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What political persuasion would you say you are? • Page 3

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  • Graveland 27 Jan 2013 13:14:56 807 posts
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    TarickStonefire wrote:
    @Syrette
    Don't forget the Illuminati.
    I have no idea if the Illuminati is one of those things that is actually real. But if you're trying to discredit the idea that governments around the world including our own make decisions not based on the good of the nation but more based on the benefit to their pockets, their parties coffers and/or the 'longer term sustainability of corporate infrastructure' or whatever, way, way over and above any actual needs of the citizens, I think you're mistaken.
    I completely agree with your post. One only needs to look at African/Middle-Eastern governments to see how this is a reality.

    "If I cast my eyes before me, what an
    Infinite space in which I do not exist;
    And if I look behind me, what a terrible
    Procession of years in which I do not
    Exist, and how little space I occupy in
    This vast abyss of time..."

  • TarickStonefire 27 Jan 2013 13:16:39 670 posts
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    @superdelphinus
    World population isn't as pressing as an ageing population in the UK. We've even had to resort to providing incentives for clever foreign people here to have/bring kids. We'll end up 70% of the population retired and contributing nothing but piles of knit ware at Christmas
    Yes, you've zeroed in on what I would consider to be the UK's bigger concerns about population increase, thank you! Not got my 'targeted political discussion' cap on this afternoon, bit vague. ;)
  • Graveland 27 Jan 2013 13:18:02 807 posts
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    darkmorgado wrote:
    @Mr_Sleep

    I'd say personally that keeping them alive is a much harsher penalty than killing them. Lifelong incarceration, even under fairly liberal prison systems, is still a life without freedom.

    Plus I think the death penalty is hypocritical in the extreme.

    Was it Ghandi that said the measure of a nation's morals is how they treat their prisoners?
    I think it was Churchill, but I could be wrong.

    I disagree with the "hypocrisy" of the death penalty being a reason to oppose it. By that reasoning it is hypocritical to imprison Fitzl, thus his imprisonment should be opposed.

    "If I cast my eyes before me, what an
    Infinite space in which I do not exist;
    And if I look behind me, what a terrible
    Procession of years in which I do not
    Exist, and how little space I occupy in
    This vast abyss of time..."

  • bitch_tits_zero_nine 27 Jan 2013 13:18:05 4,930 posts
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    TarickStonefire wrote:
    @bitch_tits_zero_nine
    But surely self interest and survival is a human constant. The point of legislative systems is to accommodate and circumvent human flaws.
    The first bit: absolutely, that's why it's weird when people dismiss the suggestion with references to kind of hard-to-believe conspiracy theories.

    The second bit: yes, a lot of stuff gets dealt with by our legal system and the processes society has put in place like that. But big ticket stuff, that's run by corporations.

    Look at what's happening with America and gun control - no matter what you believe about gun control, the fact that there's so little research into it in order to have a decent discussion about it is because gun companies in America do a lot of work to have that research stopped at a governmental level. The NRA is a conglomerate of gun manufacturers somehow getting away with claiming to be a representative body of simple gun-owners. It's crazy and frustrating and it has always been thus and always will be when it comes to big decisions.
    hehe, yeah, I don't think our system works either.

    It's funny when the rhetoric implies a cause and effect, but issues like the current economic situation highlight starkly how ineffective the politicians actions are.

    Edited by bitch_tits_zero_nine at 13:18:44 27-01-2013
  • andytheadequate 27 Jan 2013 13:33:14 7,084 posts
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    I don't trust people who support the death penalty.
  • Graveland 27 Jan 2013 13:36:35 807 posts
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    andytheadequate wrote:
    I don't trust people who support the death penalty.
    Why, are you planning on becoming a serial killer? ;)

    "If I cast my eyes before me, what an
    Infinite space in which I do not exist;
    And if I look behind me, what a terrible
    Procession of years in which I do not
    Exist, and how little space I occupy in
    This vast abyss of time..."

  • andytheadequate 27 Jan 2013 13:48:32 7,084 posts
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    Graveland wrote:
    andytheadequate wrote:
    I don't trust people who support the death penalty.
    Why, are you planning on becoming a serial killer? ;)
    Indeed, just waiting for a small thing to tip me over the edge, like another bloody 'hi I'm a gamer girl, everyone look at me' thread...
  • Syrette 27 Jan 2013 13:53:34 38,384 posts
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    andytheadequate wrote:
    Graveland wrote:
    andytheadequate wrote:
    I don't trust people who support the death penalty.
    Why, are you planning on becoming a serial killer? ;)
    Indeed, just waiting for a small thing to tip me over the edge, like another bloody 'hi I'm a gamer girl, everyone look at me' thread...
    Except she doesn't actually ever mention her gender.

