The Kill List thread Page 3

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  • bionic_v2 17 Jan 2012 21:19:30 116 posts
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    I just might sit though the film again, if only to attempt to pick up on what I might have missed the first time around. I somehow know I didn't miss much the first time around.

    without knowing anything about the film, prior to watching it, the scene where the 2 hitmen meet up with the guy who pays them, i wondered why one hitman gets his hand cut and the other doesn't ? you'd have thought both would be required to have their hands cut ?

    also, why does the human resources woman take the tissues with blood on from the house ? - When i noticed this, i assumed it was all going to be part of a set up (blood / dna). I thought that just maybe one hitman was setting up the other. But no, none of my thoughts came into play.
  • Blaketown 17 Jan 2012 22:46:51 4,955 posts
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    Both the hand cutting and the mirror carving are part of the witchcraft the cult is using to control him.

    I think

    Edited by Blaketown at 22:47:14 17-01-2012

    Brap, brap, old chap.

  • bionic_v2 18 Jan 2012 23:13:55 116 posts
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    From the start of film to the end of the film: Reading between the lines, beyond the filler designed to lead the viewer into believing it’s a basic story about two hitmen earning some much need cash.

    £40,000 all gone

    Jay has done no work for 8 months

    Shel - ‘There’s nothing wrong with your back, its all in your f-cking head’

    Jays has a Jacuzzi for his imaginary back problem

    Jay takes some pills in the bathroom (he suffers with PTSD)

    Jay cuts himself shaving
    (caused as a result of his kid Sam slapping him on the back)

    Jay and Shel chat in the kitchen, Shel has invited two guests for dinner (Fiona and Gal) One of whole becomes Jay’s partner in (Hitmen) crime, and the other (Fiona) who claims to be a Human Resources person (and is also part of a Cult).

    Shel is seen sitting on the bed in tears chatting on the telephone in a foreign language (Swedish)
    What’s that about ?

    In the Garden:
    Shel carries her son Sam on her back (piggy back style) while sword fighting / play fighting Jay in the garden. (at the end of the film, this set up happens all over again, with Shel carrying her son on her back)

    The Dinner:
    The two guests arrive, Fiona and Gal. We learn that Shel is Swedish and was in the Swedish National Service. (at the end of the film Shel is seen being handy with a gun)

    Jay and Gal are in the garden chatting about a Job, that pays good money.
    It seems Gal has already told Shel about the job, before telling Jay.

    When Jay asks Fiona what she does, she replies ‘human resources’ with a smirk.
    Later during conversation, there’s the comment:
    ‘There’s a lot of dirty work to be done’ - Fiona

    On first viewing, I got the impression Fiona works in some office as a HR manager. Looking back, I guess she’s the one looking to get people ‘Jay’ into the Cult, and the dirty work points to killing.

    There’s an argument between Jay and Shel. Iraq isn’t over for Jay. The pair make up.

    Fiona goes to the Bathroom, and carves a cross with a triangle on the back of a mirror. She takes the tissues, that Jay used to soak up blood when he cut himself shaving, stuffs them in her bra.
    It’s here the viewer learns that there is more to Fiona than simply being a Human Resources person.

    The following morning:
    Jays son Sam is telling Jay, who is asleep in bed, to wake up.

    In the Garden:
    Jay finds the remains of a Rabbit in the garden.
    My guess is, Fiona was behind it.

    Hotel:
    Jay and Gal go to meet The Client
    In a Hotel room there is money on the table.
    The Client produces a knife and cuts Jays hand, not Gal’s hand, and cuts his own hand, and presses down on a piece of paper, signing a contract with blood.

    There’s some small talk:
    ‘I here Kiev was ---’ - The Client
    ‘I’m in the process of re writing it’ - Jay
    ‘Good - It’s important one learns from one’s mistakes’ - The Client

    Hotel bathroom: Jay’s cleaning the blood off his hand.
    How does The Client know Jay was in Kiev. What relevance is it ?
    ‘It’s psychology in it’ - Gal

    The way Jay and Gal talk about exiting the Hotel without the staff knowing Jay has cut his hand sounds like a military operation.


    The 2 hitmen Jay and Gal begin killing as hitmen:

    Target 1 The Priest
    On seeing Jay point a at him, the Priest is not shocked, but happy. The Priest is happy to be shot dead. We have to assume he was a member of the Cult, and dying is a good thing.
    Gal comments on the Priest smiling knowing he is about to get a bullet in the head.

    In the hotel room Jay speaks to Shel via a laptop. Shel mentions Fiona has paid a visit to the house, and given Sam a present. Quite what the pointing of knowing this info is, is a mystery.

