What religion are you? Page 17

  • Page

    of 18 First / Last

  • elstoof 13 Jan 2013 11:15:11 8,312 posts
    Seen 23 minutes ago
    Registered 9 years ago
    kalel wrote:
    elstoof wrote:
    kalel wrote:
    This is a strawman. No war has ever been fought "purely" over one thing. So what? Are we saying that faith isn't a major factor in lots of wars? Because it is.
    The point is Rob the builder claims atheism is good and religion is bad because religion apparently causes war. It's a factor, certainly, but not the defining reason for the millions of deaths he points out.
    The reason why most are prepared to die in a war is some sort of ideology, often a religious one. I think it's fair to cite it as the defining reason for millions of deaths, if not the cause of the war itself.

    Take the current situation with Al Queada. At the heart it's about land and resources, but it's religious fundamentalism that actually drives it.
    I disagree, I don't see how twisting a persons faith to serve your own goals bears any similarity to the message the faith intends. There's a point where it stops being one thing and becomes another entirely, no matter what it's dressed up as.
  • Deleted user 13 January 2013 11:19:29
    I think the point is that religion can give you an extremely motivating reason not to fear death, or even embrace it, and that is unique. This is why religion can play such a key role in war.
  • bladdard 13 Jan 2013 11:25:38 1,021 posts
    Seen 6 days ago
    Registered 5 years ago
    bitch_tits_zero_nine wrote:
    Religions are just football teams imo.
    Spot on - humans are tribal, across towns and villages, across sexes, across social classes in the school playground, sports teams, race, creed, colour, country of birth and of course religion.
  • Deleted user 13 January 2013 11:29:18
    Deep down football fans know that their allegiance is irrational. Religious people do not. This is the key difference.
  • elstoof 13 Jan 2013 11:34:09 8,312 posts
    Seen 23 minutes ago
    Registered 9 years ago
    Fear of losing what you have and your way of life being affected is a far more powerful motivational tool than some sort of kamikaze manipulation of a peoples belief set.
  • Deleted user 13 January 2013 11:34:47
    hmm.
  • Deleted user 13 January 2013 11:39:12
    Not sure about this 'manipulation' business either. No such thing as a pure version of a faith. What makes believing one version of religion ok, but another 'manipulation'? What's the difference between a faith and a cult?

    It's all the same. It's brainwashing.

    And I'm using the word "often" instead of "always" for good reason. Yes, other factors are important and religion plays a smaller role in some conflicts. Nevertheless, it is in many cases the oxygen that feeds the fire of war.
  • bladdard 13 Jan 2013 11:43:32 1,021 posts
    Seen 6 days ago
    Registered 5 years ago
    elstoof wrote:
    Fear of losing what you have and your way of life being affected is a far more powerful motivational tool than some sort of kamikaze manipulation of a peoples belief set.
    Your family, kin and ilk are more likely to share your genes and in greater numbers and by destroying the competition you can maximise your available resources and protect the continuation of your common gene pool. Nothing to do with religion or power IMHO, human tribal conflicts are an attempt to protect what i believe is the meaning of life - the survival of your genetic code.

    Edited by bladdard at 11:45:51 13-01-2013
  • Maturin 13 Jan 2013 11:46:53 3,231 posts
    Seen 11 minutes ago
    Registered 5 years ago
    (this isn't aimed at whichever posted posted before this post, it's a general point) :)

    The history of religion is the history of the human race. It's only in the last couple of centuries that people are stepping outside of that - but still live within cultures framed by their religious history. The rituals, beliefs, values, art, culture and lifestyles of peoples for thousands of years have been tied up with religion. This is not mere frippery to be casually thrown aside because you are way too "clever" and hip to believe in God.

    To dismiss the whole of that history as "it's just a load if idiots believing rubbish" is ironically a pretty definitive anti-intellectual viewpoint. Religion and faith are far too complex an issue to dismiss so simply. You may hate religion, you may hate religious people, but to make such simple statements beggars believe.

    I'm reminded of my A Level English Lit teacher a couple of decades ago. He was a staunch atheist but he bemoaned the "dismiss all religion" nature of the modern secular society. His job was made so much harder because people no longer studied the bible, whether in a religious context or not, they simply dismissed it as unimportant. Yet they would then struggle to understand and study some of the most important works of English literature. They were throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

    Religion is in your culture, in your history, it is part of who you are and why you live where you do today. You may not believe its teachings. But please don't simply cast such culture, art, thinking and history aside merely because it doesn't fit with your gen-x arch online persona.

