German consumerist group snarling their teeth at Valve Page 2

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  • Dirtbox 19 Sep 2012 16:05:57 77,746 posts
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    superdelphinus wrote:
    You
    Don't
    Own
    Anything
    In
    Your
    Steam
    Library
    You never owned any of the games that were on a disc either.

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  • Dirtbox 19 Sep 2012 16:06:38 77,746 posts
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    disusedgenius wrote:
    TechnoHippy wrote:
    Steam pretty much killed PC gaming for me. So much fafing around to get anything working.
    Eh? What kind of issues did you have? If anything it's made things disturbingly simple compared to The Old Days.
    My bullshit sense is a tingling.

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  • MetalDog 19 Sep 2012 16:08:06 23,697 posts
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    Steam can be a bastard on some PC's. Particularly a few years ago - the 'you're just incompetent' arguments were rolled out back then too. I've not had issues with it myself for a few years now, but that doesn't mean it works perfectly for everyone.

    -- boobs do nothing for me, I want moustaches and chest hair.

  • Salaman 19 Sep 2012 16:10:49 18,959 posts
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    Dirtbox wrote:
    Salaman wrote:
    Razz ... I'm sure if they deem you violated their EULA they can lock you out, at any time.
    But they don't and wouldn't. The EULA was put in place to cover their arses after they got hacked and a ton of malicious shit down to them, not to mention the kids trying to scam people by selling their account and telling valve they'd been hacked to get it back. Have you ever heard of anyone having their account locked out?
    Nope. Not saying there's a massive risk you'll come home tomorrow and you'll be locked out of steam "for the lulz".
    From the previous posts it read to me as if Razz wasn't sure whether they'd be able to in theory.

    Razz wrote:
    MetalDog wrote:
    I enjoy Valve games a lot, but I still don't like Steam very much. It's not a bad thing that they're questioned on the legalities of being able to lock you out of all the stuff you've paid for.
    Whoa whoa whoa, they can do what now?
    Razz wrote:
    Ah, I thought it meant they could kick you out of steam and deny you access to your games at any time
    But the EULA thing kind of sets that precedent. Hmmm... I hope the EU court gives them a well deerved slap on the wrists.
    Salaman wrote:
    Razz ... I'm sure if they deem you violated their EULA they can lock you out, at any time.
    I'm sure that in theory they are able to. No clue if they ever do. I'm going to assume that "the kids trying to scam people" were locked out afterwards?
  • khaz 19 Sep 2012 20:20:06 2,783 posts
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    ZizouFC wrote:
    Oh, I see. That is handy.

    Sometimes Steam takes a really long time to open, which is irritating, but I think I just need to keep it open in the background.
    This has been around since Steam first started. It pisses me of to this day. It even hangs on quitting for a while!

    SAG(^&_(&_(%^YFC
  • StarkOrange 24 Sep 2012 17:52:37 4 posts
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    Honestly, what the..?

    This is what I'd like to call "complaining for the sake of complaining". Do you realize how many scammers, hackers etc that Valve is just trying to protect themselves from?

    Not accepting the new agreement is just plain dumb. Any reason against it basically comes down to "but I wantz a choice!!".

    This will never affect you. Valve WANTS you to use Steam, that's how they make money. You really think that they're going to lock you out for some reason? That you one day wake up and TADA! YOU CAN'T PLAY ANY GAMES NOW! Holy crap people, not even the worst bullshit company like EA would do this; it is the very definition of counter productive.

    It will never happen. This shouldn't be "bigger" news, because it's nothing more then people crying. Isn't the first time, won't be the last.
  • bad09 24 Sep 2012 19:01:35 5,783 posts
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    Erm...both Valve and EA DO lock people out StarkOrange. Valve up until now have seemed to do it for legitmate reasons (although many do claim they don't know what they did) but are now following EAs disgusting scam of chaining your purchase account to forum posts with the new shit community stuff.

    Hell you can buy from the wrong people you can lose your game or account, Green man gaming purchases for example have been known to cause lock outs.

    To just go "oh they say they have the power but they'll never actually do it" is moronic. People should fight for control of their purchases.

