Prince of Persia

By Ellie Gibson Published 20 October, 2008

A royal knockout?

The problem with trade shows is that while you get to play a lot of games, you don't get to play any of them for long. When it comes to simpler, more familiar titles like LocoRoco 2, this doesn't matter so much. In the case of games like Hula Wii, it's a mercy. But it's a real issue as far as the new Prince of Persia is concerned. It's less familiar than you might think and by no means simple.

So we discovered at this year's Tokyo Game Show, where we played through a half-hour demo led by producer Ben Mattes. After the time was up, we had more questions than answers.

They began to emerge during the game's opening sequence. The visuals are just as pretty as you've seen in the screenshots, but it's ruined the moment the characters open their mouths. Our hero may be wearing a load of scarves but he sounds no more Persian than Jamie Oliver, and would be better off calling himself the Prince of Canadia. His new sidekick, Elika, also sounds like she's from Montreal, though she's dressed like a mail-order bride from Minsk.

There's a bit of business with the prince and Elika and a donkey. The donkey is the only one capable of getting through a dialogue exchange without making a wisecrack. The prince says things like "Whoa". At one point he falls down a chasm, and you think he's going to say, "Oh, crap!", but perhaps that was too edgy, because it turns into, "Oh, cra-aaaaah!" On another occasion there's an allegedly comedic reference to 'Farah', which according to Mattes is "the extent of the connection with the previous Prince of Persia games". Fans may feel that's a shame, and wish for a (sands of) time when the prince was quieter, nobler and didn't say "aboot".

'Prince of Persia' Screenshot 1

Someone should tell her pedal pushers are well Y2K5, too.

But perhaps it's aboot time we all moved on. Since the new Prince of Persia was announced, Ubisoft has been frank about its intention to take the series in a new direction. From the first moment you pick up the controller, it's clear that's what's happened. Walking around is different; the prince moves more slowly, with a heavier gait. He can pull off huge jumps and impressive acrobatic moves, but the pace is slower here too.

You control the prince using a new system that we're told was designed to be simpler and more intuitive. If you want to do a wall-run, for example, you no longer need to worry about pressing a second button. Just jump at the wall and the prince will run along it automatically - either vertically or horizontally, depending on which angle you made the jump from. Then just press the jump button again to eject from the run.

'Prince of Persia' Screenshot 2

The Prince and Elika must restore light to the mystical land of MotorStorm.

A bit of confidence is required to jump at a wall and trust the prince will run along it, especially when he doesn't seem to do this the first few tries. It took a little practice to work out how to get the angle right and build up confidence, but not much. There was a problem with one particular ledge where the prince kept dropping down and hanging instead of jumping off. This is the sort of niggly issue that final testing is designed to iron out, however. For the most part we were able to make the prince run, jump, climb posts and swing off poles without much difficulty - though perhaps without quite the same fast-paced fluidity as in the Sands of Time trilogy.

But it's in combat situations where the new Prince of Persia really stands apart. You have one button for sword-slashing and another for using your gauntlet, and you can combine button presses to pull off different kinds of attacks. So it's B to throw your enemy in the air, A to jump up after him and X to slash him to the ground on Xbox 360, for example. Nothing revolutionary there, but the twist is that combat takes place at a much slower pace. It's not just slower than in previous POP titles, but slower than in the vast majority of action games. There are no prizes for fast fingerwork here, as Mattes explains.

"You have quite a lot to unlearn in the combat system of this game. This is not a game that rewards button-mashing anywhere - not in acrobatics nor in combat. Button-mashers don't have fun until they unlearn to not mash the button," he says. "What we want, as a player experience, is sitting back, pressing the buttons more methodically and strategically, and therefore getting sucked into the flow of the game - rather than the aggressive, spastic button-mashing that other combat games sometimes feature."

As a seasoned button-masher, your graceless correspondent begins hammering out button combos. Just as Mattes warned, it doesn't work. So he tries to break it down further: "There's a large window of opportunity in between each button-press, and you don't ever need to press the button more than once. You can press B and literally wait almost a full second before you need to input the next key. See that freeze, that slowdown there? We have that in between every move."

We do our best to follow his instructions, but old habits die hard. There are moments where we can't resist the temptation to simply hammer away at the X button. This produces a flurry of slashes which, to be honest, seems to be at least as effective as B-wait-A-wait-X-wait. It's neither as spectacular or as satisfying though, and besides, we're only dealing tutorial level enemies at this point.

Mattes skips ahead to a later point in the game to show what happens when you're dealing with the big boys. Or rather, big boy, as you only ever face off with one enemy at a time in Prince of Persia. In this instance, it's the hulking great Hunter previously seen in the video on Eurogamer TV (skip ahead to 1m 40s).

'Prince of Persia' Screenshot 4

This here is the Hunter. Known to his friends as Fat Edward Scissorhands.

The Hunter is capable of entering various "states" where it's impervious to certain attacks. "States serve multiple purposes," says Mattes. "They mix up combat and they are also a strategic thing; they help us make sure players aren't just button-mashing, doing the same combo over and over again." And that's not all: "The enemy will adopt states to intelligently counteract the type of attack you are favouring." So our X-hammering trick doesn't work for long; the Hunter enters a state where it's protected against sword attacks, and we're forced to try combos instead.

We fail. The action slows right down, the Hunter moves in for the kill and a big B button symbol appears on the screen. Being a veteran of quick-time events as well as button-mashing, we press B instinctively, and sure enough the prince rolls out of the path of the enemy's attack. Yes, Mattes confirms, the prince has survived. But there's a penalty to pay - the enemy has regained health. According to Mattes, the idea behind this is to stop players whittling the health of enemies down bit by bit.