    Target 2 A distributor of pornography.

    Parked outside the lock up (where Target 2 works) Jay mentions to Gal that Fiona is with Shel at the house. Says Fiona’s ‘waiting’. Waiting for what ? Or who ? - Gal mentions to Jay that Fiona is a Demon in bed.

    Jay takes Target 2 apart in the kitchen of the victims house. Each time Jay hits Target 2 he thanks Jay, just like the Priest was happy to be shot. I guess we have to assume Target 1 and Target 2 belong to the same Cult and expect the same fate. Maybe it is both Target 1 and Target 2 who provide the Cult with money (along with other Cult members). Target 2 has a lot on money in his safe.

    Target 3 Not too clear who or what he does ?
    The location is a Skip yard at night. Gal waits outside while Jay enters the building. 20 minutes later Gal enters the building to see why Jay is taking so long. Gal spots some guy and a dog both shot dead. Then Gal finds Jay taking apart a second person. I’m not sure if both these people were on the Kill List.

    Burning the bodies of the final two victims, Jay comments to Gal that what they have done (kill) does not feel wrong, as the people they have killed are bad people and deserve to die. What did the Priest do to warrant being bad ?

    Back at the hotel Jay looks out through his hotel room window to see a woman wearing white waving up at him. Jay waves back. Its Fiona wearing the white dress.

    The jobs (killing) done. Gal drops Jay home. Shel isn’t expecting Jay back. Fiona’s at the house too. Shel and Fiona have being enjoying a glass of wine. Jay goes upstairs to freshen up and notices his upper body is covered in a rash. He shows Shel, and she thinks its an infection linked to the cut on Jay’s hand, which isn’t healing too well.

    Jay visit’s the doctor. Jay admits he is suffering from stress and fatigue. Jay blames ‘financial stuff’.

    Jay - ‘my wife says I’ve got to come so you can look at my hand’
    Doctor - ‘your fine’
    Jay - ‘yeah but my hand isn’t, do you want to look at it ?’
    Doctor - ‘better still I can give you some advise’
    Jay - ‘what happened to doctor Bapkin ?’
    Doctor - ‘the past is gone. the future is not yet here. there is only ever this moment’
    Jay ‘ok..’

    Why doesn’t the doctor want to look at Jay’s hand ? Is the doctor part of the Cult to ?


    We see Gal looking through some documents, paper work, images. It appears that someone was talking photo’s of Gal and Jay while they were waiting outside, before they killed. There’s an image of a large dark figure, cloaked. Gal’s drinking what appears to be whisky from a glass.

    Back at the house Jay is on the couch taking medication, washing it down with what appears to be whisky in a glass. Beside him, Sam plays.

    This cuts back to Gal, who continues to flick through documents, one of which as ‘the’ cult symbol on, and another marked Kiev.

    Shel calls Jay over, as their black cat is now dead and hanging outside the front door. it’s a message of some sort ? - from the cult. My guess is, its either Fiona or Shel who killed the cat.

    Gal visits Jay at home, and mentions the file containing stuff on Kiev and the photo’s of him and Jay outside the Priests house. Gel admits its fucking with his head, and wants out (of killing). Jay see’s things through until the end, and wants to continue.

    Jay goes for a walk with his son Sam. On returning home, Jay and Shel talk. Jay wants to put the whole cat thing behind them. Shel bursts into a mini rant hitting Jay telling him to ‘wake up’. I think Shel is trying to tell Jay to wake up to the situation, as there’s more going on than simply gypsies or kids killing a cat.
    It then cuts to Jay asleep in bed.


    Jay and Gal meet once again with The Client. They want out (of the Killing thing).
    They are told ‘no’ they can’t stop, and are offered more money.
    They are also warned that to quit would result in their death, and their families death.
    The Client tells Jay and Gal that he see’s them for what they are ‘cogs’
    Gals says ‘what the fuck is this ?’
    The Client replies ‘reconstruction’ and ‘keep turning’ - presumably like a cog ?

    I get the impression the Client is powerful, and views Jay and Gal like small parts on a machine, as part of his Cult game ?


    On returning home, Shel tells Jay that she is moving out to the cottage and taking their son Sam with her, until the jobs ‘over’. I guess Shel thinks, until the job ‘is over’ more weird stuff (dead rabbits, cats) might happen. As we now know, the job will never be over.


    Target 4 The M.P.
    Out in the woods, Gal comments ‘this feels good’ and Jay comments ‘what, killing rich people’ to which Gal replies ‘fresh air’. Maybe its all about money. The Kill List is a list of Rich people, and also members of The Cult.

