Burglar killed in Manchester Page 3

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  • Youthist 23 Jun 2011 14:58:32 10,010 posts
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    mal wrote:
    http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2000/apr/19/rostaylor1?INTCMP=ILCNETTXT3487

    He got freed on appeal or something, IIRC. He definitely got let out after short jail sentence.

    Think of how stupid the average person is, and realise half of them are stupider than that

  • kalel 23 Jun 2011 15:02:09 86,420 posts
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    generica wrote:
    kalel wrote:
    Crime is definitely rooted in socioeconomic/culturual issues, but to suggest it's the fault of governments is ludicrously over-simplified at best.

    I'm pointing out the 'socioecenomic' relationship because I think a story like this is a distraction from it ("who is to blame, the burglar or the killers?" the answer is C). If governments aren't the cause of our material conditions then what or who is? It might be a simplification but I don't think it's wrong to suggest that governments create inequality in society.

    A. Personal responsibility and accountability > all.

    B. I accept that there are some countries where the socioeconomic issues are so dire that people do actually need to steal to live, this isn’t one of those countries. So see point A.

    C. There’s no magic way to fix everything, if there were we’d be living in utopia by now. There are counties with very low crime rates such as Japan, but they have other massive socioeconomic and cultural issues that are not unrelated. Everything you change has an effect on something else.
  • Ka-blamo 23 Jun 2011 15:03:45 7,295 posts
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    mal wrote:
    http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2000/apr/19/rostaylor1?INTCMP=ILCNETTXT3487

    I remember that, I know Newark well...full of Gypsy scummers, no loss.

    Its the fact that they were running away as he was shooting them which was a big issue.
  • Fake_Blood 23 Jun 2011 15:05:11 4,082 posts
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    See, if this was america at least the guys that ran away with their wounded 'mate' would have been shot aswell. Now they got away.
  • Fake_Blood 23 Jun 2011 15:05:15 4,082 posts
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    Post deleted
  • generica 23 Jun 2011 15:06:01 4,273 posts
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    I disagree with A and B. There are massive socioeconomic issues with this country.
  • kalel 23 Jun 2011 15:06:40 86,420 posts
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    generica wrote:
    I disagree with A and B. There are massive socioeconomic issues with this country.

    I didn't say there weren't.
  • AcidSnake 23 Jun 2011 15:08:15 7,222 posts
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    Fake_Blood wrote:
    See, if this was america at least the guys that ran away with their wounded 'mate' and possibly several bystanders would have been shot aswell. Now they got away.

    FTFY

    That said, in the US the robbers would probably have presented themselves with assault rifles...

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  • Deleted user 23 June 2011 15:11:53
    generica wrote:
    kalel wrote:
    Crime is definitely rooted in socioeconomic/culturual issues, but to suggest it's the fault of governments is ludicrously over-simplified at best.

    I'm pointing out the 'socioecenomic' relationship because I think a story like this is a distraction from it ("who is to blame, the burglar or the killers?" the answer is C). If governments aren't the cause of our material conditions then what or who is? It might be a simplification but I don't think it's wrong to suggest that governments create inequality in society.
    This was four balaclava wearing burglars. Your crackpot simplifications don't belong here.
  • kalel 23 Jun 2011 15:14:20 86,420 posts
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    I wonder if anyone would be questioning the role of the government if we were talking about “white collar crime” here.
  • Big-Swiss 23 Jun 2011 15:14:41 8,076 posts
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    Dirtbox wrote:
    You don't half come out with some shit, swiss.

    I just read this sentence about 40 times and I ain't sure I understand it.
  • Salaman 23 Jun 2011 15:15:18 18,879 posts
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    In the US, the burglar would probably end up stepping on one of the kid's rollerskates at the top of the steps, fall down, break his neck and end up in a wheelchair, then sue the owners of the house he was breaking into.
  • thedaveeyres 23 Jun 2011 15:15:47 10,701 posts
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    To be fair, theft of white collars has slackened off considerably since the 19th century.