'Prince of Persia' Screenshot 5

Aha, the mysterious ancient desert town of Vancouver.

It feels awfully quick-time eventy, though, and many gamers aren't keen on quick-time events. Isn't Mattes worried about this? "I'm a little surprised to hear you call it 'quick-time eventy,'" he says. Well, the action goes all slo-mo, and a big button symbol appears on the screen, and you've got a split-second to press the corresponding button, and if you don't something bad happens. "We do have quick-time events, for sure," says Mattes. "To tell you the truth we added those button symbols on the screen a couple of weeks ago, because people were having a really hard time understanding what button to press, based just off of the supporting means.

"I think your eye is being attracted to that button, but there's a lot of supporting information we use to explain to the player what they need to do in that particular situation." However, Mattes admits, "It wasn't enough, so we added the buttons."

If you don't want to see the button symbols, there's an option to turn them off. "But then you have to be able to recognise the animation, the sound effect, the visual cues, the filters, all of the other elements that combine to help you understand what particular button to press in that sequence," Mattes warns.

The other bad news for aggressive button-mashers is you won't get away with constant attacking - a good defence strategy is essential. In fact you're forced to adopt a defensive stance just to move around the floor at a decent pace. When the prince enters a combat situation he starts moving even more slowly than when he's walking normally; he only speeds up when he's adopting the block pose.

"There's a reason for that. Defence is extremely valuable in combat, and we need to teach people how valuable defence is in this combat system, because it's not in people's nature to fight defensively," says Mattes. "But this combat system is very generous towards a defensive style of gameplay. Some of the most advanced strategies in the game require a mastery of defence. We make the prince much faster, in terms of manoeuvring on the floor, when he's blocking than when he's in his default stance, to favour more defensive strategies."

If you're still having trouble, there's yet another strategy you can employ to take down enemies: Elika. You can command your sidekick to leap in and launch an attack with a single press of the Y button. It's a bit like having an extra weapon, and you can also chain her attacks together with your own. Elika's a helpful ally who's quick to respond to commands and never gets in the way.

'Prince of Persia' Screenshot 6

She does an awful lot of standing about for someone who's supposed to be all acrobatic.

She's also handy to have around when you're navigating levels. For example, pressing Y in the middle of a jump will make her take your hand and pull you to safety. If you're standing still, Y makes her release a glowing blue compass light that will trace out the path through the level for you. Purists might argue that the whole point of games like this should be working out the path from A to B for yourself, but you can always just ignore the compass power.

There are some issues, however, with how the prince and Elika interact. It comes back to the main problem with the opening cut-scene - the jarring inconsistencies between the beautiful, unique visual style, and the tired old script, storyline and relationships between characters. If Elika's so marvellously strong and acrobatic, why does the prince have to carry her on his back when climbing? Why does he end up carrying her in his arms during the opening sequence, while she simply remarks, "You really can put me down now"? You can't imagine Lara letting some bloke hoist her over his shoulder and prance about.

'Prince of Persia' Screenshot 7

Yep, you just wait there. Good idea.

But Prince of Persia will by no means be the first or last videogame to feature rubbishy dialogue, and while it's easy to identify that sort of thing within half an hour (or the story - something about a "Tree of Life" and someone's Dad and "healing the fertile grounds to collect the light seeds then returning to the temple to purchase magic powers to unlock new areas"), the gameplay is a lot harder to judge.

The good news is that this is because it's so different to what you'd expect from the modern Prince of Persia series, and from action-adventure games in general. However, the question remains whether the shift towards strategy and slower-paced combat has been a wise decision, and we'll have to wait for longer than half an hour's play to figure that out.

Prince of Persia is due out for PS3, Xbox 360 and PC on 5th December.

Picture of Ellie.

About Ellie Gibson

Since joining Eurogamer in the mid 2000s, Ellie has written about subjects as diverse as the fall of Gizmondo, the rise of Hollyoaks actresses in Red Alert games and the noise a bear makes under NSFW circumstances.

Read more articles from Ellie by visiting the Ellie Gibson archive page.

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Comments (82) Latest comment 3 years ago

Comments threads automatically close after 30 days, but please feel free to continue chatting on the forum!

  • rumrum4444 #1 3 years ago


    1st

  • KevvyMetal79 #2 3 years ago

    congrates

  • Bezzy #3 3 years ago

    "Someone should tell her pedal pushers are well Y2K5, too."
    Lost on nerds :/

  • BurningR #4 3 years ago

    "His new sidekick, Elika, also sounds like she's from Montreal, though she's dressed like a mail-order bride from Minsk."

    Know a lot of mailorder brides, do you? Maybe from personal experience, eh? *wink* *wink* *unudge* nudge*

  • mattigan #5 3 years ago

    Alarm bells are ringing in my head...

    They started when I heard that you are being forced to play the game the way the developers think you should.

    And then when the description of how the developers think it shold be played sounded incredubly dull, they got louder!!

  • dan13l #6 3 years ago

    This whole preview has triggered massive alarm bells. It sounds like there are still an awful lot of problems to overcome between now and release. Certainly sounds like this could be less essential than I first thought.

  • kangarootoo #7 3 years ago

    "rather than the aggressive, spastic button-mashing that other combat games sometimes feature"

    Did he really say that? Sheesh.

  • Luckyjim #8 3 years ago

    Sound like the voice acting suffers from 'Robin Hood: Prince of Thieves' syndrome.