    During the mission to kill the M.P. Gal and Jay see The Cult, walking around a large fire, wearing straw masks. A woman is hanged. Jay opens fire, and The Cult rush towards Jay and Gal, who retreat into an underground tunnel. Gal ends up dead, and Jay goes to the cottage to where Shel and Sam are, commenting to himself ‘its all over’.

    Some things not quite right. Jay looks outside, and the car tyres been slashed. Jay returns inside and begins turning off the house lights. The Cult’s outside. Jay heads outside to fire some bullets. There’s many flames on poles. Jay goes back inside an hands Shel a gun to protect herself while he goes outside to kill them all, as ‘there’s not many of them’. Outside, Jay is knocked to the ground, but not killed. Shel starts to pick off one by one people dressed in black.

    The Hunchback. The way the word appears on the screen is the same as when the word The M.P. appeared on the screen. it’s a way of telling the viewer, Target 5 is next, and Target 5 is The Hunchback.

    We see a hooded figure, a member of The Cult. Jay is unconscious on the ground. There’s girl with thorns wrapped around her bleeding face. Jay is dragged up, and they cut his already cut hand again. Straw masked people remove Jay’s top and make him wear a straw mask, and put a knife in his hand. Moving towards Jay is someone wearing a star mask, white sheet and holding a knife. This is The Hunchback. It’s a fight. Jay vs. The Hunchback. Who will win ? There’s only one way to find out - FIGHT!

    Jay makes a stab, and there’s a scream. Jay stabs a second time. Jay stabs The Hunchback in the back for a third time, there’s a scream. Jay stabs some more and The Hunchback falls to the ground. The straw wearing Cult audience clap in approval. Among the audience is The Clint who removes his own straw mask. Fiona too is there, she removes her own straw mask.

    Jay pulls the mask from The Hunchback and it turns out to be his wife Shel. Her face has blood on it, then she begins to laugh like she is not dead at all. On her back she was carrying their son Sam, who appears to be dead. Sam must have taken all the stabs.

    They place a crown of straw on Jay’s head. He must now be some sort of ?

    Symbol

    KILL LIST

    the end / credits

    what was all that about ?




    Watching the film a second time, and making the notes above, hasn’t help explain the film, although it has raised some more questions:

    The killing of Sam, what’s the significance ?

    Shel being Swedish, does that have any significance ?

    I don’t buy the whole ‘it was a dream’ theory.
    Although the visit to the Doctor’s was odd.
  • bionic_v2 19 Jan 2012 19:04:59 116 posts
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    Today I entertained the idea that the whole cult and Gal partnership were the imagination of Jay.

    We see Gal looking through some documents, paper work, images. It appears that someone was talking photo’s of Gal and Jay while they were waiting outside, before they killed. There’s an image of a large dark figure, cloaked. Gal’s drinking what appears to be whisky from a glass.

    Back at the house Jay is on the couch taking medication, washing it down with what appears to be whisky in a glass. Beside him, Sam plays.

    I started to think while Jay drinks whisky, we see what he (Jay) is thinking when we see Gal drinking whisky in a world that is simply the imagination of Jay. Possibly the cut on Jays hand was self inflicted. This took be back to the film a Beautiful Mind.


    I read an interesting reply on another forum:

    To put it very generally, Kill List is a metaphor for the ills of contemporary Britain.

    Its protagonists are two soldiers who fought in a morally unjustified war, and whose moral compases have been correspondingly misaligned. They go from serving in the Iraq, to working for a PMC, to becoming civilian contract killers – a perverse, slippery slope.

    The targets, meanwhile, are custodians of religious, cultural, and political traditions, and they’re all corrupt.

    The “clients”, in turn, take advantage of Jay and Gal’s financial worries – another timely concern – and enlist them to do their bidding, but this ultimately results in the violence that they’ve been used to meting out against faceless foreigners becoming very personal indeed.


    One thing is for sure, at the end of Kill List, the finnal face Jay see's is that of his foreign wife.

    Edited by bionic_v2 at 19:08:35 19-01-2012
  • chopsen 19 Jan 2012 19:58:27 16,290 posts
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    For someone who doesn't like the film, you're investing a lot of energy in it
  • Stickman 19 Jan 2012 20:18:53 29,664 posts
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    Do Toy Story next!