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  • generica 23 Jun 2011 15:16:51 4,273 posts
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    kalel wrote:
    generica wrote:
    I disagree with A and B. There are massive socioeconomic issues with this country.

    I didn't say there weren't.

    Ok. I'm only trying to point out that we should be critical of governments for creating conditions of inequality rather than treating crime as as soley individual responsibility. I'm not sure how your A, B and C are objections to that (assuming with A that you acknowledge that material conditions play a part in determining whether someone commits crime). I assume you are being critical of something I've said, what?
  • Big-Swiss 23 Jun 2011 15:16:51 8,076 posts
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    Salaman wrote:
    In the US, the burglar would probably end up stepping on one of the kid's rollerskates at the top of the steps, fall down, break his neck and end up in a wheelchair, then sue the owners of the house he was breaking into.

    probably would get shot to peaces and then buried in the yard without anyone even realizing.........
  • Brodie 23 Jun 2011 15:17:19 187 posts
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    Four guys break in to my house.

    I'm in, and so is my petite wife.

    Should I let them take the stuff I've worked hard for, possibly attack us, make us feel like shit in our own house?

    Or should I stick/brain/smash the feckers with whatever is close to hand that'll do the job?

    Oh noes, somebody think of the socio-economic conditions. FUCK. THAT.
  • thedaveeyres 23 Jun 2011 15:20:32 10,701 posts
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    Brodie wrote:
    Four guys break in to my house.

    I'm in, and so is my petite wife.

    /stealth porn movie pitch

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  • Fab4 23 Jun 2011 15:20:54 5,980 posts
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    Brodie wrote:
    Four guys break in to my house.

    I'm in, and so is my petite wife.

    Should I let them take the stuff I've worked hard for, possibly attack us, make us feel like shit in our own house?

    Or should I stick/brain/smash the feckers with whatever is close to hand that'll do the job?

    Oh noes, somebody think of the socio-economic conditions. FUCK. THAT.

    The 2nd one!!
  • CosmicFuzz 23 Jun 2011 15:21:36 23,339 posts
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    There's a difference though between beating someone up who's broken into your house and stabbing them to death, skullfucking their corpse and hanging it on the roof of your house as a warning.

    It's probably already been said, but meh.

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  • Brodie 23 Jun 2011 15:21:59 187 posts
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    thedaveeyres wrote:
    Brodie wrote:
    Four guys break in to my house.

    I'm in, and so is my petite wife.

    /stealth porn movie pitch

    hahahaha, :D
  • sport 23 Jun 2011 15:22:13 12,583 posts
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    Brodie wrote:
    Four guys break in to my house.

    I'm in, and so is my petite wife.

    Should I let them take the stuff I've worked hard for, possibly attack us, make us feel like shit in our own house?

    Or should I stick/brain/smash the feckers with whatever is close to hand that'll do the job?

    Oh noes, somebody think of the socio-economic conditions. FUCK. THAT.

    Thought I was in the threesome thread for a second there, nice recovery.
  • kalel 23 Jun 2011 15:22:16 86,420 posts
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    generica wrote:
    kalel wrote:
    generica wrote:
    I disagree with A and B. There are massive socioeconomic issues with this country.

    I didn't say there weren't.

    Ok. I'm only trying to point out that we should be critical of governments for creating conditions of inequality rather than treating crime as as soley individual responsibility. I'm not sure how your A, B and C are objections to that (assuming with A that you acknowledge that material conditions play a part in determining whether someone commits crime). I assume you are being critical of something I've said, what?

    I just don’t think it’s really the right topic for that particular subject. If we were talking about rising crime rates, or particular rising rates of a particular sort of crime, then yes, you have to look at the bigger picture and talk about the role of government etc.

    However, we are talking about a very specific incident (which we don’t know a huge amount about btw), so for me to immediately leap to the conclusion that the real issue here is the government’s role is a bit…wrong. Again, would you have made that point if we were talking about some rich CEO stealing money from his own company?
  • thedaveeyres 23 Jun 2011 15:22:31 10,701 posts
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    CosmicFuzz wrote:
    There's a difference though between beating someone up who's broken into your house and stabbing them to death, skullfucking their corpse and hanging it on the roof of your house as a warning.