    Bad voice acting and dialogue is not a game breaker for me, but it does seriously diminish any enjoyment I have (See, particularly, Yakuza 1, MGS4, any FF game and Assassin's Creed).

  • daz_john_smith #9 3 years ago

    I don't like the sound of just jumping at a wall to 'wall run'. If I'm not mistaken Ninja Gaiden employed a similar system and I found it to be horribly trail & error and random; luckily it wasn't all that necessary in that game, in POP however I imagine it's alot more vital.

  • kangarootoo #10 3 years ago

    Reading throguh the rest of the article, and taking my comment above in hand, Mattes seems to have a bit of a chip on his shoulder about traditional quick paces fighting games.

    I realise that PoP isn't God of War, and neither should it be. However, being different is only good if you provide at least the same level of quality. I worry that change for change's sake has crept in here.

    I hold judgement for the full review though.

  • matrim83 #11 3 years ago

    Not sounding good. Pity.

  • groovychainsaw #12 3 years ago

    Well, at least they changed that combat... That has always been the worst bit. Whether or not it is better remains to be seen though....
    Platforming sounds worrying though - why can't they make it fluid speed-run through a massive tower, like the best bits in the original? Sounds (dare I say it) a bit dumbed down, as if building on the assassin's creed engine left them with some over-simplified platform controls.

  • penhalion #13 3 years ago

    So they really messed it up basically. It sounds like it is neither fun nor instinctive to play in any way what so ever! Basically, in order to get a cinematic combat system, they have resoirted to the old press X to watch cinematic combat move A, then press Y to see combat move B etc. etc. No real player initiative in the combat at all. Then compund that with the wall runs not working unless you are at the right angle and you just know that the producer simply doesn't seem to understand how to create fun gameplay!

    Basically he's taken over the POP franchise without understanding it.

  • menage #14 3 years ago

    That whole adding a big button and than questioning why people would feel it was a QTE screams of fail already.

    I'll wait for the reviews, don't need another AC.

  • dr_faulk #15 3 years ago

    "But Prince of Persia will by no means be the first or last videogame to feature rubbishy dialogue"

    Look, videogames need creative scriptwriters and creative editors and creative directors, otherwise they will never grow up. Videogames are becoming so popular amongst the great unwashed, that it's embarassing being a 25 year old playing a game about a Tree of fucking Life in front of your parents, girlfriend, friends, whatever.

    I mean, a game like Animal Crossing is obviously aimed at kids, but it's got enough wit and charm in its dialogue to even make grown-ups smile. For action games that are aimed at teenagers, I often think you'd be better off leaving out story, script and dialogue, which would not only save the developer money, but the gameplayer time.

  • muscleblade #16 3 years ago

    Crosses off the very populated "must buy" list and puts it on the equally populated "maybe" list with games like Mirrors Edge.

  • JYM60 #17 3 years ago

    Girl looks annoying.

  • Kiigan #18 3 years ago

    The combat sounds horrible. And the presence of QTEs all but guarantees I won't want to play it.

    A bloody shame :(

  • Cappy #19 3 years ago

    Could be brilliant, could also turn out as a complete disaster.

    I'm not sure I like the idea of the game actually 'punishing' the player when they choose to explore alternate strategies to the one the developers have in mind. I like to experiment throughout when I play games and the idea of there being a 'right' way with everything else 'wrong' may bring a degree of certainty for the more casual player but falls flat for more experienced gamers who are always looking for chinks in the armour to exploit, ways of finishing battles quickly, ways to exploit the AI etc.

    It sounds like they're building on the Assassin's Creed template to make something even more casual.

  • BadBoyBonner #20 3 years ago

    Hmmmm....reading this made it sound like comparing Exploding Fist from the Spectrum to Tekken on the PS.

    While it WAS fun to think at about one move per second years ago - things have moved on to split second - making an action adventure game seemingly frustratingly slow to play sounds like a very high risk move that was implemented to try and open it up to the lowest common denominator.

    I worry the net result will be a panning by the critics, derision from the old fans ( including me), and the casual gamer it maybe target to capture will ignore en mass.

  • JohnnyWashnGo #21 3 years ago

    Dear me, sounds like a lot of hard work.

    Think I will pass.

  • sifujames #22 3 years ago

    What is it with developers and Quick Time Events? They don't add anything to the game, in fact they ruin the flow of the game. Let us beat the enemy in our own way and then show the stupid cinematic. My high hopes for this game have been diminished after this preview, let's hope Ubisoft pull it together.

    And as for Canadian accents and modern language?! Oh dear oh dear...

  • pjmaybe #23 3 years ago

    Facking QTEs...

    /shakes fist at Ubi

  • MrDurandPierre #24 3 years ago

    I'm a big fan of the series and absolutely adore the visual style of this game, but it sounds like it's going to fall short of its potential quite a bit.

    I was aware of the "rubbishy dialogue" and poor voice-acting already, which is where I knew that even at its best it could only be a 9/10 game. I mean RE4 had a crap story and poor dialogue, but it's still a game that I've played to completion 3 times and has held up miraculously well over the years. I figured even though this would be no Shadow of the Colossus, it might still be a near-great game.

    But the combat does sound worrisome here. I'm all for the slower pace, but it sounds like there's only one right way to get through the combat sequences, which in essence makes them QTEs. That sounds much less fun to me.

    The platforming still sounds great and visually it looks as amazing as ever, so I'm sure it will still be pretty good. But I'm not getting my hopes up quite yet about it being worthy of a purchase at launch.

  • mingster #25 3 years ago

    I'm a bit upset about the very un-pc use of the word spastic in the review.
    Very un-necessary.

