Borderlands 2 Page 108

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  • ecureuil 10 Nov 2012 18:02:53 76,698 posts
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    I'll go in to more detail as to why so many people are disappointed with the loot system in this game. Partly it's because it fails in comparison to the first game, but there's more than that.

    Oranges in the first game were another tier of weapons, they slotted in to the scale system after purple.

    In BL2, they removed the orange weapons class and made them uber-rare uniques that are extremely difficult to obtain unless you get extremely lucky. It was far more rewarding and addictive, you wanted to play more because the chance of good loot was much higher, while at the same time it never felt like it was giving away all the good stuff too easily. That's balance.

    To look at it another way, a comparison of the rarity index in both games:

    BL1
    Common - White
    Uncommon - Green
    Rare - Blue
    Very Rare - Purple
    Legendary tier 1 - Yellow
    Legendary tier 2 - Orange
    Legendary tier 3 - Dark Orange
    Legendary+ - Pearlescent

    BL2
    Common - White
    Uncommon - Green
    Rare - Blue
    Very Rare - Purple
    Legendary+ - Orange

    This made the Borderlands 1 end game awesome. As you play there's a scale, you start out getting mostly whites and greens, as you progress you start to see more blues, then purples become more common, then by the end of PT2, oranges are a regular weapons class just like the other colours. It was a great and balanced system, they added in Pearlescent as a bonus tier for hardcore players, which we all appreciated. Now in BL2, that scale of progression disappears towards the end of the game. They replaced an entire weapons tier with a system that forces you to kill bosses hundreds of times each just to obtain a weapons class that became standard towards the end of the first game. That's why people are left feeling unsatisfied.

    Purple is basically the top "standard" tier of weapon in Borderlands 2, and purple weapons really are not that interesting by the end of the second playthrough. You're left with either grinding bosses for hours on end, or not getting these weapons at all, and it sucks. I cannot understand why anybody would defend this system, and I can only assume it's because they don't understand why the loot system was so good in the first game. There are more issues that involve parts variables that I can't even be bothered getting in to with this post.
  • themanfromdelmonte 10 Nov 2012 18:52:26 573 posts
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    As I said, you're comparing apples with onions. Pealescents didn't come in until Knoxx dlc. Knoxx wasn't the 1st dlc, can't remember if it was 2nd or 3rd, but Doctor Ned's was 1st and didn't introduce Pearlescents.

    You've also left out Pink - E-tech from the BL2 list.
  • ecureuil 10 Nov 2012 18:57:26 76,698 posts
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    themanfromdelmonte wrote:
    As I said, you're comparing apples with onions.
    No I'm not, I'm comparing the loot system in Borderlands to the loot system in Borderlands 2. I'm comparing green apples with red apples.

    My point is, they removed the 5th weapons tier and never replaced it. Legendaries in BL2 are equivalent to Pearlescents in BL1, when Pearlescents were just a bonus DLC class to begin with.

    E-tech is equivalent to eridian class in BL1. They don't count in this chart.
  • richardiox 10 Nov 2012 19:01:10 5,576 posts
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    The whole concept that people feel they "have to" or are "forced to" as Ecu puts it, grind away 100s of hours of their life to get a rare loot drop is so depressing. You're not forced to at all. This is a game with a massive amount of weapons.

    And when they've finally got that uber rare gun - its time for another 100 hours grinding for the next one, then the next.

    As I said in a previous post, if people said "as an obsessive compulsive gotta get em all gamer BL2 is a nightmare time sink for me" that's a fine statement to make.

    But to say the game design is broken because ultra rare loot is ultra rare is just wrong. And to use the fact that it's a different system to BL1 to prove your point is just BS. You could counter by saying BL1 was flawed as there was no genuinely rare items.
  • Zackv4861 10 Nov 2012 19:20:41 1,084 posts
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    Question? How do you use the drop boxes?
  • themanfromdelmonte 10 Nov 2012 19:31:25 573 posts
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    ecureuil wrote:
    themanfromdelmonte wrote:
    As I said, you're comparing apples with onions.
    No I'm not, I'm comparing the loot system in Borderlands to the loot system in Borderlands 2. I'm comparing green apples with red apples.

