E3: Project Natal

By Ellie Gibson Published 2 June, 2009

Milo, Ricochet and Burnout.

E3 2009 may not have officially kicked off yet, but it's already been a show to remember. After all, it's not every day you get to see the likes of James Cameron, Paul McCartney and Pele chatting about videogames. Nor is it every day you get to have a conversation with a virtual 10 year-old or play Burnout with an imaginary steering wheel.

But today is one of those days, because today Microsoft is revealing Project Natal to the world. Fresh from the E3 conference, we dropped by their posh hotel to go hands-on - or rather, hands-off - with the new technology.

Milo & Kate

First up is Peter Molyneux's new baby. As you'll know if you followed our live text, Milo is the name of the new AI character in development at Lionhead Studios. And as you'll know if you read our interview with Peter Molyneux, or could have predicted if you know anything about Peter Molyneux, Kate is the name of a dog.

'E3: Project Natal' Screenshot 1

A Lionhead man mucks about with Milo.

But the dog's not on show today - instead we're presented with Milo on his own, sitting on a swing by a river. Molyneux invites me to try interacting with him by standing in front of the screen and moving around the room.

As I move, the camera moves with me. Shift your body left and the camera pans left; tilt your body forwards and it zooms in, and so on. "Normally you'd be using the right thumbstick for this," observes Molyneux. It's a bit disconcerting, but in a good way; looking around to change your viewpoint feels a lot more natural than pushing a stick.

What about those who would rather stay sat on the sofa? The technology works just as well when sitting down, according to Molyneux: "You just move your torso and your head to move around. It can be a very relaxed experience."

Now, he says, we're going to train Milo to recognise me. I'm told to smile and frown to start the process off, and I try to make things easy for Milo by exaggerating my expressions like a gurning champion at a rave. "That's too much," says Molyneux. "You don't smile and frown like that in real life, do you?" He clearly hasn't seen my Facebook page.

I tone it down a bit and sure enough, Milo jumps off his swing and walks towards me. "You OK?" he says.

It's unnerving, there's no doubt about it. Instinctively I reply, "Yes, thank you. How are you?"

'E3: Project Natal' Screenshot 2

Claire again, Milo again. We want the dog. Show us the dog now.

"Wearing black, I see. It suits you." He's not wrong. About the first bit, anyway. But once the shock of Milo noticing this wears off, I realise he hasn't answered my question. Perhaps this is one of the tricks used to make you think he's real; and they are indeed tricks, as Molyneux is happy to admit.

I try another direct question. "Have you had a nice day, Milo?" He smiles and nods, so I go for something more complex. "Did you enjoy Microsoft's E3 conference?" He's non-committal. "Are you looking forward to the rumoured unveiling of the PSP tomorrow?" Milo nods. The truth is though, he doesn't really know what I just asked. He understood I was asking a question by listening to the tone of my voice, but he didn't understand the words. Knowing that doesn't make the whole thing much less unnerving, though.

Molyneux invites me to go and look at the fish in the river, as seen in the E3 press conference. The water effects are stunning anyway, but to see yourself reflected within them is astonishing. "Swish the water about a bit," says Molyneux, so I do. There are one or two odd moments where the water doesn't quite seem to flow naturally, but once again, the overall effect is highly impressive.

The demo's over, and all too soon. I didn't get to try out the work or play activities, or draw a picture for Milo, or meet his female counterpart, Milly. Not to mention the dog. There are still lots of questions about Milo & Kate, particularly with regard to how scripted the conversations are and just how clever your virtual friend really is. Here's hoping we'll get to find out more soon.

Ricochet

In the meantime, let's try out the tech demo titled Ricochet. This is the one Kudo Tsunoda unveiled during the press conference, and he's here to guide us through a playable demo.

The basic concept is that your character, shown as a translucent avatar, is standing in a tunnel. Endless waves of balls get chucked down the tunnel and you use your whole body to deflect them. You can perform kicks, headers and handballs, for example. Or, if you're as co-ordinated and graceful as me, you can flail wildly about, using everything from your elbows to your high heels to try to whack the balls back.

There's no denying there's a bit of lag between your movements and those of your on-screen avatar. However, the discrepancy is so tiny that it never feels like the lag has cost you a hit. In any case, playing Ricochet is immediately instinctive and enormous fun. In fact, I don't realise quite how much I'm getting into it until I hear Tsunoda warning a bloke behind me to stand back.

'E3: Project Natal' Screenshot 3

Punch dinosaurs! No wonder Spielberg likes it. He hates those f***ers.

Tsunoda is keen to point out this is just a tech demo, so don't expect to see Ricochet hitting Xbox Live Arcade any time soon. "But this is representative of all the kinds of things you could work into different games, both retail and Arcade," he says. "It's a creative toolset we provide so designers can build things however they want."

As with Milo & Kate, there are many more elements of the technology that have yet to be demonstrated. The potential for multiplayer games, for example, which Tsunoda assures us is there, and the option to play while sitting down. But the major breakthrough, he says, has been getting the camera to register how the entire skeletal system works. "That's something people have not yet been able to solve yet with this kind of technology," reckons Tsunoda. Eat that, EyeToy.

Burnout With An Invisible Steering Wheel

The other tech demo on show initially looks familiar. It's Burnout - the original Burnout, to be specific, for the original Xbox [Editor's note: it was actually a modified Burnout Paradise - apologies for the error!]. The difference is you can drive around without pressing a single button, or indeed without even touching a controller.

To accelerate, explains Project Natal director Alex Kipman, you just put your right leg forward. Bringing it back to the centre will put your car in neutral. To brake, you put your leg behind you. To steer, you hold up your hands as if holding a real wheel and twist.

'E3: Project Natal' Screenshot 4

Although we haven't got pics of the Burnout demo, the tech demo reel from Microsoft's conference throws up an equivalent.

According to Kipman, the game is running at 30fps. The camera is able to scan your entire body within five frames, so no complicated calibration is required. Within just a few seconds of taking my place in front of the screen, I am playing Burnout with my leg. As promised the car accelerates and brakes depending on whether I'm stepping forwards or backwards. Again, there's only the tiniest bit of lag, and the overall level of responsiveness is highly impressive.

The steering is slightly more complicated. My first instinct is to twist my imaginary steering wheel like a six year-old, but predictably this sends me careering into walls and over cliffs. "Trust in the device," says Kipman, like some kind of Jedi of futuristic invisible technology. He shows how only gentle turns are required to steer the car and soon I'm cruising round corners with ease. It helps that there don't appear to be any other cars on the road, mind.

Would you really want to hold up an imaginary steering wheel for the length of an entire game? It's difficult to know the answer with such a short demo and in such controlled conditions. However, there's no denying this technology works. Twist your imaginary steering wheel left, and the car goes left. Step backwards, and you brake. It's responsive and it's intuitive. And this is just the start, reckons Kipman.

"If I was doing a game from scratch I would have done a wider array of gestures," he says, suggesting you might be able to push the imaginary steering wheel forwards to go faster, for example. "This graph on top of the game, we just did it in a few days. It's very simple and there's not a lot to it as it's just a proof of concept. If I was designing a brand new racing game from scratch, which is what we will be doing with Natal, I could be doing any number of things to control the car."

Even an ancient game seems new and fresh when you graph Project Natal on top. It looks like Burnout, it plays like Burnout, but it doesn't feel like Burnout. Again, it's hard to make final judgments within such a short amount of time, and with only two tech demos and a single game to go on. But I walked away from my first hands-on session with Project Natal wanting to see more, and that has to be a good thing.

Picture of Ellie.

About Ellie Gibson

Since joining Eurogamer in the mid 2000s, Ellie has written about subjects as diverse as the fall of Gizmondo, the rise of Hollyoaks actresses in Red Alert games and the noise a bear makes under NSFW circumstances.