    It's probably already been said, but meh.

    One's an effective deterrent and the other isn't?

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  • mal 23 Jun 2011 15:24:26 22,341 posts
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    Youthist wrote:
    mal wrote:
    http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2000/apr/19/rostaylor1?INTCMP=ILCNETTXT3487

    He got freed on appeal or something, IIRC. He definitely got let out after short jail sentence.

    Yeah: http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2001/oct/30/tonymartin.ukcrime?INTCMP=ILCNETTXT3487

    That article suggests he only got out on grounds of being a bit of a nutcase. He was still convicted for using excessive force in the first place.

    Course, Martin shot the burglars, so it's not directly equivalent, but still I think it's somewhat relevant to the issue raised in the OP (if not the kalel vs generica argument).

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  • Chopsen 23 Jun 2011 15:25:03 15,727 posts
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    I think generica does have a point to an extent but to bring it up in the context of this news story is baffling.

    It's also a bit of an over oversimplification of the issues. So let's hear it, Urban Warrior, what would you do differently? :)
  • Deleted user 23 June 2011 15:25:16
    Fucking hell generica, I don't know if you had an interesting discussion you wanted to start somewhere and thought it would fit in here but you couldn't be further into the realms of nut if you tried. Again, this was four balaclava wearing burglars.
  • cianchristopher 23 Jun 2011 15:25:20 6,360 posts
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    Fab4 wrote:
    Brodie wrote:
    Four guys break in to my house.

    I'm in, and so is my petite wife.

    Should I let them take the stuff I've worked hard for, possibly attack us, make us feel like shit in our own house?

    Or should I stick/brain/smash the feckers with whatever is close to hand that'll do the job?

    Oh noes, somebody think of the socio-economic conditions. FUCK. THAT.

    The 2nd one!!

    Yeah, cos taking on four guys at the same time after they've caught you unawares is a splendid idea.
  • generica 23 Jun 2011 15:25:26 4,273 posts
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    mowgli wrote:
    Your crackpot simplifications don't belong here.

    What happened to this forum? I wanted to make a brief point that there is a relationship between crime and inequality and rather than blame the individuals involved we should also be critical of the government. Obviously it is very nuanced, obviously crime is not the sole responsibility of a government, but I think it is important to point out the role they play, particularly with a story like this which has the effect of deflecting attention away. If this is a discussion about who to blame then my contribution is to say the government plays a big part. Assume there is an asterisk attached which takes you to the point *obviously it is a bit more complicated than that. I mentioned not wanting to sound like a cliché in that first post, I knew it was a simplification, but I assumed people were clever enough to understand that I was trying to make a broad point. Instead I'm being made to feel silly. It's madness.
  • Faceman 23 Jun 2011 15:26:21 741 posts
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    generica wrote:
    mowgli wrote:
    Your crackpot simplifications don't belong here.

    What happened to this forum? I wanted to make a brief point that there is a relationship between crime and inequality and rather than blame the individuals involved we should also be critical of the government. Obviously it is very nuanced, obviously crime is not the sole responsibility of a government, but I think it is important to point out the role they play, particularly with a story like this which has the effect of deflecting attention away. If this is a discussion about who to blame then my contribution is to say the government plays a big part. Assume there is an asterisk attached which takes you to the point *obviously it is a bit more complicated than that. I mentioned not wanting to sound like a cliché in that first post, I knew it was a simplification, but I assumed people were clever enough to understand that I was trying to make a broad point. Instead I'm being made to feel silly. It's madness.

    So to summarise your point: the government should ban balaclavas?
  • ModishNouns 23 Jun 2011 15:26:28 4,654 posts
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    thedaveeyres wrote:
    CosmicFuzz wrote:
    There's a difference though between beating someone up who's broken into your house and stabbing them to death, skullfucking their corpse and hanging it on the roof of your house as a warning.

    It's probably already been said, but meh.

    One's an effective deterrent and the other isn't?

    One's certainly going to be a lot worse for property values.
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