Original sci-fi IP Page 3

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  • LeoliansBro 15 Jan 2013 16:02:52 44,171 posts
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    That's how it started, surely. However it's shifted and these days is a lot closer to Fantasy: magical unbelievable larger than life action adventure set in the past and Sci Fi: magical unbelievable larger than life action adventure set in the future.

    LB, you really are a massive geek.

  • disusedgenius 15 Jan 2013 16:03:55 5,314 posts
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    The commonly accepted one is usually just 'stuff set in the future', an opinion which is usually a good indicator of some level of mental retardation.

    Kal seems more or less spot on, for me. Even being an odious literalist about it: sci-fi is just fiction which has the writer messing around with the science of the setting. The fact that Kaufman's black box was a magic portal into someone's head rather than a FTL drive shouldn't really change that.
  • kalel 15 Jan 2013 16:04:29 87,584 posts
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    PearOfAnguish wrote:
    kalel wrote:
    Fantasy is defined by a completely different version of reality to the one we know that goes beyond one or two simple alterations.
    There are many, many SF and fantasy books which don't fit that definition at all.

    Put it all under speculative fiction if you like.
    I think there's definitely similarities and crossover, and no doubt a lot of stuff that debatably sits in either camp, but I do think for the most part sci-fi is closer to the world we know, or an imagined version of the world we know in the future.

    Fantasy tends to be a bit more...well...fantastical...
  • MetalDog 15 Jan 2013 16:05:13 23,697 posts
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    The labels are mostly there so bookshops know where to chuck the books. There's a lot of crossover between sci-fi and fantasy in the middle ground between mega-hard-science fiction and mega-magicy-folk-tale-quest-legend fantasy.

    -- boobs do nothing for me, I want moustaches and chest hair.

  • kalel 15 Jan 2013 16:07:36 87,584 posts
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    I'm gonna say the moment a dragon makes an appearance, we're into the realms of fantasy :)

    But whatever, genres and labels are mostly bollocks yeah.
  • MetalDog 15 Jan 2013 16:12:36 23,697 posts
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    What about a robo-dragon? =D

    -- boobs do nothing for me, I want moustaches and chest hair.

  • LeoliansBro 15 Jan 2013 16:12:50 44,171 posts
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    kalel wrote:
    I'm gonna say the moment a dragon makes an appearance, we're into the realms of fantasy :)
    Anne McCaffrey would disagree.

    But luckily nobody cares about Anne McCaffrey.

    I think the general thoughts in this thread are right though. I guess we are seeing new sci-fi, but it is just different to the old stuff because society and the general zeitgeist has changed.

    So: A Modest Proposal to NASA. Approve the Mars missions please so we can have more aspirational, open-minded scifi and fewer fucking zombies. Kthx.

    LB, you really are a massive geek.

  • PearOfAnguish 15 Jan 2013 16:14:19 7,274 posts
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    disusedgenius wrote:
    The fact that Kaufman's black box was a magic portal into someone's head rather than a FTL drive shouldn't really change that.
    Magic portal...no attempt at a pseudo-scientific explanation...that's fantasy.

    There is tons of crossover between the two but without the science you don't got science fiction. If you have fantastical occurrences without an explanation or setting based on current theories or knowledge, or future technological developments, you've got fantasy and not SF.
  • LeoliansBro 15 Jan 2013 16:16:14 44,171 posts
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    PearOfAnguish wrote:
    Magic portal...no attempt at a pseudo-scientific explanation...that's fantasy.
    Star Wars offers no explanations for any of its technologies.

    I guess that is broad fantasy though anyway. Ignore me.

    LB, you really are a massive geek.

  • PearOfAnguish 15 Jan 2013 16:17:55 7,274 posts
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    LeoliansBro wrote:
    So: A Modest Proposal to NASA. Approve the Mars missions please so we can have more aspirational, open-minded scifi and fewer fucking zombies. Kthx.
    There are private companies planning trips to the moon. There was some speculation this could lead to movie scenes actually being filmed on the surface.

    If we're lucky they'll use Tom Cruise again and just leave him there.
  • kalel 15 Jan 2013 16:18:13 87,584 posts
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    MetalDog wrote:
    What about a robo-dragon? =D
    That's not even sci-fi. They probably exist.

