E3: Post-Natal Discussion

By Ellie Gibson Published 5 June, 2009

Microsoft's Alex Kipman explains the technology.

The highlight of Microsoft's E3 press conference - apart from Gepetto Molyneux and his talking boy - was undoubtedly Project Natal. As you'll know if you've read our hands-on preview, it allows you to play games using your whole body and invisible controllers, via a camera that sits under your TV.

So far, so EyeToy - but there's more to Project Natal than that. So the project director, Alex Kipman, told us while demoing how his shiny new technology can be used to play good old Burnout Paradise. Read on to find out more about how it all works and what the future holds.

Eurogamer: Were you already working at Microsoft when you came up with the idea for Project Natal?

Alex Kipman: I've been working at Microsoft for about eight years, so I've been there for some time. I took on the job of creating an incubation team to think about what's next for Xbox. Don [Mattrick] challenged us to think ahead - to think beyond, to be innovative.

We thought about a wide range of things and made a team effort within Xbox to figure out where we want interactive entertainment to go. After quite a collaborative effort we landed on this, and a lot of research and a lot of sweat blended into something I think we're all very proud of.

'E3: Post-Natal Discussion' Screenshot 1

Claire - probably never imagined she would be in so many internet photo galleries.

Eurogamer: How does Project Natal work with Burnout?

Alex Kipman: Essentially we do a 3D body scan of you. We graph 48 joints in your body and then those 48 joints are tracked in real-time, at 30 frames per second. So several for your head, shoulders, elbows, hands, feet...

Say I'm tracking a wrist, which is what I do for Burnout. I can look at that on a single frame and I can see what direction, acceleration and confidence I have for that joint. Why is that interesting? Because it allows me to not only know where you are, but to know where you're going to be. This is how we do the directing and the predictive behaviour.

If you think about swinging a baseball bat, by the time you're halfway done with the swing, I know not only where you're going to end but when you're going to end. There are very precise and predictable ways so you can have that immediate payoff of my baseball bat hitting the baseball.

'E3: Post-Natal Discussion' Screenshot 2

Molyneux and his new kid.

Eurogamer: So this technology isn't just for use with Arcade titles or specially designed games like Milo & Kate? It could be used to play regular games?

Alex Kipman: Absolutely. We see there being three types of game. We love the [existing] controller, it's not going anywhere and there will continue to be games that are specifically made to only work with a controller. We'll have games that are specifically designed to work only with Natal - not just arcadey games, but real, hardcore, triple-A titles.

Then you'll have some games that are essentially a hybrid - games that work both with the controller and with Natal. Why is that interesting? Think about a first-person shooter where I'm using the controller but I'm doing facial tracking by just moving around and looking round corners.

Or you could have a hardcore gamer like me playing a game with a controller, while a non-hardcore person sitting next to me enjoys the experience by playing with Natal. I could be having my Halo experience with the controller and the friend next to me, who's not a hardcore gamer, could be throwing grenades or driving the Warthog or doing any number of things with Natal.

We can track up to four players in the same way we track controllers. Each individual player will be able to choose - do I want to bind with a controller, or do I want to bind with my body, or do I want to bind with both?

Eurogamer: I can see you've got the camera under the telly here and it looks like the system is connected up to a laptop. But when people are playing with Project Natal at home, where does the magic happen? Is it in the Xbox?

Alex Kipman: The sensor itself has a lot of magic built in. It wouldn't be interesting for us to go to our developers and say, 'Hey, you can create all these brand new, awesome experiences but you need to do a lot of processing outside of the game.'

So we have a custom chip that we put in the sensor itself. The chip we designed with Microsoft will be doing the majority of the processing for you, so as a game designer you can think about the sensor as a normal input device - something that's relatively free for you as a game designer.

Designers have 100 per cent of the resources of the console and this device is just another input device they can use. It's a fancy, cool, awesome device, but essentially you can just treat it from a free-to-platform perspective, because all of the magic - all of the processing - happens sensor-side.

'E3: Post-Natal Discussion' Screenshot 3

Another shot of the racing game tech demo from Microsoft's showreel

Eurogamer: A lot of the time, when you're playing a racing game you're holding down the A button to make the car go. So with Project Natal, you're sticking your leg out to make the car accelerate instead. But what if you're playing, say, Tomb Raider? Could you use the camera to play that?

Alex Kipman: Burnout is almost a bad example because it's an old game that wasn't designed for Natal. I would say Tomb Raider would need to be designed for Natal from the get-go. I've presented this to most of our third-party developers and from the creator's perspective you start thinking of brand new game mechanics, brand new ways of interacting with the game.

So the Tomb Raider team would come up with all of their different game mechanics and represent them with different Natal experiences. Lara does a lot of headstands, and I wouldn't expect people in their living room to be doing headstands. As a game designer you'd have to come up with a natural gesture to go mounting into headstands.

How can I make a user in their living rooms feel like Lara Croft without being as fit as Lara Croft? Because none of us are! This is the thing that really excites the game designers we've been talking to, both first-party as well as third-parties. They look at this as a brand new set of paint colours and paintbrushes they can use to paint brand new experiences.

'E3: Post-Natal Discussion' Screenshot 4

Each Natal comes with a free green man.

Eurogamer: What if you're lazy? Could you play this Burnout demo sitting down?

Alex Kipman: Game designers will have to come up with what is natural. I can tell you several different options I can think of. You could say, hey, do this to accelerate [mimes pushing a steering wheel forwards] or this [pushes his shoulders forwards] or this to brake [pulls backwards].

