What's America's problem? Page 3

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  • Khanivor 24 Jul 2009 00:17:32 41,063 posts
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    Something like 70-80& of bankruptcies in the US are brought about by medical expenses.

    Oh, and a huge chunk of those are for people with medical insurance, BGiE. Just because you have insurance doesn't mean you are covered.

    @ Lukus - well getting bum-raped for money when you die happens everywhere in the developed world, afaik.
  • Latin 24 Jul 2009 00:18:38 3,814 posts
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    True, of course the insurance companies will look for any fucking way to not pay.
  • FWB 24 Jul 2009 00:18:45 45,107 posts
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    Had to use the Canadian NHS once while I was living there and it was swift and courteous.

    The number of medical ads in N.America is astonishing. You'd think you'd best never leave the house the amount of dangers they throw at you.
  • terminalterror 24 Jul 2009 00:19:31 18,937 posts
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    If the US manage to fuck up their current (massively watered down) healthcare bill, I'd love it if we could get the EU (maybe Canada too) to engage in a massive pissing contest by building a (free) hospital in the US as part of our overseas aid program.
  • FWB 24 Jul 2009 00:20:30 45,107 posts
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    Arhh if I was PM I'd be soooo tempted to do that. :)
  • Xerx3s 24 Jul 2009 00:21:33 23,944 posts
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    Bill Gates is Evil wrote:
    The issue at the core of this for those on the right is liberty.

    Yeah because having a good health system is limiting those liberties like they have over here. Oh wait, no, I'm still a free man.
  • DaisyD 24 Jul 2009 00:21:44 11,826 posts
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    CrispyXUK wrote:
    DaisyD wrote:
    CrispyXUK wrote:
    What!? You have to pay to give birth?

    $7,500 apparently. That's including prenatal care for an uncomplicated, natural birth. Depending on insurance, you may pay only a percentage of that. (The girl in the link paid 20%)
    That's fucking mental.

    I'm reading that forum some more - one woman says her 1st child cost $50k and the 2nd $30k, but the insurance covered most of it!
  • warlockuk 24 Jul 2009 00:22:34 19,209 posts
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    Khanivor wrote:
    Apparently there are a huge swathe of retards who believe having an insurance bean-counter between them and their doctor is preferable to having a government bureaucrat between doctors and their mansions and sports cars.
    I read that as sports bras.

    BGIE - you're wrong. You don't know any better, but you're wrong. Institutionally a cunt, I dunno, but wrong.

    I'm a grumpy bastard.

  • Latin 24 Jul 2009 00:23:21 3,814 posts
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    Xerx3s wrote:
    Bill Gates is Evil wrote:
    The issue at the core of this for those on the right is liberty.

    Yeah because having a good health system is limiting those liberties like they have over here. Oh wait, no, I'm still a free man.

    Your NI contibution has imprisoned you...
  • Psychotext 24 Jul 2009 00:24:33 54,763 posts
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    "What's America's problem?"
    Probably that it's full of Americans.
  • FWB 24 Jul 2009 00:25:28 45,107 posts
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    DaisyD wrote:
    CrispyXUK wrote:
    DaisyD wrote:
    CrispyXUK wrote:
    What!? You have to pay to give birth?

    $7,500 apparently. That's including prenatal care for an uncomplicated, natural birth. Depending on insurance, you may pay only a percentage of that. (The girl in the link paid 20%)
    That's fucking mental.

    I'm reading that forum some more - one woman says her 1st child cost $50k and the 2nd $30k, but the insurance covered most of it!

    It all depends on your insurance. My first baby only cost me $200 total!

    There's something really surreal reading that.
  • Latin 24 Jul 2009 00:26:53 3,814 posts
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    Could have got one cheaper in China...
  • Kami 24 Jul 2009 00:29:30 2,460 posts
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    I think it's just simple Capitalistic greed. People like to be seen giving to charity, they like to be seen to be helping the significantly well off, but they don't want to pay to set up a healthcare system that everyone can use, free at the point of use, and where everyone benefits from it.

    Yeah, I don't really get why America has an issue with this either, let's face it, they can't really do any worse than the NHS surely?

