops doing the best I can, supporting other developers, trying to make the channel a better place. Now just as we're starting to get more press and blog attention MS make what appears to be a backward step without any notice, let alone discussion.

    Compare and contrast where we've ended up to where we were in the early Dash betas prior to the new update. MS bottled it because XBLA studios were worried about loosing market share to the better indie games. Does that sound like the channel is just shitty massagers and screensavers? Not at all. There are games on the channel which give better entertainment than XBLA titles for a fraction of the price. We were stupid enough to take MS at their word and do the very best we could, and this is what we get in return. Poor show.

  • Xalterax #17 2 years ago

    Honestly I for one have no issues with the internal browsing changes - IE: How things work once you find the channel. The only beef we have is how you find the channel.

    In the dashboard beta Indie Games were available where they are now, but also showed up in letter searches under games and demos - and the extremely high rated indie games, which is a very small number of them - many of which are actually quite good - showed up with XBLA titles under the genre searches. In addition there *was* and indie games category over with the actual games.

    We had our hopes up that we were going to get both...but apparently some of the mainstream publishers, or perhaps MS themselves put the lid on that.Ultimately every marketing attempt the community has launched has fallen flat on its face, save one. One we all pay for, the dashboard.

    I don't think its off base that we're a little upset that we're hidden away now from the actual games. If nothing else, at least put the "Indie Games" tab back over in the Games Marketplace. What harm would that do? Seriously.

    We've actually launched our own version of a petition via submitting the new placement as a bug. Feel free to voice your thoughts with us - who knows, if enough people care maybe it will get patched?

    https://connect.microsoft.com/site226/fe...

  • Kryon #18 2 years ago

    "B) segregating them, sending out the message that you don't consider them to be on the same footing in terms of quality or importance as the rest of the market. "

    Well to be fair, the general quality of indie games isn't very high (and that's putting it kindly). Even the games that are successful like 'I made a game with zombies in it' and 'baby maker extreme' are pretty crap when compared with any decent XBLA title...There's a handful of decent indies but they're in the minority.

  • Xalterax #19 2 years ago

    @Kryon - Yes, your right about that. Out of...1400? Games now, Maybe 100 are actually worth the dollar. But if you actually sort by top rated those 100 are right at the top of all the lists. The indies with actual high ratings have some real substance and quality to them. Some of the indie devs actually support excellent online multi-player and are even more stable than XBLA and AAA titles since our community features a host of very anal reviewers.

    The other 1300 games aren't worth the time of day, and most of them sell less than 100 copies as a result. But if you sort by top rated...the gems spring right to the top of the new 50 slot lists, and most of those gems are more fun than their overpriced XBLA cousins. Its those 100 games and the fans of the developers of those games, that don't want to see said developers pack up and quit - that are upset about the change.

    The dash update has made finding the gems easier than ever, its finding the channel itself, that has become the problem.

  • Der_tolle_Emil #20 2 years ago

    I never understood the complains in the first place. As a consumer I actually want the indie games to have their own marketplace so to say. Maybe I differentiate too much between 'games' and 'indie games' but for me that's not really a bad thing because the two are quite different. I'm sure lots of indie developers would be quite happy to have their games listed on the same page like bigger studios but I'm not sure if that's necessarily a good thing. The playing field is not even, as much as everyone would want it to be.

    I enjoy indie games, I appreciate the effort by the developers and some games are really so good that they don't have to hide behind the bigger releases. Still, as a consumer I actually prefer the way it's done now. It makes it easier for me to browser the indie games, which is something that I would want - browsing just indie games and not having them thrown in the pot with all the other games.

  • FunInfusedGames #21 2 years ago

    How is it that Microsoft responds here but won't address any of our development concerns directly? We have a forum and website dedicated to XBLIG and the only place we can get any response from Microsoft is on Eurogamer.net? Microsoft supporting Indies is a joke.

  • Skywise #22 2 years ago

    I'm pretty sure the Indie channel still isn't available in the Netherlands and lots of other smaller European countries too.
    So the Indies are developing for a niche of a niche.

    Good job Microsoft!