And remember I'm tracking 48 joints individually, so there are so many combinations. I just gave you a few I thought of off the top of my head, but game designers could come up with anything. For all I care you could use your head to go forward - it's not very natural, but you could use any number of things as a game designer.

We're not making any predictions about the gestures; we think that's very constraining for game designers. We're saying, we're tracking 48 joints per frame in real time - use the combination of those things to create a rich vocabulary of gestures that allows you to create brand new experiences.

By the way, our system is able to understand these compound gestures in real-time, so you can really live up to this whole "all you need is life experience" idea. You teach the machine to understand the users as opposed to teaching the users to understand the machine.

You do that because there is no single gesture for any action - there will be several gestures for a single action, and as game designers you can manage all of these things and essentially graft them all onto your new experience as game mechanics. So you can have really simple, fun, "jump in" experiences.

Alex Kipman is project director of Project Natal.

Picture of Ellie.

About Ellie Gibson

Since joining Eurogamer in the mid 2000s, Ellie has written about subjects as diverse as the fall of Gizmondo, the rise of Hollyoaks actresses in Red Alert games and the noise a bear makes under NSFW circumstances.

Read more articles from Ellie by visiting the Ellie Gibson archive page.

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Comments (76) Latest comment 2 years ago

Comments threads automatically close after 30 days, but please feel free to continue chatting on the forum!

  • Zomoniac #1 3 years ago

    I wondered when EG would finally become the last website to run that headline :)

  • Vice.Destroyer #2 3 years ago

    Good article. Is it wrong for my scepticism to dissipate? I am actually mildly intrigued.

  • JohnnyWashnGo #3 3 years ago

    'Or you could have a hardcore gamer like me playing a game with a controller, while a non-hardcore person sitting next to me enjoys the experience by playing with Natal.'

    So, by admission, the technology is crap for playing games seriously, with any level of precision or accuracy?
    I do wish he would have said this to Nintendo before the Wii came out.

    Plus, I don't see how flailing around holding, pushing, pulling imaginary objects could be an enjoyable experience. Sounds like an invitation for muscle ache to me.

  • JahB #4 3 years ago

    Plus, I don't see how flailing around holding, pushing, pulling imaginary objects could be an enjoyable experience. Sounds like an invitation for muscle ache to me.

    you sir, obviously have no imagination. either that, or you're hell bent on moving as little as possible.

  • Les #5 3 years ago

    Well that tells us pretty much nothing...

  • kule #6 3 years ago

    I assume you must be able to - but I'm surprised no one has asked whether you could sit on a couch and actually pretend to push the accelerator/brake pedals with your feet. I'm not so keen on the invisible steering wheel but a combo of controller steering and imaginary foot pedals might be cool...

  • Wastelander #7 3 years ago

    "I assume you must be able to - but I'm surprised no one has asked whether you could sit on a couch and actually pretend to push the accelerator/brake pedals with your feet."

    They demonstrated that on the floor at E3 with a modified copy of the original Burnout.

  • Yossarian #8 3 years ago

    I think it'll work best for 'hardcore' games when it's a controller + NATAL. So for a first person shooter, precise movement, aiming, and firing is on the pad, but you could put 'lean' or 'crouch' through NATAL.

    Obviously it's not going to replace the precise control that a pad gives you for most titles that people on Eurogamer play, but the potential applications to other kinds of (mini)games is pretty fascinating.
    Edited by 1 at 05/06/09 @ 11:25

  • Bigglesworth #9 3 years ago

    How many joints are you tracking again?

    And I bet by the end of that interview he wished he'd never mentioned Burnout.

  • Wastelander #10 3 years ago

    Here's ArmA2 being played with a combination of traditional controls and 3D motion tracking.

  • #11 3 years ago

    cool video, but that little gizmo would be much better suited to a wrap around display. He moves his head but his eyes are nearly always fixed forward. Kinda limited in that sense?

  • Spydy #12 3 years ago


    Surely you need at least a controller to move around 3D space. Fight Night would be great, ducking and weaving, but how would you move around the ring like a champ? You can only move so much in front of Natal. You would need a device to give you freedom in the 3D world. Wii has this solved with the nunchuck analogue stick. FPS's and the like, forget it. Way to difficult to control.

    I'm a total skeptic at this point. I bought the 360 camera and it was hardly ever supported.

  • Widge #13 3 years ago

    Woman in thumbnail on main page = playing milking simulator

  • Eraser #14 3 years ago

    Looking around with head movements would totally suck. You move your head but you still have to look straight ahead at your TV since your TV doesn't move around with your head. It'd be totally annoying and unintuitive.

  • Wastelander #15 3 years ago

    Yeah, it needs a little tweaking but the possibilities are cool, I liked the peering out round corners.
    Even simpler stuff like thrusting out your controller and your guy doing the same with his rifle on screen, or giving squad commands with your hands would be cool little touches that would add to the immersion.

    Anyone ever play the Penumbra series? Imagine that but with your actual hands instead of the little cursor.

    There's so many cool possibilities with motion control now the other companies besides Nintendo are going to push it. It's been floating around in the mainstream for a while now so hopefully the best bits will filter back to the core gaming stuff.

  • berelain #16 3 years ago

    Im more intrigued about Natal than before, now. I particularly like the idea of being able to use a controller AND Natal to interact with games; shooters would be awesome if you can move your head around to track the vision, but still use the controller and triggers for shooting etc. Driving could be mapped to the movements of the pad as a steering wheel, like in burnout but with you holding the pad in your hands, and things like grenades could be done with a simple arm gesture.