    Edited by bad09 at 19:04:57 24-09-2012
  • Stranded87 24 Sep 2012 19:09:56 890 posts
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    Yeah even if they genuinely never would lock anyone out (which as bad09 said, they do), it's the principle of the thing. They shouldn't be able to change the terms on things that I've already paid for, once one company gets away with it a precedent is set and it wont be long before the power starts getting abused.

    Then there's the fact that surely this new EULA is essentially a breach of the EU court ruling referenced in the article? I don't really know how these things work, I guess they're essentially bypassing it with the EULA, but if they can do that then couldn't most things be bypassed with a EULA? That doesn't seem very fair if so.
  • Lamb 24 Sep 2012 19:19:51 474 posts
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    How about we make better luxury cars than the Germans? Is there a EULA somewhere for that?
  • oceanmotion 24 Sep 2012 19:24:44 15,838 posts
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    Dirtbox wrote:
    superdelphinus wrote:
    You
    Don't
    Own
    Anything
    In
    Your
    Steam
    Library
    You never owned any of the games that were on a disc either.
    Yeah, those are the terms but difference is you can pretty much do the hell what you want with a disc version, not so much these days with accounts, services tied to them. Not having the fate of games you've bought decided by a service or publisher is ownership no matter what the legal stuff says.
  • bad09 24 Sep 2012 19:28:09 5,783 posts
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    oceanmotion wrote:

    Yeah, those are the terms but difference is you can pretty much do the hell what you want with a disc version, not so much these days with accounts, services tied to them. Not having the fate of games you've bought decided by a service or publisher is ownership no matter what the legal stuff says.
    Yep I don't own Fox but my Aliens blu rays are mine and will always be mine, I didn't sign Kasabian but the CD I bought is mine. Quite how the gaming industry was allowed to destroy consumer ownership the way it has is quite baffling. Hopefully one day laws will pass to kick these companies in the balls.
  • disusedgenius 24 Sep 2012 19:31:02 5,284 posts
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    It's the same with any kind of media, they're just behind the times in terms of services.
  • StarkOrange 25 Sep 2012 04:46:35 4 posts
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    @bad09 Source for anything of that? The routine google came up short.


    I don't understand how people reason with the last sentence in your post. In my opinion, Valve has actually earned the benefit of the doubt. How can you after one semi-questionable move put them in the same pile as EA for example? Or do you take 11 year olds "but i didn't do anything i swear!!!1"-posts at face value? Funny how anonymous people on the intrawebz are never given much credability except when it comes to complaining; indeed the internet mob does seem keen when it comes to pitchforks and burning witches eh?

    To assume that they're "just as bad" as other companies is just overdramatic when their track record shows just the opposite.

    I have come to know many people in real life thanks to Steam, and never have I ran into anyone that has had the slighest of problems with the client. Until that changes, or at least when people with seemingly correct lockout experiences (that is just related to Valve and not their personal incompetence) I can't think of any reason for legitimate worry on my part.
  • bad09 25 Sep 2012 07:29:38 5,783 posts
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    @StarkOrange

    Sources? You for real or trolling? Your short post life here is suspicious :)

    EA it has been well documented that people were losing games for forums posts RPS started a campaign to badger EA to change it, which they did to an extent you'll still be banned from multiplayer but thankfully your views won't lose you your single player in offline mode. Still shockingly evil anti-consumer business practice though.

    For Valve, As I said Valve did tend to only do it for valid reasons mostly so little coverage from press. Steam forums though will tell you of many disputes with Valve over accounts, calling every poster who didn't know why 11 years olds is ironically pretty juvenile especially as Valve will not tell you why they banned you a lot of the time with just a "you know why" response. I'm not saying everyone is telling the truth but many do say they have no idea what they did and can't even find out what they did wrong. The new chaining a purchase account to your views on an internet forum though is plain stupid and evil. I said it about EA with their Origin rubbish and now Valve have rather bizarrely followed the same applies. I know you don't have to post on their forums (which I now won't even to help people asking questions) but that crap just should not be legal in any sense and it's a power over your purchases they should in no way have.