Read more articles from Ellie by visiting the Ellie Gibson archive page.

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Comments (138) Latest comment 2 years ago

Comments threads automatically close after 30 days, but please feel free to continue chatting on the forum!

  • Collymilad #1 3 years ago

    Lol @ Wii

  • bigjimbeef #2 3 years ago

    Glad to see that it actually does work from an external source. I suppose I should really hold off getting too excited about it, but it does look rather exciting. What with this and Google Wave, the future all appears to be coming at once!

    Unless they're rubbish of course. Hard to tell really.

    Oh yeah, and is Milo just a tech demo too? Not sure why I'd want a child simulator really..

  • Monkey_Puncher #3 3 years ago

    Sounds interesting, Milo is just damn freaky though.

  • Eighthours #4 3 years ago

    Motion Plus is going to look a bit old hat at the Ninty conference, methinks.

  • Lukree #5 3 years ago

    Project Anal

  • GreyBeard #6 3 years ago

    "Would you really want to hold up an imaginary steering wheel for the length of an entire game?"

    NO. Obviously.

    The only point to any of this is doing large, free-flowing movements. Why would anyone want to pantomime actions that can be achieved more simply and directly using the kind of small-muscle movements that a conventional controller allows?

  • Razzajazz #7 3 years ago

    If the reliably and relentlessly cynical Ellie (that's meant as a compliment, btw!) is impressed, then I already have a little bit more hope about Natal's potential. Still don't think it's going to be quite as amazing as MS are trying to make out, though.

  • Yossarian #8 3 years ago

    Article should be called a 'hands-off'.

  • JohnnyWashnGo #9 3 years ago

    Is the person in the last picture on page 2 holding a dildo?

  • Madafunkola #10 3 years ago

    I can't see myself leaping around the room playing tennis - that's why I sold my Wii - but the technology looks fantastic. I'd get one just to gesture-navigate the dashboard, minority report stylee!

  • Sonic_D #11 3 years ago

    Blimey if this really works and they actually make some games that are fun to play for extended periods Microsoft might just smack Wii's bitch up.

  • miiiguel #12 3 years ago

    Minority Report. It's happening.

  • CapnCloudchaser #13 3 years ago

    I would say that the movement element that technology such as this presents will appeal to the obese western world, i.e non-gamers and casual games will lap it up.

    However, a lot of imagination and creativity is going to be needed in order to win over the other side, obviously! But I really think it offers a lot of potential if the technology is really that good. I mean, these things were cooked up pretty quickly, imagine what a few years of development time could create?

  • GundamJehutyKai #14 3 years ago

    I'm still not convinced that the system is the leap forward they claim it to be. I keep thinking back to LIPS and how they promised massive technological advances compared to singstar, only for most of them to fall flat and the game itself being a little naff!

    I could be wrong, and in many ways, nintendo should be looking over their shoulder but I don't see anything which eyetoy couldn't do, except for the driving (but who wants to float their arms like that for extended periods of time?).

  • Eraysor #15 3 years ago

    The major positive to come out of this, regardless of how Natal might be applied to good games, is that the Wii is royally fucked.

  • spekkeh #16 3 years ago

    I noticed britishgaming are also reporting on the lag being a problem in some of the demos, hope they clear it up or its gonna be a game breaker.

    It's pretty impossible really to clear this up, because your body is constantly making little movements. The motion sensing software will have to accommodate for this and even then the game has to know when you're trying to get into position, or actually making a movement that should be recognized as input for the game. The wii already suffers from this somewhat, but it's easier to keep a wiimote still while moving the rest of your body, and you can always make it so you have to press a button for the game to register it as movement input.

    Milo is an interesting tech demo, but you're not going to be able to make a real game out of it. The only thing I can see this tech really working is tracking head and pupil movements to change the camera (although that might give problems when you want to look away from the screen to grab a drink, but yeah), as well as tracking the facial expression of the player to get their affective responses and changing the game accordingly.

  • stampax #17 3 years ago

    Im buying an xbox for this - just give me a release date! My money awaits you sir!

  • spekkeh #18 3 years ago

    The major positive to come out of this, regardless of how Natal might be applied to good games, is that the Wii is royally fucked.

    So much wishful thinking. The xbox 360 is a gaming console and will not appeal to non-gamers. Even with this peripheral. Especially because it's a peripheral. The Wii is a gadget, the whole Wii brand revolves around motion control, and the general public knows this. Small nuance HUGE difference.

  • Domovoi #19 3 years ago

    Sounds great. I would've figured that it makesmore sense to break by putting your left foot forward, but I guess that's because Burnout was designed for a traditional controller. With a stick you can't pull it back and push it forward at the same time, while you can put both legs forward at the same time, so they probably wanted to avoid that situation since the game doesn't provide for simultanious braking and accelerating.

  • Domovoi #20 3 years ago

    "Would you really want to hold up an imaginary steering wheel for the length of an entire game?"

    NO. Obviously

    So why is Mario Kart for the Wii such a success then?

  • Eraysor #21 3 years ago

    I dare to dream ^_^

  • spekkeh #22 3 years ago

    So why is Mario Kart for the Wii such a success then?

    Cause it's not imaginary. Well, not entirely. Interacting with a real life object (i.e. the wiimote) and seeing the virtual counterpart move accordingly breaks the fourth wall, as it gives the player the impression of being inside the game world. This is EXACTLY the reason (well, that and the hip gadget connotation I wrote about above, and the fact that the wiimote is shaped like a remote) why the Wii has been so successful, and this will not.

  • Metalfish #23 3 years ago

    Graph? You mean graft, right?

  • CaptianScarlet #24 3 years ago

    Looks like an interesting technology, there are loads of applications I could see being cool. Very mini game like though. This to me seems to be a very close if slightly more advanced cousin of the Eye toy.

    However, as for Milo. seriously could that have been any more scripted. I think that it's a nice "tech" demo to show what could be possible but seriously I already have 2 kids why would I want to spend any time with a virtual one. Let's face it if you look closely at the supposed conversation system in Fable 2 and remember the limited and rather uninspired responses it's hard to believe that they could accomplish anything that comes close to the "futuristic" AI buddy that Molyneux waffles on about being ahead of anything a science fiction author/film maker has ever imagined. Seriously has that guy watch a sc-fi film or read any sci-fi books. they are awash with artificial friends and computer interactive characters. The guy should just shut up and let the tech do his talking.

    sorry went off on a bit of a rant there, but really!

  • Negotiator #25 3 years ago

    Amazing, and this will only get better, Microsoft have raised the bar and Sony and Nintendo won't be able to jump it.

  • patchbox360 #26 3 years ago

    that girls wonderous ass kept distracting me from listening to what was going on with milo

  • Domovoi #27 3 years ago

    Cause it's not imaginary. Well, not entirely. Interacting with a real life object (i.e. the wiimote) and seeing the virtual counterpart move accordingly breaks the fourth wall, as it gives the player the impression of being inside the game world. This is EXACTLY the reason (well, that and the hip gadget connotation I wrote about above, and the fact that the wiimote is shaped like a remote) why the Wii has been so successful, and this will not

    So holding a physical object up won't make your arms tired, but an imaginary one will?

    And what's to stop you from simply holdin up a wheel, or a plate for that matter with Natal? Besides, the whole 'seeing the virtual counterpart move accordingly breaking the fourth wall' applies just as well to this. Holding a plastic wheel isn't as important to immersiveness as you make it out to be.

  • Toothball #28 3 years ago

    The Burnout demo looks like interesting technology, but using an actual steering wheel is still going to be a far better experience. Force feedback really adds a lot more to the experience, and pedals sound way better than moving your feet around.