    My point is, they removed the 5th weapons tier and never replaced it. Legendaries in BL2 are equivalent to Pearlescents in BL1, when Pearlescents were just a bonus DLC class to begin with.

    E-tech is equivalent to eridian class in BL1. They don't count in this chart.
    By including Pearlescents, you're comparing the loot system in BL1+3rd dlc pack, with loot system in BL2, when only 1 dlc has been released.

    E-tech isn't equivalent to Eridian, Eridian was treated as a manufacturer, whereas E-tech has its own rarity colour and most of the manufacturers do E-tech guns.
  • erekose200 10 Nov 2012 19:34:27 81 posts
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    I really don't understand the 'need' people feel to aquire so many orange types. It certainly isn't because the game is too hard without them. having more then one on your set-up just breaks the game anyway.
  • Jazzassin 10 Nov 2012 19:34:48 75 posts
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    richardiox wrote:
    The whole concept that people feel they "have to" or are "forced to" as Ecu puts it, grind away 100s of hours of their life to get a rare loot drop is so depressing. You're not forced to at all. This is a game with a massive amount of weapons.

    And when they've finally got that uber rare gun - its time for another 100 hours grinding for the next one, then the next.

    As I said in a previous post, if people said "as an obsessive compulsive gotta get em all gamer BL2 is a nightmare time sink for me" that's a fine statement to make.

    But to say the game design is broken because ultra rare loot is ultra rare is just wrong. And to use the fact that it's a different system to BL1 to prove your point is just BS. You could counter by saying BL1 was flawed as there was no genuinely rare items.
    The developers said they want people to keep playing this game for years.

    It would make a whole lot more sense if the legendaries could drop anywhere at all, instead of copying the MMO system where the rare stuff only drops from the bosses. People have kept playing BL1 for years but I'm going to hazard a guess that many people aren't going to keep doing the "kill, save, reload, rinse and repeat" thing for years.

    (apparently you can find legendaries from chests and vendor machines too, but I assume that's like winning the lottery. I saw a test that suggested the chance of getting one from a one-armed bandit was a 1/2400 chance).
  • ecureuil 10 Nov 2012 19:48:19 76,698 posts
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    richardiox wrote:
    The whole concept that people feel they "have to" or are "forced to" as Ecu puts it, grind away 100s of hours of their life to get a rare loot drop is so depressing. You're not forced to at all. This is a game with a massive amount of weapons.

    And when they've finally got that uber rare gun - its time for another 100 hours grinding for the next one, then the next.

    As I said in a previous post, if people said "as an obsessive compulsive gotta get em all gamer BL2 is a nightmare time sink for me" that's a fine statement to make.

    But to say the game design is broken because ultra rare loot is ultra rare is just wrong. And to use the fact that it's a different system to BL1 to prove your point is just BS. You could counter by saying BL1 was flawed as there was no genuinely rare items.
    The loot system element is somewhat broken, yes. The fact that duping is significantly more rife in this game than the first one is actual proof that they got something wrong. I NEVER duped in the first game, because they gave out decent items at a reasonable rate and you could play any section of the game and stand a chance of finding good items. Yet I have dupes in BL2.

    The fact is, to get the best loot, you need to grind bosses. Your choice is:

    - Grind for hundreds, if not thousands of hours to get the best loot
    - Don't grind, get very little or none of the best loot

    Both of these situations are undesirable. From a game design point of view, I'm not sure why they would push players towards this. If you're a casual player then you probably don't care, you're probably happy with the weapons that are already in the game. But if you're a hardcore player where the game begins at level 50, well they have failed those players. There's nothing wrong with having items that are super rare, but locking the majority of the unique top end weapons behind bosses with horrible drop rates is bad design no matter which way you want to spin it. This isn't fun for anybody. It makes the rest of the game when you're fighting normal enemies kinda dull in that you have no chance of getting good loot. It damages replayability, which the first game had in spades. Absolutely no idea why people are defending this system, none at all. Unless you're a masochist, I dunno..