    I'm really excited about it. If you just open your mind to the ideas a little, the scope of it is incredible, especially -for me- when it comes to the little things, like the idea of being able to make eye contact and talk to characters in RPGs. Imagine something like Morrowind's NPC interaction system, but with NPCs that can react to where you are, what you say, and the way in which you say it.

  • red3p #17 3 years ago

    You guys need a bit of more imagination. No need to run on spot to make your chartacter move forward.
    Why not just put your right foot a little forward to make your character move forward, put it even more forward he will run, put your right foot next to the left he stands still, behind the left foot he walks backwards. With the left hand you indicate the direction you want to go/look and in the right hand you hold a cheap plastic gun to shoot. Just 10 seconds of thinking, there are for sure even better more clever ways to handle it.

    I just imagine playing oblivion like this, grabing a sword on your back and fighting an enemy then putting it back. All this could be done. You need the map, just say map (voice recognition). You want to see your equipement, just say equipment, you want to change the spells you have equipped, just say it etc.

    c'mon guys, don't be so narrow minded. sometimes you sound like my grand-parents, everything was better when I was young, and so on
    Edited by 1 at 05/06/09 @ 11:57

  • Yossarian #18 3 years ago

    Even something like in RPGs, having the characters turn to make eye contact with you or follow you as you shift in your seat, which is so minor... that would be cool. Or responding to your nodding and shaking your head. If Milo is capable of recognising a frown or a smile, how great would it be if your party members in a Bioware RPG could too?

  • Doctor_What #19 3 years ago

    I've got about 3 feet square of space in my living room. I strongly suspect that I'll never be able to play using this system. Ho hum.

  • Les #20 3 years ago

    "Even simpler stuff like thrusting out your controller and your guy doing the same with his rifle on screen"

    Already supported by sixaxis in RFoM. Can't recall it being a huge success...

  • Wastelander #21 3 years ago

    Take it to the next level then, instead of a simple melee thrust take your right hand and physically poke your finger into your enemy's eye.

    Jesus, grow a fucking imagination.

  • systems #22 3 years ago

    I think it's be great coupled with the controller - no more messing around with TrackIR but you'd have to be careful to ensure you're still looking at the screen.

    Someone could ask you a question in an RPG and you could either say yes or no, or nod or shake your head, or give thumbs up or down. You could make a door opening motion to open a door. You could scan your face into the game more reliably than with the Live camera.

    As has already been said, something like Penumbra would be perfect. If the price is right I'll be having it (I only used the Live camera twice - for scanning my face into Vegas 1/2).

  • studiosonic #23 3 years ago

    For the people who think moving your head around while still having to fix your eyes on the screen, think again. I bought a head tracker for my PC a couple of years back. It was very cool (I sold it as it only worked with a few games, one of which was ARMA, and I stopped playing them) but it did involve me wearing a special hat for tracking - i looked like a right plum. Anyway, it worked really well with mouse/keyboard for your usual movememnts, and then just turning your head slighty in 6 axis (i.e. zoom in and out too by going closer to the screen) whie keeping your eyes fixed on the screen. You only needed subtle head movements. It basically did the 'mouse look' bit, so you could run forward while looking around, or sit in a helicopter steering with mouse/keyboard and looking around the cockpit with the head tracker. I got a bit sick playing it for long periods but then I was sitting right in front of my monitor. Sitting back on a sofa, with a controller, and not having to wear a silly hat for the tracking....and being able to track the rest of your body, not just basic head tracking....makes me giddy with excitement.

    I have very high hopes for this technology. It will not only provide great new games using full body tracking, but also a perfect accompaniment for the traditional controller.

  • GamerG #24 3 years ago

    The more I read about this Natal technology the more I get excited about it, I want to play with it NOW!

  • XdarXideX #25 3 years ago

    I can imagine that really this camera is going to be in its element when it comes to fitness games. Telling you exactly how well you're doing with your posture and speed during exercises. "Xbox Fit".

    It'd be cool if I could scan my airsoft rifle in and use that as a "peripheral" for shooting games rather than hold an imaginary weapon.

  • beastmaster #26 3 years ago

    All this stuff about things being natural? I'm sorry but it's unlikey you'll move to catch something that is just thin air. Your telling me that playing something like Forza is going to be more natural using thin air rather than a steering wheel with force feedback? Not in a million years pal.

    However, I like the idea of navitaging through the dashboard without having to use a controller. To be able to flick through the marketplace, select what I want and then shout 'DOWNLOAD NOW!!' is fine by me.

    Edit: Will Rockstar do a version of Manhunt using this tech? Oh yes they will! Headbutt. kick, stab! Oh dear.

    It would be interesting to see how somethng like Endwar would work using this. But I fear an onslaught of Rayman Rabbid games.
    Edited by 1 at 05/06/09 @ 12:52

  • SwedBear #27 3 years ago

    I am very intrigued by this technology and together with the voice recognition I think it has some very cool potentials. In the end though it comes down to what the developers come up with.

    To me the potential is together with the controller. Not use Natal for every little control but combine it with the regular conrtoller. To me that's a more appealing that the Wiimote/Nunchuck/PS3 Wand control.

    In my mind this should work brillantly for an RTS. Simply gesture in the air in front of you like you would do if you pointed on a screen (Minority Report style) and circle around units, tap in the air to send units to places, do a movement with the hand to bring up an meny and tap in the air to select something etc. etc.