  • spekkeh #29 3 years ago

    Ah I thought you meant that holding up an imaginary wheel would just feel plain stupid. Yeah your arms will get tired regardless. But personally I do think holding on to a real object is important, because, like I said, flailing your arms in empty space to get something on screen to work feels really stupid (at least when I tried the eyetoy) and the wiimote seemed to overcome this. But of course time will tell.

  • axman303 #30 3 years ago

    @spekkeh You spekkehth the truth. Can't see this being a hit, maybe EyeToy level of popularity and then fade from view. Two problems are: 1. nothing to hold onto is going to make you feel way more of a prat that you do with the various Wi attachementsi, 2. innacuracy: there's no way this thing will ever be as accurate at monitoring motion as a physically held device.

  • Xerx3s #31 3 years ago

    That ubisoft RTS voice game would work a shitload better with this I reckon.

  • BOFH_UK #32 3 years ago

    I think it's worth people considering this as an additional element to current games. The obvious example would be replacing dialogue selection in games like Fallout 3 and Mass Effect with something a little more interactive but it's far from the only possible use. Puzzle elemenets can obviously take on a whole new direction, stealth games would be a good match as would driving games (track your head to change the view when inside the car).

    Maybe think of it as the touchscreen on the DS. Can be used on its own for some games / genres but works best when combined with regular controls.

  • neonxaos #33 3 years ago

    I'm sorry, but all this waving of extremities is meaningless to me. So you can control Burnout with your feet - but there's a damn table there in my living room. Do I need to rearrange everything just to play a videogame now? It's already a pain to drag out the World Tour drum kit for GH, but now they want me to move things around in order to play normal games too?

    I guess I'm getting old.

    Honestly, I'm all for the idea of bringing excercise and physical interactivity to video games, but developers need to use this technology wisely. I am not interested in imaginary steering wheels, golf clubs or tennis rackets when it is obvious that an actual controller does the job far better. That's the problem with so many Wii games - the idea that because the technology is there, all games must employ it.

    However, conversations with AI characters... now that's something else. Spooky, but definitely interesting.

  • Spekingur #34 3 years ago

    Am I the only one thinking that Natal and RUSE might make an awesome combination?

    The next thing from MS will be forcefields - ala Star Trek.

  • NorUraeus #35 3 years ago

    Not sure I am convinced this is anything new here from what Sony is already doing with the EyeToy, that pet dog application Sony is working on seems very similar to what M$ is touting here with the addition of some basic voice recognition software.

    Also I think this will have the same problems that the EyeToy got in peoples homes, that it becomes very error prone when light conditions are not perfect.

  • dr_faulk #36 3 years ago

    WMP = too little, too late?

    All the arguments for and againt the Wiimote will be rehashed in some shape or form for this technology, but ultimately, I'm extremely impressed that Microsoft has come up with a new, rivalling technology that works.

  • dr_faulk #37 3 years ago

    Also, quids-in on Mad Catz elbow-rest accessory to be relased for this.

  • MENTAL1ST Verified Senior Software Engineer, Picsel UK Ltd. #38 3 years ago

    The fact it's a traffic-free Burnout 1 rather than Burnout Paradise makes me worry that the processing overheads of this device mean it'll be relegated to the ghetto of casual minigames rather than for enhancing AAA core games.

    Still, that Ricochet demo looks fun enough to buy it for to me (unless it's like more than 100 quid). And if Speilberg puts EA's money where his mouth is and puts out a Natal-tailored Boom Blox, then I'm sold even more so.

  • MORZTAN #39 3 years ago

    @ Negotiator

    "Amazing, and this will only get better, Microsoft have raised the bar and Sony and Nintendo won't be able to jump it."

    Actually, Nintendo will be showing of their camera, developed by UBISOFT, today, and it will be released come this holiday season.

    So MS will look pretty much like copy-cats when Natal launches.

    http://n-club.dk/nyhed er/4538/

  • Gaol #40 3 years ago

    This is the lamest lot of crap I've seen from a major developer in years.

    The Milo thing is a lot of hot air and the new 'controller' is just Eye Toy 2. Who wants to play Burnout with an imaginary steering wheel?? As one of the forum guys put it, there's no feedback.

    Add this to the fact that the Wii has already penetrated the casual market and it's not ready for another retarded gimmick.

    This lot will crash and burn.

    MS would do well to stick to the games they showed and the ever expanding online/media functionality.

  • Gazza_UK #41 3 years ago

    The Devil's hands have been busy

  • persus-9 #42 3 years ago

    If the lag is okish in a racer than it should be workable in less twitch demanding games, Fable 3 for instance, it'll be so cool to finally be able cast spell the way spells are ment to be cast! In fact if they get this technology full implimented in Fable 3 then that game is going to rock! Being able to make faces at the NPCs will just be so much better than the button-stick-button emote system. Also the Wii fit and Wii sports clones that they'll be able to make are going to blow the Wii right out the water from technical and gameplay perspectives. The Wii will still sell like hotcakes though, you can't beat that kind of social hypemachine just by making a better product.

  • IronCladChicken #43 3 years ago

    @Domovoi
    So holding a physical object up won't make your arms tired, but an imaginary one will?
    You don;t newed to hold your arms up for the wii controller - it works be sensing the movement of the Wii-mote.
    The M$ version requires you hold your arms up so the camera can see what you're up to :)

    So essentially - All the M$ guys here are getting excited over features they were bashing the Wii for up until now?

  • bdgr #44 3 years ago

    I can just imagine tho - there you are onthe latest game racking up a decent score/just about to kill the end of level boss/whatever, when youir mum/brother/missus/housemate/whoever just happens to walk in front of you - and f***s up your whole game!

  • Dizzy #45 3 years ago

    "Actually, Nintendo will be showing of their camera, developed by UBISOFT, today, and it will be released come this holiday season. "

    The Wii does not have the computing power to do all of this. Also the Wii camera is not a "3D" camera.
    Edited by 1 at 02/06/09 @ 13:24

  • kangarootoo #46 3 years ago

    A good article. More of this sort of thing from Ellie.



    "The major positive to come out of this, regardless of how Natal might be applied to good games, is that the Wii is royally fucked."

    Complete, utter, unbridled nonsense.


    "So holding a physical object up won't make your arms tired, but an imaginary one will?"

    If you try and describe it in such artificially black and white terms, no doubt you will make a point of some sort. Buts its not that straight forward.

    Supporting a light RIGID physical object allows your limbs to use each other as struts. The overall system is more stable, so less effort is required to KEEP it stable. Two limbs flailing in the air whilst TRYING to maintain a posture relative to each other will be more tiring (if all else remains the same).

    Experiment. Wave your two arms around your body whilst trying to keep your hands 12 inches apart. Then repeat the same process whilst holding a 12 inch ruler between them. Which was more tiring?

  • oktava #47 3 years ago

    I like joypads. I like sitting. Call me oldfashioned but if I want to move around I go outside.

  • Batfink #48 3 years ago

    Hands up who has their TV at a comfortable level to stand in front of? If milo comes to the front of my TV and wants to high five, I'm going to have to get down on my knees.

  • skillian #49 3 years ago

    So basically, Ellie asked 'Milo' three questions, all of which it replied to with a generic yes/no answer.

    We are a few years away from I, Robot then.

  • milky_09 #50 3 years ago

    perfect for people with no real friends.

  • lavalant #51 3 years ago

    @IronClad I think you and a lot of people here miss the point here, they watch a tech demo of a guy racing with NATAL and say "OMG u have to hold your arms out FAIL" when it's simply demonstrating what the NATAL hardware can do not demonstrating the software. I doubt we will ever see a racing game that uses NATAL

    So far the hardware is far more impressive than Wii, and I can see developers really doing some great stuff with NATAL, rather than the tacked on motion control gimmicks that have plagued the Wii.

