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  • nickthegun 19 Aug 2013 14:27:33 59,937 posts
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    For that metaphor to work, wenger would have spent 300m on players who are brilliant at keepy uppies.

    ---------------------------------------------------------
    someone say something funny

  • roz123 19 Aug 2013 14:28:18 7,113 posts
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    mcmonkeyplc wrote:
    Also may I point out how retarded Chelsea's first bid for Rooney was?

    10m....
    I thought it was 20million, the 10m was part of that deal someone at Utd made up that included Mata or Luiz.

    20m is still low for someone of his quality but it was made clear at the end of last season that Utd want to get rid of him.
  • kalel 19 Aug 2013 14:30:32 87,687 posts
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    FutileResistor wrote:
    kalel wrote:
    FutileResistor wrote:
    As the guy who described Arsenal's 30m bid for Suarez a joke bid I'm finding the last page highly amusing.
    I'm starting to worry about you a bit. Do you really think these bids are even slightly comparable?
    Let's take SuperCoolEskimo's breakdown as 18m for Fellani and 10m for Baines.

    Liverpool paid 24m for Suarez. Everton payed 15m for Fellani. I asked why would Liverpool sell for just 6m more than they paid. Dougs is now asking the same thing for Fellani.

    Arsenal are a team which Liverpool have to beat to get into the top four. As I said it would seriously weaken Liverpool and simultaneously strengthen Arsenal chance for a champions league place. You have to pay massively over the odds to get a direct rival to sell to you. Everton are not challenging Man Utd for the title. Would you sell - leaving aside your traditional rivalry - Bale to Arsenal cheaply?

    Suarez has three years left on his contract, Liverpool don't have to sell. This is the same reason why Tottenham can play hardball over Bale. I have no idea how long Fellani and Baines have left on their contracts.

    Obviously Suarez comes with the risk that he'll do something to get a ban but given Arsenal were willing to subsequently up their bid to 40m, it's not enough of a factor to put them off.

    Yes the bids are absolutely comparable and both bids are jokes. If you believe the Utd bid is a joke but the Arsenal bid is not, you have to justify your reasoning rather than because Liverpool lol.
    It's not about what was paid for the player initially, it's about what the player is worth now. That's why 15m for Andy Carroll rather than 50m, which by your logic he should now be worth.

    But yes, I agree that selling to a rival carries a premium and Arsenal should probably expect to pay more than 30m for Suarez, but that doesn't make the bid derisory or a joke. It's a lot of money and generally the kind of money that players of that level cost. It's a pretty fair opening offer imo, especially when you consider Suarez is currently serving a lengthy ban and has made it clear he wants to leave the club.

    Comparing it to a 20m bid for not one, but TWO of the best players in the league - potentially individually the two best players in their respective positions in fact - is derisory and a joke. It's incomparable with the Suarez bid.
  • vijay_UK 19 Aug 2013 14:35:03 2,149 posts
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    nickthegun wrote:
    Syrette wrote:
    I'd thought Moyes wasn't the type to be so disrespectful to his old club.
    I would be surprised if he had anything to do with it beyond 'I want baines and fellaini'.
    I'd be surprised if he didn't know. He's not at Everton anymore so frankly he's not bothered whether they get the maximum for their players.

    It's more like, 'I want Baines and Fellaini, so how much are we offering?'.
  • Dougs 19 Aug 2013 14:36:21 67,728 posts
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    :D The 1 from the Suarez bid is for the trolley

    http://angryofislington.files.wordpress.com/2013/08/supermarket-sweep.png?w=584&h=438
  • mcmonkeyplc 19 Aug 2013 15:00:00 39,457 posts
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    roz123 wrote:
    mcmonkeyplc wrote:
    Also may I point out how retarded Chelsea's first bid for Rooney was?

    10m....
    I thought it was 20million, the 10m was part of that deal someone at Utd made up that included Mata or Luiz.

    20m is still low for someone of his quality but it was made clear at the end of last season that Utd want to get rid of him.
    I think you have some wires crossed. He wanted to leave, not us wanting to get rid of him.

    Come and get it cumslingers!

  • kalel 19 Aug 2013 15:12:59 87,687 posts
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    The Times is saying we've agreed a 20m fee for Coentrao
  • THFourteen 19 Aug 2013 15:14:24 33,428 posts
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    Muppets. You should have bid half that.
  • The-Bodybuilder 19 Aug 2013 15:14:36 14,199 posts
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    SuperCoolEskimo wrote:
    28m is a fair bid if you ask me. 18m for Fellaini, 10m for Baines, I wouldn't value either more than that.
    Haha, are you kidding me?
    Fellaini was bought for 15mil plus some payments on top (probably around a total of 17mil), has a lengthy contract and has been one of the league's best CMs the past few seasons helping to destroy teams like City, Chelsea and United and (to a lesser extent) demolish us, yet you value him LESS than what he was bought at?

    I'm not even gonna go into Baines. Unless he has a year in his contract, you're valuating the league's best LB for 10mil?