    History is full of deeply religious important giants of philosophy, science and culture. Their thoughts and writings have and will last millennia. Those of us playing "no you're wrong, no you're wrong, fucking idiot" on the net won't. So please, whatever side you're on in this argument - do try to brain up a bit and give the sub-Slayer lyrics view of religion a break. :)

    Edited by Maturin at 11:47:50 13-01-2013
  • Deleted user 13 January 2013 11:47:27
    Yeah, it always struck me as ironic that the core of pretty much all of our value systems is this idea of the family, and protecting the people closest to us, which is the other side of the coin in a way.

    Dunno.
  • Mr_Sleep 13 Jan 2013 11:48:48 17,380 posts
    Seen 9 hours ago
    Registered 13 years ago
    elstoof wrote:
    I disagree, I don't see how twisting a persons faith to serve your own goals bears any similarity to the message the faith intends. There's a point where it stops being one thing and becomes another entirely, no matter what it's dressed up as.
    The problem is that the message that is intended by many faiths is patently unclear because so much of it is a mess. The message of many faiths is about as clear as mud, the devil is in the detail and it takes a blind faith to accept the key principles of western religions. Due to this it is perfectly feasible to distort them to whatever end goal is determined by who is in charge.

    I guess a lot of this trouble comes from basing a belief on an ancient text that has to be translated and can be edited as time goes on. The Bible is the word of God, yet it can be edited, changed and moved around as required, apparently.

    You are a factory of sadness.

  • Mr_Sleep 13 Jan 2013 11:50:08 17,380 posts
    Seen 9 hours ago
    Registered 13 years ago
    bladdard wrote:
    Your family, kin and ilk are more likely to share your genes and in greater numbers and by destroying the competition you can maximise your available resources and protect the continuation of your common gene pool. Nothing to do with religion or power IMHO, human tribal conflicts are an attempt to protect what i believe is the meaning of life - the survival of your genetic code.
    Which is a real shame as mixing the gene pool is the best method of improving humanity.

    You are a factory of sadness.

  • Maturin 13 Jan 2013 11:53:10 3,231 posts
    Seen 11 minutes ago
    Registered 5 years ago
    Mr_Sleep wrote:
    I guess a lot of this trouble comes from basing a belief on an ancient text that has to be translated and can be edited as time goes on. The Bible is the word of God, yet it can be edited, changed and moved around as required, apparently.
    Rarely is it changed. The history of biblical scholarship for example has resulted in better and better translations of the original (as much as they can be) texts. And archaeology has lent them a better understanding of context.

    I expect this is the same with other holy writings.

    Of course people change, their views and interpretations changed, but today the translation of the bible you can buy in WH Smiths is likely closer to the meaning of the original writers than it ever was in any other period of history.
  • bladdard 13 Jan 2013 11:55:52 1,021 posts
    Seen 6 days ago
    Registered 5 years ago
    Mr_Sleep wrote:
    bladdard wrote:
    Your family, kin and ilk are more likely to share your genes and in greater numbers and by destroying the competition you can maximise your available resources and protect the continuation of your common gene pool. Nothing to do with religion or power IMHO, human tribal conflicts are an attempt to protect what i believe is the meaning of life - the survival of your genetic code.
    Which is a real shame as mixing the gene pool is the best method of improving humanity.
    Very true and it does contradict the tribal theory but this theory is played out in many other species such as apes, chimps even birds who would also strengthen their gene pools through diversified breeding.
  • Mr_Sleep 13 Jan 2013 11:57:14 17,380 posts
    Seen 9 hours ago
    Registered 13 years ago
    Maturin wrote:
    Rarely is it changed. The history of biblical scholarship for example has resulted in better and better translations of the original (as much as they can be) texts. And archaeology has lent them a better understanding of context.
    The problem is that if something is stated as absolute and then isn't it creates something of a contradiction. That's the point I am making. It's like editing the ending of The Usual Suspects so that they catch Keyser Soze in his lie.


    Of course people change, their views and interpretations changed, but today the translation of the bible you can buy in WH Smiths is likely closer to the meaning of the original writers than it ever was in any other period of history.
    I'm not sure how you can possibly know that.

    Edited by Mr_Sleep at 11:57:34 13-01-2013

    You are a factory of sadness.

  • warlockuk 13 Jan 2013 12:00:00 19,223 posts
    Seen 2 days ago
    Registered 10 years ago
    There seems to be this view of "sides" at the moment. A common complaint recently is that the agnostic atheist (for want of a better term) side is becoming more vocal - which leads to more claims of "oh noes, they represses our rights to pray precious".