    But in the end the developers need to come through (just as they have to with the Wiimote/Wand). I think MS has given them some nice tech to work with though.

    /B

  • Wastelander #28 3 years ago

    "Your telling me that playing something like Forza is going to be more natural using thin air rather than a steering wheel with force feedback? Not in a million years pal."

    Nobody is telling you that...

  • Universal_Hamster #29 3 years ago

    While this does open up interesting possibilities, (it would be cool to have It putting your rock band avatars on stage, was my immediate idea) let's not forget that the lag is "not too bad", which of course means it's WAY too bad. Lag = useless for any serious gameplay.

  • ManicDrunkMonk #30 3 years ago

    There seem to be a number of stupid people on the Eurogamer forums who seem to be unable to read what has been said about NATAL. Some of them are even people who have seemed logical and reasonable in the past.

    Idiotic comments about running on the spot to control an FPS, and the complete lack of imagination when it comes to a system quite this open-ended astounds me.

    This is the biggest hardware announcement imo since the DS was revealed. The only problem is that it seems unlikely to see the light of day until christmas next year.

    Colour me excited!

  • kangarootoo #31 3 years ago

    It does sound interesting, and its proably wise to stop discussing Natal in the same sentence as Milo.


    There seems to be what can only described as a fair amount of deliberate stupidity in thread. In other words, people saying things like "it will be rubbish for doing X because of Y", when in fact the only reason there is an issue is because the poster has knowlingly suggested a crap implementation.

    There are loads of ways in which this sort of control system could be effectively implemented. A few posters (already hell bent on dismissing this) writing up what are in essence badly thought out designs doesn't change that one iota.


    Sorry to pick on you dude, but...

    "Looking around with head movements would totally suck. You move your head but you still have to look straight ahead at your TV since your TV doesn't move around with your head. It'd be totally annoying and unintuitive."

    If you are crouched behind a wall and you want to see what is on the other side of it, do you...

    a) move your head upwards (or sideways, or whatever)
    b) keep your head stationery behind the wall but rotate it (for reasons unknown to all but yourself)

    I rest my case. If you want to find a way to suggest this is useless, I suppose a small amount of effort is all that is needed to contrive a suitable example.

  • kangarootoo #32 3 years ago

    "There seem to be a number of stupid people on the Eurogamer forums who seem to be unable to read what has been said about NATAL. Some of them are even people who have seemed logical and reasonable in the past.

    Idiotic comments about running on the spot to control an FPS, and the complete lack of imagination when it comes to a system quite this open-ended astounds me."

    Exactly.

  • Les #33 3 years ago

    "Jesus, grow a fucking imagination."

    I've got plenty of imagination. As a result I know that most things imagined don't really turn out well when realized...

  • Les #34 3 years ago

    "There are loads of ways in which this sort of control system could be effectively implemented."

    In the theoretical space of all possibilities there probably are. Whether they will ever be discovered is another matter...

    Just look at how utterly unimaginative game developers have been so far with motion controls. A camera that can track 48 joints isn't going to change that all of a sudden...

  • Wastelander #35 3 years ago

    No you're right, there's no point even trying something new, it's doomed to failure, we should all pack up and go home to our 14'' portables and nes pads.

  • kangarootoo #36 3 years ago

    @Les

    I don't think we disagree. I often comment on the deluge of shite 3rd party Wii games, amply demonstrating as you say, that doing something useful with a motion control system is a challenging task.

    However, I am taking particular exception to some posters (who if they made a motion control game, would likely do the terrible job you are suggesting) having sufficient ego to write off a whole control system opportunity... purely because they themselves aren't up to the job of making it work well.

    I am in no doubt that some of the games using Natal (or the Sony wavey stick thing) will be poor products, but that will be the fault of the devs in question. As both systems have potential that can be unlocked by quality development.

    Are we to really stop innovating in this business because we pre-emptively assume all developers to be too crap at their jobs to use the innovations effectively?

  • Widge #37 3 years ago

    This years Home? :o

  • mk-1601 #38 3 years ago

    "I think it'll work best for 'hardcore' games when it's a controller + NATAL. So for a first person shooter, precise movement, aiming, and firing is on the pad, but you could put 'lean' or 'crouch' through NATAL."

    Finally! All the immersion of a joypad with all the convenience of Eyetoy!

    I think Natal will have some cool applications, but what they're not saying or demoing speaks volumes. If there's "prediction" and "confidence" involved in tracking points, is it precise enough to stick a cursor on screen? Y'know, like is effortlessly possible with the Wii Remote on my lap right now? As we're apparently going to be navigating the NXE with semaphore commands I'm guessing not.

  • Les #39 3 years ago

    "As both systems have potential that can be unlocked by quality development."

    I personally think it's way too early to speculate much about either set-up's potential. What was actually shown of Natal was rather rubbish and all these people (including the ever gullible video game press) getting excited about a PR video saddens me.
    Edited by 1 at 05/06/09 @ 13:53

  • Les #40 3 years ago

    "If there's "prediction" and "confidence" involved in tracking points, is it precise enough to stick a cursor on screen?"

    Exactly.

  • DrowJones #41 3 years ago

    Just as long LucasArts makes a lightsaber-duel-fps game that uses Natal, I'm happy.