    THIS SPACE FOR RENT

  • bionic_v2 20 Jan 2012 07:29:45 116 posts
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    Chopsen wrote:
    For someone who doesn't like the film, you're investing a lot of energy in it
    The *attempting* to work it out, I find fascinating. I just don't have much love for the film itself, its production values. It looks made for TV, which I found off putting. I guess I like the concept, but feel it could have been made better in the hands of the right team.

    on a more important note: IT'S FRIDAY - YES!!! :)

    Edited by bionic_v2 at 07:31:04 20-01-2012
  • binster 20 Jan 2012 11:55:22 542 posts
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    One random thought about the film. The bit where he finds, cooks and eats the rabbit carcass. I couldn't really get my head around that and make it fit with the rest of the film.

    Then I thought - what if it is a sacrifice, and he is a god?

    Dunno if that theory works for the rest of the film, though.
  • Oh-Bollox 20 Jan 2012 15:55:34 5,435 posts
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    Target 2 A distributor of pornography.
    You seem to have alternated between memorising and ignoring bits of the film. The second target, IIRC, is a librarian, and this comes up on screen. You can safely assume what Jay and Gal saw in the lock up wasn't your average porn film, given their disgust.

    Target 3 Not too clear who or what he does ?
    I'm almost sure this is a wind-up. Almost. I'm not quite sure how you can watch a film, and completely miss a link, provided in dialogue, between subsequent scenes. They interrogate the librarian, and he gives them an address. This is the place.

    Gal’s drinking what appears to be whisky from a glass.

    Back at the house Jay is on the couch taking medication, washing it down with what appears to be whisky in a glass.
    No, this is simply not believable. This is definitely a wind-up.
  • bionic_v2 20 Jan 2012 18:05:59 116 posts
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    Oh-Bollox wrote:
    Target 2 A distributor of pornography.
    You seem to have alternated between memorising and ignoring bits of the film. The second target, IIRC, is a librarian, and this comes up on screen. You can safely assume what Jay and Gal saw in the lock up wasn't your average porn film, given their disgust.

    Target 3 Not too clear who or what he does ?
    I'm almost sure this is a wind-up. Almost. I'm not quite sure how you can watch a film, and completely miss a link, provided in dialogue, between subsequent scenes. They interrogate the librarian, and he gives them an address. This is the place.

    Gal’s drinking what appears to be whisky from a glass.

    Back at the house Jay is on the couch taking medication, washing it down with what appears to be whisky in a glass.
    No, this is simply not believable. This is definitely a wind-up.
    Not a wind up. On the second viewing I skipped though the film. I wanted to focus on the key points, while ignoring the gumph that bloats script. At one level there appears to be a story about a couple of hit men, and at another level, there's triggers that point to something else.

    I'm stilling working out what they mean by 'cogs'. I know what a cog is, a part of a machine. Maybe I got it, Jay and Gal are nothing more than cogs as part of the machince called life. It just so happens that Gal is nothing more than a killer, weather it be war, hitmen, cult - it all amounts to nothing more than murder, how ever it is wapped up.

    Edited by bionic_v2 at 18:07:07 20-01-2012
  • Flightrisker 20 Jan 2012 18:35:12 18,138 posts
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    I watched this the other night. Pretty strong stuff. After it I needed what appears to be whiskey in a glass.
  • Deleted user 20 January 2012 19:29:05
    @Flightrisker Heh.
  • smugla 20 Jan 2012 22:02:59 2,136 posts
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    From what i understand they all knew who jay was and were saying "thank you and asks jay "does he know who you are? and im glad to have met you " to him specifically infact the Librarian went out of his way to say it to jay and after the hunchback they put a kind of crown on his head???

    But in the second meeting with the client when they were going to back out
    they were called "A couple of cocks"

    when he went to the doctor the doctor told him "theres nothing wrong with your hand"
  • binster 20 Jan 2012 23:56:08 542 posts
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    To continue my 'Jay is God' thought-cul-de-sac - his son dies at the end. Just like JESUS.
  • bionic_v2 21 Jan 2012 16:03:35 116 posts
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    smugla wrote:
    From what i understand they all knew who jay was and were saying "thank you and asks jay "does he know who you are? and im glad to have met you " to him specifically infact the Librarian went out of his way to say it to jay and after the hunchback they put a kind of crown on his head???

    But in the second meeting with the client when they were going to back out
    they were called "A couple of cocks"

    when he went to the doctor the doctor told him "theres nothing wrong with your hand"
    It sounds like 'cogs' not 'cocks' to me.
  • Lukey__b 21 Jan 2012 16:09:06 3,716 posts
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    I want to watch this film again now.

    The theory that he is being knowingly inducted into the cult..... err, how come he doesn't seem to know?