    The problem really is exacerbated by places like the US where religion is rammed everywhere. You've got people believing in their invisible friends making big decisions about science that affects everyone - their God says no, so they're pulling funding. We've already lost several centuries worth of potential advances due to being held back by religion (though I would argue some of the slow going is also due to having to maintain a human set of morals - some advances were made once they got their hands on all the tests performed on human subjects by the Nazis.)

    Now you've got religious groups with power and people making decisions on what can and cannot be taught - they treat everything like their faith - they believe it or not depending on their gut as opposed to the facts. The neo-atheism movement that seems to be creeping up is trying to stem this. Silly Americans.

    It'd be so much better with more of a tea and crumpets view of religion rather than the fire and brimstone extremes - a more relaxed view makes it much easier to reconcile fact and feelings. If you've got a hardline fundamentalist view it makes it harder to reconcile that with reality without sounding like a total mentalist (6,000 years lol).

    If you're going to believe in an invisible group o'people that's fine and dandy, but the idea that you instantly need respect for believing in some ineffable celestial teapot who does very little but contradict everything that we discover is bewildering. Fantasy football leagues shouldn't get tax exempt status and shouldn't be above the law.

    Following someone with a penchant for mass genocide is a bit questionable though - have you considered Thor? According to his literature he hasn't exterminated the entirety of creation except for an 800 year old man, his immediate family and a quantum-entangled menagerie. Virucocha and Quetzlcoatl might be knocking about somewhere too, not drowning people.

    Ramble ramble ramble. I guess what I'm saying is that it doesn't matter what religion someone is, as long as they can accept that people may think they're a bit stupid. Like if you replace "God" with the word "Faries". Believing in something that probably isn't true will possibly make your life a bit more bearable - like those suckers who believe in homeopathy - but it doesn't mean you get the right to be taken seriously. Same with homeopaths.

    This why I stay out of these threads these days ^_^

    I'm a grumpy bastard.

  • Maturin 13 Jan 2013 12:03:21 3,231 posts
    Seen 11 minutes ago
    Registered 5 years ago
    Mr_Sleep wrote:
    I'm not sure how you can possibly know that.
    I have faith in science and secular scholarship. :)
  • Mr_Sleep 13 Jan 2013 12:09:52 17,380 posts
    Seen 9 hours ago
    Registered 13 years ago
    bladdard wrote:
    Mr_Sleep wrote:
    bladdard wrote:
    Your family, kin and ilk are more likely to share your genes and in greater numbers and by destroying the competition you can maximise your available resources and protect the continuation of your common gene pool. Nothing to do with religion or power IMHO, human tribal conflicts are an attempt to protect what i believe is the meaning of life - the survival of your genetic code.
    Which is a real shame as mixing the gene pool is the best method of improving humanity.
    Very true and it does contradict the tribal theory but this theory is played out in many other species such as apes, chimps even birds who would also strengthen their gene pools through diversified breeding.
    Yeah. Just because something is beneficial it doesn't mean we, or any other species, will necessarily do it. I know exercise is a very good idea for me but, well, meh.

    You are a factory of sadness.

  • bladdard 13 Jan 2013 12:53:45 1,021 posts
    Seen 6 days ago
    Registered 5 years ago
    Mr_Sleep wrote:
    bladdard wrote:
    Mr_Sleep wrote:
    bladdard wrote:
    Your family, kin and ilk are more likely to share your genes and in greater numbers and by destroying the competition you can maximise your available resources and protect the continuation of your common gene pool. Nothing to do with religion or power IMHO, human tribal conflicts are an attempt to protect what i believe is the meaning of life - the survival of your genetic code.
    Which is a real shame as mixing the gene pool is the best method of improving humanity.
    Very true and it does contradict the tribal theory but this theory is played out in many other species such as apes, chimps even birds who would also strengthen their gene pools through diversified breeding.
    Yeah. Just because something is beneficial it doesn't mean we, or any other species, will necessarily do it. I know exercise is a very good idea for me but, well, meh.
    Lol exactly. :)
  • Maturin 13 Jan 2013 12:57:03 3,231 posts
    Seen 11 minutes ago
    Registered 5 years ago
    In many cases that diversification of the gene pool in nature is only a slight mingling. So a few new members are brought into the pride/flock etc. but the group still remains largely original. And those that join the group take on its identity too.
  • NewbieZilla 13 Jan 2013 13:36:22 239 posts
    Seen 16 hours ago
    Registered 8 years ago
    Rusty_M wrote:
    Maybe it's something as simple as "people want other people to think like them"

    I know that's a hell of a generalisation and I apologise. Perhaps swaying others to their point of view gives them a sense of validation. Perhaps it's the old they're only so vociferous because they lack true conviction.