    As stated in the arsenal group, after all of wenger's talk it's gonna be interesting to see how much we end up playing for players and just what level they are.

    "We have scouted the world. We work very hard 24 hours a day for players. There isn't anyone. We are looking for super quality, who would you say is better than what we have that is available? We do not want to pay over the odds for players, we will pay what we feel is the right amount...there is no quality in the market."

    /Bids 10m for Cabaye
    /Rumours of putting a bid for 25mil for Michu.

    Some serious global scouring for "super quality at reasonable valuation" you've done there.
  • bitch_tits_zero_nine 19 Aug 2013 15:14:36 6,654 posts
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    sounds like a lot.
  • The-Bodybuilder 19 Aug 2013 15:15:31 14,199 posts
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    THFourteen wrote:
    Muppets. You should have bid half that.
    Plus a pound.

    Have to say, I really don't think he's what Spurs need right now, but hey ho, who am I to judge?
  • bitch_tits_zero_nine 19 Aug 2013 15:15:46 6,654 posts
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    i'd still give the nod to Ashley over Baines
  • robc84 19 Aug 2013 15:17:28 5,621 posts
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    kalel wrote:
    The Times is saying we've agreed a 20m fee for Coentrao
    Part of the Bale deal surely?
  • kalel 19 Aug 2013 15:17:56 87,687 posts
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    The-Bodybuilder wrote:
    THFourteen wrote:
    Muppets. You should have bid half that.
    Plus a pound.

    Have to say, I really don't think he's what Spurs need right now, but hey ho, who am I to judge?
    What do you think we need out of (genuine) interest?
  • kalel 19 Aug 2013 15:18:52 87,687 posts
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    robc84 wrote:
    kalel wrote:
    The Times is saying we've agreed a 20m fee for Coentrao
    Part of the Bale deal surely?
    I'm sure it's not totally unrelated to it, but how it is related to it I don't know.
  • robc84 19 Aug 2013 15:21:41 5,621 posts
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    I just can't see Real selling to us unless we are playing ball with Bale.

    Personally I think Bale will go for around the 80m mark.
  • bitch_tits_zero_nine 19 Aug 2013 15:22:56 6,654 posts
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    Spurs have reached the point where they can improve everywhere but for massively diminishing returns and at the risk of losing money and still not achieving in a sporting context.

    They seem kind of a blank slate.
  • thedaveeyres 19 Aug 2013 15:23:09 11,061 posts
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    Spurs need a couple of wingers, Coentrao sounds just the job.

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  • vijay_UK 19 Aug 2013 15:24:10 2,149 posts
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    robc84 wrote:
    I just can't see Real selling to us unless we are playing ball with Bale.

    Personally I think Bale will go for around the 80m mark.
    Still a crazy figure for me. Makes the Christiano Ronaldo move to Real Madrid look like a real bargain.
  • The-Bodybuilder 19 Aug 2013 15:24:50 14,199 posts
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    kalel wrote:
    The-Bodybuilder wrote:
    THFourteen wrote:
    Muppets. You should have bid half that.
    Plus a pound.

    Have to say, I really don't think he's what Spurs need right now, but hey ho, who am I to judge?
    What do you think we need out of (genuine) interest?
    Heh, I mean you need a LB, but I don't think it's him imo. Very attack-minded but constantly leaves his defensive duties to someone else.

    Basically, for 18mil, I think you can do better than him for fullbacks. Siquera imo would be a good upgrade that would be cheap.
  • vijay_UK 19 Aug 2013 15:27:12 2,149 posts
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    The-Bodybuilder wrote:
    kalel wrote:
    The-Bodybuilder wrote:
    THFourteen wrote:
    Muppets. You should have bid half that.
    Plus a pound.

    Have to say, I really don't think he's what Spurs need right now, but hey ho, who am I to judge?
    What do you think we need out of (genuine) interest?
    Heh, I mean you need a LB, but I don't think it's him imo. Very attack-minded but constantly leaves his defensive duties to someone else.

    Basically, for 18mil, I think you can do better than him for fullbacks. Siquera imo would be a good upgrade that would be cheap.
    Is Siquera any good? I think Liverpool were intested but decided to do an Arsenal, so had to go for Aly Cissokho instead.
  • robc84 19 Aug 2013 15:27:15 5,621 posts
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    80m is a crazy figure for any player really. But bear in mind this is the double player of the year last year, still only 23 (I think) so in theory has his best years ahead of him. He has a long term contract at his current club, who do not need to sell.

    Sorry, but if you want him, your gonna have to pay the big bucks.
  • vijay_UK 19 Aug 2013 15:31:37 2,149 posts
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    robc84 wrote:
    80m is a crazy figure for any player really. But bear in mind this is the double player of the year last year, still only 23 (I think) so in theory has his best years ahead of him. He has a long term contract at his current club, who do not need to sell.

    Sorry, but if you want him, your gonna have to pay the big bucks.
    He might be the double player of the year last year, but Ronaldo's 80m transfer fee got Real 201 goals in 200 apps.