    Master of Tekisuto No Kabe. *bows*
    And you're reading this why?!

  • Xerx3s 24 Jul 2009 00:29:33 23,944 posts
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    Bill Gates is Evil wrote:
    CrispyXUK wrote:
    Bill Gates is Evil wrote:
    The issue at the core of this for those on the right is liberty.
    Say that in English please.

    American's are granted the right to pursue happiness, not to have it. Making health care a "right" is retarded.

    Having people who can't afford health care is retarded.

    If we really want to help the actually poor, lets get to work on Africa where people really are poor.

    If you can't even help your own people, how can you help someone else? You're still living with your head in the sand denying the problems at hand. I'd say "look where it got you so far" but you are probably unwilling to see it.

    There is inequality in health care, sure, but the medical system here produces an absolute vast majority of medical advances. I used to live near Texas Medical Center in houston, and Europeans, Canadians, the Chinese would all fly there for treatment.

    And there are Europeans and Canadians going to Cuba to receive treatment, so what. Europeans are being shipped all over the place. You know why? Because our medical care system pays for getting treatment asap.

    I'm not saying that we have a startrek perfect system. Fuck me, far from it. It's like democracy though. Even though it's shite, it's the best there is.
  • Deleted user 24 July 2009 00:34:25
    Khanivor wrote:
    Just because you have insurance doesn't mean you are covered.
    preexistingconditionlol

    Check out The Rainmaker. It's a work of fiction, granted, but it sketches some not implausible scenarios that explain why America's health system SUCKS.
  • DaisyD 24 Jul 2009 00:34:26 11,826 posts
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    FWB wrote:
    DaisyD wrote:
    CrispyXUK wrote:
    DaisyD wrote:
    CrispyXUK wrote:
    What!? You have to pay to give birth?

    $7,500 apparently. That's including prenatal care for an uncomplicated, natural birth. Depending on insurance, you may pay only a percentage of that. (The girl in the link paid 20%)
    That's fucking mental.

    I'm reading that forum some more - one woman says her 1st child cost $50k and the 2nd $30k, but the insurance covered most of it!

    It all depends on your insurance. My first baby only cost me $200 total!

    There's something really surreal reading that.

    It made me laugh that some woman further in lived in canada for a while and said they paid through the nose (and by that she meant 2 x as much) in taxes compared with the US. Clearly she didn't notice how much her insurance costs her in the US and the fact you still need to pay more on top for every doctor's visit or prescription. Zovarix (for cold sores) has to be bought on prescription in the US and costs about $100. Of course we can buy it over the counter for under a fiver (? - has never had to buy it).
  • Xerx3s 24 Jul 2009 00:34:27 23,944 posts
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    FWB wrote:
    Had to use the Canadian NHS once while I was living there and it was swift and courteous.

    The number of medical ads in N.America is astonishing. You'd think you'd best never leave the house the amount of dangers they throw at you.

    I head that the Canadians have some very good health and financial systems. We could probably learn a thing or two from them.
  • Latin 24 Jul 2009 00:35:04 3,814 posts
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    Yeah, we think our system is really shit but I much prefer it to the yank version, after all you can pay for private healtchcare here if you want it.
  • FWB 24 Jul 2009 00:37:07 45,107 posts
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    The NHS has its faults, but it ain't half bad.
  • Psychotext 24 Jul 2009 00:37:50 54,763 posts
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    Latin wrote:
    Yeah, we think our system is really shit but I much prefer it to the yank version, after all you can pay for private healtchcare here if you want it.
    That's pretty much why I like it.

    I just wish the GP service was better.
  • DaisyD 24 Jul 2009 00:38:58 11,826 posts
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    Xerx3s wrote:


    And there are Europeans and Canadians going to Cuba to receive treatment, so what. Europeans are being shipped all over the place. You know why? Because our medical care system pays for getting treatment asap.

    I'm not saying that we have a startrek perfect system. Fuck me, far from it. It's like democracy though. Even though it's shite, it's the best there is.

    Cuba is bought up in Sicko. Michael Moore took a whole load of 9/11 heroes who had been suffering health problems ever since to Cuba. One woman needs to take a special inhaler all the time now and it costs her over 100 bucks in the US. In Cuba she could get the exact same drug for a dollar (might have even been less). They let her buy loads.

