RIP Margaret Thatcher Page 75

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  • mcmonkeyplc 18 Apr 2013 14:42:49 39,447 posts
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    Well the PR part is for the national party count.

    Come and get it cumslingers!

  • mcmonkeyplc 18 Apr 2013 14:43:28 39,447 posts
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    So you have one count for your local MP/party. Then another for national.

    Come and get it cumslingers!

  • thedaveeyres 18 Apr 2013 14:45:25 10,928 posts
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    I don't really give a toss about PR, I hoped in the last election that the LDs would get enough seats to force one of the big two into a minority government, so we'd have to have bi-partisan consensus and common sense in decision-making. A new politics that forced MPs to overcome cross-party bickering and actually make decision based on what they thought was right, rather than the party whip.

    Stupid, stupid, naive cunt that I am. Stupid.

    D****** ******r

    XBLA: Hamster Trippin
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  • LeoliansBro 18 Apr 2013 14:50:44 43,857 posts
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    No I don't understand. Either the national party count is made up of votes for the party, or the MPs of that flavour returned to Parliament? Or do you want two houses?

    LB, you really are a massive geek.

  • disusedgenius 18 Apr 2013 14:51:51 5,284 posts
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    Are you talking to me or McMonkey? Because we're both now talking across purposes. :)
  • RobTheBuilder 18 Apr 2013 14:52:13 6,521 posts
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    You say PR or AV means we don't get to choose who represents us, but given the system of safe seats we don't really get to do that anyway.

    A regional system of PR/AV would provide a fairer vote count along with practically the same choice we have now. If combined with the 're-vote on misconduct' ideas being put forward I see that as much better than the current system.
  • LeoliansBro 18 Apr 2013 14:53:35 43,857 posts
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    It's a valid point, but PR means you don't even know in advance who you're voting in.

    Portillo would never have been knocked out of Parliament under PR for example.

    LB, you really are a massive geek.

  • RedSparrows 18 Apr 2013 14:56:48 22,351 posts
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    And we'd never have had those thrilling train documentaries!

    Jammy bastard, travelling all over the place, with about the only qualification he has being he sounds clever. Where's a modern day PLF or Hemingway, eh?!
  • mcmonkeyplc 18 Apr 2013 15:10:33 39,447 posts
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    LeoliansBro wrote:
    No I don't understand. Either the national party count is made up of votes for the party, or the MPs of that flavour returned to Parliament? Or do you want two houses?
    The national party vote is made up of votes for the MP but the weighting of that vote depends on the population of the MP's district.


    For example the local Tory MP for Barnstable is re-elected. This counts for 1 PR point in the houses of commons.

    Putney replaces it's MP from a Tory to a Labour candiated. This counts for 4 PR points in the houses of commons.

    The problem with this is that all voting in the houses of commons then becomes PR.

    I think it's probably too complicated. Better to have two houses.

    Come and get it cumslingers!

  • LeoliansBro 18 Apr 2013 15:14:55 43,857 posts
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    OK, I don't understand.

    Say I vote for Labour at the next election.

    Under FPTP this contributes to a Labour MP being returned and there are 350 Labour MPs, 250 Tory MPs and 50 Lib Dems.

    Under PR this is a vote for Labour and there turn out to be 330 Labour MPs, 220 Tory MPs and 100 Lib Dems.

    Do you see how the two are incompatible? You can't have both. Is my MP one of the 20 to be culled? Does that mean I get a Tory MP or a Lib Dem looking after my local interests despite the fact that we all voted Labour?

    LB, you really are a massive geek.

  • TheSaint 18 Apr 2013 15:15:20 14,317 posts
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    I'm not sure Jeremy Vine could cope with a swingometer that complicated.
  • RedSparrows 18 Apr 2013 15:16:40 22,351 posts
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    Jeremy Vine can't cope with much.
  • mcmonkeyplc 18 Apr 2013 15:23:42 39,447 posts
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    LeoliansBro wrote:
    OK, I don't understand.

    Say I vote for Labour at the next election.

    Under FPTP this contributes to a Labour MP being returned and there are 350 Labour MPs, 250 Tory MPs and 50 Lib Dems.

    Under PR this is a vote for Labour and there turn out to be 330 Labour MPs, 220 Tory MPs and 100 Lib Dems.

    Do you see how the two are incompatible? You can't have both. Is my MP one of the 20 to be culled? Does that mean I get a Tory MP or a Lib Dem looking after my local interests despite the fact that we all voted Labour?
    If all the voting in the commons was done on a PR basis wouldn't it work?

    So the same MP's that get in FPTP sit in the commons but voting on laws is done on PR thus making the party with the most PR points the party in power.

    Come and get it cumslingers!

  • LeoliansBro 18 Apr 2013 15:29:16 43,857 posts
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    Does that mean some MPs have more voting weight than others? Not sure I like that.

    LB, you really are a massive geek.

  • mcmonkeyplc 18 Apr 2013 15:29:46 39,447 posts
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    Yes exactly.

    The problem with that is that no one will give a fuck what you think if you live in the middle of nowhere.

    I don't think I like that either. A two house solution is probably better.