    And you missed my point by saying BL1 was flawed because there was no rare items. There WERE very rare items. The oranges had a scale:

    Yellow
    Orange
    Dark Orange

    Dark Orange is very rare. That's my whole point, BL1 had a scale where the items got gradually rarer. BL2 gets to the point of purple, then there's NOTHING until the very very rare legendaries. And again, E-Tech doesn't count because they're a specific type. They have their own colour class but they have a particular style to them. I really don't know why Gearbox changed a system that was almost perfect to begin with. I'll be vindicated because the system in BL3 will be more like it was in the first game than the second, Gearbox will admit they got it wrong. FWIW I do like the idea of bosses dropping rare loot, just don't make it the ONLY way.
  • ecureuil 10 Nov 2012 19:59:27 76,698 posts
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    I do still love the game by the way. It's just one bit of disappointment, the one thing I think the first game did better. I played BL1 up until about a year before the second game came out, and I was hoping to be playing BL2 up until BL3, but that's not going to happen. It was great while it lasted though.
  • Mayhem64 10 Nov 2012 20:40:22 667 posts
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    The big difference for me, is in the vending machines and chests. It's very rare to see something decent in a vender. The chests don't give the same sense of discovery as the 1st game. But I really can't see much of a difference in the enemy drop rate. I've not been farming though.
    This. This is what disappoints me the most about BL2 because in most respects, it's better than BL1. Just about everything decent I currently use was either gotten from Moxxi, the golden chest, or farmed from bosses. Barely anything was a quest rewards or out of vending machine. I've got a curious orange rifle from a machine in Oasis I'm using with my sniper currently, it sprays fire horizontally when you aim, making shooting groups easier, but that's about it.

    Lie with passion and be forever damned...

  • megalomaniacs4u 11 Nov 2012 12:07:32 62 posts
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    King_Edward wrote:
    I can't be bothered to finish games I don't like anymore. I do however have the ability to bitch relentlessly about shit I don't like.
    QFT - BL2 does this for me despite being a decent game at heart

    Come on gearbox patch up the loot!
  • andyc1980 11 Nov 2012 12:43:32 1,093 posts
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    Just wondering i anyone else who has been hit by the badass rank reset, has also lost all skins,heads,golden keys and weapons in claptraps stash
  • Kujata 11 Nov 2012 17:28:28 2,278 posts
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    andyc1980 wrote:
    Just wondering i anyone else who has been hit by the badass rank reset, has also lost all skins,heads,golden keys and weapons in claptraps stash
    That's what commonly happens. I lost everything you mention apart from the loot in Claptrap's stash, but only because it was empty at the time.

    According to a post over in the Badass Rank Reset Bug thread on the Gearbox forums they are close to a fix. It looks like it would cover the Badass Rank itself, and any tokens/skins/heads gained from your BA rank. But it WOULDN'T cover any other heads/skins lost or golden keys.
  • themanfromdelmonte 13 Nov 2012 22:55:44 573 posts
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    Patch out for PC, with Badass reset fix(ish) and The Bee nerf.
  • khaz 14 Nov 2012 03:56:37 2,778 posts
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    "Fixed bug causing Tediore reloads to get Amplify shield damage bonuses for each round remaining in the clip."

    Bee nerfed.

    Most high end bosses HP and shields increased.

    Mass rage incoming.


    Bosses are now mere giant bullet sponges that won't go down properly unless playing with 3 people minimum. Solo and two player play will require enormous amounts of patience and luck. At least the patch has lots of bug fixes.

    The thing that needed to be fixed - drop rates - hasn't been touched whatsoever.

    Its like Gearbox want to intentionally sabotage their own game.

    Edited by khaz at 03:59:07 14-11-2012
  • Folker 14 Nov 2012 06:24:20 5 posts
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    Got 10 free golden keys after the patch. I'm not complaining :)
  • ecureuil 14 Nov 2012 09:35:51 76,698 posts
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    Nerfed the power levelling exploit too. Guess I'm pretty much done with this game now.

