Tech Interview: Blur

Tech wizards Steven Tovey and Charlie Birtwistle bring Bizarre's latest into focus.

Bizarre Creations' Blur is a hugely significant release for the Liverpool-based studio. The first game to be released since the company's acquisition by industry giant Activision Blizzard, it's also the firm's first racing title since the epochal Project Gotham Racing 4.

Technically way ahead of its predecessor, and indeed virtually identical cross-platform, Blur uses state-of-the-art technology to create something never seen before - a full 720p HD road racer with support for up to 20 cars on-screen simultaneously, a wide range of dynamic visual effects, plus both online and split-screen support.

Sensational to watch and hugely enjoyable to play, it's clear that Blur is a remarkable technical showcase. Bizarre Creations' graphics programmers Steven Tovey and Charlie Birtwistle were more than happy to discuss at length the story behind the game in a special, extended interview with Digital Foundry.

To cut to the chase, what we have for you here is over 5,000 words of technical nirvana backed by a batch of fresh new screenshots and cross-platform performance analysis. So without further ado...

Digital Foundry: We know that Bizarre Creations has its own Core Technology group. Can you outline the overall objectives of this team and how you integrate with the rest of Bizarre?

Steven Tovey: Sure. The core technologies group consists of specialists in physics, audio, tools, animation, rendering and some more general platform engineers. Our goal is pretty simple I would say: We want to support our game teams in realising their vision by providing the best technology and tools we can for the tasks at hand. We don't follow a producer-consumer model at Bizarre; that is to say, the engine team don't provide "releases" of the engine in the same way that you would get if you bought in middleware.

When a game is in active development we try as much as possible to become part of the game team and get involved at every level. It can be hard at times with multiple titles to support, but I think largely we do a pretty good job of this. I think the real key to the team's success though is that everyone has particular areas that they clearly excel at and then trusts the other team members to fill any gaps; we complement each other really well.

Digital Foundry: From a technical perspective, how has the Activision deal worked out for you? Bizarre obviously has its own internal technical development team, but what levels of cooperation are there amongst the other developers in the "family"?

Steven Tovey: I actually joined Bizarre after we became part of Activision, so I really couldn't say how different things are, but from a technology point of view it's all very open between the studios in the Activision and Blizzard families. We regularly communicate with guys at the other studios and share information.

It's great to be able to talk to talented people who are solving some of the same problems we are and learn from their experiences. There's certainly a lot more information flowing here than other studios I've been at in the past.

Charlie Birtwistle: We've had a really good experience with Activision on this project. When we were an independent, if you were stumped on some particularly tricky technical problem you were pretty much on your own. Now though you can fire off an email to a mailing list and the next day you'll have a bunch of ideas from some really smart people. A couple of top guys from Activision Central Tech also chipped in with some additional optimisation towards the end of the project and that was a big help as well.

Digital Foundry: We've seen Infinity Ward tech rolled out to Treyarch for Quantum of Solace and their Call of Duty games. Is part of your brief that the technologies and engines you create could be shared among your fellow studios?

Steven Tovey: No, it's not part of our brief. We create technology first and foremost for the titles being developed in-house. There's certainly no mandate passed down to us from Activision that tells us our technology has to be interoperable with anything other studios create, but if the other teams can take something we've done and make their games a bit better then that's fine with us, and hopefully better for the player too.

This type of loose and organic collaboration is beneficial to all the studios involved and the simple fact of the matter is we'd be silly not to take part.

Digital Foundry: In previous interviews about Blur, we've heard how the game designers had to radically rethink for their first post-Gotham racing game. Was there a similarly fresh approach technology-wise? Surely much of what you developed in Gotham must have given you a boost in developing Blur?

Charlie Birtwistle: It's definitely true that a lot of the technical challenges we faced in developing Blur we had already solved previously for Gotham. We had a solid racing physics model which we could use and we had a lot of experience in other complex areas such as level streaming, which is essential for racing games.

But even though we had a competent rendering engine from PGR4, we couldn't have used it for Blur. This was because it was single-threaded renderer which was written for 360, porting it to PS3 would have been very difficult, and anyway it was pretty much at its limits with eight cars and no other dynamic objects on track.

