The Oculus Rift; VR Finally comes of age? Page 3

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  • silentbob 6 Aug 2012 11:49:55 28,969 posts
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    ..and Epoxy. Lots of epoxy!

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  • mrpon 6 Aug 2012 12:03:29 28,893 posts
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    Immersive

    Give yourself 5 or gig, you're worth it.

  • silentbob 6 Aug 2012 12:18:48 28,969 posts
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    You laugh, but the panel in that phone isn't far off what's in the Rift. :)

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  • kalel 6 Aug 2012 13:21:46 87,564 posts
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    It's a really interesting thing that's exciting in the amount of possibilities is opens up, but I'd be wary of confusing actual potential with imagined potential. Like the wiimote and Kinect, it's the kind of thing that people start to get a bit carried away when they start imagining what they think the possibilities are, and then are disappointed when the reality hits.
  • Phattso Moderator 6 Aug 2012 13:42:29 13,324 posts
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    Depends on the person - I've always just wanted stereoscopy with decent head tracking rather than full on sci-fi VR. That's easily enough for me.

    With that premise it's possible to achieve so much. It's like adding a second analogue stick to a controller: it's a trivial addition, without much going for it in and of itself, but it opens up so much more just by being there. Greater than the sum of its parts and all that.

    But even then, this isn't "imagined potential". It's already impressing people, and I was green with envy after E3 when people got to mess with an earlier prototype.

    Hell, even just lumping it into existing games could elevate them so much higher. Skyrim with that much more immersion (and fix the fucking framerate, plus max out the detail, obviously) would be a proper jaw on the floor moment I'm sure and it's not a leap of imagination for anyone to see that I'd hope.

    Then as with any other technology, watch them iterate. It's not like Kinect, for example, when even the very best software in its opening two waves was pretty much dogshit. Rift has the potential to genuinely improve experiences from day one - and never mind the Tomorrow's World bollocks that may or may not come to pass.

    I'm just gutted that the earliest I'll be able to mess with one is next March. :(
  • LeoliansBro 6 Aug 2012 13:44:53 44,128 posts
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    What could this possibly be above stereoscopy with decent head tracking though? I don't think anything more sophisticated has been conceived yet (certainly not with a headpiece).

    LB, you really are a massive geek.

  • Phattso Moderator 6 Aug 2012 13:49:20 13,324 posts
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    This doesn't track lateral motion, so it doesn't have a sense of you in 3D space but only as motion relative to a set point. To use one example: you could physically lean around the game world.

    And plenty of products that do more sophisticated things with a headpiece have been conceived, and built. They're just staggeringly expensive and generally limited to the military. :)
  • LeoliansBro 6 Aug 2012 13:51:13 44,128 posts
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    Ah! Hadn't occurred to me that there would be tech out there that would map your 3D position, or at least that it would be tied to a headset. Makes sense I guess.

    Give me Mechwarrior with a virtual cockpit, 's all I'm asking.

    LB, you really are a massive geek.

  • Deleted user 6 August 2012 13:59:53
    LeoliansBro wrote:
    Give me Mechwarrior with a virtual cockpit, 's all I'm asking.
    Already done with MW2. We had a PC-compatible VR helmet in the internet cafe I used to manage (along with a full Virtuality pod), MW2 was one of the "officially supported" games, along with Unreal Tournament.

    Was amazingly ace for about ten minutes, then you discovered that having screens an inch from your eye and snugly fitted to your face got stupidly uncomfortable very quickly.

    That's the technology limitation they really need to overcome before this becomes "big", in my opinion.

    I also agree with kalel's comments - to me, this is sounding very much like the "3D film will CHANGE THE WAY WE WATCH FILMS" talk when it was in its infancy. The fact that this is also an old failure being tried again with modern tech (championed by a technical heavyweight - Cameron for films, Carmack for VR), strikes me as an interesting parallel. 3D done right is good, but hardly the revolution people spoke of, and for every film that gets it right, we have ten Ghost Rider 2s or Battleships or Step Up Revolution or Saw 3D or Wrath of the Titans.
  • LeoliansBro 6 Aug 2012 14:01:03 44,128 posts
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    Fine. I'll just get a Pebble Watch then :p

    LB, you really are a massive geek.