    I know pushing space between genres is a bit retarded, but it's a definition I like to make because generally fantasy is a genre I struggle to get on with, and I think it is because of the different between "what if" and "imagine if".

    I find the former fascinating and is what makes me love books like The Man in the High Castle or even fun things like Jurassic Park. The thought of this stuff being so nearly possible, or perhaps even genuinely possible makes it more engaging for me.

    When that (sometimes) tenuous link with reality goes, so does my interest generally. I just can't get into stuff like Game of Thrones or whatever. Just doesn't do it for me.
  • kalel 15 Jan 2013 16:19:10 87,584 posts
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    Star Wars is definitely fantasy btw. I'd call it future fantasy like Dune, but it's (utterly nonsensically) set in the past.
  • kalel 15 Jan 2013 16:20:14 87,584 posts
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    I can accept Malkovich is borderline. It is basically magic. Fair enough.

    I maintain Eternal Sunshine is proper sci-fi though.
  • PearOfAnguish 15 Jan 2013 16:21:04 7,274 posts
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    kalel wrote:
    When that (sometimes) tenuous link with reality goes, so does my interest generally. I just can't get into stuff like Game of Thrones or whatever. Just doesn't do it for me.
    Same for me, but if you fancy it try something like Vance's The Dying Earth (set in far, far, far future version of the earth where old technology is magic) or Replay by Ken Grimwood, about a guy who keeps reliving his life. The touch of reality in those makes them, for me, easier to read then the heavy swords and sorcery stuff.

    Edited by PearOfAnguish at 16:21:37 15-01-2013
  • glaeken 15 Jan 2013 16:22:01 11,171 posts
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    Oh god we have gone down the what is and what is not Sci-Fi rabbit hole. Man I love that debate. Granted not as much these days after the 300th time but it's still a classic.

    Edited by glaeken at 16:22:21 15-01-2013
  • MetalDog 15 Jan 2013 16:23:15 23,697 posts
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    Ahh, for me it's always about the people. I don't really care what genre they're in, so long as they're people I want to spend time with and they're doing interesting things. Stories that focus more on ideas, plot or setting tend to lose my interest regardless of genre. Just personal taste.

    -- boobs do nothing for me, I want moustaches and chest hair.

  • PearOfAnguish 15 Jan 2013 16:23:42 7,274 posts
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    I know, nerds arguing on the internet. Whatever next.
  • kalel 15 Jan 2013 16:27:10 87,584 posts
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    PearOfAnguish wrote:
    kalel wrote:
    When that (sometimes) tenuous link with reality goes, so does my interest generally. I just can't get into stuff like Game of Thrones or whatever. Just doesn't do it for me.
    Same for me, but if you fancy it try something like Vance's The Dying Earth (set in far, far, far future version of the earth where old technology is magic) or Replay by Ken Grimwood, about a guy who keeps reliving his life. The touch of reality in those makes them, for me, easier to read then the heavy swords and sorcery stuff.
    Nice, they sound interesting. Thanks.
  • LeoliansBro 15 Jan 2013 16:29:03 44,171 posts
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    I tried Anvil of God and Forge of Stars by Greg Bear. They were ... OK, I guess, but I'd been promised so much that I was left feeling underwhelmed.

    LB, you really are a massive geek.

  • kalel 15 Jan 2013 16:29:14 87,584 posts
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    MetalDog wrote:
    Ahh, for me it's always about the people. I don't really care what genre they're in, so long as they're people I want to spend time with and they're doing interesting things. Stories that focus more on ideas, plot or setting tend to lose my interest regardless of genre. Just personal taste.
    Well yeah. Quite.