  • MORZTAN #52 3 years ago

    "The Wii does not have the computing power to do all of this. Also the Wii camera is not a "3D" camera."

    I know that. Still, Nintendos camera will be out sooner, and the worlds eyes are still glued to the Wii. They will sell millions again, and the casuals interest in Natal will fade to nothing.

    Why would they want what they already got? Try explaining the 360s computing power to a casual.

    ... just guessing.

  • jambo74 #53 3 years ago

    It's just a matter of time...

    then you'll not need them at all!

    Muhuhuhuhoohoohoohuhuhuhu..u....u...ah!!


  • JonesW #54 3 years ago

    Things like Milo really interest me because its so different, but playing a conventonal game like Burnout with no tactile feedback from a standard controller-type-device (be it a pad or steering wheel) may be too obscure for me I'm afraid.

  • semtex03 #55 3 years ago

    Article does win best photo caption award for:

    "Punch dinosaurs! No wonder Spielberg likes it. He hates those f***ers."

    This (Natal hoo ha) is more impressive than the Sony eyePet thing that is due by the end of the year. Whatever, it all adds more to the interactive element of games...we'll just have to see how creative the developers are and whether they are given enough time and chances to make it work.

  • Killerbee #56 3 years ago

    Milo sounds a bit crap, but the camera technology is certainly impressive.

    I was initially pretty sceptical, but then so I was about the Wii and that (mostly) works. Driving with an imaginary steering wheel though... I think I'd actually rather have something like the plastic Mario Kart Wheel in my hands - something tactile I can actually hold and feel in control of.

    I mean, there's no way anyone would ever make a real car drive like this because the moment you take your hand off the invisible wheel to scratch your nose, you find you've inadvertently shifted gear and accelerated into a bus queue full of pensioners and unemployed people.

    And this "looking around to change your viewpoint" - wonderful in theory... oh, but hang on, my TV isn't going to move anywhere so as soon as I turn my head left to look left I'm no longer looking at my TV, am I...?
    Edited by 1 at 02/06/09 @ 13:45

  • spidermanalf #57 3 years ago

    [link url= http://www.us.playstation.com/News/PressReleases/173
    ]http://ww w.us.playstation.com/News/Press...[/link]

    Well Sony say they sold over 3million eye toys worldwide, thats not bad going for a gimmiky thing!

  • TheJuriel #58 3 years ago

    Gimmick. But a fun one.

  • kangarootoo #59 3 years ago

    "This (Natal hoo ha) is more impressive than the Sony eyePet thing that is due by the end of the year."

    The cynica in me can't help thinking there might be a very good reason why it sounds more impressive. Equally, if I told you I could bench press 5 tonnes (and showed you a video of me doing it) you might be impressed too.


    Here is my take on this vid after thinking about it. We keep harping on about whether it can do what it says it can do.... but the crucial part missing from the puzzle is that we haven't properly defined what IT is.

    PM himself has said it can't recognise proper speech, and yet he showed us a video where a full conversation took place. What was NOT demonstrated was the sort of experience Ellie had when interacting with the software. Why demonstrate something that you then go on to basically say doesn't work? Because it looks better than what actually happens perhaps?


    The real question we should all be asking is "if I sit down with this software and I DON'T want to talk about Milo's homework", what will my experience be? Again, PM himself has said it won't really be anything like what we saw in the video. If I ask Milo what food he likes to eat, what will he say in response? Will he just nod back at me?

    All this discussion and argument about whether it can really do what it says it can.... and it isn't really even saying it can do what you all seem to think it is. The devil here is very much in the detail.

  • IronGiant #60 3 years ago

    Honestly this looks crap! Who really wants to play games without actually holding or touching anything, you don't drive a real car without holding something!! at least the Wii-mote and normal controllers let you 'feel' what you're doing.. It's not different enough from the EyeToy or the Wii to be a huge success, it looks like and is a gimmick that MS will continue to throw money at. I can't see Sony coming up with anything better and Nintendo will continue to refine the Wii. At best this will convince a decent amount of 360 owners to buy it, it's certainly not gonna make any impression on Wii sales.

  • Ryuken #61 3 years ago

    tricks and lag.

  • stevetuck #62 3 years ago

    Heh that ubisoft wii camera looks pretty much the same as the microsoft one :)

  • karstux #63 3 years ago

    Two words: lightsaber game. If this Natal thingie can't do it, nothing ever will.

  • peterfll #64 3 years ago

    I dread to think what some people will try and do with a virtual boy using this sort of technology. Someone call The Daily Mail now.

  • MENTAL1ST Verified Senior Software Engineer, Picsel UK Ltd. #65 3 years ago

    What was NOT demonstrated was the sort of experience Ellie had when interacting with the software

    Actually, it was (unless you're talking about Milo). In the conference itself (rather than the Wii-unveiling style contrived family fun showreel) Kudo Tsunoda demonstrated the full body motion capture stuff (which wasn't perfect, but was a damn sight better than the likes of Eyetoy or You're In The Movies), and we saw some woman playing Ricochet, which looked pretty much as Ellie described it. They didn't show the Burnout thing, though.

  • Razz #66 3 years ago

    ""Trust in the device," says Kipman, like some kind of Jedi of futuristic invisible technology."

    :'D Daymn, the woman is just too funneh

  • mcmonkeyplc #67 3 years ago

    I see the usual fanboys have taken the stance of their respective consoles.

    Good to see things dont change, just controllers.

  • Dizzy #68 3 years ago

    "I know that. Still, Nintendos camera will be out sooner, and the worlds eyes are still glued to the Wii. They will sell millions again, and the casuals interest in Natal will fade to nothing. "

    Yes.. true.. MS have a long way to go to convince the casual world. They build it... now devs will need to make some killer apps. TBH if they can get some special Wii-games as cross platform (something like Wii-fit for example) on the 360 that already will look good, especially since the 360 version will look much better. I think it will be a long hard fight that won't really start to heat up until next gen.

    Anyway.. MS had plenty of other stuff (facebook is a huge announcement... 200 million potential people that will see what you are doing on Live) so this is all part of a very wide strategy. Will they succeed? No idea.. but they seem to be going slowly after the Wii after leaving the PS3 behind. A logical course of action I would say.

    "At best this will convince a decent amount of 360 owners to buy it, it's certainly not gonna make any impression on Wii sales. "

    If this works like in those movies and people see it when they walk into a friends house the Wii will indeed be toast almost guaranteed. But that will take some time... they are not ready with this yet. I expect this mid next year.
    Edited by 1 at 02/06/09 @ 14:48

  • MORZTAN #69 3 years ago

    I have now seen the Milo footage yet again.

    It is the biggest bluff in videogame history. There is not a shred of AI in that piece of shit. People believing that the final software will be even remotely resembling the PM-demo-reel with Clare, are in for a big, big disappointment.

    I can't stand Peter sitting there spouting nonsense! "It's here today, and it works!" The hell it does!!

    Milo is an advanced Nintendog.

    I´m getting all worked up now, but MAN! That Peter M. really is full of crap. And lying his nonsensical ass of in front of thousands of people.

    / "Thousands of people?"

    OH FUCK OF MILO!!!
    Edited by 1 at 02/06/09 @ 15:01

  • General_Zod #70 3 years ago

    Oh so now that Microsoft is doing motion control its now amazing? I thought people would have learned from the Wii that what you see in adverts and press conferences does not actually match up to what you really experience.

  • gourry #71 3 years ago

    the inevitable sex simulator moves that little bit closer to reality.....

  • MORZTAN #72 3 years ago

    Excactly mr. Zod!