  • Widge #42 3 years ago

    I'm only joking. Fuck it, we can't point the finger at any company and say console lose anyway. Its down to the games and adoption, if that doesn't happen for MS and Sony then Nintendo win this, regardless of how clever the joint mapping of one is and the 1:1 of the other is.

  • GreyBeard #43 3 years ago

    @Kangarootoo

    The problem is that without adding some kind of conventional controller into the mix, Natal has extremely limited applications. And when you do add in a secondary controller you have issues of occlusion to worry about.

    And if you agree this is the case, is this *PARTIAL* solution really worth the reams of commentary it has generated?

    With any motion control system the intractable problem is the lack of physical feedback; Natal despite presenting itself as a fully physical input system in fact suffers from this worse than existing methodologies.

    Look at it this way: Its key feature is its ability to track multiple points in 3d space, however what it is incapable of is providing any kind of reactive feedback to the player's movements within that virtual space.

    And that, I'm afraid, is a deal-breaker as the disconnect between the real and the virtual worlds is larger - the human side is still subject to gravity, balance, and physical stress but the machine cannot provide any countering reinforcement aside from the usual 3d perspective shown in 2d on the video screen.

  • kangarootoo #44 3 years ago

    ""If there's "prediction" and "confidence" involved in tracking points, is it precise enough to stick a cursor on screen?"

    Exactly. "

    What do you mean "exactly"?

    First off, perhaps it IS accurate enough. We simply don't know. If you mean "exactly, we should ask that question" then fair enough. But I'm not sure that was what you implied.

    Regardless, who said that being able to locate a pointer onscreen was a mandatory requirement for any control system? And lets not hold up the Wii as a cast iron example. I've used a Wii, and its pointer abilities are not really on a par with lightguns of 15 years ago. The key thing is that for most Wii games, the accuracy is not crucial. Equally, some of the ways Natal could be implemented may not require that precise ability either (yes I know an fps would, but the fps genre is not the centre of the universe).


    @GreyBeard

    Whether it is a partial, or complete, or unsuitable solution depends entirely on the job you decide to set it against.

    A shovel is a complete solution for digging hole, a partial solution for tending your garden, and unsuitable for trimming your roses. IF a developer decides to make Natal the primary and singular control system in a game for which it is entirely unsuitable, I would expect bad results.

    I say again, as I've always said, a badly implemented idea does NOT necessarily mean the underlying concept is bad. If I made a bloody awful driving game, would you then assume that driving games are just a bad lot to be best avoided?

    Natal is a concept, and its intelligent use is what will determine whether it is good or bad in each unique and independant situation. If it is badly applied, the result will be bad. And deciding how it functions as part of a complete control system is just one of the many decisions that might well seperate the skilled designers from the not so skilled.

  • hiddenranbir #45 3 years ago

    Was hoping he'd talk more about the interaction from voice recognition.

    Guys...does anyone else, like me, see a cool way to bring back those classic adventure games?

    Adventure games with natural conversation? (Because they already have parameters in how conversations need to go)

  • mattigan #46 3 years ago

    People keep going on about it not being able to compete with a force feedback steering wheel, well, try playing COD4 with a force feedback steering wheel and see how well you get on.

    This is not the panacea for all controller woes, but a new way to do things we have already been doing for years along, with a way to do things we have not even thought to do because they simply were'nt possible with a standard controller.

    So yes, you can drive a car, but you can also shoot a gun, or swing a sword, or kick/throw a ball, or fly a plane, or shoot a bow, or juggle chainsaws, or chop a tomato, or throw a frisbee, or jump rope, or flap your arms to fly like a bird ect, etc..... and thats just the motion sensing stuff, without mention of voice/sound or face/pattern/picture recognition applications that will be deampt up for this thing.

    This is a controller that has very few limits in what you can do with it, and that is the exciting thing.

  • MilkYMoO #47 3 years ago

    A world war 2 fighter simulator where you use your lad as the control stick would be great. Viagra included if needed.

  • subtlesnake #48 3 years ago

    "Look at it this way: Its key feature is its ability to track multiple points in 3d space, however what it is incapable of is providing any kind of reactive feedback to the player's movements within that virtual space."

    Sure the system can only provide visual feedback, but I think the point is that as it is, games don't react appropriately to what the player is doing - the player has to actively communicate his intentions, via a set of 'digital' options, so that if you're talking to another NPC for example, he can react to the particular dialogue options you pick, but not to the subtle cues that determine how attentive you're being, for example. I think even something simple as being able to nod to other characters would make a big difference as how engaged you feel with them.

    So I see this device, not as trying to replace the traditional analogue control inputs, but as a way of giving developers more information about what you're actually doing; what your intentions are, what your mental state is. Ideally, you shouldn't have to think about what you're doing - there shouldn't be any defined set of 'controls'; rather you should do what feels natural to you, and the game should respond to that.

    Obviously that's a big ask but before this point the task was essentially impossible because developers didn't have the required inputs. Now at least we can start making baby steps towards experiences that can respond to the player in his embodied state, rather than the player as a mere-pusher-of-buttons. Microsoft deserve credit for getting the ball rolling.

  • GreyBeard #49 3 years ago

    What amazes me is that people don't seem to comprehend the simple fact that using a controller is an elegant physical shorthand for doing things that are mechanically impossible. When you start tying the same actions to a bodily motion the scope actually narrows, because you need to provide some kind of meaningful physical analogue to the virtual action without exhausting the player or turning it into a chore.

    Its also pretty ironic that despite the claims of this type of interface being more inclusive, the added physical fitness requirements actually make it suited to a narrower demographic. I can't see too many seniors having epic sessions on Wii Fit !

