Will Gay Marriage finally cause the separation of Church and State?

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  • spamdangled 12 Jun 2012 16:18:23 27,378 posts
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    This is what is being suggested today, as the COE continues to prove how irrelevant it is.

    Should the COE continue to be the officially recognised religion of the state? What benefits does it bring?

    Should it just divorce itself from the state completely?

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  • grey_matters 12 Jun 2012 16:23:11 3,776 posts
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    What is the advantage of separation?
  • neilka 12 Jun 2012 16:23:45 16,115 posts
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    Yes, but mainly because Church and State are what I call my left and right buttocks.

    Lastly, I am gay, disabled, and a liberal.

  • spamdangled 12 Jun 2012 16:25:15 27,378 posts
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    grey_matters wrote:
    What is the advantage of separation?
    Mostly symbolic, but it would arguably lead to a lower level of influence of religion over policy matters.

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  • glaeken 12 Jun 2012 16:26:10 11,199 posts
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    I actually thought gay marriage was already legal. Didnít Elton John get married?

    As for the COE I don't really see how they are relevant to anything.
  • spamdangled 12 Jun 2012 16:26:42 27,378 posts
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    You're thinking of Civil Partnerships.

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  • TheSaint 12 Jun 2012 16:29:50 14,497 posts
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    If it does then it is long overdue.
  • grey_matters 12 Jun 2012 16:32:18 3,776 posts
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    darkmorgado wrote:
    grey_matters wrote:
    What is the advantage of separation?
    Mostly symbolic, but it would arguably lead to a lower level of influence of religion over policy matters.
    Here in Ireland, they are separated by the constitution. However, religion still had a huge influence up until fairly recently (and is still reasonably large). The symbolism is important but don't expect the influence thing to change as a direct result.
  • kalel 12 Jun 2012 16:32:49 87,933 posts
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    There's actually two separate issues that have got smushed together for me.

    1) "Marriage" is a religious thing. All non-religious unions, gay or otherwise, should be classed as a Civil Partnership.

    2) The issue of whether gay people should be allowed to marry in the religious sense.
  • grey_matters 12 Jun 2012 16:34:00 3,776 posts
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    kalel wrote:
    There's actually two separate issues that have got smushed together for me.

    1) "Marriage" is a religious thing. All non-religious unions, gay or otherwise, should be classed as a Civil Partnership.

    2) The issue of whether gay people should be allowed to marry in the religious sense.
    Yeah, I feel roughly the same. Although marriage has existed prior to Christianity on these islands as far as I can recall and I wouldn't like to cede ownership of the word too easily.

    Edited by grey_matters at 16:35:51 12-06-2012
  • Deleted user 12 June 2012 16:35:10
    "Will you Civil Partnership me?" :D
  • AcidSnake 12 Jun 2012 16:35:37 7,285 posts
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    @Kalel:
    Not sure how the law works over there, but do married couples and Civil Partner unions have the same rights and benefits?

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  • ecureuil 12 Jun 2012 16:35:53 76,879 posts
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    Marriage was around long before any religions as we know them, it's something religion has basically hijacked and made their own. Bit like Christianity and Christmas..
  • spamdangled 12 Jun 2012 16:35:59 27,378 posts
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    Marriage existed a long time before christianity got its paws on it.

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  • TheSaint 12 Jun 2012 16:36:09 14,497 posts
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    When gay people get married/civil partnership do they take the same surname?
  • Deleted user 12 June 2012 16:36:30
    Isn't this gay people trying to rewrite religion to suit themselves?
  • spamdangled 12 Jun 2012 16:36:46 27,378 posts
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    AcidSnake wrote:
    @Kalel:
    Not sure how the law works over there, but do married couples and Civil Partner unions have the same rights and benefits?
    Broadly, but not quite.

    For instance, adultery is not grounds for divorce in civil partnerships.

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  • spamdangled 12 Jun 2012 16:37:12 27,378 posts
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    Aargh. wrote:
    Isn't this gay people trying to rewrite religion to suit themselves?
    How? Gay marriage will be civil ceremonies, not religious.

    And it's not like the church is above rewriting religion to suit itself.

    Edited by darkmorgado at 16:37:43 12-06-2012

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  • X201 12 Jun 2012 16:38:08 15,530 posts
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    It could be the church's biggest quandary since The Great Schism of 1378


    Not actually sure. Just wanted say "The Great Schism of 1378" :)
  • spamdangled 12 Jun 2012 16:39:05 27,378 posts
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    TheSaint wrote:
    When gay people get married/civil partnership do they take the same surname?
    Not by default. If they do, they need to go down the deed-poll route.

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  • glaeken 12 Jun 2012 16:39:28 11,199 posts
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    Why don't they just rename Civil Partnership to Marriage. Only it will be government approved marriage rather than church. Seems a simple solution.

    Edited by glaeken at 16:40:13 12-06-2012
  • Deleted user 12 June 2012 16:40:16
    Separation of Church and State in absolutely no way guarantees lower levels of religious influence on politics, as the US demonstrates.
  • AcidSnake 12 Jun 2012 16:40:44 7,285 posts
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    In that case...

    That would be an ecumenical matter!

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  • TheSaint 12 Jun 2012 16:40:57 14,497 posts
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    darkmorgado wrote:
    TheSaint wrote:
    When gay people get married/civil partnership do they take the same surname?
    Not by default. If they do, they need to go down the deed-poll route.
    Thanks, was wondering about that when I heard about this on the news this morning.
  • spamdangled 12 Jun 2012 16:41:16 27,378 posts
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    @glaeken

    That's basically what's happening. The discrepancies will be ironed out, and gay marriage will be civil rather than religious (except where certain religions wish to perform it, such as the Quakers)

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  • Nanocrystal 12 Jun 2012 16:41:32 1,036 posts
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    X201 wrote:
    It could be the church's biggest quandary since The Great Schism of 1378
    Was that the one about how many nails were used to crucify Jesus?
  • spamdangled 12 Jun 2012 16:42:23 27,378 posts
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    meme wrote:
    Separation of Church and State in absolutely no way guarantees lower levels of religious influence on politics, as the US demonstrates.
    I always wondered about that. Surely the whole "one nation under god" thing sort of means that church and state are pretty much entwined in America?

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  • Khanivor 12 Jun 2012 16:43:59 40,865 posts
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    darkmorgado wrote:
    Marriage existed a long time before Judaism/Islam/Budhism/Shinto/christianity got its paws on it.
    There's a lot of interesting history concering the Church and marriage. A brief summation of how the Church's recalcitrance requires an exceedingly myopic view of the issue.
  • kalel 12 Jun 2012 16:44:54 87,933 posts
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    glaeken wrote:
    Why don't they just rename Civil Partnership to Marriage. Only it will be government approved marriage rather than church. Seems a simple solution.
    There's nothing wrong with the distinction of Civil Partnership and Marriage. The issue is that currently heterosexuals don't have civil partnerships, which is where the inequality kicks in.

    Yes, the word "marriage" itself may not be religious in origin, but so what. Let them have their word if it means so much to them. Who cares.
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