  • Dizzy #73 3 years ago

    "It is the biggest bluff in videogame history. There is not a shred of AI in that piece of shit. People believing that the final software will be even remotely resembling the PM-demo-reel with Clare"

    Did you actually read that the EG people could "play" this tech demo as well. Everything seems to point out that the tech is working more or less as advertised.

  • autogunner #74 3 years ago

    i reckon head movements wil be more important when this tech takes off. after all you can move your head around all the time in games, i find myself doing it, and you rarely feel tired afterwards.

  • miiiguel #75 3 years ago

    Navigating through the dashboard via motion sensing and voice controll looks pretty cool. In games it might be fun, but it'll depend mainly on the software and how they will implement the technology, I don't think I'd like to play Burnout with this stuff.

    Then again, Wii "problem" is not (for me) the technology, it's its software. 360, at least has the possibility of using this as a fun gimmick to play every now and then, and the "real thing" (aka "proper controlls";) - a bit like "sixaxis", but with 21st century tech.
    Edited by 2 at 02/06/09 @ 15:20

  • oerhoert #76 3 years ago

    <em>"i reckon head movements wil be more important when this tech takes off. after all you can move your head around all the time in games, i find myself doing it, and you rarely feel tired afterwards."</em>

    Good point. It will be compatible with using the old-style controller as well, making games such as FPSs more interactive.

    I have faith in the technology, but it seems Microsoft doesn't really know what to do with it except copy Nintendo.

  • Toothball #77 3 years ago

    @gourry:

    the inevitable sex simulator moves that little bit closer to reality.....

    If they made that, it would be the last peripheral-based game they'd ever have to release. Except if Activision made it.

  • MORZTAN #78 3 years ago

    @ Dizzy

    Indeed. I read everything that is popping up everywhere. How could I not? It´s E3! It´s Christmas!!

    The thing is, the PM-video shows Milo as something you can walk up to and do practically anything with, ask anything. Ellie reveals in the interview that this is indeed not the case. And PM (I call him PM cause I can't seem to spell his last name) admits, that of course it can do everything. It's tricks.

    The final outcome of Milo, and everything Natal, will be extremely limited, and thousands of people will be utterly dissappointed!

    /"Thousands of..?"

    HUSH MILO!!

    Try watcing the Milo footage again. It's sickening.

  • TheBoyChris #79 3 years ago

    IT'S A MURDER SIMULATOR

  • peak_performance #80 3 years ago

    The tech seems amazing, but for "real" games (that are not 3D Breakout or chatbots) the use will probably be limited to an ordinary TrackIR.

    Which is really fine, by the way, but don't make a steed out of a mule. The Wiimote doubles as an ordinary controller as well so it can be used in regular games (as proven), with some additional motion features (that will hopefully work better with M+). This basically brings some possible motions for the 360 game library (but control systems most likely can't depend on them as it's not a system standard), if you want to act out in a game as in that movie you're just as big a turd as those who want 1:1 light saber motions on the Wii.

    Oh, the Wiimote has a pointer as well.


    tl;dr: It's not a fucking gaming revolution - though the tech is amazing. Morons.

  • Dizzy #81 3 years ago

    "The thing is, the PM-video shows Milo as something you can walk up to and do practically anything with, ask anything"

    It is not advertised as that. We all know that true AI is not possible since computing power is way to weak.

    The demo is obviously a proof of concept for stuff the guys will use in Fable 3 and other projects. "Talking" with NPcs and such. AI can be quite good in these cases because it can be limited to a certain subset of things it wants to talk about. You are not going to talk with a Fable 3 NPC about E3 or the invasion of China (in 2012) ;) You are going to talk about where that magic sword is. This kind of stuff can work pretty well... imagine the NPC scenes of Mass Effect like this. Could be great ;)

    I am not sure if the Milo will ever become a real game... if they wanted to make a real game they should probably have picked a less real character like some weird alien or a robot.

    I work a lot with touch screen UIs in my current projects and I wish my big ass TV had some screen touching features TBH. Natural UIs are so much more logical once you start using them. This whole MS thing is just the start... ofc it won't work as good as advertised, but hopefully it will start the revolution of consumer device UIs (arguably the Wii started that). This could well end up in TVs and such in the future.
    Edited by 3 at 02/06/09 @ 15:33

  • teabagger #82 3 years ago

    I think this represents some initial steps into exciting territory. The big problem with games has always been the emotional disconnection between player and game-world, something that Peter/Lionhead have recognised and been trying to tackle for a while now.

    Say what you like about the guys, but they've got vision.

  • ronuds #83 3 years ago

    Think outside the tiny box you're trapped in people. Think of all the different ways in which something like Milo could be implemented - not just as a freaky AI friend who thinks you're great.

    Think of an RPG or FPS where you have an AI friend that tags along. Sure, they won't be able to understand every single thing you say, but I'd bet they're programmed with a wide array of recognizable commands - which make sense in regards to the game type. MS is ahead of the game in voice recognition due to their Synch technology.

  • Stuz359 #84 3 years ago

    Just the point I was about to make Dizzy. It would be a really cool way of interacting with NPC's in RPG's. Could even add new elements to interacting with them, the way you ask a question, If you shout, can you scare them into giving you info? Just an example

  • peak_performance #85 3 years ago

    and what would that companion bring except a few minutes of gimmick value

    edit: why does everybody want to act like turds when they're playing regular games
    Edited by 1 at 02/06/09 @ 15:36

  • Negotiator #86 3 years ago

    Its full 3D body motion control, nothing from Sony or Nintendo comes close to it, its on a different level. A 2D camera cannot do what this can do, meaning its very basic, like comparing an old disney cartoon with the latest Pixar. Plus throw in face and voice recognition and what you have is the dream every gamer has had, full body motion control with no limits, only yourself. I remember before the Wii game out and Nintendo were saying they would change the way people play games, with a new type of controller. I said the only way I would be interested is if you could put on a full body suit and play the game using your entire body, well guess what Microsoft have none that, except you don't need the suit.

  • ronuds #87 3 years ago

    "a few minutes of gimmick value"

    LOL

    We've reduced gamers' 30-year wish into this comment?

  • kangarootoo #88 3 years ago

    @Mentalist(air)

    Ah, sorry. I WAS talking about Milo. Milo is the only part of the whole Natal thing that I am suspicious of. The rest of it is just a potential control system, and the quality of that really depends on how wel it is utilised within any given title.

  • peak_performance #89 3 years ago

    You didn't actually answer my question there. What of value WOULD it bring to the game?

  • phantom516 #90 3 years ago

    Sounds great for moving around the menus, choosing movies etc, but with the exception of wii type excersise games I don't personally see any great appeal.

  • ronuds #91 3 years ago

    I'm sure an in-game companion would make a lot of people happy. Like, imagine if in a game like COD if you could actually interact with the commanding officers rather than just taking orders from them. Or you could yell to your wingman to cover your flank, etc., etc. There are a whole bunch of ways this could be utilised which would "bring value" to gaming.

    But it's like anything - it's only good or "valuable" if the people implementing it do a good enough job. I think dismissing this completely and saying it couldn't possibly bring any value to games is being rather shortsighted.

  • MORZTAN #92 3 years ago

    @ The Negotiator

    Either you are a MS-employee hyping Natal (in every thread on Eurogamer), or you will be the most disappointed human being on Earth once it launches.

    I think that you have way to high expectations, something a lot of people had when Wii first was announced.

    Consider yourself warned. Natal is not what MS tries to tell you it is...
    Edited by 1 at 02/06/09 @ 15:55

  • Darren #93 3 years ago

    The Milo demo isn't just about advanced A.I. though, it shows a whole new way of interacting with a game character in the form of gesture controls, facial and voice recognition. Together they offer a more realistic and natural way of interating with a game and could pave the way for a future where controllers are unnecessary, or at least optional.

