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  • kalel 2 Apr 2013 09:38:58 87,708 posts
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    I can't be arsed to look it up again, but when I had this same discussion last week I pointed out that Harry has something like over four times as many points as Hughes did over the same period, and they're 10th in the table if you start it from when he took over. That has now probably changed based on two losses in a row, but still, he's doing fine.

    That's a very positive impact however you look at it. Taking a blatantly ignorant "Harry is shit and does nothing" stance is equally retarded to painting him as some sort of magician.
  • Deleted user 2 April 2013 09:46:26
    Without Redknapp they would have been officially relegated for a while by now.
  • nickthegun 2 Apr 2013 09:51:42 59,950 posts
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    Without Redknapp, they would have taken a few of our records off us by now.

    Cant fucking wait for Billy 'fucking' Davies to take forest up..

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  • MadCaddy13 2 Apr 2013 09:59:43 1,930 posts
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    I'm thinking QPR, Reading and Sunderland for the drop. Miglonet and remy to arsenal
  • THFourteen 2 Apr 2013 11:13:53 33,447 posts
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    MadCaddy13 wrote:
    I'm thinking QPR, Reading and Sunderland for the drop. Miglonet and remy to arsenal
    We've got flappyhandski back now.
  • Mr_Sleep 2 Apr 2013 11:26:51 17,075 posts
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    kalel wrote:
    Harry is not a magician, but he has the edge on your average bottom-end journeyman. A team like Villa or Newcastle could do a lot worse (and probably are).
    I'd be intrigued to see how he would do with our bunch of kids as opposed to a bunch of journeymen and bought-in talent. It's really not a fair comparison.

    You are a factory of sadness.

  • President_Weasel 2 Apr 2013 11:32:51 9,337 posts
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    Blakester wrote:
    kalel wrote:
    QPR would be sitting pretty if they'd have had Harry all season. Painting his inability to bring them back from having just 4 points as a "dismal failure" is ridiculous. He's done pretty well to even have them in contention, and I still think he might do it.

    Harry is not a magician, but he has the edge on your average bottom-end journeyman. A team like Villa or Newcastle could do a lot worse (and probably are).
    I don't buy that at all.

    Harry arrived at QPR saying his predecessor had spunked loads of the owners cash on mercenary crap (I'm paraphrasing obviously), then promptly went out and did exactly the same.

    He's clawed back a few points, but paid handsomely for them, something none of the other relegation rivals had the benefit of. They are seven points from safety, ten if Wigan win their game in hand. I fail to see how he's made any type of positive impact at all.
    Slightly better than the astoundingly poor Mark Hughes, not good enough to do the job he's been hired, well-paid, and entrusted with a large wad of the owners' cash to do.
  • kalel 2 Apr 2013 11:36:20 87,708 posts
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    His success at West Ham was with a largely young team, and also Spurs to a large extent. He's largely responsible for Bale going from a player we nearly sold to Forest to world class.

    Harry works with what you give him to work with. That's the whole point of him.
  • kalel 2 Apr 2013 11:41:15 87,708 posts
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    President_Weasel wrote:
    Slightly better than the astoundingly poor Mark Hughes, not good enough to do the job he's been hired, well-paid, and entrusted with a large wad of the owners' cash to do.
    Again, this is unfair. I don't mind having a pop at Harry for things that are fair game, but "slightly better" than Hughes is just clearly untrue.

    He's doing a perfectly acceptable job, he really is. Again, had he been there all season they'd be mid-table and nobody would be making comments like this. If he'd have had Hughes's transfer kitty form the summer in fact, they might be doing considerably better than mid-table in fact.
  • Blakester 2 Apr 2013 11:53:36 3,620 posts
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    kalel wrote:
    President_Weasel wrote:
    Slightly better than the astoundingly poor Mark Hughes, not good enough to do the job he's been hired, well-paid, and entrusted with a large wad of the owners' cash to do.
    He's doing a perfectly acceptable job, he really is.
    My eyes rolled so hard at this, they're still spinning.

    Easy for you to say when you support a team sitting comfortably in 3rd.

    I wonder how many QPR fans thought the same thing at half time last night...

    When you can't see the angles on the wall you're in trouble.