    'Sup, what's guanine?

  • smugla 21 Jan 2012 16:23:18 2,136 posts
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    @bionic_v2

    yep your 100 percent correct its cogs not cocks just re whatched the scene
  • Nanocrystal 23 Jan 2012 01:36:56 1,132 posts
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    Enjoyed this film a lot. I don't feel the need to analyse it or understand every detail. I liked the ambiguity, and for me that was kinda the whole point of it. It wasn't supposed to be a tightly plotted movie, more of a dream-like Lynchian thing. Reminded me a lot of Mulholland Dr, actually, which is praise indeed.
  • bionic_v2 23 Jan 2012 06:57:24 116 posts
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    Nanocrystal wrote:
    Enjoyed this film a lot. I don't feel the need to analyse it or understand every detail. I liked the ambiguity, and for me that was kinda the whole point of it. It wasn't supposed to be a tightly plotted movie, more of a dream-like Lynchian thing. Reminded me a lot of Mulholland Dr, actually, which is praise indeed.
    That's plain misleading. Never once does Kill List come anywhere near close to anything David Lynch has put out.
  • bionic_v2 23 Jan 2012 06:58:32 116 posts
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    smugla wrote:
    @bionic_v2

    yep your 100 percent correct its cogs not cocks just re whatched the scene
    I'm still Lol'ding - *cocks* XD
  • Nanocrystal 23 Jan 2012 12:39:09 1,132 posts
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    bionic_v2 wrote:
    Nanocrystal wrote:
    Enjoyed this film a lot. I don't feel the need to analyse it or understand every detail. I liked the ambiguity, and for me that was kinda the whole point of it. It wasn't supposed to be a tightly plotted movie, more of a dream-like Lynchian thing. Reminded me a lot of Mulholland Dr, actually, which is praise indeed.
    That's plain misleading. Never once does Kill List come anywhere near close to anything David Lynch has put out.
    How is it misleading? Kill List felt like it was aiming for the surreal, nightmarish feel of Lynch's movies. I'm not saying it's as good as Mulholland Dr (it isn't), just that it's trying to achieve something similar.

    Edited by Nanocrystal at 12:41:15 23-01-2012
  • Blaketown 23 Jan 2012 13:01:42 4,955 posts
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    Reminded me of Mulholland Drive in that it's much more about feeling and atmosphere than traditional A-B narrative. Don't know what the problem is with saying that.

    Brap, brap, old chap.

  • Oh-Bollox 5 Feb 2012 02:11:25 5,435 posts
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    Really enjoyed the commentary tracks, the cast one is a good laugh, the writer/director one is informative about the film. Maskell and Smiley in particular make some very wrong jokes indeed.
  • spindle9988 9 Apr 2012 23:31:18 3,676 posts
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    Just watched this and came straight to this thread. After reading every page I am glad I'm not the only one who didnt have a clue what it was about
  • Nanocrystal 10 Apr 2012 02:32:42 1,132 posts
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    Watched this for a second time last night and loved it. Right now my feeling is that it's a metaphor for how soldiers are used by their government to kill, then lauded as heroes upon their return while not being given the help they need to overcome their trauma. Particularly the last scene where the main character is crowned and applauded by the MP.

    The death cult interpretation works too I guess, but is a bit too literal for me.
  • Genji 10 Apr 2012 03:00:29 19,687 posts
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    You can have both, though. I basically saw the whole thing as a series of tests for leadership of the cult. They had already deemed him suitable owing to whatever he did in that other country.

    But you can also read as an allegory for PTSD or whatever. It doesn't have to be either/or.
  • richarddavies 10 Apr 2012 09:19:25 2,930 posts
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    I naturally assumed it was all a metaphor for Ice cream. The main guys choclate and his Irish mate is neapolitan. The cult is mint choc chip and the main fella wife is vanilla. It's all pretty obvious if you think about it.
  • chopsen 10 Apr 2012 09:54:46 16,290 posts
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    It's an analogy for putting up patterned wall paper. The pattern repeats itself throughout, but the edges are discordant, causing disorientation and confusion. Sometimes it is necessary to sacrifice something, such as particularly pleasing effect at the margin of the door frame, in order to honour a greater plan - i.e. how the wallpaper aligns across the whole of the room. Even the best of friendships are no guarantee of success, and the whole enterprise can cause arguments and fighting even among those who are most close. Also, naked people run at you and scream.
  • monkehhh 10 Apr 2012 10:51:31 3,525 posts
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    It was all a dream, obviously.
    Love this film.
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