    The fixes make sense I suppose, but they all make the game less fun and more tedious. Using the flesh stick exploit was cheap, but allowed you to get characters to high levels without playing through the story 10 times. You could get extra bank space by farming Terramorphous for eridium. They limited the inventory so mules are a must, now you have to grind through the story for the nth time just to get enough eridium to buy the inventory upgrades and bank slots. It wouldn't have hurt the game to keep these exploits in, just throw us a bone for christssake. It's bad enough you have to play a three hour long intro every time you start a new playthrough.

    Edited by ecureuil at 09:40:01 14-11-2012
  • kickerconspiracy 14 Nov 2012 10:40:17 495 posts
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    Annoyingly the difficultly slider mod no longer works for me post patch.

    Which smells.
  • Mola_Ram 14 Nov 2012 11:37:03 7,198 posts
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    khaz wrote:
    Bosses are now mere giant bullet sponges that won't go down properly unless playing with 3 people minimum.
    Err.. to be fair, that's what the raid bosses were designed for in the first place. The only people who could realistically solo them were specialised Axtons, or other classes that were cheesing with the Bee or Smasher super-weapon glitches.
  • ModishNouns 14 Nov 2012 12:00:07 4,655 posts
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    "Cheesing with the Bee" sounds awesome :D

    ..

    "Hey, whatcha doin?"
    "I'm, jus' cheesin' with the bee, man"
  • Mola_Ram 14 Nov 2012 12:02:19 7,198 posts
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    It sounds like some sort of euphemism. For what, I'm not sure.
  • crashVoodoo 14 Nov 2012 12:16:07 3,868 posts
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    I sense I wont be updating when it arrives on xbox as I play solo anyway

    a Nexus a day keeps the apple away

  • Deleted user 14 November 2012 12:22:27
    /uninstalls
  • Shikasama 14 Nov 2012 13:37:11 6,740 posts
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    ecureuil wrote:
    Nerfed the power levelling exploit too. Guess I'm pretty much done with this game now.

    The fixes make sense I suppose, but they all make the game less fun and more tedious. Using the flesh stick exploit was cheap, but allowed you to get characters to high levels without playing through the story 10 times. You could get extra bank space by farming Terramorphous for eridium. They limited the inventory so mules are a must, now you have to grind through the story for the nth time just to get enough eridium to buy the inventory upgrades and bank slots. It wouldn't have hurt the game to keep these exploits in, just throw us a bone for christssake. It's bad enough you have to play a three hour long intro every time you start a new playthrough.
    Yeah I think I'm the same. I can't bring myself to finish Scarlett on my TVHM because they seem to have decided "We should do all that stuff people hate from MMORPGS" for no particular reason.

    I don't really have any comlaints about the game as a packaged product though. Completed it with 3 characters with over 100 hours and enjoyed most of it (although TVHM became a real slog). If there was no 'end game' and just a credits roll after all of those playthroughs I'd have been entirely satisfied.

    I'll probably be back for the next big DLC.
  • Mola_Ram 14 Nov 2012 14:35:05 7,198 posts
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    I'm done for the moment, but will definitely be back when the next DLC hits. I haven't had nearly as many issues with the game that others have had - 1 and a half playthroughs, quite a bit of time, and I enjoyed pretty much every bit of it. And the DLC was ace.

    Although the "protect the beacon" mission can fuck right off. Thankfully there were only a handful of "protect this!" missions. Do not want.

    And yes, I would have liked more bank space. But then I'm not really a collector, so that annoyed me less than it has annoyed others.

    Great game, and really easy to set up in co-op as well. Twas money well spent.

    Edited by Mola_Ram at 14:39:05 14-11-2012
  • jambii267 14 Nov 2012 15:09:32 1,366 posts
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    Guess who's going to power level all their characters to Level 50 before the 360 patch hits?

    Seriously Gearbox?

    NNID: Jambii267 PSN: Dr-Jambii 3DS: 0216-0806-8561

  • TheMilkman 14 Nov 2012 15:10:44 198 posts
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    Golden Keys

    WinPC: CT5J3-BF5HZ-633JB-T33TJ-XSKZF
    PS3: WTK3B-WTZ9B-69BCJ-STKTT-BZCX5
    X360: WTK3B-WTZ5F-36FBR-KXJTT-BZC6J
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