    Lets face it, Capitalist America is scared that Social Healthcare is communist and believe everything communist is bad, bad, bad.
  • Xerx3s 24 Jul 2009 00:39:21 23,944 posts
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    Latin wrote:
    Yeah, we think our system is really shit but I much prefer it to the yank version, after all you can pay for private healtchcare here if you want it.

    Extremes are never good, a mixed economy system and such has always served it's purposes.
  • FWB 24 Jul 2009 00:39:45 45,107 posts
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    Speaking of which, you do all have your European medical card, don't you? :)
  • Xerx3s 24 Jul 2009 00:40:38 23,944 posts
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    DaisyD wrote:
    Xerx3s wrote:


    And there are Europeans and Canadians going to Cuba to receive treatment, so what. Europeans are being shipped all over the place. You know why? Because our medical care system pays for getting treatment asap.

    I'm not saying that we have a startrek perfect system. Fuck me, far from it. It's like democracy though. Even though it's shite, it's the best there is.

    Cuba is bought up in Sicko. Michael Moore took a whole load of 9/11 heroes who had been suffering health problems ever since to Cuba. One woman needs to take a special inhaler all the time now and it costs her over 100 bucks in the US. In Cuba she could get the exact same drug for a dollar (might have even been less). They let her buy loads.

    Lets face it, Capitalist America is scared that Social Healthcare is communist and believe everything communist is bad, bad, bad.

    In perspective: For us it's a nice way to offload some of our medical care but most cubans are less fortunate.
  • DaisyD 24 Jul 2009 00:41:06 11,826 posts
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    FWB wrote:
    The NHS has its faults, but it ain't half bad.

    And there are plenty of loop holes that can be easily used. For example if you have to wait more than 3 months (?) for surgery, you can nominate another hospital in Europe that can do it quicker (and is usually nicer) and the NHS pay for you to go there and have your treatment.
  • DaisyD 24 Jul 2009 00:42:53 11,826 posts
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    Xerx3s wrote:
    DaisyD wrote:
    Xerx3s wrote:


    And there are Europeans and Canadians going to Cuba to receive treatment, so what. Europeans are being shipped all over the place. You know why? Because our medical care system pays for getting treatment asap.

    I'm not saying that we have a startrek perfect system. Fuck me, far from it. It's like democracy though. Even though it's shite, it's the best there is.

    Cuba is bought up in Sicko. Michael Moore took a whole load of 9/11 heroes who had been suffering health problems ever since to Cuba. One woman needs to take a special inhaler all the time now and it costs her over 100 bucks in the US. In Cuba she could get the exact same drug for a dollar (might have even been less). They let her buy loads.

    Lets face it, Capitalist America is scared that Social Healthcare is communist and believe everything communist is bad, bad, bad.

    In perspective: For us it's a nice way to offload some of our medical care but most cubans are less fortunate.

    True, but the NHS don't off load our cases on to Cuba.
  • Xerx3s 24 Jul 2009 00:43:28 23,944 posts
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    DaisyD wrote:
    FWB wrote:
    The NHS has its faults, but it ain't half bad.

    And there are plenty of loop holes that can be easily used. For example if you have to wait more than 3 months (?) for surgery, you can nominate another hospital in Europe that can do it quicker (and is usually nicer) and the NHS pay for you to go there and have your treatment.

    Not really a loophole is it? More like standard regulations. It's pretty much default here to ship patients to Germany or Poland because it's equal/better quality service and cheaper as well. They have the overcapacity and all that.
  • Bill-Gates-is-Evil 24 Jul 2009 00:43:45 8,934 posts
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    My politics is that of a libertarian. My core political belief is that people should not be compelled to do anything, and that the government only has one proper role: to protect individuals from physical force.

    Now, of the 50 million uninsured, about a third of them are illegal aliens. About another third are people my age that think they're invincible and would rather spend the money on videogames. The rest can't afford it/don't have a job.

    See if you fuck up, you experience pain. Pain is good: it provides information that guides you to recorrect your course. If someone uninsured needs medical attention, thats very stressful. Good. Let them feel that stress: it's telling them they're doing something wrong.