  • Phattso Moderator 6 Aug 2012 14:28:28 13,324 posts
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    It's on too small a scale to be even jokingly compared with the 3D cinema assault - and it's too niche anyway. People bitch about wearing the glasses in the cinema, so let's be honest: Joe Punter is never _ever_ gonna strap one of these on.

    But that doesn't mean it can't be an excellent niche product (and still turn enough of a profit) for people that want what it can offer. Hell, I might even go back to modding and level building if I could experience the content through one of these.

    I reckon the indie community could do some excellent work here. If the random Korean handhelds like the GP2X-Wiz can get a community, then this can too.

    I spent around this amount of cash of the Kinect - and that really was a waste. :)
  • mal 6 Aug 2012 15:05:30 22,522 posts
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    I really could give even less of a toss about the stereoscopic 3d. It's a nice to have, but it really doesn't add much that wasn't already possibly using flat 3D, in terms of immersion. Give me a call when you can do real time adaptive selective focus.

    On the other hand, the head tracking tied to the headset nature of this is genuinely interesting from a techie point of view, even if I can't see how it would work with the sort of games I enjoy.

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  • Phattso Moderator 6 Aug 2012 15:22:52 13,324 posts
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    "Doesn't add much that wasn't already possible using flat 3D" is one of the more ridiculous things I've heard today. But I'm off to bed now, to dream of 3D immersion. And tits, obviously.
  • mal 6 Aug 2012 17:12:25 22,522 posts
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    I'm sure I've written this post before, and I can't be arsed to do it again. In short, go here and look at how many monocular depth perception cues there are compared to binocular ones. Computer monitors give you all the monocular cues except for accomodation and curvilinear perspective. A stereoscopic display adds the three stereoscopic cues, but that's all. Like I said above, let me know when you've got selective focus hooked up to eye lens sensors so you can fake up accomodation, although to be fair I'd forgotten about curvilinear perspective - you'd just need the sort of eye tracking tech that already exists, sufficient wideangle coverage and a good enough refresh rate. Wikipedia suggests that would improve immersion significantly, so I'd like to give that a go.

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  • silentbob 6 Aug 2012 17:20:57 28,969 posts
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    meme wrote:
    LeoliansBro wrote:
    Give me Mechwarrior with a virtual cockpit, 's all I'm asking.
    Already done with MW2. We had a PC-compatible VR helmet in the internet cafe I used to manage (along with a full Virtuality pod), MW2 was one of the "officially supported" games, along with Unreal Tournament.

    Was amazingly ace for about ten minutes, then you discovered that having screens an inch from your eye and snugly fitted to your face got stupidly uncomfortable very quickly.

    That's the technology limitation they really need to overcome before this becomes "big", in my opinion.
    We need to be careful not to compare to closely what has gone before and what the Rift intends to become.

    Carmack himself says that anyone who has tried any form of VR HMD before needs to reset expectations, as this is far and away the best solution he's every experienced outside of military grade products. The systems you refer to will have had both a low resolution, dual panel system with an extremely narrow FOV and extremely high latency. It's this that sets the system apart. Not only is it not like having two screens in inch from your eye, but the overall effect is to completely surround your FOV with the gameworld. Furthermore, latency and framerate for the unit and associated visuals are an order of magnitude better than was capable in the 'glory days' of the previous VR generation.

    As for comparison with 3D Cinema, I don't buy it. This isn't a comparable experience nor is it aimed at the same broad marketplace (at least not initially). Flat screen 3D on a consumer panel provides only limited extra immersion and the experience is passive anyway - at best it provides a small incremental benefit to movie watching. This system provides a far more natural way to interact with a virtual gameworld, potentially transforming the experience.

    I think this is a big deal (in case you hadn't guessed). I remain optimistic at it's potential and it's appeal to gamers across the board.