    You say you know of no one having problems well good for you have a medal Steam is something that is no problem until it is a problem so I can see why people scratch their head a bit Valve are clever VERY clever, but I and many others have had some problem with the restrictive DRM of the Steam client. Personally I now buy anything Steamworks from the bargain bin or a steam sale and refuse to pay more than a tenner for retail discs using the Steam digital distribution platform as the retail DRM as a direct result of being locked out when offline mode went wonky.

    It not perfect, it is restrictive but sadly it's something we got stuck with. To say it's brilliant and it's OK for Valve to have power over your purchases and can force you to accept changes to terms AFTER purchase is absurd. These companies seem to think they can just do whatever they want and one day consumers WILL get fed up and hopefully more will start complaining to official bodies on how our rights have been erroded in the gaming industry.
  • Zizoo 25 Sep 2012 08:04:38 8,288 posts
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    khaz wrote:
    ZizouFC wrote:
    Oh, I see. That is handy.

    Sometimes Steam takes a really long time to open, which is irritating, but I think I just need to keep it open in the background.
    This has been around since Steam first started. It pisses me of to this day. It even hangs on quitting for a while!

    SAG(^&_(&_(%^YFC
    A lot faster for me recently. As far as I can tell it is just slow the first couple of times I start up a game.
  • UncleLou Moderator 25 Sep 2012 08:42:04 35,512 posts
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    StarkOrange wrote:
    Honestly, what the..?

    This is what I'd like to call "complaining for the sake of complaining". Do you realize how many scammers, hackers etc that Valve is just trying to protect themselves from?

    Not accepting the new agreement is just plain dumb. Any reason against it basically comes down to "but I wantz a choice!!".

    This will never affect you. Valve WANTS you to use Steam, that's how they make money. You really think that they're going to lock you out for some reason? That you one day wake up and TADA! YOU CAN'T PLAY ANY GAMES NOW! Holy crap people, not even the worst bullshit company like EA would do this; it is the very definition of counter productive.

    It will never happen. This shouldn't be "bigger" news, because it's nothing more then people crying. Isn't the first time, won't be the last.

    If it will never affect anyone, why do they need to put in their EULA?

    The new stuff - just one example - about not being allowed to use proxys is already keeping people from using proxys to access games earlier. In other words: Valve implements a ridiculously silly method to determine where you're from (your IP), and threatens to lock you out of your complete library if you use a (legal) proxy. And they implemented that one-sided, so that I have to agree, otherwise I lose access to my complete library as well. Uh.

    Noone except the software business would dare to treat their customers like that, and if someone really takes Valve to court, their EULAs will break down like a house of cards.
  • StarkOrange 25 Sep 2012 16:41:27 4 posts
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    @bad09 Hah, not a troll, just a very, very longtime lurker.

    "Not everyone's telling the truth"? I think the majority of people is lying. Do you think that a person who've done something to be locked out would ever admit it? Fuck no; they would deny it on their deathbed. If anything, believing people to be better than that is juvenile.

    Of course, there are the occasional person who has been locked out since his old regristration email has expired and stuff like that, but that again is just their own fault. I am not saying they do not deserve help, just that they have themselves to blame.

    Again, I see absolutely no reason to believe anonymous people over Valve with my experience and their track record.


    Though I had a sudden moment of revelation... a vision... of Valves office. There were Gabe and 4 others who discussed two alternatives for the future of Steam. They were the following:

    1. Should they continue to make millions upon millions with the current model for Steam or
    2. Should they ban/lock out people for no reason, get bad publicity and possibly lose money?

    I think the answer is obvious.

    Edited by StarkOrange at 16:43:41 25-09-2012
  • RyanDS 25 Sep 2012 17:13:35 9,268 posts
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    StarkOrange wrote:

    "Not everyone's telling the truth"? I think the majority of people is (ARE, not IS. Use the plural.)lying. Do you think that a person (PEOPLE. Again plural) who've done something to be locked out would ever admit it?
    And that is just the first bit of your incoherent rant.

    I ask this with genuine concern.