    @subtlesnake

    Your example (the nodding motion) is pretty good, BUT, I'd argue that if a game requires that level of (total) physical involvement like that its going to be annoying as hell to play. Do you really want to play a game where you need to hold your head in a certain position so as not to inadvertently give a particular signal to the NPC?
    Edited by 1 at 05/06/09 @ 14:48

  • Dizzy #50 3 years ago

    "While this does open up interesting possibilities, (it would be cool to have It putting your rock band avatars on stage, was my immediate idea"

    That is a great idea... I would copyright it before the big companies use it ;)

    That would indeed be a rather easy extra that owners of guitar games can get out of a 360 with Natal. I am sure this could already be a big sales advantage.... you can actually move around with your guitar and do poses while your onscreen rock-hero does the same. It has no effect on gameplay, but makes the game more fun. Good stuff. Almost certain to sell well with the correct ad campaign.
    Edited by 2 at 05/06/09 @ 15:04

  • Les #51 3 years ago

    "If you mean "exactly, we should ask that question" then fair enough. But I'm not sure that was what you implied."

    That was exactly what I implied. As I've repeated on and on, we don't know enough about any of the new controllers to warrant the crazy predictions/claims around here. Given the on-stage demonstrations and actual Wii-mote and sixaxis experience, the best guess is that it will be utterly useless to the established hardcore genres.

  • subtlesnake #52 3 years ago

    "Your example (the nodding motion) is pretty good, BUT, I'd argue that if a game requires that level of (total) physical involvement like that its going to be annoying as hell to play. Do you really want to play a game where you need to hold your head in a certain position so as not to inadvertently give a particular signal to the NPC? "

    Well, when you talk other people do you worry about involuntarily moving your head, so as to make them think you agree when you really don't? The point is the system should allow you to move your head about as you normally do, but then when prompted it should look for a specific movement from you, as normal person would.

    Again I'm not saying it would be easy for a game to respond to body language in this way, but it does at least seem possible. Now whether you want such a thing I guess depends on how involved you want to be with the game: whether you want to hide behind a 'control wall' or whether you want the game to respond to what you're actually doing. If a character notices you're disinterested (say the system sees you looking away) should he comment on that? So I can understand if you don't want to 'role play' with your actions, but equally, being able to do so allows you to communicate with the game in a much subtler and arguably more immersive way.

  • kangarootoo #53 3 years ago

    @mattigan

    Good post, especially the "try playing COD4 with a force feedback steering wheel and see how well you get on. "


    @Les

    Tbh, I think we agree on this. The only difference is how skeptical we are regards future potential :)

    And if I'm honest, I'm probably being a little over-forgiving given how little we know about Natal and how long it will be before its actually out. I think I am just reacting to some bizarre uninformed nay-saying that occurred earlier in the thread.

  • The-Bodybuilder #54 3 years ago

    Wow, people are really either dumb, lacking in imagination, or are just plain stubborn.
    I mean, imagine playing Mass effect, where characters can read your face. Get angry at a comment, they respond rightfully. Node/look away, they see that and respond accordingly, shout at them, they back off/become aggresive.
    And like the scenario I've mentioned loads of time before, you can play as neo with a pad, and when everyone starts shooting at you, you lift up your and say "stop" and the bullets slow down and stop, then you push it back at them.

    I bet those claiming NATAL will be a flop, were those that said the wii would crash and burn.

  • The-Bodybuilder #55 3 years ago

    And peeople that moan about no physical feedback, you would think there were no consoles before the N64 pad and rumble pack.

  • The-Bodybuilder #56 3 years ago

    Imagine playing FIFA 10 vs 10 online and a team mate screws up a through ball. I naturally act out my dissapointment in real life whilst playing, so imagine NATAL noticing that, and the commentary responding to it/and the player acting it out?

  • Les #57 3 years ago

    "I mean, imagine playing Mass effect, where characters can read your face. Get angry at a comment, they respond rightfully. Node/look away, they see that and respond accordingly, shout at them, they back off/become aggresive."

    I have imagined it and stuff like that does absolutely nothing for me. As I pretty much still prefer text in RPGs instead of voice acting (especially if it is as extremely bad as in Fallout and other Bethesda games). I don't have any patience and I basically click through the annoying (and poor) story bits of the typical RPG to get back to the action ASAP.

    But I can appreciate that others might think such interaction a positive. Just don't expect anything sophisticated anytime soon and you'll not be disappointed.

  • Les #58 3 years ago

    "And peeople that moan about no physical feedback, you would think there were no consoles before the N64 pad and rumble pack."

    Physical feedback isn't restricted to rumble. The resistance and feel when pressing a button or pushing an analogue stick is feedback as well and much more important TBH than those silly vibrations.

  • Calgon #59 3 years ago

    How predictable Les, someone who's waxed lyrical about the Wii mote and how great nintendo are for innovating has done a u-turn... ignore this man he has no integrity, just a simple MS hater.

    Anyway trolls aside I think people are starting to see it might actually be put to some good use in the hands of the right developers and also this is just a solid base to build upon, imagine adding a new controller designed to go along with it(either around the same time or next gen) that has its own motion tracking(LEDs for the camera to pick it up and focus and maybe its own motion plus type sensors inside), buttons and triggers for FPS games and the like... devs will have no excuses not to build something really cool with that much to work with.