  • LeoliansBro 2 Apr 2013 11:55:44 44,254 posts
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    Harry is doing a perfectly acceptable job, problem is he was hired as a miracle worker.

    LB, you really are a massive geek.

  • kalel 2 Apr 2013 11:57:11 87,708 posts
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    I suspect QPR fans were hoping for a miracle, not expecting one.
  • roz123 2 Apr 2013 12:02:42 7,113 posts
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    Redknapp was a bit unlucky when Nelsen left, he was their player of the season up to that point.

    I'm tempted to put a bet on Di Canio to be the next Premier League manager sacked, hes already given Sunderland bad press and there is a good chance he will fall out with everyone or punch Titus Bramble.

    Edited by roz123 at 12:03:49 02-04-2013
  • nickthegun 2 Apr 2013 12:05:52 59,950 posts
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    He's only contracted to the end of the season so unless he goose steps out of his technical area, he is probably safe.

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  • kalel 2 Apr 2013 12:08:19 87,708 posts
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    nickthegun wrote:
    He's only contracted to the end of the season so unless he goose steps out of his technical area, he is probably safe.
    2.5 year deal.
  • nickthegun 2 Apr 2013 12:11:33 59,950 posts
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    Christ. The news report I heard on saturday night said it was until the end of the season. Thats quite the gamble, especially since the general consensus was that the championship might be a bridge too far for him.

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  • Shikasama 2 Apr 2013 12:12:03 6,843 posts
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    kalel wrote:
    He's largely responsible for Bale going from a player we nearly sold to Forest to world class.
    *twitch*
  • kalel 2 Apr 2013 12:20:48 87,708 posts
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    Which bit of that are you twitching at?

    There are btw plenty of Harry conversations where I sit on the other side of the fence, but this whole "he's just a very lucky chancer who makes every club he manages bankrupt" thing is such nonsense.
  • roz123 2 Apr 2013 12:24:50 7,113 posts
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    With Di Canio its not just that he is a risk as a manager its how quickly its all esculated, already Sunderland based war vets and miners are threatening boycotts.
  • kalel 2 Apr 2013 12:29:35 87,708 posts
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    I personally think his claim of being a fascist was erroneous anyway. My suspicion is that he claimed his salute was a philosophical/political thing to get away from the accusations of being a racist, but amusingly he's opened up a much bigger can of worms in doing that. He'd have been better off saying he just did it because he's a big Lazio fan, and it's a club thing. It's probably closer to the truth.
  • Shikasama 2 Apr 2013 12:37:47 6,843 posts
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    kalel wrote:
    Which bit of that are you twitching at?

    There are btw plenty of Harry conversations where I sit on the other side of the fence, but this whole "he's just a very lucky chancer who makes every club he manages bankrupt" thing is such nonsense.
    It's a perception that annoys me, although you probably know more about it than I do.

    The way I've always seen it (from the outside) is that Harry played him as a left back and genuinely lucked into him being an amazing left winger when he was forced to play there. Even when he was battering it down the left hand side Harry still wanted him to be a left back (albeit a world class one).

    When Harry actually tried to be clever and use him it almost always backfired. In Harry's 'Bale Free Role' he was absolutely sodding useless and had no idea what to do, in AVB he is absolutely lethal. To me that shows a significant discrepancy in coaching and tactical nous. Even when not in the free role, Harry's first idea was to play him out of position whenever his first 11 wasn't available.

    I'd give far more credit to the few months Bale has spent with AVB to the time he spent with Harry with his form this season. Obviously most of the credit has to go to Bale himself who bulked up and changed his own game.

    I'm fairly anti Harry anyway (mostly because I'm annoyed by him and his media buddies rather than the other stuff) so maybe the above is just epically biased.
  • Deckard1 2 Apr 2013 12:44:42 28,004 posts
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    Shikasama wrote:
    so maybe the above is just epically biased.
    Has anyone ever said anything in here that isn't? It's football innit.
  • kalel 2 Apr 2013 12:45:18 87,708 posts
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    The only real "luck" on Harry's part was BAE being injured and then going to the ACN, therefore forcing him to give him an extended run in the team.

    Other than that, it wasn't rocket science to put him on the wing but I'd hardly call it luck either. It was a fairly obvious thing to do, and yet neither Jol nor Ramos has done it, so some credit goes to Harry.