    Edited by mcmonkeyplc at 15:30:29 18-04-2013

    Come and get it cumslingers!

  • LeoliansBro 18 Apr 2013 15:34:43 43,857 posts
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    Replace the House of Lords with a PR-derived assembly designed to vet Government decisions?

    I could get behind that, but I'm pretty sure that's not what most people mean when they say PR.

    Plus I think there's a lot of value in having an unelected body checking what those briefly in favour are wanting to sign into law. Just not the unelected body we have now...

    LB, you really are a massive geek.

  • mcmonkeyplc 18 Apr 2013 15:38:47 39,447 posts
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    Well I don't think it should be unelected completely. I believe the majority of the second house should be elected but for a longer duration, maybe 10 years instead of 5 years so they should theoretically more about the medium/long term than the house of commons.

    I like the idea of a house of regions and house of local governments as well.

    Come and get it cumslingers!

  • RobTheBuilder 18 Apr 2013 15:41:47 6,521 posts
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    I think the FPTP system has proved it's ineffectiveness enough over the last 40 years.

    If (similar to above) we have house 1 as represented by local PR elections, and house two represented by a separate PR election. House 2 (House of Gov) wouldn't have direct choice of candidate, but it's not like the second house has that now anyway. It would at least give it a balance.

    Edited by RobTheBuilder at 15:42:11 18-04-2013
  • LeoliansBro 18 Apr 2013 15:43:05 43,857 posts
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    I like the idea of an assembly of the best of us, elected for life but obliged to retire at (say) 70, who act as a balance against the risk of short termism and the whims of the elected body (who still have the power). Like the US judiciary but not just focussed on legal objections.

    Edited by LeoliansBro at 15:43:31 18-04-2013

    LB, you really are a massive geek.

  • Chopsen 18 Apr 2013 15:43:47 15,885 posts
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    You can prove, using science, that PR would sometimes represent people less well than FPTP, and sometimes neither do a particularly good job. It's always a matter of compromise. I know this because I read it in New Scientist and they don't lie.
  • mcmonkeyplc 18 Apr 2013 15:45:02 39,447 posts
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    @LeoliansBro What's to stop them from going mental and not allowing anything to pass?

    I'd like to give them an incentive to remain sane and in touch :)

    Edited by mcmonkeyplc at 15:46:09 18-04-2013

    Come and get it cumslingers!

  • Shikasama 18 Apr 2013 15:46:08 6,762 posts
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    It's all pretty irrelevant. Politics is about getting in power and staying power, not actually doing anything when you are there.
  • LeoliansBro 18 Apr 2013 15:49:18 43,857 posts
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    mcmonkeyplc wrote:
    @LeoliansBro What's to stop them from going mental and not allowing anything to pass?

    I'd like to give them an incentive to remain sane and in touch :)
    What's to stop the house of Lords going mental and not allowing anything to pass? What's to stop the ruling party going mental and refusing to rule? What's the stop me crapping myself in the middle of the office and parking a turd on my knob, then chasing the ladies around reception?

    LB, you really are a massive geek.

  • Retroid Moderator 18 Apr 2013 15:51:15 44,512 posts
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    I really liked the aspect of "I'd like my vote to goto this person / party, unless they don't get enough 1st choices in which case I
    d like my vote to go to this one instead".

    In my area, for example, I could've put LD (fat chance of that now or any time soon, but they'd never get close here anyway) as first choice, Lab as second, one of my cats as third, Emperor Napoleon as fourth...[...]... and Tory as fucking never.

    IMO it would've led to a lot more people putting their *actual* party of choice as 1st and their 'realistic' choice as second.
  • mcmonkeyplc 18 Apr 2013 15:51:33 39,447 posts
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    LeoliansBro wrote:
    mcmonkeyplc wrote:
    @LeoliansBro What's to stop them from going mental and not allowing anything to pass?

    I'd like to give them an incentive to remain sane and in touch :)
    What's to stop the house of Lords going mental and not allowing anything to pass? What's to stop the ruling party going mental and refusing to rule? What's the stop me crapping myself in the middle of the office and parking a turd on my knob, then chasing the ladies around reception?
    The fact that you don't have the job for life :)

    Come and get it cumslingers!

  • LeoliansBro 18 Apr 2013 15:52:23 43,857 posts
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    In the house of Lords? Yes you do.

    LB, you really are a massive geek.

  • Retroid Moderator 18 Apr 2013 15:52:26 44,512 posts
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    LeoliansBro wrote:
    What's the stop me crapping myself in the middle of the office and parking a turd on my knob, then chasing the ladies around reception?
    *Takes notes*
  • LeoliansBro 18 Apr 2013 15:53:12 43,857 posts
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    As an aside, I saw the Telegraph this mornign had Thatcher's funeral labled as a 'Souvenir Edition'.

    Hmmm.

    LB, you really are a massive geek.

  • Retroid Moderator 18 Apr 2013 15:53:49 44,512 posts
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    Partnered with Andrex?
  • mcmonkeyplc 18 Apr 2013 15:55:45 39,447 posts
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    LeoliansBro wrote:
    In the house of Lords? Yes you do.
    That's what I'd change. 10 year terms.

    Come and get it cumslingers!

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