    I think its good that they pointed it out that they arent trying to do away with anything that would take us a step back where its needed(like traditional hardcore games that do need a controller of some sort) only to enhance it where possible, other than that they will be creating something new/untraditional. This should have stopped comments like "blah blah we dont want to be flailing around in FPS' and waving our arms around" except some people are just looking for negatives and will ignore statements from the source which should have already have answered them... because thats what trolls do isnt it.

  • Calgon #60 3 years ago

    By the way I think leaning forward and backwards to control acceleration and breaking ect, in a racing game/flying game/superman type game might actually work well if its done right.(if you are honestly saying you cant be bothered to lean froward in your chair... get out lol)
    Edited by 1 at 05/06/09 @ 17:43

  • TheComedian #61 3 years ago

    I think, tbh, Burnout is a really bad example. The cool thing about Natal, and the point that all the positive people ar ejumping on, is that it allows game developers to think of a new control set for a whole new range of game mechanics. If game developers really take advantage of this and get inventive, rather than copy and paste existing templates on top, it could be awesome - but there is a MASSIVE danger that they're going to go all 3rd party wii on us.

    As Speilberg said, it's not about reinventing the wheel, it's about not having a wheel at all. Meh, perhaps that's why they played Burnout without a wheel. Trying to be symbolic :p

  • Les #62 3 years ago

    "As Speilberg said, it's not about reinventing the wheel, it's about not having a wheel at all."

    And that's where his logic is faulty. Natal is just a replacement wheel. Though not physical, it's still a controller.

  • Machiavellian #63 3 years ago

    A game that I feel would be perfect for Natal are action RPG games like the Witcher, Dragon Age or even Diablo. The fact that you can use the standard gamepad but also use your hand to interact with the game interface like the Witcher. I can select those options on the screen the same way I do with a mouse which can free up those buttons for other things.

  • MENTAL1ST Verified Senior Software Engineer, Picsel UK Ltd. #64 3 years ago

    As I see it, there are two key areas of potential with Natal. Firstly, there's the obvious one that they put in the video, whereby you get full-body motion tracking (if it works) that can be used for the wii sports / ea sports actives, raving rabbids and punch outs of the world.

    Secondly, there's the unique advantage that it can be used in combination with the standard Xbox 360 joypad. This is the, for me, the largest advantage over Sony and Nintendo's solutions. In fact, Nintendo's tethering of its motion controller to the left hand side of a proper joypad via a cable is a half-assed attempt to get past this very problem.

    Not only is there the obvious potential of head tracking, but also, one can easily let go of the joypad with one hand, to perform whatever gestures might be necessary in the air, and return to using the pad normally when the motion control interlude is over.

    It's been stated numerous times in these forums that invisible steering wheels would be poor because it's unnatural to hold one's hands a set distance apart. But what if ones hands are holding the standard xbox controller. One could drive by pantomiming steering, and pivoting ones feet to accelerate and brake (I'd hope that'd work even sitting, coffee tables notwithstanding), but also have access to a full gamut of buttons for gears, weapons, etc. It could even use headtracking to make in-car viewpoints more worthwhile.

    If it works, and if, as is asserted, there's no considerable CPU overhead, Natal could add considerable nuances to hardcore games as well as open up the 360 to the novelty and fitness genres properly.

    One of the major advantages Natal has right now, I believe, is the buzz around it. People, developers included, are expecting great things of Natal (as opposed to, say, the Live Vision Camera, which was very much an afterthought), and hopefullt that'll be a self-fulfilling prophecy.
    Edited by 1 at 05/06/09 @ 20:05

  • Daithi #65 3 years ago

    """If there's "prediction" and "confidence" involved in tracking points, is it precise enough to stick a cursor on screen?"

    Exactly. "

    What do you mean "exactly"?

    First off, perhaps it IS accurate enough. We simply don't know. If you mean "exactly, we should ask that question" then fair enough. But I'm not sure that was what you implied.

    Regardless, who said that being able to locate a pointer onscreen was a mandatory requirement for any control system? And lets not hold up the Wii as a cast iron example. I've used a Wii, and its pointer abilities are not really on a par with lightguns of 15 years ago. The key thing is that for most Wii games, the accuracy is not crucial. Equally, some of the ways Natal could be implemented may not require that precise ability either (yes I know an fps would, but the fps genre is not the centre of the universe). "


    I'd imagine "prediction" and "confidence" can be used to greater/lesser extent depending on the app. The example they used was swinging a bat, prediction makes sense as it's a fast movement where high confidence should be fairly easy to get (I'd imagine a good number of the 48 tracking points are used in a movement like this). Moving a pointer however does not need to be near as fast so just turn prediction off and track it completely in real time.
    Edited by 1 at 05/06/09 @ 20:04

  • Les #66 3 years ago

    "One of the major advantages Natal has right now, I believe, is the buzz around it."

    Yeah, unbelievable... Makes one doubt humanity. But people will have forgotten all about it when it finally hits the market and turns out to be as rubbish as was apparent from the start... :/

  • ronuds #67 3 years ago

    "Yeah, unbelievable... Makes one doubt humanity. But people will have forgotten all about it when it finally hits the market and turns out to be as rubbish as was apparent from the start... :/"

    You're trying way too hard. It's great tech and in the right hands it could be fantastic. I don't think anyone has claimed anything other than that.

    Take off your Nintentard goggles and see reality. You seem very upset by Natal - and the only reason I can think of is because you feel threatened that the Wii-mote may not be the mainstay you feel it should be. Let's face it, though, the Wii-mote was a stepping stone to what technology is really capablle of.