  • Triggerhappytel #26 3 years ago

    I haven't finished reading this preview yet, but just had to come here and comment on the script. Sounds horrible and pretty much guarantees I won't enjoy whatever the plot is.

  • niz #27 3 years ago

    I'd rather have a PoP game with as little combat as possible, but lots of puzzles and platforming instead.

    Even the otherwise excellent Sands of Time had too much combat for my liking.

  • mingster #28 3 years ago

    Tbh i think they've milked this title waay to much now...
    Time for the prince to hang up his boots.

  • pjmaybe #29 3 years ago

    "I'm a bit upset about the very un-pc use of the word spastic in the review.
    Very un-necessary. "

    Good job the preview's not sponsored by Sony otherwise you'd have to wait 2 weeks to read it.

  • mingster #30 3 years ago

    Lol very true..
    how a bout a 'patch' for the preview instead to remove the offending word.

  • BobsUncle #31 3 years ago

    "I'm a little surprised to hear you call it 'quick-time eventy,"

    Oh dear. So he's packed it full of QTE's, but he doesn't think they are QTE's, so now he's upset that a professional games journo thinks it's full of QTE's, and he's probably worried because everyone hates QTE's.

  • Triggerhappytel #32 3 years ago

    Okay, I'm not convinced... first of all, someone should tell this guy that pressing a button at a designated moment to instigate a pre-rendered animation is a Quick Time Event, however you try to dress it up. Other than that, the combat might be a change for the better - it was increasingly focal in the SoT trilogy so a twist and a different pace might be for the best. The platforming sounds dumbed down (how can you get any more simplistic than pressing X to jump and R1 to handle wall-running?!) and the plot and script sounds bloody awful.

    To me this sounds like a potentially good game with a shit load of stupid flaws. But of course, we shall keenly wait for the review.

  • Load_2.0 #33 3 years ago

    From the review it sounds like POP ver 2.0.

    POP for dummies. Did you find Sands of Time or Two Thrones too difficult? Did you struggle to work out the puzzles? Were you defeated by enemies that required skill to defeat? Sick of having to learn how to play the game?

    Don't worry! POP the ADD version is here now. With clear easy to understand accents and nice big flashing buttons.
    You will have beaten the game in under 6 hours and you can move on to the next title!

    Hurrah.

  • Gnort #34 3 years ago

    Seems odd that they've decided to use the same platforming controls as Ninja Gaiden, which always seemed less precise than PoP's system. Not that it mattered, because NG was always about combat, with platforming a bit of an afterthought, kind of the reverse of PoP. Then again, if this game is even slower than Sands of Time, which was already far slower than Ninja Gaiden, maybe the control system will be a little more precise.

    Not really liking the sound of how this game is turning out, though.

  • alimokrane #35 3 years ago

    Clearly Dear Ellie, you have no idea how the previous prince of persias were like.

    1. in the sands of time trilogy, the prince, farah and all other characters had an american accent, I dont see why this is a problem now ?
    2. Combat has ALWAYS been slow in Prince of Persia. looking back at the prince of persia series, the combat system in this game is closer to what the games were like before the sands of time trilogy.
    3. QTEs: come on, you can bloody turn them off!!! why is this game being critisized for QTEs when games like Heavy Rain with heavy QTEs us, are being praised ?

    I suggest you go play the sands of time trilogy again.
    Edited by 1 at 20/10/08 @ 12:49

  • Gnort #36 3 years ago

    Honestly, the combat has always been a bit rubbish in PoP games, so I doubt the new system will be much worse. One of the best things they added to Two Thrones was the stealth kill mechanic, because it meant you didn't have to labour through the clunky combat as often as you would have before.

  • windflaw #37 3 years ago

    I'm actually more interested after reading that preview than I was before because it sounds like they're trying to do something a bit different. Can't blame folk for wanting traditional Prince of Persia mechanics in a Prince of Persia game though. Perhaps Ubisoft should've used a new IP instead?

  • Triggerhappytel #38 3 years ago

    alimokrane - I think the problem with the overall speech here is the scripting and delivery. No-one wants contemporary jokes or language in a game supposedly set about 3000 years ago (except Ubi, apparently), particularly if they are delivered with an abhorrent American accent.

    Also, you can turn off the QTE button prompt, but I doubt you'll be able to disable them entirely. You'll still need to press a certain button at a certain time to instigate a certain animation. It takes all the skill out of it. And I think the reason people are more concerned about QTEs here than Heavy Rain is that the PoP series doesn't need them - as proven by the last three games. I didn't like them in Fahrenheit, so for that reason HR is not particularly on my radar.

    Also, I'm 90% sure Princey was English in TSoT, possibly in the other two as well? Not sure about Farah, but either way their accents were more in-keeping with the period than generic emo US accents. Obviously someone speaking with a Persian accent would be optimum, but Ubi would never do that as the US market wouldn't like it.
    Edited by 1 at 20/10/08 @ 13:01

  • Arwin #39 3 years ago

    Lol, did Ted Price model for the Prince character? That drawing on the main page looks so much like him it's uncanny!

  • bonker #40 3 years ago

    "I'm a bit upset about the very un-pc use of the word spastic in the review.
    Very un-necessary. "

    Well you know what to do then ...

  • Les #41 3 years ago

    "What we want, as a player experience, is sitting back, pressing the buttons more methodically and strategically, and therefore getting sucked into the flow of the game - rather than the aggressive, spastic button-mashing that other combat games sometimes feature."

    Can't see what's wrong with that philosphy. Whether it's well implemented remains to be seen. Controls (or user imput) are what limits games the most. Anything that helps to make a game better within the limits enforced by the controls is a plus IMO.