    XBL: rolemodel86 PSN: Syrette86

  • darkmorgado 27 Jan 2013 15:03:22 22,604 posts
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    I think the only thing that ever makes me question my anti-death sentence is particularly horrific, premeditated child murder.

    And come on graveland, there's a slight difference between putting someone in prison and killing them!

    Now with 80% more Cthulhu!

  • darkmorgado 27 Jan 2013 15:04:45 22,604 posts
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    andytheadequate wrote:
    Graveland wrote:
    andytheadequate wrote:
    I don't trust people who support the death penalty.
    Why, are you planning on becoming a serial killer? ;)
    Indeed, just waiting for a small thing to tip me over the edge, like another bloody 'hi I'm a gamer girl, everyone look at me' thread...
    Well we haven't had one in a month or two, so we're probably overdue by now....

    /screenprints just in case....

    Now with 80% more Cthulhu!

  • Khanivor 27 Jan 2013 15:26:17 38,683 posts
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    I'm with Graveland on this. If there is a case where the evidence leaves absolutely zero doubt and the crime is heinous then kill the fucker. But those criteria must be met. I used to be pro-death penalty with a more cavalier attitude towards it. The increasing use of DNA to prove the innocence of so many executed or on death row makes me much more skeptical of its use.

    People do seem to forget that there is another purpose to sentencing other than as a deterrence. Difficult subject that deserves a(nother) thread of its own.

    Politically I view myself to be pragmatic. I think that people who adhere to one political leaning or another are simple-minded. I don't oppose or support any policies because they are right or left win, I get behind or against them because they are stupid or wise.

    I guess that makes me a centrist.
  • kalel 27 Jan 2013 15:42:40 76,473 posts
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    If you gave people the choice between life imprisonment and death, I'd wager a significant majority would choose prison.
  • Deleted user 27 January 2013 15:43:31
    To be honest I always saw myself as trying to strive for the middle ground but it always felt like a cop out.

    All I really know is that the more you know the more complicated it all gets.

    The thing that frustrates me the most is how these systems stacked on systems stacked on systems were all put in place long before I was born and I has basically fuck all chance to change anything.

    Democracy doesn't work because most people don't get what they want which leads to tactical voting which kind of pisses on the whole thing. You get a load of people basically second guessing. I don't trust the general population with an opinion on anything anyway. Depressingly most people I speak to in my day to day think everything is shit because there are too many immigrants.

    This makes me very very unhappy, unfortunately people are so mired in their bullshit to consider anything for longer than it takes to read an article in the Daily Mail. Having only recently managed to hold down a full time job for longer than a year I can already fully see how easy it is to just turn off to anything other than zoning out in front of the picture box when you're not incessantly grinding.
  • Syrette 27 Jan 2013 16:00:05 38,384 posts
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    kalel wrote:
    If you gave people the choice between life imprisonment and death, I'd wager a significant majority would choose prison.
    Probably. That said, I'm sure I'd rather die than reside in solitary confinement.

    XBL: rolemodel86 PSN: Syrette86

  • meme 27 Jan 2013 16:31:55 15,520 posts
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    Khanivor wrote:
    I'm with Graveland on this. If there is a case where the evidence leaves absolutely zero doubt and the crime is heinous then kill the fucker. But those criteria must be met.
    Those criteria were met for the West Memphis Three case, and one of the accused was on Death Row. They're now released after a lengthy and problematic retrial where they were pretty much innocent, but the state would have been utterly sued to fuckery should they be actually found innocent, so were pretty much co-erced into Alford pleas (pleading guilty whilst maintaining innocence) leaving they with no legal right to sue. What would have happened had they been executed before all that?

    GHOSTBUSTERS

  • Mooney 27 Jan 2013 16:49:47 52 posts
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    @meme

    We should demostrate our fucking power. That woman... death sentence? Really? Fuck the British government saying thats bad oh or whatever. Send you're fuck MI6 or SAS in. Save this fucking woman or I'll save her my fucking self. Fucking joke. What's that website where you can do petitions? I would tell that country, kill a british person and we're gonna send everything fucking at you. Come on Cams, grow some fucking balls, save this fucking woman!

    Edited by Mooney at 16:50:05 27-01-2013
  • Mooney 27 Jan 2013 16:53:00 52 posts
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    We can't let her die for these reasons:

    She's British
    We can't let these cunts kill British people
    MI6 and SAS work in top, top secret. There is a mission for you, go save someone, Jesus!
  • Mooney 27 Jan 2013 16:55:41 52 posts
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    Nobody thought to make an online petion about saving a womens life yet school kids in the snow got half a million votes. You're fucking kidding me. Wanna see the power of the internet? Then help me save this womens life.
  • meme 27 Jan 2013 16:55:50 15,520 posts
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    Didn't she plead guilty? I know it's an international incident and all, but the UK government can't do much other than diplomacy if she knowingly and willingly smuggled fuckloads of drugs into a country with the harshest drug laws in the world.