    It's quite exciting really, far more so than anything Nintendo have offered to date on the Wii, which for me has been a constant disappointment since the release of Super Smash Bros. Brawl last June. Nintendo wanted more people to play games by simplifying the controller, Microsoft have come up with a way of not even needing a controller! What could be simpler than natural gestures and motions? Milo may be a clever illusion but there's no doubt that gesture controls are cool and seemed to work as far as the dashboard is concerned so that's the user interface sorted. It may not be suited to all game types though - how would you turn and move around in a first person shooter for example - and holding an imaginary steering wheel for racing games looks well naff IMO but for many other games, the ones that seem to appeal to the masses, it would be great when combined with the facial and voice recognition features.

  • Widge #94 3 years ago

    but that's what we do on here! Someone announces something, we LOL in its face.
    Until 'our' company demos the same thing the following year when it becomes the next big thing in gaming.

  • Widge #95 3 years ago

    This new thumbnail is frightening.... amend please!

  • Bloodhunter #96 3 years ago

    motion plus is going to be alot cheaper i think though

    i wonder how much this technology will cost? about as much if not more than a whole 360 methinks...

  • jools #97 3 years ago

    I'm going to wait and see. That's all you can do with stuff like this, no point getting worked up about it. If it's good it benefits us gamers and if not it'll sink. What's the problem?

  • Widge #98 3 years ago

    Its a camera. It can't cost that much can it?

  • peak_performance #99 3 years ago

    @ronuds
    I'm not good at getting points across shortly (or at all, sometimes), but I'll try to explain what I feel (in a less trollish way).

    First of all, I'm not dismissing the idea of Natal contributing in some ways - I mentioned TrackIR in my first post, it could be great for that sort of thing for instance. For extra clarity they could probably bundle a LED light or something to tie to your head, if needed.

    But for other purposes, what would it do? Game programming hasn't taken a quantum leap forward just because this springs into action. It's not as if, suddenly, we will be able to interact with NPC:s in any more detailed ways than before, just in another way. We'll neither see NPC:s as advanced as Milo in quite a while (I'd wager at least two generations), outside of tech demos.

    But even if it can be done one (or at least I) must ask oneself if it would be better for the game. Obviously, the Wiimote isn't perfect, but I think that the system has proved that the more restrained the use of "gimmicky control" is, the better effect it has. Look at No More Heroes, which uses the motion just for finishers. They feel a lot better to do if you don't do them all the time. And even then, most of the time the motions aren't that big because it feels better to play a game leisurely (though sometimes it's fun to swing fully for dramatic effect :) ).

    Now: Natal. Obviously most "ordinary" games will still need a real controller, which at least for this gen is the standard 360 one, that in itself will hinder "fluent" transitions between motions and standard control (remember, the Wiimote is a controller as well as motion tracker). So what can be done? I'm not stupid enough to believe no one can come up with some cool stuff, but mostly it must be weighed against how it would be handled with an ordinary control. Choosing dialog options in RPGs? Mass Effect has proven it can be done in an instant. Telling your wingmen to cover the flank? Most games could handle it in a few button presses and you won't have to speak to your console.

    Mostly everything that people has mentioned can be done with Natal leaves me with the question: Why should it, when it would be easier and probably faster not to? That's where my comments about "gimmicks" come from.

    Though I did come up with something that would be VERY cool in a tactical shooter with Natal, aside from TrackIR: Signaling commands with your hands :)


    Yeah, I couldn't keep it short, hopefully it's fine anyway :) And obviously there will come games that make good use of it, but it's not a replacement for a controller and it's not a video game revolution - which is what I'm objecting to. Just incredible technology, which is fine in itself.

  • coomber #100 3 years ago

    Reinventing the Wiil.

  • ronuds #101 3 years ago

    @ peak

    I wasn't saying it was a revolution either - or a complete replacement of the controller. In fact, I'd hate for this to completely replace the controller. I'm a lazy ass! :p

    But there is certainly some wild stuff that can come from it, which could be tacked on to a game using the conventional controller, or one in which no controller at all is necessary. It has potential, it just depends on if anyone takes advantage of it. And like I said earlier, MS is ahead of the game in terms of voice command recognition, so what may have taken Ninty or Sony 3 years to fully implement, may take MS 1 or 2.

    For the Milo thing, it all comes down to how many commands you program the AI with. Once the software is established, it can be used in many different places.

  • MeBrains #102 3 years ago

    it does seem to work better already than I would have expected by going through the conf notes yesterday...

    something to watch then - though sony started it with eyetoy. Which makes me wonder if there's gonna be a patent war about it.

  • Widge #103 3 years ago

    I know. Especially with them doing the entire body recognition thing last year and all.

  • MENTAL1ST Verified Senior Software Engineer, Picsel UK Ltd. #104 3 years ago

    i wonder how much this technology will cost?

    Previous trade-show boasts from the company that developed the hardware say "sub $100". Which will probably end up being equivalent to the cost of a wii balance board, 60 or 70 quid, I'd imagine, with a game thrown in.

    Its a camera. It can't cost that much can it?

    It's an HD webcam, an infra-red 'depth' camera, a light source for the IR cam, a microphone and some processing capability, I believe.

  • peak_performance #105 3 years ago

    @ronuds, yeah, my comment wasn't especially aimed at you, but at what I've heard since yesterday :p But Natal is obviously not the straight comparison to the Wiimote that people make it out to be, which irks me quite a lot. And yeah, the voice recognition was fine, but I don't really want to play games with my voice either and can't imagine everyone wanting to do that, at least not as a standard in games. TC's End War did it I guess, but it looked very simplified compared to what can be done with standard controls - not to mention a mouse and keyboard combo :p

    I've already been over many of these gimmicks in my time with the DS and the Wii, and the straiter the controls, the better the game is the rule so far. Don't see any reason Natal will be any different, though it's fun in some sense to see lot's of Xbox owners crying for these things, putting in lots of misguided shots at Nintendo and the Wii at the time, without having seen a single real game use it.

  • GreyBeard #106 3 years ago

    The speech recognition aspect is just a bolt-on to the camera technology MS acquired when they bought 3DV.
    Its a separate technology and not proprietary, which is why they undersold it compared to the full-body sensing, which is.

    Voice recognition is pretty advanced, but it invariably requires some degree of "training", which with heavy accents can be problematic especially when the decoder encounters a word or phrase for the first time and has to deduce what it is.

    Its included I suspect for one very good reason: A major problem with using a full-body scan to provide input is how does the user terminate, or be selective in what inputs they make?

    In short how do you tell the hardware to STOP interpreting your movements?

    You can't just put the controller down because YOU are the controller... just this is going to make a lot of applications completely unfeasible without a non-physical method to suspend motion tracking.

    Ultimately voice controls are a neccessity for a large number of applications.
    Edited by 1 at 02/06/09 @ 16:52

  • Darren #107 3 years ago

    @peak_performance - You're commenting as a hardcore gamer though but I'd imagine Project Natal would be of interest to new and casual gamers because it offers a natural and fun means of interacting with games.

    The Wii has sold pretty much purely on the strength of its unique controller, it certainly wasn't the quality of its games! If Microsoft test this technology on the Xbox 360 and improve it for their next machine then they could well knock Nintendo off the top spot. Sure it doesn't mean that games will automatically be better but Nintendo's business model has worked a treat this generation so can you blame Microsoft for trying too?

    I say good luck to 'em, I'd love to see someone do this kind of thing properly as, IMO, the Wii's remote is half-arsed and woefully inaccurate in all but the simplest of games. That's why Nintendo had to release that accelerometer add-on for example. If people loved the Wiimote then I have no doubt that Natal could be equally huge in the next gen consoles.