    Are you a mentalist?
  • Lamb 25 Sep 2012 17:28:33 474 posts
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    Crazy German Kid



    Someone call Colonel Shrink or the Nutty Professor! :p :D
  • Stricker 25 Sep 2012 23:57:05 10 posts
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    How do I report posts? Lamb's contribution to this topic is plain childish.
  • Chopsen 26 Sep 2012 00:29:55 15,885 posts
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    Dirtbox wrote:
    Salaman wrote:
    Razz ... I'm sure if they deem you violated their EULA they can lock you out, at any time.
    But they don't and wouldn't.
    Why not?
  • Dirtbox 26 Sep 2012 03:14:53 77,746 posts
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    Unless it's something criminal, there is no way they'd lock you out.

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  • Chopsen 26 Sep 2012 03:18:48 15,885 posts
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    Of course there's a way. That, from the publisher's point of view, is the entire point of the service. If you're naughty*, we'll take your toys away. And you've just agreed not to complain.

    (*naughty as defined unilaterally by us. Don't like the new agreement? We'll take your toys away.)
  • Dirtbox 26 Sep 2012 03:30:34 77,746 posts
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    No doubt it's publisher pressure from the likes of Activision that prompted it, as well as various hacking groups having a malicious dig at them.

    As for whether or not they'd ban you from your account if you, say for example used a proxy to unlock a game a couple of days early, then no. Not a chance.

    Edited by Dirtbox at 03:31:07 26-09-2012

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  • Stricker 26 Sep 2012 11:43:36 10 posts
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    Today is vzbz's deadline. It will be interesting to see the outcome of a potential lawsuit, as Valve will obviously not care for Steam to become a trading platform.


    Dirtbox wrote:
    No doubt it's publisher pressure from the likes of Activision that prompted it, as well as various hacking groups having a malicious dig at them.

    As for whether or not they'd ban you from your account if you, say for example used a proxy to unlock a game a couple of days early, then no. Not a chance.
    http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/forums/showthread.php?2848-Steam-will-ban-you-and-not-tell-you-why

    Edited by Stricker at 11:43:46 26-09-2012
  • StarkOrange 26 Sep 2012 14:57:36 4 posts
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    RyanDS wrote:
    StarkOrange wrote:

    "Not everyone's telling the truth"? I think the majority of people is (ARE, not IS. Use the plural.)lying. Do you think that a person (PEOPLE. Again plural) who've done something to be locked out would ever admit it?
    And that is just the first bit of your incoherent rant.

    I ask this with genuine concern.

    Are you a mentalist?

    Ah, criticising grammar on a person who haven't got English as his native language?

    I think you should visit this place. You will feel right at home!

    Edited by StarkOrange at 14:57:54 26-09-2012
  • Stricker 26 Sep 2012 16:54:30 10 posts
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    http://www.cinemablend.com/games/valve-given-more-time-address-steam-eula-consumer-protection-aims-r%20esolve-court-47276.html

    Deadline has been extended.
  • RyanDS 26 Sep 2012 17:18:01 9,268 posts
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    StarkOrange wrote:
    RyanDS wrote:
    StarkOrange wrote:

    "Not everyone's telling the truth"? I think the majority of people is (ARE, not IS. Use the plural.)lying. Do you think that a person (PEOPLE. Again plural) who've done something to be locked out would ever admit it?
    And that is just the first bit of your incoherent rant.

    I ask this with genuine concern.

    Are you a mentalist?

    Ah, criticising grammar on a person who haven't got English as his native language?

    I think you should visit this place. You will feel right at home!
    Who hasn't got English as his native language.
  • Hexagon 26 Sep 2012 19:40:27 352 posts
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    This will take ages to play out if anything. We'll still be getting news on this in five years...

    GOG for Linux!

  • Red-Moose 26 Sep 2012 19:58:14 5,346 posts
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    Dirtbox wrote:
    disusedgenius wrote:
    TechnoHippy wrote:
    Steam pretty much killed PC gaming for me. So much fafing around to get anything working.
    Eh? What kind of issues did you have? If anything it's made things disturbingly simple compared to The Old Days.
    My bullshit sense is a tingling.
    The old days as in, things played directly from the disk or that they just copied themselves to a standard directory on the hard drive?
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