  • Gearskin #42 3 years ago

    I think this'll be lovely.

  • Les #43 3 years ago

    "Lets remove all interaction and have scripted cutscenes. Absolute pish. They are hollow and completely pull you out of the "moment".

    What was a novel gimmick in the previous generation has no become a tired shortcut for developers today."

    I really don't see what QTE has to do with this gen versus the previous. Controls for 360 and PS3* haven't changed and that's what QTE is a solution for: The inability of contemporary control schemes to supply the imput required for complex interactions between avatar and the rest of the game world.

    * Of course PS3 does feature motion sensing but it's too new for most developers to actually do something useful with yet.

  • hiddenranbir #44 3 years ago

    When Sands of Time was announced it was an exciting re-imagining because it had been so long.

    This second re-imagining isn't coming with that same sense of "Oh I get to play a game I haven't played in yonks" kind of deal.

  • kangarootoo #45 3 years ago

    @alimokrane

    "Dear Ellie"? Patronising, a little? Bit childish don't you think?


    "the prince, farah and all other characters had an american accent, I dont see why this is a problem now"

    The prince character in Sands of Time had an english accent. Can't remember if the Farah character did or not. And everybody complained about the accent of the Prince in every sequel after SoT, so it was a problem back then.


    "Combat has ALWAYS been slow in Prince of Persia. looking back at the prince of persia series, the combat system in this game is closer to what the games were like before the sands of time trilogy."

    How are you able to define what "slow" is without having played the game. Ellie has played it (and has obviously played the previous games). Perhaps she should have said "slower", but she probably didn't think splitting hairs like that mattered.

    Some of the text in the article (Mattes himself says "You can press B and literally wait almost a full second before you need to input the next key" at one point) suggests to me that combat is a LOT slower than in previous versions, so what are you referring to that makes you think otherwise?


    "QTEs: come on, you can bloody turn them off!!! why is this game being critisized for QTEs when games like Heavy Rain with heavy QTEs us, are being praised ?"

    Who is praising their use in Heavy Rain? Everything I have read has said good thing about HR, BUT referred to QTEs as an as yet unresolved point of concern. In fact QTEs are the main thing everyone refers to negatively when talking about HR.

    And turning off the onscreen button prompt is not the same as turning off the QTE itself. This may be a leap of faith, but I'm pretty sure the thing people object to with QTEs is the game mechanic, not the onscreen button symbols used.


    I am sensing a chip on a shoulder here, but I'm not sure why.
    Edited by 1 at 20/10/08 @ 13:54

  • menage #46 3 years ago

    "Of course PS3 does feature motion sensing but it's too new for most developers to actually do something useful with yet. "

    Multiplatfom game rules that out, and quite frankly, I could live without the function entirely. I'd even prefer QTEs if that's the alternative.

  • Arwin #47 3 years ago

    @menage: really? Rather than flick or tilt the sixaxis to the left, you'd prefer to just press some random button? The sixaxis would allow a lot of QTE to be replaced with something a bit more intuitive imho.

  • alimokrane #48 3 years ago

    @kangarootoo

    Wow! I have no idea how you got Patronising from that!!

    The preview makes a MASSIVE DEAL out of the accent and hence my comment about it not being problematic when considering the previous trilogy.

    I have seen videos of the combat in action to convince me it's at least as slow as the previous trilogy. Just because the combat system allows me to wait for a second until I can put a further control input doesnt mean I have to do it. Ellie is literally making the combat look like this SLOW MOTION trash. Since when was this a problem to begin with, even if it's REALLY slow ? The game is trying to distinguish itself from others. NOT all games have to be Ninja Gaidens

    QTEs: go read what Ben Mattes said again, the tutorial teaches you what you're supposed to do in those kind of situations. I presume it's something similar to what Tomb Raider Underworld is doing with its QTEs. i.e. giving you time to see what you're supposed to and then you have to press the correct button to actually do it without having to wait and see what kind of button it is you need to press. In Tomb raider for example, time slows down to show you that a ledge is falling, hence press the jump button. in Prince of Persia for example, an upcoming sword attack which you can guard with the Gauntlet Button. Fend off a Corrupted attack hence press the Elika Button because she's the only one that doesnt die when touching the corruption ...etc I hope that clarifies what I meant.

    Edited by 2 at 20/10/08 @ 14:04

  • kangarootoo #49 3 years ago

    @GhenghisNaan

    I hear where you are coming from, but a little less patronising hyperbole might have been nice. QTEs turn up in games for all sorts of reasons, and it is usually a little more complex than experienced designers simply not being aware that "The key is to design games from a gameplay perspective, and for designers to understand what their designs actually mean for the development".

    I'm not sure what you do for a living. Its hard to tell whether you work in the business or not, as some of your comments seem in the right direction. I am guessing that if you are a dev you aren't a designer, but someone who works with them and doesn't rate the discipline?

    In my experience, daft QTE events rarely come from the design team. They usually originate from other sources that want the explosive drmatic visuals without any concern for how the player might actually be included in the fun. Maybe I've just been lucky in the people I've worked with.


    Anyway, the basic thinking behind a QTE can be sound enough. I.e. "Train a player with familiar mechanics and give them challenges that these learned skills can be applied to, instead of testing them with an entirely new challenge that requires a unique solution every single moment". Its just that the mechanic QTE itself has problems in the way it is implemented most of the time.

    QTEs almost always seen to give the player very little notice. One minute they are controlling the game using the controls they have taken time to learn, the next they are being presented with a reaction based challenge. Half the time I don't see the bloody things coming first time around.