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  • LeoliansBro 6 Aug 2012 17:25:51 44,128 posts
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    I used to play Rogue Squadron on the Gamecube through my projector onto my wall at ludicrous size, maybe about 200". You needed the room to be completely dark for it to really work but my God! Huge dramatic backdrops pinwheeling effortlessly as you ducked and dived in and out of the action, an exploding Tie Fighter made you wince from the glare, and the start of the Endor mission was truly, utterly cinematic!

    Not sure why that fits in here, but I guess that's the kind of feel I want from VR tech. In fact, I'm going to boot that up again this evening. One of the best games ever.

    LB, you really are a massive geek.

  • Deleted user 6 August 2012 17:28:39
    I was comparing them in the sense of the screens being strapped an inch from your eye in a headset, not the FOV and latency. I know they've hugely improved that, but it's still fundamentally a device that I'm pretty certain is going to be uncomfortable for extended use. That was what I was getting at. If it's going to hugely immerse me in a world, but only do it for fifteen minutes at a time before I want to take it off, that's a major stumbling block.
  • silentbob 6 Aug 2012 17:29:15 28,969 posts
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    mal wrote:
    I'm sure I've written this post before, and I can't be arsed to do it again. In short, go here and look at how many monocular depth perception cues there are compared to binocular ones. Computer monitors give you all the monocular cues except for accomodation and curvilinear perspective. A stereoscopic display adds the three stereoscopic cues, but that's all. Like I said above, let me know when you've got selective focus hooked up to eye lens sensors so you can fake up accomodation, although to be fair I'd forgotten about curvilinear perspective - you'd just need the sort of eye tracking tech that already exists, sufficient wideangle coverage and a good enough refresh rate. Wikipedia suggests that would improve immersion significantly, so I'd like to give that a go.
    There is a learning curve to these devices, your eye can pivot 45 degrees whilst wearing the HMD, so there will be an element of learning to fixing the focus in the general middle of the available image.

    However, what you don't cover above is that this isn't a standard stereoscopic display. It offers in excess of 90 degrees FOV, meaning that your brain fills in the gaps of any existing cues required (to an extent). The upshot of this approach is that your brain is much more willing to accept the surrounding experience without the need for focus cues.

    Incidentally, focal tracking in consumer devices is a ways off yet. Much more important is lowering latency so that simulation sickness doesn't kick in when the virtual world lags behind your physical reference. Sub 20ms latency and 120Hz displays are more important than focus tracking for this first phase - and by all accounts what there is provides a pretty compelling and comfortable experience.

    It does feel to me mal, that you're searching for reasons to dislike the technology rather than giving it a chance. Dismissing it with 'not for me' without even trying it is frankly silly.

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  • silentbob 6 Aug 2012 17:33:43 28,969 posts
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    meme wrote:
    I was comparing them in the sense of the screens being strapped an inch from your eye in a headset, not the FOV and latency. I know they've hugely improved that, but it's still fundamentally a device that I'm pretty certain is going to be uncomfortable for extended use. That was what I was getting at. If it's going to hugely immerse me in a world, but only do it for fifteen minutes at a time before I want to take it off, that's a major stumbling block.
    And my point is that you proceed from an experience unlike what's available with Rift. The indications are that the system (single panel with special optics) is far more comfortable and viable for long term gaming. You don't have two panels 1 inch from your eye, you have one panel exposed but two sets of optics - the difference is important and crucial.

    Anyway, you maybe right, I haven't tried it yet. But I've read and listened to those who have and the one uniform thing that they have to say is that it isn't like anything they've tried before.

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  • mal 6 Aug 2012 17:34:15 22,522 posts
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    I'd hope the Oculus Rift will similate a decently big screen, which is nice - but there's a limit given you can only move your eyes not your head, as it's going to be a pain if it's too big and they still put the HUD elements right at the edge of the screen.

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  • Deleted user 6 August 2012 17:39:39
    Doesn't matter if you have one panel, two panels or a million, whether it's low-res or billions of pixels, it's still an inch from your eye and strapped tightly to your face. Even with clever mirroring and whatnot to make it seem like it's actually 20ft away, it's still quite uncomfortable for most people after not a great deal of time.