  • GreyBeard #108 3 years ago

    @Darren

    I don't mean to be pedantic, but quite honestly since when was pantomiming an action in thin air a "natural" method of interaction?

    This is what is annoying me so much about the hype around this technology: outside of a few very specific instances it is going to feel more alien (and alienating) than using a controller.

    How something looks, and how it physically feels are two very different things.

  • MeBrains #109 3 years ago

    @widge: i did say started, didn't I?

    they did not last year, they did back in 2003...

  • kangarootoo #110 3 years ago

    @Darren

    "The Milo demo isn't just about advanced A.I. though, it shows a whole new way of interacting with a game character in the form of gesture controls, facial and voice recognition"

    But this was my point in my earlier rant. The demo shows us a variety of ways of interacting (such as talking), but then we learn that some of those ways (such as actual talking) aren't quite what was suggested in the demo.

    First off, waving hands to interact is not new. EyeToy has been doing it for yonks. And for me the jury is out about the facial and voice recognition. Again I am speaking just about Milo. Its great that my menu system can know its me by listening to my voice or recognising my face, but what true value does that give a game such as Milo?

    Having Milo say "hello kanga" 'cos he knows my face is going to wear thin pretty soon, and if our conversations all take the form of me saying stuff and him smiling or frowning because I sounded happy or sad, again I'm not sure whether I will still be there to see out my expected 8 hours of gameplay...

  • RedSparrows #111 3 years ago

    i'm not bothered about milo, i just wanna see where this goes.

    captain, cynicism vein ahead...she's gonna blow!

  • peak_performance #112 3 years ago

    @Darren
    Yeah, but then again I'm commenting mostly on how everyone shouts about a "revolution" right now. With the Wiimote I think it's actually possible to create games that are hardcore without many compromises (though it's a fucking shame how almost nothing's been done with it). For casual games - absolutely, maybe not the best thing since sliced bread, but the technology works and hopefully some developers will create some good stuff with it.

    Not to mention that MS does this three to four years after the Wii was launched (guessing it will hit the streets 2010) - no shit it's more advanced.

  • Rash' #113 3 years ago

    from the vids i've seen of the press conference demo and the family promo i have to say this holds tremendous potential... and as a PS3 owner familiar with the concept of potential, i'm very excited by this! ;p

  • smelly #114 3 years ago

    MILO:

    Molyneux
    Is
    Lying (again)
    Obviously

  • Spekingur #115 3 years ago

    Milo != Project Natal

  • busboy33 #116 3 years ago

    @peak_performance:

    "what value would it bring to the game?"

    I can think of one example off the top of my head. Imagine playing Forza3 with a controller or wheel, but using Natal to track your head. you could look into turns naturally by actually looking, rather than trying to feather the right stick on a controller. Set it so its not 1:1 reaction -- I turn my head slightly, and it gives me the full side view. I can still see the screen.
    Or use it in a 3rd-person action game. I don't know about you, but I flinch when a projectileis coming my way. Tie Natal to read that reaction, then activate a dodge/roll/evasion when I flinch.
    Would I want to control an entire game exclusively with this? Probably not. But I could certainly see it adding to a traditional controler scheme immensely.

  • peak_performance #117 3 years ago

    yo that's the examples i brought up earlier dude

    :)

  • busboy33 #118 3 years ago

    @peak:

    my bad -- saw your coment approx 2nd page and jumped to a response. Consider me sufficiently shamed.

  • 3william56 #119 3 years ago

    busboy - some of your suggestions sound good, until you factor in real world distractions. FPS: you're on a platform, the phone goes, you glance sideways and your character evade rolls off the edge. Ditto driving - you're hitting a corner, then the camera shoots off the other way, and you're driving blind. Let alone how it will deal with someone else in it's field of view. Or a kid/dog. Too much potential for unwanted reaction - like eyetoy and PSeye.

    One thing the Sony dildo and Wiimote has, is at least a degree of deliberate control - buttons are still needed imho. And a physical object to hold is also a must. I think Natal has potential for party games, like the wii, but in 'hardcore' or 'proper' games? Not convinced. And if Ninty, with one of the best records for innovation in the biz, arguably hasn't really made the most of the wii yet, MS will have to pull a lot more than their usual better copy of other's ideas out of the hat to get this to work - Lips being a classic example.

    But as you say, the idea of controlling the basic functions and media player look good (there's already a Mac app that mods Itunes with the built in webcam for similar effect). Wonder why Sony never did it with the PSEye?

  • oerhoert #120 3 years ago

    "old disney cartoon with the latest Pixar."

    Terrible example. Old Disney cartoons are generally held in the same high regard as Pixar's stuff, displaying other kinds of qualities to make up for their relatively low-level technical solutions.

    I'm impressed by the level of this thread by the way. Most people actually seem reasonable, for once. I agree that Natal will probably fit best into the Xbox 360 experience by offering additional capabilities to the traditional games. Although I'd have to say that it needs to be cheap to be viable in that case. $199 ain't gonna cut it, it needs to be sub-$99, ideally bundled with a fantastic game like Wii Fit.

  • Spekingur #121 3 years ago

    It could possibly provide additional capabilities for lazy people :D

    With voice recognition you could say "turn on" and your X360 would turn on, "turn off" could do the reverse. "Open drive" could open the DVD drive, etc etc. And if it will only recognise your voice for this and not one of your (mean) friends (that might be losing in a game) then yay.
    Then again I see nothing wrong with using it in a driving game or a sports game. Not completely sold on the FPS front. The Sports game would have to makes sense as well, full body control would never work in the current way FIFA works, except maybe for penalties.
    I see this working with Tiger Woods. And the beauty of it, you could probably use some random stick to simulate a club.

  • robg #122 3 years ago

    Oh yeah - the sniper in this game is such a turn-off!

    D'oh.

  • menschenfracht #123 3 years ago

    oh, beware of teh power of natal!

  • busboy33 #124 3 years ago

    @3william56:

    Granted -- if issues like that can't be addressed, then the technology will not be as useful.

    The "startled glance" may be insurmountable, but in terms of other people or pets crossing in front of the camera the demos 3DV were showing off on their site displayed that the camera (presumably the same one that forms the basis of Natal) had the ability to "lock" on a particular designated person, so that it was capable of ignoring other people or motion. They had a video of the camera locking onto the person, then erasing the surrounds (for video conferencing -- add in an office backdrop so people don't know you're confrencing from the kitchen). A second person walked into the shot, walked around, waved their hands about . . . nothing. Only when they reached directly in front of the target did the camera detect their hands, and then only to the extend that the arm overlapped the target.
    Maybe they won't be able overcome the hurdles, but there are certainly possibilities, and I have to say the tech that 3DV was demoing on their site last year was more impressive than what MS displayed Monday, so hopefully there's more in that toy.
    Actually, scratch that: I'm sure there's more there. Johnny Lee (the Wiimote headtracking guy) just posted on his blog that he's been working on Natal, and what he's been doing was unconnected to any of the displays from the show -- its never been announced, so he can't talk about it yet. Things like that give me hope.
    Still, when they finally release it, it'll either put up the goods or not. I can certainly see the interface being a hit with non-gamers. Soccer mom sits at the couch, calls up some music from last.fm by voice, checks her Twitter and Facebook nonsense, vidcalls a friend, then orders and watches a movie just by waving her hands. That could be quite popular -- no 800 button remotes to screw with.

  • dirk_aircool #125 3 years ago

    I've got a Wii . and all the crap that goes with it . most of the games are bollox . I am not intrested in motion controll for my xbox .I already get in the shit for 'talking' to my live mates at 2am ( headphones dont let me talk soft ) . I cant imagine the crap I'd get in for leaping around AND shouting at 2am .
    Anyway , I just wanna sit twriddling my thumbs when playing a game , not get a stiff neck and dead arms when I gotta go to work next day . it sound utter utter crap.