    And his confidence and status as a proper danger player happened under Harry. That has to be recognised. Yes, AVB has taken him to the next level again, but the groundwork was absolutely done by Harry.
  • kalel 2 Apr 2013 12:46:40 87,708 posts
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    There's a definite trend in here of "anything good that happens to a team Harry manages is luck, anything bad that happens to a team Harry manages (or even once managed) is 100% absolutely and unequivocally his fault".
  • LeoliansBro 2 Apr 2013 12:48:43 44,254 posts
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    kalel wrote:
    I suspect QPR fans were hoping for a miracle, not expecting one.
    Well, I don't think QPR hired him thinking that he'd weather the storm of the Championship with them if they went down.

    Why do you think they hired him?

    LB, you really are a massive geek.

  • kalel 2 Apr 2013 12:52:45 87,708 posts
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    LeoliansBro wrote:
    kalel wrote:
    I suspect QPR fans were hoping for a miracle, not expecting one.
    Well, I don't think QPR hired him thinking that he'd weather the storm of the Championship with them if they went down.

    Why do you think they hired him?
    Again, hoping for a miracle. He was their best chance of staying up. That doesn't make it something that was likely to happen though.
  • LeoliansBro 2 Apr 2013 12:53:50 44,254 posts
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    Ah, I misunderstood your point then.

    LB, you really are a massive geek.

  • caligari 2 Apr 2013 12:58:33 17,057 posts
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    Norwich just look so stale at the mo. It'll be great if we can crawl to safety for another season, but we're just not scoring goals, and I can't see Holt or Kei Kamara suddenly hitting form before the end of the season.

    I guess we have to rely on teams being worse than us - I think Villa will survive, so it'll be between us, Sunderland and Wigan (who are already on one of their 'invincible' runs).
  • Shikasama 2 Apr 2013 13:00:36 6,843 posts
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    But if it wasn't rocket science to stick him on the wing..why didn't he until his hand was forced? And when he was tearing teams apart from that position why was Harry still harping on about him being a left back?

    If it was a no brainer to stick him on the wing because he was so good there then how much credit can you give Harry for him doing well in that position? The fact that when harry intervened and could be seen to actively coach him (not that he wouldn't have been coached on the wing of course but that was his 'natural position') he managed to neutralise his best player.

    Don't want to drag this convo on too long because I don't think we are going to agree but I think you may be going too far the other way on this one.

    Edited by Shikasama at 13:01:04 02-04-2013
  • kalel 2 Apr 2013 13:24:29 87,708 posts
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    Shikasama wrote:
    But if it wasn't rocket science to stick him on the wing..why didn't he until his hand was forced? And when he was tearing teams apart from that position why was Harry still harping on about him being a left back?

    If it was a no brainer to stick him on the wing because he was so good there then how much credit can you give Harry for him doing well in that position? The fact that when harry intervened and could be seen to actively coach him (not that he wouldn't have been coached on the wing of course but that was his 'natural position') he managed to neutralise his best player.

    Don't want to drag this convo on too long because I don't think we are going to agree but I think you may be going too far the other way on this one.
    All I'm really saying is he played a pretty important role in Bale becoming the player he is.

    Again, considering he was on the verge of being sold to the Championship when Harry came in, and was one of the top European players by the time he left, I don't see how that can be such an overstatement.

    I don't think Harry's hand was forced in playing him on the wing, I don't really understand what you mean. When BAE came back he had the option of dropping Bale, or dropping Benny, or rotating, but moving Bale to the left was a choice. Yes, perhaps a no-brainer to an extent, but certainly not forced. And again, no-brainer or not, he did actually do it unlike the two previous managers. Not sure what you're on about with him "harping on about being a left back", I have no memory of this.

    As for the Bale not working in the middle under Harry thing, he certainly wasn't neutralised, he just wasn't as adapt at it yet. We're reaping the rewards of that time now.

    Basically the picture you're painting is one of Harry somehow stumbling upon Bale being good and still doing everything in his power to halt his progress, until AVB came along to result realise his potential. This is ludicrously unfair and revisionist. Harry was the one to finally unlock Bale's potential, and AVB has benefitted from this and taken him on even further.
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