  • MENTAL1ST Verified Senior Software Engineer, Picsel UK Ltd. #68 3 years ago

    But people will have forgotten all about it when it finally hits the market and turns out to be as rubbish as was apparent from the start...

    Don't you want it to succeed, if it works, and produces great new games? I certainly do, and that goes for motionplus and Sony's twin phalli as well.
    Edited by 1 at 05/06/09 @ 21:54

  • Rack #69 3 years ago

    I'm pretty skeptical about this, I imagine in the real world it will struggle to identify you even exist, let alone allow complex full body motions to be mapped into games, while simultaneously allowing developers to instantly create 20 times as much content as they do at present to allow for characters to respond to their moods.

    Anyone remember the Wii trailers? They went for a similarly big sell. What did we get? A controller that can just about tell that it's moving.

  • Les #70 3 years ago

    "Don't you want it to succeed, if it works, and produces great new games?"

    I'm happy for it to succeed if it makes games better (though TBH technical progress is starting to hurt games more than it benefits them IMO - game designers should seriously consider the less is more paradigm). But I'm not happy when cheap marketing tricks like this work. Just like I'm not happy to be reminded that a significant portion of my fellow citizens consists of idiots after every election...

  • milky_09 #71 3 years ago

    problem i see with natal is cost and accuracy. i cant see microsoft selling it for 20-30 pound. theyve clearly invested alot of money into it and will likely want to recoup that investment by whacking up the cost. as most peripherals sell for 80-100 (ie rock band/guitar hero bundles) i reckon itll likely sell for around 75 bundled with a game.

    given that the camera is based on depth i was interested in what happened with the e3 avatar screwing up. its almost like it was unable to interpret the depth/ positioning of the leg. and as a result was unable to determine where the limbs were in 3d space. also in the video it didnt actually seem that acurate. when you compare the guys movements with the avatars movements... it wasnt like it was totally accurate.

    i think its a nice concept tho. and tech wise was perhaps not as solid/ usable as ps3 wand thing.

  • The-Bodybuilder #72 3 years ago

    @ Les

    Yes les, because all games must make sure it caters to your very "unique"(old) taste before release.
    /sarcasm

  • subtlesnake #73 3 years ago

    "I'm happy for it to succeed if it makes games better (though TBH technical progress is starting to hurt games more than it benefits them IMO - game designers should seriously consider the less is more paradigm). But I'm not happy when cheap marketing tricks like this work. Just like I'm not happy to be reminded that a significant portion of my fellow citizens consists of idiots after every election..."


    But Natal's unproven nature means that Microsoft *need* to generate significant enthusiasm for it; otherwise developers won't invest and we'll never find out what its potential could be. And equally that means that Microsoft have no choice but to show off tech demos - if they knew how to best utilise the technology then their work would already be done! It's only when (if) the technology becomes mainstream, that we'll know what it's good for, but Microsoft can't get to that point without relying on visionary statements, and perhaps vacuous promises. Was that not the way with the Wii?

    Of course there's no guarantee that the technology will work as intended, but that's the case with anything. I'd hate to live in a world in which we couldn't get excited about *any* unproven advances. And in what way would this world be better if people were to cynical to invest any interest in Natal? Maybe if Natal fails, that's one less 'broken promise' but developers break hundreds of promises as it is.

    If Natal fails we'll just look back in a few years and think "remember that crazy technology demo" like we remember the countless other crazy demos that never came to fruition. But I think it's at least worth investing the effort and the imagination to explore what the technology might be able to offer, rather than just standing by the sidelines and laughing at everyone else's naivety.

  • bradgrenz #74 3 years ago

    "It's been stated numerous times in these forums that invisible steering wheels would be poor because it's unnatural to hold one's hands a set distance apart. But what if ones hands are holding the standard xbox controller. One could drive by pantomiming steering, and pivoting ones feet to accelerate and brake (I'd hope that'd work even sitting, coffee tables notwithstanding), but also have access to a full gamut of buttons for gears, weapons, etc. It could even use headtracking to make in-car viewpoints more worthwhile."

    An argument still needs to be made for why that's better than just using the trigger for gas and the analog stick for steering. Pantomiming a steering wheel has been used in racing games for a long time with both the Six Axis and Wiimote. It also remains to be seen whether the algorithms used by natal can handle foreign objects. A lot of presumptions the technology uses to construct the simple skeleton rely on standard human anatomy.

  • Rash' #75 3 years ago

    I find it ironic that certain posters on this site had difficulties believing in the potential of PS3, yet for a truly fantasy MS product like this that potential is much easier to grasp.

    Personally, as an optimist who believed in the potential of both Wii and PS3, I have no difficulties in believing in the potential of new tech that aspires to give us gamers new experiences.

    Full credit to you MS, I'm impressed and intrigued.

  • davisorle #76 3 years ago

    @JohnnyWashnGo

    "Plus, I don't see how flailing around holding, pushing, pulling imaginary objects could be an enjoyable experience. Sounds like an invitation for muscle ache to me. "

    Not only imagination ur lacking.. If holding a damn Wiimote pretending its a sword would make it so much more bettera nd realistic to you instead of nothing go grab a damn fake sword and play . Natal will still work dumbasss. Or that doesnt sound like a better option for you than a Wiimote or a wand? Id tell you to go get a knife to swing as a sword but i highly doupt you would manage the first lvl alive in whatever you might be playing.. Literally lol

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