    Blanket medical care disperses individual responsibility. This contributes to an immature society that act like children, with the government being mom and dad.

    Now understand if something horrible happens to you, you'll get treated regardless. They don't turn you out if you've just taken a bullet to the leg.

    I know I'm stating wild crazy beliefs on a forum that is decidedly much further left than the country I come from. But giving somebody goods and services they haven't earned is dulling them of the pain they need to experience to properly correct their life. It's the medical equivalent of giving someone pills to dull the pain of a toothache, but not addressing the core problem.

    Then there is the issue of: what will nationalizing health care do to the pace at which medical technology progresses? I mean, it's easy for Europe to have cheap socialized health care while American's foot such a massive part of the R&D part of the bill. We invest and risk our money building new technologies, you guys simply have to pay for the finished product. How many millions will die if say, cures and treaments for Cancer are delayed 10 years because the current politician in office wants companies to cut costs so as not to burden their government balance sheet?

    Relative poverty is such a sham and a complete tribalist mindset. I'd so much rather welfare money go to Africa than American's who in a vast majority of other countries would be considered rich.
  • Xerx3s 24 Jul 2009 00:45:04 23,944 posts
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    DaisyD wrote:
    Xerx3s wrote:
    DaisyD wrote:
    Xerx3s wrote:


    And there are Europeans and Canadians going to Cuba to receive treatment, so what. Europeans are being shipped all over the place. You know why? Because our medical care system pays for getting treatment asap.

    I'm not saying that we have a startrek perfect system. Fuck me, far from it. It's like democracy though. Even though it's shite, it's the best there is.

    Cuba is bought up in Sicko. Michael Moore took a whole load of 9/11 heroes who had been suffering health problems ever since to Cuba. One woman needs to take a special inhaler all the time now and it costs her over 100 bucks in the US. In Cuba she could get the exact same drug for a dollar (might have even been less). They let her buy loads.

    Lets face it, Capitalist America is scared that Social Healthcare is communist and believe everything communist is bad, bad, bad.

    In perspective: For us it's a nice way to offload some of our medical care but most cubans are less fortunate.

    True, but the NHS don't off load our cases on to Cuba.

    Oh we just poke ourselves in the eye and demand that we get eye treatment in Cuba when we feel like a vacation. Cigars are good for your eyes and all that.
  • Psychotext 24 Jul 2009 00:46:32 54,763 posts
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    Bill Gates is Evil wrote:
    My politics is that of a libertarian. My core political belief is that people should not be compelled to do anything, and that the government only has one proper role: to protect individuals from physical force.

    Now, of the 50 million uninsured, about a third of them are illegal aliens. About another third are people my age that think they're invincible and would rather spend the money on videogames. The rest can't afford it/don't have a job.

    See if you fuck up, you experience pain. Pain is good: it provides information that guides you to recorrect your course. If someone uninsured needs medical attention, thats very stressful. Good. Let them feel that stress: it's telling them they're doing something wrong.

    Blanket medical care disperses individual responsibility. This contributes to an immature society that act like children, with the government being mom and dad.

    Now understand if something horrible happens to you, you'll get treated regardless. They don't turn you out if you've just taken a bullet to the leg.

    I know I'm stating wild crazy beliefs on a forum that is decidedly much further left than the country I come from. But giving somebody goods and services they haven't earned is dulling them of the pain they need to experience to properly correct their life. It's the medical equivalent of giving someone pills to dull the pain of a toothache, but not addressing the core problem.

    Then there is the issue of: what will nationalizing health care do to the pace at which medical technology progresses? I mean, it's easy for Europe to have cheap socialized health care while American's foot such a massive part of the R&D part of the bill. We invest and risk our money building new technologies, you guys simply have to pay for the finished product. How many millions will die if say, cures and treaments for Cancer are delayed 10 years because the current politician in office wants companies to cut costs so as not to burden their government balance sheet?

    Relative poverty is such a sham and a complete tribalist mindset. I'd so much rather welfare money go to Africa than American's who in a vast majority of other countries would be considered rich.
    I'm not going to comment on that. Suffice to say that my already low opinion of you has got considerably lower BGiE.
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