    Second up, far too often the failure penalty for QTEs is too harsh. Often the player is set back some, and has to repeat a previously successfully completed sequence of challenges (bad design in itself). Worst case, the player is killed with even more repetition to follow (bad checkpointing can combine with QTEs for a madddening combination).


    "It takes balls and reckless arrogance to go against the grain, which is why most devs stick to safe formats and bandwagons because they're led by accountants who have neither balls nor any sense of adventure to actually allow anything new to be tried. Welcome to the corporate era of gaming."

    What is also absolutely vital when "going against the grain", and which everyone always seems to forget when slagging off development, is experience and proper process and due diligence. Simply "having the balls to be different" without any of the knowledge and process to back it up usually results in highly original, low quality, unplayable rubbish.

    In one sentence you complain of "lofty, irresponsible ideas", and in the next you complain of "accountants who have neither balls nor any sense of adventure to actually allow anything new to be tried".

    It might surprise many to find out that making good games is pretty damn difficult. And a balance between originality and quality implementation has to be found. And its a different balance every single time. But then these things always look trivial to the armchair expert ;)

  • kangarootoo #50 3 years ago

    @alimokrane

    Maybe I misread the mood of the text. In my mind it read as a parent patronising a child. If I was off the mark, I apologise.

    Regards the implementation of QTEs in this case, I am holding judgement. As I said in my post above to GhenghisNaan, the principal behind QTEs can be sound enough. One of the issues of implementation you have raised that I missed is context. Am I essentially pressing the block button to block, or am I pressing a seemingly random series of buttons to pedal a bicycle around objects in my path?

    I get your point, and tbh I probably went a bit harsh on you 'cos I thought you were being sexist with your opening address. Oops.

  • mingster #51 3 years ago

    sounds like dragons lair to me

  • Thalanos #52 3 years ago

    Well that preview was more negative than I was expecting! I did have very high hopes for this game.

    While I'm a bit disappointed, I never base my purchasing decisions on a single preview. It may all come together in the end right? Consider my expectations lowered, but I'm still watching this one closely.

  • Les #53 3 years ago

    "It seems QTE's emerge when designers are allowed to go nuts, and want all this crazy stuff to happen, which the men at top find amazing and say "hell yes" to, and then when the programmers and artists and riggers turn around and say "you know it'll take FOREVER to do that"

    It's not so much that it takes 'forever' as that it is impossible. There's no way to get the required user imput for the more elaborate action sequences. Some developers go for QTE, others go for cut scenes or canned special moves. TBH I don't care much about which method a developer chooses.

  • alimokrane #54 3 years ago

    @kangarootoo

    Hehe. No that was definately not my intention. /apologies to Ellie.

    Regarding the QTEs, YES, that is exactly what I mean. It's not random button press, it's contextual just like the one in Tomb Raider Underworld.

  • sifujames #55 3 years ago

    @Les - I take your point about QTEs allowing for actions that are more elaborate then what is within the standard moveset of the character, but the fault with that thinking is that not only do you destroy any feelings of immersion (as would a pre-rendered cutscene), but as kangarootoo says, you also introduce a random set of controls that bare no relationship to what's immediately preceded it, thereby IMO doubling the feeling of being removed from the game.

  • Frandroid #56 3 years ago

    "they unlearn to not mash the button"
    Sounds like someone needs to investigate double negatives and the effect they have on the overall meaning of your sentence.

    Spastic
    adj Of, relating to, or characterized by spasms
    n A person affected with spastic paralysis

    Spastic has legitimate uses other than as a derogatory term. As pointed out above, in some parts of the world it may not have any negative connotations.

    [/pedant]

  • menage #57 3 years ago

    @Arwin

    Yes.

    To be fair, I played 2 games with motion sensing in it (Ratchet and Uncharted) and in both games the response time wasn't that good to really implement rapid movements or last resort tactics.
    Also, I wouldn't mind it so much if I didn't have to hold the controller perfectly straight when doing this, when on a couch it's always in a 45 degree angle, making me switch positions is really annoying. It just doesn't feel natural or immersive at all. But that's just my experience with those 2 games. Maybe I haven't played the right ones.

    It was a little bit better in the LBp beta, but that was only a shake to let go of the jetpack, which wasn't always working right away either. I just don't think it's really working so I'd rather live without it than have a half assed attempt.
    Edited by 2 at 20/10/08 @ 15:08

  • FlipC #58 3 years ago

    Referring to the QTEs I find it interesting that the initial proposal was to have the player divine the correct decision from the visuals etc. rather then a crude 'press this button' graphic; I found it interesting as it still reveals the linear mind-set still in play for QTEs.

    Imagine instead the scenario where the enemy lifts a foot to crush you and the action slows down as you make a choice.

    Sure you can take the obvious option of rolling out of the way at which point the action speeds back up and the foot comes down; but how about if you jumped instead - bad move on its own you get squished, but how about jumping then slashing upwards with your sword? The enemy reels back a little you land and then roll out of the way as before, same position but you've hurt them. Now how about instead of reacting instantly you wait as the foot descends and then just slash upwards with your sword? The enemy reels back, you roll out of the way and get a free attack as the enemy is still wrong-footed; it's a much more dangerous move but it leaves you in a stronger position.

    You still get the cinematical approach with the same start and end positions without reducing the player to a moronic reactional robot and plays into the risk for reward that we all love.

  • Razorus #59 3 years ago

    Oh dear. I'm not too thrilled about slower pace. The combat I can deal with but to be honest, the voice acting may very well ruin the ENTIRE game for me. It's that important. However, one thing does sound promising, and it is this:

    "There's a bit of business with the prince and Elika and a donkey."
    Prince of Porno anyone?