    I really don't know.

    edit : Mr_Sleep
    I'm sure there will be someone who'll believe something I'll mention here, but I don't see it as overly different to ghosts, reincarnation, 9/11 truthers, Obama birthers, geocentrists, flat earthers, and other examples. I wonder if those people who are dismissive of 'opinionated atheists' engage such people in conversation with the intent of showing flaws in reasoning. If so, elucidate a difference.
    elstoof wrote:
    King_Edward wrote:

    ...The Crusades.
    Territory. Christians wanted access to holy land. Next.
    The thesis of religion being the cause of wars is undisputed by this. If there wasn't religion, then it wouldn't have happened. No religion, no holy land.
    kalel wrote:
    I think the point is that religion can give you an extremely motivating reason not to fear death, or even embrace it, and that is unique. This is why religion can play such a key role in war.
    Yes. It may even go further than this, when what is seen as the good is to go to war for their god, and the bad is to not do so, and the reward/punishment that may follow in their belief system from such outcomes.

    Oh, and related to the Christian persecution complex: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iLaazXqrGls
  • RyanDS 13 Jan 2013 13:42:21 9,842 posts
    Seen 10 hours ago
    Registered 6 years ago
    elstoof wrote:
    King_Edward wrote:

    ...The Crusades.
    Territory. Christians wanted access to holy land. Next.
    Hell, the fourth crusade (it was the fourth wasn't it?) the crusade got bored on the way to Jerusalem and decided to sack christian Constantinople instead.
  • Khanivor 13 Jan 2013 14:08:40 41,261 posts
    Seen 8 hours ago
    Registered 13 years ago
    elstoof wrote:
    King_Edward wrote:

    ...The Crusades.
    Territory. Christians wanted access to holy land. Next.
    Beaten to it but the War on Terror was caused by religion.

    There are more examples then can be listed. FFS there's been conflict going on in Burma that is being fought by fucking Budhists.
  • RyanDS 13 Jan 2013 14:16:04 9,842 posts
    Seen 10 hours ago
    Registered 6 years ago
    Khanivor wrote:
    elstoof wrote:
    King_Edward wrote:

    ...The Crusades.
    Territory. Christians wanted access to holy land. Next.
    Beaten to it but the War on Terror was caused by religion.

    There are more examples then can be listed. FFS there's been conflict going on in Burma that is being fought by fucking Budhists.
    How?

    I'd say it is the perfect example of a war that dates back to issues caused by land and economic rights.
  • Mola_Ram 13 Jan 2013 14:17:56 8,275 posts
    Seen 3 minutes ago
    Registered 2 years ago
    The "war on terror" was a bullshit phrase to use, and doesn't count as a war in my books. But yes, it was a series of operations against groups that, yes, were motivated by religious loonery.

    Not sure if Iraq and Afghanistan would fit into that, though.
  • Khanivor 13 Jan 2013 14:18:52 41,261 posts
    Seen 8 hours ago
    Registered 13 years ago
    Men flew planes into buildings because their religion had been insulted. Ta-da!
  • Deleted user 13 January 2013 14:19:13
    karmic lasers
  • Khanivor 13 Jan 2013 14:20:40 41,261 posts
    Seen 8 hours ago
    Registered 13 years ago
    Excluding Iraq tens of thousands have died. Good enough for me. And it shows you don't have to go back into history for examples as its still going on today.
  • RyanDS 13 Jan 2013 14:23:16 9,842 posts
    Seen 10 hours ago
    Registered 6 years ago
    Khanivor wrote:
    Men flew planes into buildings because their religion had been insulted. Ta-da!
    Well, the oppression of the muslim world (use that as a race descriptor for the purposes of this rather than religion affiliation) pretty much led to that. It's more a reaction to the post 1945 middle east creation of Israel and the US (and the rest of the West) meddling in middle eastern affairs than "religion was insulted."

    Without those factors the desperation and anger that lead to 11/9 would not have resulted in the same actions.
  • RobTheBuilder 13 Jan 2013 14:25:39 6,521 posts
    Seen 1 year ago
    Registered 10 years ago
    @kalel Exactly
  • Page

    of 18 First / Last

Log in or register to reply