    Not saying Bale will have to do that (!), but there or thereabouts will be needed to be regarded as a good signing. I'm looking at this from Real's angle.

    Edited by vijay_UK at 15:31:57 19-08-2013
  • FutileResistor 19 Aug 2013 15:32:26 1,230 posts
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    @kalel

    The Andy Carroll quip is not worthy of you. The logic in the cases of Suarez, Baines and Fellani is obviously that their subsequent performances have increased their value. A point so obvious that it was not even worthy of you to bring up, let alone attribute to me as arguing 'Well we paid 35m so now you must pay 50m, despite the fact that he's only worth 12m.'

    Let me clarify what I consider a joke bid as this may be where we disagree. It's a bid where, as a fan of the selling club, you are saying to yourself, 'Fuck off, we would never sell him to you for that price. Why are you even bothering to bid?'.

    Let's say the risk of a Suarez ban knocks 10m off his price. Leaving aside again your traditional rivalry and Real's bid which is just Madrid being Madrid.

    Would you consider a 40m bid for Bale from Arsenal a joke?

    The factors are the same, lengthy contract so no need to sell cheaply, one of the best players in the league, selling to a direct rival for a champions league place.

    Also it was 28m for Baines and Fellani, 20m really would be beyond a joke.

    Edited by FutileResistor at 15:36:25 19-08-2013
  • Dougs 19 Aug 2013 15:43:26 67,728 posts
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    thedaveeyres wrote:
    Spurs need a couple of wingers, Coentrao sounds just the job.
    Isn't he a defender (LB)? Or is that sarcasm again?!
  • thedaveeyres 19 Aug 2013 15:45:28 11,061 posts
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    Dougs wrote:
    thedaveeyres wrote:
    Spurs need a couple of wingers, Coentrao sounds just the job.
    Isn't he a defender (LB)? Or is that sarcasm again?!
    Nah, he's a wing-back, isn't he?

    Him, and Ince for 12m as cover/eventual replacement for Lennon, and they'd be sorted out wide I reckon.

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  • FutileResistor 19 Aug 2013 15:45:57 1,230 posts
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    80m was a ridiculous figure for Ronaldo at the time as well. It is what has happened subsequently that has made it not ridiculous. Ronaldo had also had one season where he scored a goal a game.

    Ronaldo and Messi really are outliers. In modern football no players have scored a goal a game in one of the top leagues, season after season. I think you have to go back to Pele to find someone who scored a goal a game throughout his career.
  • kalel 19 Aug 2013 15:49:12 87,687 posts
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    FutileResistor wrote:
    @kalel

    The Andy Carroll quip is not worthy of you. The logic in the cases of Suarez, Baines and Fellani is obviously that their subsequent performances have increased their value. A point so obvious that it was not even worthy of you to bring up, let alone attribute to me as arguing 'Well we paid 35m so now you must pay 50m, despite the fact that he's only worth 12m.'

    Let me clarify what I consider a joke bid as this may be where we disagree. It's a bid where as a fan of the selling club you are saying to yourself, 'Fuck off, we would never sell him to you for that price. Why are you even bothering to bid?'.

    Let's say the risk of a Suarez ban knocks 10m off his price. Leaving aside again your traditional rivalry and Real's bid which is just Madrid being Madrid.

    Would you consider a 40m bid for Bale from Arsenal a joke?

    The factors are the same, lengthy contract so no need to sell cheaply, one of the best players in the league, selling to a direct rival for a champions league place.

    Also it was 28m for Baines and Fellani, 20m really would be beyond a joke.

    So we're agreed that current value has nothing to do with previous value at least? The Carroll point was really just an illustration of that. What you paid for Suarez is irrelevant (other than perhaps to make the point that actually you paid quite a lot for him, which is why the gap between that fee and his current fee might not be all that much).

    Also, the Arsenal comparison is not quite fair. You're not dealing with Everton or United, and you're really don't have the same kind of rivalry with Arsenal that we do, nor are you honestly competing with them in the league like we are.

    But all that aside, had the Madrid thing not kicked off and Bale's valuation gone into the stratosphere, then I'd probably consider Bale to be worth between 50m and 60m, and thus a starting bid from a team like United at around 40m would have been pretty reasonable yeah.
  • Commander-Keen 19 Aug 2013 15:55:05 808 posts
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    robc84 wrote:
    I just can't see Real selling to us unless we are playing ball with Bale.
    BUT WE HAVE A SPECIAL RELATIONSHIP WITH THEM!!!!!

    Edited by Commander Keen at 15:55:15 19-08-2013
  • The-Bodybuilder 19 Aug 2013 15:55:36 14,199 posts
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    Ronaldo and Messi are the 2 best players in the planet and possibly the best ever.
    Bale for that much gives the impression he's in that bracket.

    He's phenomenal, but he's not in the planet. IMO, Van Persie is still better than him, and he's not in that realm of super top players.

    But whatevs.
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