    She shouldn't be killed, of course, but saying we should send in the troops to rescue her is bizarre. That's basically a declaration of war.

    Edited by meme at 16:56:34 27-01-2013

    GHOSTBUSTERS

  • MrTomFTW Moderator 27 Jan 2013 17:05:16 31,315 posts
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    We've got to respect the laws of other countries. Death penalty is wrong in my eyes, but that's the punishment for what she did and she was probably well aware that was the risk. We can't start a war to rescue a drug smuggler.

    Follow me on Twitter: @MrTom
    Voted by the community "Best mod" 2011 and 2012.

  • mowgli 27 Jan 2013 17:12:15 31,931 posts
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    Khanivor wrote:
    I'm with Graveland on this. If there is a case where the evidence leaves absolutely zero doubt and the crime is heinous then kill the fucker.But those criteria must be met. I used to be pro-death penalty with a more cavalier attitude towards it. The increasing use of DNA to prove the innocence of so many executed or on death row makes me much more skeptical of its use.
    How does this fit around the general absence of guilt? Surely you can't be proven guilty enough for prison and guilty enough for the death penalty? You can just be guilty.

    Pissy pants.

  • Khanivor 27 Jan 2013 17:13:15 38,683 posts
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    meme wrote:
    Those criteria were met for the West Memphis Three case, and one of the accused was on Death Row. They're now released after a lengthy and problematic retrial where they were pretty much innocent, but the state would have been utterly sued to fuckery should they be actually found innocent, so were pretty much co-erced into Alford pleas (pleading guilty whilst maintaining innocence) leaving they with no legal right to sue. What would have happened had they been executed before all that?
    I thought they were convicted based on little other than the confession of the retarded one.

    I'd add I would not find a confession by the perpetrator sufficient evidence on its own for a death sentence. People are just about the most unreliable evidence there is.
  • superdelphinus 27 Jan 2013 17:13:49 6,177 posts
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    I guess he means a difference between beyond reasonable doubt, and zero doubt. To me that seems largely impossble
  • Khanivor 27 Jan 2013 17:15:21 38,683 posts
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    mowgli wrote:
    How does this fit around the general absence of guilt? Surely you can't be proven guilty enough for prison and guilty enough for the death penalty? You can just be guilty.
    Zero doubt is different from beyond reasonable doubt. That's the point.
  • Khanivor 27 Jan 2013 17:16:34 38,683 posts
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    superdelphinus wrote:
    I guess he means a difference between beyond reasonable doubt, and zero doubt. To me that seems largely impossble
    Bodies buried in a forest versus bodies buried in your basement, would I think, make a reasonable distinction.
  • senso-ji 27 Jan 2013 17:17:11 4,574 posts
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    Didn't Lindsey Sandiford admit to trafficking drugs because she feared the drug gangs would harm her children? I think she entered a guilty plea because she thought it would get a more lenient sentence given the circumstances.
  • bitch_tits_zero_nine 27 Jan 2013 17:17:14 4,930 posts
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    I'm not sure MI6 work like that.

    David Shaler (sp?) was a fatty. Ergo you don't need to be proper fit to do the work, so infiltrations are off the agenda.
  • mowgli 27 Jan 2013 17:18:45 31,931 posts
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    Khanivor wrote:
    mowgli wrote:
    How does this fit around the general absence of guilt? Surely you can't be proven guilty enough for prison and guilty enough for the death penalty? You can just be guilty.
    Zero doubt is different from beyond reasonable doubt. That's the point.
    But in that case no one should be sent to jail without zero doubt. It's a bit of nonsense to say we haven't proven you were guilty enough for the chair but I'm satisfied enough to put you in jail for 40 years - in this century at least.

    Pissy pants.

  • superdelphinus 27 Jan 2013 17:18:51 6,177 posts
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    @Khanivor ?
  • meme 27 Jan 2013 17:19:56 15,520 posts
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    Khanivor wrote:
    meme wrote:
    Those criteria were met for the West Memphis Three case, and one of the accused was on Death Row. They're now released after a lengthy and problematic retrial where they were pretty much innocent, but the state would have been utterly sued to fuckery should they be actually found innocent, so were pretty much co-erced into Alford pleas (pleading guilty whilst maintaining innocence) leaving they with no legal right to sue. What would have happened had they been executed before all that?
    I thought they were convicted based on little other than the confession of the retarded one.

    I'd add I would not find a confession by the perpetrator sufficient evidence on its own for a death sentence. People are just about the most unreliable evidence there is.
    Incriminating knowledge, eyewitnesses and failing a polygraph test were the major pieces of evidence used against them. All (much) later shown to be basically a load of crap, but at the time it was enough for the justice system to believe 100% guilt.

    GHOSTBUSTERS

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