  • Slipstream #60 3 years ago

    I love QTE's >.< God of War, Shenmue and Yakuza QTE's are great fun! Even though the latter two are just Triangle presses, they are still fun to execute and watch.

  • sneetch #61 3 years ago

    @mingster
    "I'm a bit upset about the very un-pc use of the word spastic in the review.
    Very un-necessary."

    You mean the use of the word spastic in a direct quote in the preview, surely?

    As Frandroid pointed out spastic has legitimate uses other than as a derogatory term. Unfortunately, there is a growing tendency for people to seek offence in these matters. Perhaps people feel the need to prove how PC they are by attacking what they perceive as non-PC behaviour?

  • kangarootoo #62 3 years ago

    I think I first raised the question over the use of the term spastic. I certainly wasn't trying to prove anything to anyone (like I'd give a shit about such things).

    I was simply raising an eyebrow over the use of a word, which it turns out had limited meaning in my vocabulary. Since then the thread has informed my vocabulary, so its no longer an issue for me.

  • Les #63 3 years ago

    "but the fault with that thinking is that not only do you destroy any feelings of immersion (as would a pre-rendered cutscene), but as kangarootoo says, you also introduce a random set of controls that bare no relationship to what's immediately preceded it, thereby IMO doubling the feeling of being removed from the game."

    I don't agree with the immersion point TBH. I want games to be entertaining (as I want books, movies and other forms of entertainment) and I don't need to escape reality. I really don't see why a cut scene or QTE by definition should take away from immersion. At all times I'm playing a game I know I'm playing a game (like I would while reading a book). I know cut scenes can occur, I know QTE's can occur, I know mini games with completely different gameplay can occur as well as any other totally unrealistic situations and they don't bother me, as long as they're well executed.

    I do agree that controls in QTEs should be aligned with the normal controls (so same button for jumping, slashing, etc.) and that penalties should not be too severe as they often come as a surprise the first time. QTEs in God of War for example were excellent IMO and Metal Gear's cut scenes really add to the power of story telling.

  • Zaltan #64 3 years ago

    "The Prince and Elika must restore light to the mystical land of MotorStorm."
    LOL

  • kangarootoo #65 3 years ago

    @Les

    Seems we all agree that a fine balance has to be struck. If the balance is found, the results are at the very least tolerable (GoW). And if the balance is off, the results are a pain in the ass (Fahrenheit, for my money).

    Perhaps a question to be asked, as you referred to powerful and entertaining cutscenes, might be "Is the player's direct involvement at all times a MUST HAVE rule?"

    Should there be this middle ground between direct core mechanic and cutscene? As was mentioned earlier, QTEs seem to be there to fill the gap, where the dev wants player involvement but has presented them with a challenge they can not intuitively meet using the core controls. Should devs do this? Or should anything not covered by the core mechanics be either put in a non-interactive cutscene or removed?

    I dunno, I'm just throwing our the question as we all seem to be getting on so well :)

  • Pasco #66 3 years ago

    I like QTEs.

    I don't like the sound of the rest of it though. Slowing things down sounds like catering to the 'casual gamer' with a franchise that is/was inherently 'hardcore'. Why don't they concentrate on selling "Petz" to the casuals and giving us something a little bit challanging. Ninja Gaiden was already twice as fast as Sands of Time for God's sake.

    What is the framerate?

  • timberwolf #67 3 years ago

    "It's less familiar than you might think and by no means simple." HA! hahaha... oh that's not a joke. you do realise you can't die and it only lasts a few hours even though it's free roaming right... oh and it's on the assasins creed engine... so HA! hahaha.

  • Slipstream #68 3 years ago

    I suppose it's unfair to pass judgement on the games slower pace until it is actually played at its peak performance. If this is the direction Ubi are going with it fair enough, the game will be built around and assist this slower pace of gameplay. This doesn't suggest the game is gonna be poor by any means, putting a game up against rivals based this factor seems rather pointless to me. With this pace I expect immense animation in both the free running aspect and combat, as well as the new strategic turn that is promised.
    As long as the game remains entertaining I see no problem with the pacing, please do this right Ubi!
    Edited by 1 at 21/10/08 @ 01:22

  • ShiroBen #69 3 years ago

    Well, tiddlywinks. So basically they've taken out pretty much all the charm and intelligence of the first game and amplified all the irritating crap from the second and third games. Plus it seems like it's going to be a "No, you're not doing it right, THIS is how you're supposed to be playing our game, impudent gamer" game. It's all made worse, of course, because Sands of Time is genuinely one of the best games ever made,wanting only for some improvements to the combat system--just a simple rock-paper-scissors system of light fast attack, slow heavy attack, guard-breaker and dodge/parry would make things better. Maybe like a slower, more mature God Hand but with weapons and time-manipulation. Sounds fun to me!

    This, however, does not. Not at all. Big pass.

    To developers: For goodness sake, if you're going to have a story in your games HIRE A BLOODY WRITER AND DECENT VOICE ACTORS.

  • Max_Powers #70 3 years ago

    Shame, from the preview this sounds like a massive cock-up. I was interested in this game for the beautful art style and perceived throwback to Sands of Time.

    Shit script and voice-acting (helllo Assasins Creed), plus "you should play like we tell you to play" gameplay totally ruined my enthusiasm for this game.

    Ubisoft will probably blame the failure at retail at the art style though...

  • kangarootoo #71 3 years ago

    @FlipC

    "Imagine instead the scenario where the enemy lifts a foot to crush you and the action slows down as you make a choice."