    Again, I'm not talking about the experience that you get from it, which I'm sure is ace, and for the first few times probably massively overshadows any comfort complaints - what I'm talking about has literally nothing to do with the display technology.
  • silentbob 6 Aug 2012 17:40:03 28,969 posts
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    There's no doubt alterations will have to be made to games to work properly with VR in mind. Carmack talks about various changes he made to make the experience more pleasant.

    Again though, I think you think this device is akin to the Sony HMZ - which gives the impression of looking at a big screen which seems to be some distance away. The rift surrounds much more of your FOV with the image - giving a much more wrapped-around experience.

    There are more challenges than just HUDs anyway. Because the image from the optics is so distorted, a corrected image must be presented to the panel to counteract this. Carmack knocked up a shader to do this relatively quickly however - and I'd guess than any such correction will be built into any SDK which appears from Oculus down the line.

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  • silentbob 6 Aug 2012 17:47:35 28,969 posts
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    meme wrote:
    Doesn't matter if you have one panel, two panels or a million, whether it's low-res or billions of pixels, it's still an inch from your eye and strapped tightly to your face. Even with clever mirroring and whatnot to make it seem like it's actually 20ft away, it's still quite uncomfortable for most people after not a great deal of time.

    Again, I'm not talking about the experience that you get from it, which I'm sure is ace, and for the first few times probably massively overshadows any comfort complaints - what I'm talking about has literally nothing to do with the display technology.
    Rift weighs 220grams I think, so not too bad in terms of physical burdon. I hear what you're saying and as I say I can't in this case comment until receive the thing.

    I guess I'll pick it up again then.

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  • silentbob 6 Aug 2012 20:49:43 28,969 posts
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    MBS3D member hands-on, one of the most exciting and intriguing write up I've read here

    From a member of forum dedicated to this stuff, high praise indeed.

    Edited by silentbob at 21:14:05 06-08-2012

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  • mal 6 Aug 2012 21:31:51 22,522 posts
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    silentbob wrote:Again though, I think you think this device is akin to the Sony HMZ - which gives the impression of looking at a big screen which seems to be some distance away. The rift surrounds much more of your FOV with the image - giving a much more wrapped-around experience.
    I honestly had no idea what it looks like looking inside one of these things. It's been a few days since I've checked the KS site - have they been posting more stuff on there?

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  • silentbob 6 Aug 2012 21:37:53 28,969 posts
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    The beginning of the above thread with a full detailed review with a very early sample unit by Carmack with plenty of discussion and counterpoints by Palmer Luckey himself.

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  • mal 6 Aug 2012 22:01:06 22,522 posts
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    Yeah, just been following that. Rather enlightening.

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  • silentbob 6 Aug 2012 22:21:54 28,969 posts
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    Quakecon Virtual Reality keynote with Carmack and Luckey plus Michael Abrash from Valve software!

    Edited by silentbob at 22:24:39 06-08-2012

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  • silentbob 7 Aug 2012 08:44:43 28,969 posts
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    Interesting to note from the panel video above that Michael Abrash was obviously not allowed to say what Valve were working on (or even that were working on anything), but the impression I got is that their R+D department are pretty excited and that there probably is a project of some sort ongoing right now.

    Pretty awesome really. The possibility of working a VR element into their middleware for the next generation of Source would be fantastic. Hell, retrofitting extensions to the existing source engine would be incredible considering the amount of older software that could potentially make VR enabled (if not quite VR ready).

    Edited by silentbob at 08:54:41 07-08-2012

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  • silentbob 7 Aug 2012 09:52:13 28,969 posts
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    The full MTBS3D Rift thread here (starting at the point where most of us would be interested)

    Palmer seems to update regularly and loads more information on how the dev kits will look and, more importantly, that they're already geared up to scale production to the tens of thousands of units when they need to.

    Edited by silentbob at 09:52:28 07-08-2012

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