  • Sunyavadin #23 2 years ago

    I don't know anyone who buys avatar clothes through the marketplace menus. Everyone I know does it through the avatar editor on the profile tab. Meaning they bypass entirely the special section of the new marketplace and go directly to the clothing submenus.


    The smell of shit here, I think it perhaps might be of bovine origin?

  • Alivada #24 2 years ago

    I think the biggest thing microsoft could is give indie's achievements.
    Say about 50g or something, so people would be more willing to purcase them sort of games.

  • t8yman #25 2 years ago

    why dont MS add a "bookmark channel" where users can bookmark 6 or so regularly visited areas of live for quick access, that would give them a nice picture of where people browse to when they boot up? I know my main destinations are game videos, arcade games, lastfm, and thats about it. And navigating to those on whichever dash can sometimes be a bit of a faff.
    its free market research for ms.

    just an idea.

  • Sunyavadin #26 2 years ago

    "why dont MS add a "bookmark channel" where users can bookmark 6 or so regularly visited areas of live for quick access, that would give them a nice picture of where people browse to when they boot up?"

    GIVE THIS MAN A JOB, MS!

  • telboy007 #27 2 years ago

    Check out Miasma, thats a sign of how Indie games can be. Very impressive.

  • Tinrib72 #28 2 years ago

    Since the update, I did think for a moment that the indie games had been taken off. Took a short while browsing through menus to find them again, so in my opinion not a good look for the indie channel..

    Shame really as there some excellent titles worth the very small amount of points you'll spend for them. Anything by Radian Games is instabuy.

    By the way if you live outside of the UK then set up a UK account on your console, purchase games and then you should be able to play them on your normal profile. Thats what I've read somewhere anyway..


    Radian games: [link url=http://radiangames.com/
    ]http://radiangames.com/
    [/link]
    Edited by Tinrib72 at 03/11/10 @ 10:19

  • Trigg3rHippie #29 2 years ago

    Microsoft folks always know how to say "piss off" in a nice way...
    Edited by Trigg3rHippie at 03/11/10 @ 11:00

  • PixelPirate #30 2 years ago

    So how about if i stand infront of a Kinect, and start busking. Does it prioritise Indie games then?

  • Remy #31 2 years ago

    Still completely agree it's way too hidden. I like the "workaround" ideas posted on the Connect bug site though.

    Where's this "forum and website dedicated to XBLIG " ?

  • muscleblade #32 2 years ago

    @Tinrib72

    How many people do you think will bother to do that? Not many.

  • muscleblade #33 2 years ago

    @Tinrib72

    How many people do you think will bother to do that? Not many.

  • FunInfusedGames #34 2 years ago

    > Where's this "forum and website dedicated to XBLIG " ?

    That would be this website... [link url=http://create.msdn.com/en-US
    ]http://create.msdn.com/en-US
    [/link]

    Though it is skewed more towards WP7 these days. Because that seems to be what Microsoft wants us to be focusing on.

  • Tinrib72 #35 2 years ago

    @muscleblade - just a suggestion, thats all. If it works and your willing to put in say 10mins of your time making it work, then great. If your not that fussed, then dont.

  • Xalterax #36 2 years ago

    Copying my latest post from the mourning thread here - because its appropriate, and 100% correct:

    This load of tripe is a complete and utter slap to the face / lie. I've bought well over 10 items for my Avatar. How'd I do it? Well that easy, first I go to my profile and edit my Avatar. Then inside the nice UI I go to the item shop - find what I want and buy it. I have NEVER bought an item through the goofy dash navigation, and I never will. Why would I? Why would ANYONE? You've built it into the Avatar editing UI - the same UI everyone uses to first setup their Avatar. The same UI everyone uses to edit what their avatar is wearing. Why, then - would I EVER go to an outside semi-hidden menu component to buy stuff for my Avatar?

    Simple - I wouldn't.

    290 million customizations. So, they are basically saying - since the launch of avatars at least 290 million times, someone has gone into the avatar UI (not specifically the dashboard avatar menu tab) and decided they wanted to wear jeans instead of sweat pants. Take your sly statistics that your trying to use to mask whats really going on and shove them. Put us back in games, or publicly declare that you've decided the service is a failed experiment. This crap, right here - is bullsh*t.