    Have you discovered Joe Hill yet btw?
  • disusedgenius 15 Jan 2013 16:31:00 5,314 posts
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    PearOfAnguish wrote:
    There is tons of crossover between the two but without the science you don't got science fiction.
    Hum, I can accept that. I guess it's the 'what if' aspect which gets me as much as anything - fantasy seems to have more 'what is' ifyougetwhatImean.
  • PearOfAnguish 15 Jan 2013 16:32:32 7,274 posts
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    LeoliansBro wrote:
    I tried Anvil of God and Forge of Stars by Greg Bear. They were ... OK, I guess, but I'd been promised so much that I was left feeling underwhelmed.
    Do you read much SF? Those are heavy going, Greg Bear's stuff can be dense and slow paced. Might wanna try Iain M. Banks or Stephen Baxter for some more digestible large-scale SF, or go for some older novels from the likes of Asimov, Pohl and Arthur C. Clarke, they don't tend to be as hefty.
  • MetalDog 15 Jan 2013 16:34:39 23,697 posts
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    @kalel
    I've read his collection of shorts (hit and miss for me, but that's pretty usual with shorts collections I think) and Heart Shaped Box and Horns. This may be everything he's published so far, I'm not sure.

    Out of all of them Heart Shaped Box pleased me the most, but he's yet to hit his stride, I reckon, so I'll keep watching his work with interest. He doesn't grab me as much as his pa does yet - but he may in time.

    -- boobs do nothing for me, I want moustaches and chest hair.

  • kalel 15 Jan 2013 16:35:37 87,584 posts
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    FWIW heavy sci-fi turns me off as much as heavy fantasy. I think I struggle with books that put a lot of strain on my imagination. The more detached from reality it is, the harder I find it to read. Perhaps that's not just me.

    I don't have this issue with horror, but then maybe horror is by its nature more grounded in reality?
  • LeoliansBro 15 Jan 2013 16:36:24 44,171 posts
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    Banks was too clever-clever pleased with how imaginative he was, and also wrote stories that 14 year olds write while wondering about girls. Not my cup of tea at all. Asimov I love, and ACC is brilliant although I think my favourite sci-fi of that ilk is The Demolished Man by Alfred Bester.

    LB, you really are a massive geek.

  • kalel 15 Jan 2013 16:36:59 87,584 posts
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    MetalDog wrote:
    @kalel
    I've read his collection of shorts (hit and miss for me, but that's pretty usual with shorts collections I think) and Heart Shaped Box and Horns. This may be everything he's published so far, I'm not sure.

    Out of all of them Heart Shaped Box pleased me the most, but he's yet to hit his stride, I reckon, so I'll keep watching his work with interest. He doesn't grab me as much as his pa does yet - but he may in time.
    Yeah, that's the full set I think. I thought Horns was really good. Really good.
  • MetalDog 15 Jan 2013 16:42:02 23,697 posts
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    Horns was good, but kind of lost my interest as it went along in a lot of ways. It felt like an opportunity not fully realised to me and I had trouble believing some of the actions/reactions in it, which is not good. I'd have to read it again to critique it properly, but have little desire to do so - Heart Shaped Box I'd happily read again, though.

    -- boobs do nothing for me, I want moustaches and chest hair.

  • PearOfAnguish 15 Jan 2013 16:48:04 7,274 posts
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    kalel wrote:
    FWIW heavy sci-fi turns me off as much as heavy fantasy. I think I struggle with books that put a lot of strain on my imagination. The more detached from reality it is, the harder I find it to read. Perhaps that's not just me.

    I don't have this issue with horror, but then maybe horror is by its nature more grounded in reality?
    Yeah, horror mixes reality with the unknown to play on our fears and scare the shit out of us. Can't think of any horror that's really fantastical - as in set in a completely different universe or planet or whatever - but then it's not a genre with which I'm all that familiar.

    Hard SF can be tough sometimes. Baxter's stuff I like because he's a scientist who knows his shit and has a ton of interesting ideas, but his stories still tend to be easily accessible.

    LeoliansBro wrote:
    Banks was too clever-clever pleased with how imaginative he was, and also wrote stories that 14 year olds write while wondering about girls. Not my cup of tea at all. Asimov I love, and ACC is brilliant although I think my favourite sci-fi of that ilk is The Demolished Man by Alfred Bester.
    Done Gateway by Frederik Pohl? Read Gateway. Amazing.
  • kalel 15 Jan 2013 16:49:04 87,584 posts
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    Anyhoo, I've got a couple of new books to read now which is nice.

    Not quite on topic as these are prequels, but filming on Avatar 2,3 and 4 starts this year...
  • LeoliansBro 15 Jan 2013 16:49:13 44,171 posts
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    Ack just ordered Horns.

    I'll try Gateway after.

    LB, you really are a massive geek.

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