    I annoyingly missed your post first time around, I say annoyingly as your point above is a great one.

    Maybe that is the core issue with QTEs. However they are dressed up, they are suddenly a removal of the choice that the player has enjoyed in the previous moments of the game. Even the decision to walk left or right, to punch or kick, is more choice than none. QTEs basically give you a choice between do or do not (as Yoda might say), with dire results if you choose the latter. Barely interactive some might say?

    If choice remains, as you suggest, I guess that would just be a moment of slowmotion and people wouldn't refer to it as a QTE anymore. They could do what they liked and bear the consequences, instead of being told by the game exactly what to do even down to button they should press.

    Interesting that Fahrenheit and Heavy Rain, games that are for presenting choice to the player, contain a lot of QTEs. The very mechanic that reduce choice down to one of tightly prescribed action or complete inaction.
    Edited by 1 at 21/10/08 @ 09:58

  • GlassMoon #72 3 years ago

    hmm... this preview's left me a bit worried about this game

  • hiddenranbir #73 3 years ago

    Farah also had an English accent in Sands of Time. That is why her return in the third felt so horrible.

    The English accent felt regal and not, dare I say it, common muck.
    Edited by 1 at 21/10/08 @ 12:29

  • Les #74 3 years ago

    "QTEs basically give you a choice between do or do not (as Yoda might say), with dire results if you choose the latter. Barely interactive some might say?"

    It's still interactive: It responds to the player input. I don't really see choice as having any value in and of itself. Look at rhythm games for example: Your timing is either wrong or right. Furthermore, there are situations, both in real life and in gaming, where there's only one viable option. If the bridge you're walking on collapses, running a few paces and timing your jump perfectly might be the only way to escape death. What good would it do to give the player the option to run the other way, to walk, to crouch, do a somersault, etc. ?

    Inherently games are restricted by the controls. It's up to designers to make optimal use of the available means for user input and this includes excluding user actions that simply don't make sense given the gameplay situation.

  • 3william56 #75 3 years ago

    Mixed feelings for me. I like the sound of a slower, more thoughtful combat. But the voicing, spastic aids (sorry!) and QTEs sound horrible, and the platforming losing the gorgeous Sands of Time grace and flow would be a real mistake.

    QTEs are popular because all devs seem to think that they're Quentin bl**dy Tarantino. FAIL!

  • kangarootoo #76 3 years ago

    @Les

    I've been careful not to dismiss QTEs out of hand, and I agree that choice of itself is not inherrently valuable. I am just focussing on differences and raising questions :)


    @3william56

    Spastic is officially a safe word now... though your use of the words "aids" might blow up in our faces :)

  • FlipC #77 3 years ago

    @Les - Except the difference is that rhythm games are essentially one long QTE, that is the gameplay.

    One of my dislikes regarding QTEs is the gorilla on the basketball court problem. Once a QTE is initiated the player becomes cued to respond to icons appearing on the screen, while doing so exactly how much of the on-screen action your reaction are prompting are you paying attention to?

    I find this a most amusing dichotomy in that QTEs were created to allow the developers to show off a cinematical event without turning it into a cut-scene and in the process forced our focus away from the very thing they wanted us to sit and watch.

  • Les #78 3 years ago

    @ FlipC

    Good point. Maybe audio cues should replace flashing icons or something. I must say that in GoW it never really obstructed my viewing of the action but in Kingdom Hearts II (still one of the best games ever thanks to the awesome soundtrack) it did, even though you had to press only one button in the QTEs. Audio cues would have worked much better in that one.

  • FlipC #79 3 years ago

    @Les

    But then you'd be discriminating against deaf players unless you add in the option for visual cues, and if you're having to put them in anyway why mess with a tried and tested formula?

    As you say some games do it well and some do it badly, but in every case you're breaking the gameplay and reducing the choice of the player to a binary action - press this button or fail and all because the developer wants to play at being director; that's what cut-scenes are for.

    Of course you'd see your character do something heroic such as jump off a cliff at the last second, grab and swing on a vine then land on the other side and think "Why couldn't I have controlled that?" hence QTEs. Word to developers if you need to have your character perform certain actions they wouldn't normally be able to and thus relegate them to cut-scene or a QTE then take a minute to think about the need of it again.

    To put it another way - think of the rescue of the Oracle in God of War if it were reduced to a QTE or cut-scene.

  • db3 #80 3 years ago

    Can't play anything outlined in black pen...reminds me of Red Steel

  • malmer #81 3 years ago

    Everything in this article just made me want the game more.I was worried this would be an other mindless button-masher with endless combos to remember like in a fighting game. Now it will instead be a game with strategy in the fights. I like that a lot. And the wall-running thing sounds great. Pre-ordered and done deal for me atleast.

  • malmer #82 3 years ago

    Or you could put it as joystiq did in their glowing hands on with the game:

    Nothing about the game feels canned, in fact. From our time with it, it was nothing but fresh. Yes, it's Prince of Persia – but the idealized game you always have in mind when the title's spoken. A balance of strong platforming, mild puzzles, and, in this case, a new (and, so far, much better) combat system. Do not, whatever you do, sign and seal your list of 2008's best games just yet – if the full experience bears out what we played in a little over an hour, you'll need the space for what could be a series' return to form (and then some).

  • pha #83 3 years ago

    What's with all the jumping around?

    Mirror's Edge

    Tomb Raider: Underworld

    and now this "painted" Prince of Persia

    All very PRETTY..... pretty boring actually!!

    Edited by 1 at 27/11/08 @ 16:05