  • Kneesrs #126 3 years ago

    mrWhite - 03-Jun-09 01:58:45 Hmm let's look at what games will work with this:

    And my thought was how cool it would be to have Natal integrated into Mass Effect 3. I don't expect to be completely controller-less, but to combine a controller with voice interaction ("Ashley, quietly flank left" - "Tali, weapons free on right"...) and body movement, expressions, and gesture recognition, including those gestures already depicted in the game (upwards for biotic, outward for tech mines), that would be great!

    It wasn't what was shown on-stage that got me most excited; it was the possibilities that could come of the tech. I've learned lots of different ways to game over the years. Do I want to be jumping up and around for Ricochet? Not on my blown-out knee, but I certainly still can learn new methods of interacting with games and characters. Even in my 40's, I'm not that far gone...

  • jynxce #127 3 years ago

    Sounds like alot of sour grapes from the lot of you. Then again, you're most likely bitter Nintendo or Sony fans feeling threatened. All this talk of "But... but, I don't want to jump around the room!" is complete rubbish. Have there been consideration that just taking something as simple as head movement (which it's capable of doing) can change the way trite FPS are played. Imagine if you had the ability to control the right stick with head movements now. Turning around would still be controlled with it, but the venier movements left to you.

    Of course it will fall on deaf ears because I can understand pouring salt in a wound can cause one to lose focus.
    Edited by 1 at 03/06/09 @ 20:22

  • immateriaux #128 3 years ago

    Have MS ever had an original idea or been first with a product? Seems all we ever see from them is copied ideas, re-wrapped, and called something new. Name calling. I guess they are innovative with name calling.

  • Xerx3s #129 3 years ago

    "Well Sony say they sold over 3million eye toys worldwide, thats not bad going for a gimmiky thing! "

    Sony also claims that it has 24 million psn users. Forgive me when I have a healthy distrust to anything claimed by sony or any other multinational for that matter.

  • Psyver #130 3 years ago

    Who want's to play with a Wii when you can be Wii-less. Milo was kind of creepy. Like Seaman with people. Potential is astounding for the medium. Imagine a football title or Food Fight 3D!!! Virtua Fighter Natal anyone? I'm excited. Good show M$. At least we know you're trying to improve what Nintendo started and then left alone.

  • obscured021 #131 3 years ago

    it also should be used as an aid in games along with your wheel or pad, in most race or flying games on my pc i use track IR to track my head movements to look around in the car or plane, it would be nice to have the same setup for forza3

  • MrScruffier #132 3 years ago

    The Milo & Kate demo was amazing, you could almost totally imagine that Kate was reacting to Milos actions. Imagine if we could get technology like her on 8 out of 10 cats

  • Bluetooth #133 3 years ago

    This is from the man who made Black and White, Fable, Fable 2... all big letdowns when compared to the initial "best thing ever" hype that PM gives before game release.

  • funkateer #134 3 years ago

    Really interesting this Natal project, although it could fall into the same trap as the Wii and that it will only used in novelty minigames. I can tell for sure that nobody who wants to do a serious game of racing is going to wank around with an imaginary steering wheel, and I know I'm not waiting for another Wii-Sports.

    What I hope will happen is the game developers will integrate it with more traditional, proven controls. For example an FPS with a traditional controller, but with added head tracking for 3D-like viewport updating (like http://www .youtube.com/watch?v=Jd3-eiid-Uw) and ducking etc.

    What I also hope is that they can bring down the lag. The article mentioned it needs 5 frames to sample your body gesture, which means 5 frames of lag, which is kind of an eternity.

    But really, they should not promote it in a way that suggests that a traditional controller is some kind of limiting factor that should be replaced with motion controls. It's not! Real gamers want real controls. Natal complementing real controls, now that would be cool.

  • makeamazing #135 3 years ago

    But you dont need a sure to be more expensive Natal to do face tracking, even cheap webcams can do that. So I'm very confused...

    1. If its a non controller device, cant see anyone jumping around for ages, or it working in hardcore games - use a controller with it someone says - well whats the point then....
    2. If its well it can be used for voice recognition or head tracking, you dont need the 3D camera aspect - save lots of money.
    3. Milo, dont get me started on that "tech demo"... its amazing what alot of cash and scripting can make people think its all real... oh Milo is not really part of Natal.

    I cannot see how anything but shovelware will be released with it, and if anyone wants to put useful things in it (such as someone said head tracking) you dont need such an expensive peice of kit. So trying to do everything, it will do nothing imho but mean the consumer spends more cash and is more disappointed.

  • funkateer #136 3 years ago

    "But you dont need a sure to be more expensive Natal to do face tracking, even cheap webcams can do that. So I'm very confused..."

    True, but I suspect Natal might be able do it a bit more accurately because of the depth sensing, though?

  • davisorle #137 3 years ago

    For the ignorants, simple fact: This has NOTHING at all to do with an eyetoy. It's like calling ur dick a dildo, even though in your cases a dildo is more usefull than your dick cause if youc an't use yoru brins I cant expect you to be able to use your cocks any more than a dildo. Simple shit :)

    Yeah this is the future of motion control since you can have the OPTION to control ingame through voice, body motion and a controller( all with voice and facial recognition which is also amazing I have to admit ).

    For those that worry about the software.. We all know that a game designer-freak, like Peter, was so waiting for something like this to "do it" first and he wont give up. The fact you heard someone like Spielberg ( if not go watch his interview ) be so amazed and interested into working on the product himself and creating new stuff.. I mean SERIOUSLY how many of you were EVER dissapointed from something that had to do with that dude? -Never- So, there is NO way that ppl will stop working on this thing. As simple was it was that they keep creating shit for the Wemote or wtf they call it. Ever since Sidewinder ( super old controller for PCs from MS with motion sensor.. yeah if you dont know it i had it. Google it ) I just hated motion controlling. This isnt motion controlling. I cant be bitchslapping my friend for all i care and laugh seeing it on the game earning points by it. lol

    Anyhow, the thing is that the possibilities are HUGE. An adventure/riddle game you can solve it with using voice and hand/body controls. You can play monkey island and instead of choose the phrase just say it and say the way points.. You dont HAVE to use ur body. As long as they have the SDKs and the time goes by with it it will be implemented in mostly everything like they did for Wii, for achievements first on 360 and now copy/pasted to PS3 and now this. You can combine voice commands from this, profile choosing automatic wince the face recognition and mix it up with a controller for the movement etc since you should have the OPTION to choose controls. Plus the fact it can work so many times better in so many levels than an eyetoy which is also a plus itself..

    All I need now and for anyone into Hightech stuff is a price and date for this :) I bet its gonna be a bitch in the pocket but if I can pay so much building me a new PC whenever I think needed, THIS is a must have :p

  • cheeky_marshmellow #138 2 years ago

    plain and simple, pm has already said that Milo may not understand all the words you are saying, however he can recognise when you are telling a joke just by the joke like tone of your voice. of course it has its flaws and pm isn't saying you can randomly have all kinds of conversations with him (only when the talk icon comes up) but it is still a brilliant idea.

    Natal is not like the wii or even like eye toy, they have motion, voice and even depth sensors. not only is there voice recognition there is also tone recognition (more for milo) and i could be wrong but i dont think thats ever been done before.
    of course i am also a little sceptical about how they will apply this tech to some games but u have to realise that previous tech may not have been that good, but they are improving, flaws found in previous things will slowly be fixed in time. im not saying that natal will be perfect but have a little faith that as the gaming worlds expands they are bound to make it better and better.

    Anyway i am excited but no one will really see how it turns out until it is released.
    Edited by 1 at 23/12/09 @ 10:24