This wouldn't be good enough for Blur, so we took everything we learned from the PGR engine and also our experience on The Club and started from scratch on a new rendering engine which would take full advantage of the 360 and PS3s multi-core architecture.

This new engine, which we've dubbed "Horizon", is what we're using on Blur. So, whereas on PGR4 we would generally spend 15+ms rendering on one CPU, with Horizon we now spend more like 5-8ms doing rendering across all cores/SPUs simultaneously, and we're rendering a lot more stuff than we ever did in PGR.

Getting our render code small enough to fit into the modest memory you have on a PS3 SPU was certainly a challenge, but was essential for decent performance on PS3.

Digital Foundry: Let's talk about your lighting model as it's one of the most astonishing things about the game. Before talking about the technical specifics, what was your brief from a conceptual standpoint?

Steven Tovey: The concept called for a dusk/dawn setting, with lots of high contrast and dynamic lighting and 20 cars all with headlights and brake lights. The pre-visualisation for the power-ups was really exciting and something we wanted to help bring to life in real-time with the lighting in the game. The design of Blur's rendering engine was accordingly architected to deliver the artistic vision for the game.

Digital Foundry: You seem capable of handling a phenomenal amount of dynamic lights. Are you using a deferred rendering technique, or something fundamentally different?

Steven Tovey: We're using the light pre-pass rendering paradigm for Blur. It's similar in essence to the approach taken by Uncharted, Ratchet and Clank, GTA IV and others.

Light pre-pass rendering is basically rendering everything you need to perform your lighting calculations in a first pass, performing the lighting in image space and then compositing this during the rendering on the main view in a second pass. It has many of the advantages of deferred rendering, but without some of the more crippling limitations.

The main advantage to light pre-pass rendering is that it decouples the shading cost of lighting from scene complexity, allowing us to push the required volume of dynamic lights that a game like Blur requires.

Quoting a number of unique dynamic lights we could handle is basically a pointless metric by which to compare dynamic lighting solutions, there is no hard upper limit on what we support, it comes down to the budgets for each title. It's worth pointing out that Blur also has a very heavy static half to its lighting, so it's important we were careful when compositing the main view and the deferred lighting buffer.

Digital Foundry: You've talked in your previous tech presentations about your "free" lighting system with the SPUs in Blur. Surely there's no such thing as a free lunch when it comes to rendering! What's the secret?

Steven Tovey: [Laughs] "Free" was probably a bad choice of word to put in those slides in retrospect. Of course nothing is free; you're always paying for it somewhere. What I meant was, the lighting didn't add any time to the length of the frame as it's performed in parallel on the SPUs with other non-dependent rendering tasks.

Digital Foundry: There's a direct bus linking Cell and its magical SPUs to the RSX. How do you utilise the advantages of this in Blur?

Steven Tovey: This bus is very important in a lot of SPU-assisted rendering where you have the SPUs working on RSX-created resources and vice versa. You just have to be very careful with how you manage memory for this type of work.

Comments (60) Latest comment 2 years ago

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  • KillerMonkey #1 2 years ago

    Great interview, thanks!
  • Judas_Priest #2 2 years ago

    Yep, that was informative, I just kinda wish they talked a bit more about the 360 as a lot of the disucssion ended up centred around the PS3.
  • ph0b0z #3 2 years ago

    I just wish Rockstar had such good software engineers on the ps3 side.. or do they? :)
    Anyway interesting interview even if i only have a poor imaginaton of half the stuff they're talking about.. ;)
    Edited by ph0b0z at 29/05/10 @ 10:27
  • Guitarnerd87 #4 2 years ago

    Great article! Gave a good insight into the differences between 360/ps3, interesting to hear the ps3 had an edge blur the face off didn't see! It's a good example of the developer playing to each systems strengths, higher AA on 360, edge detection + blur on ps3, the way multi-plat should be!
  • Pasco #5 2 years ago

    Good article. I still won't buy the game because it only runs with 30FPS. A greater amount of cars in the game doesn't do it for me, the right feel does it.

    edit:
    Yes, feel free to rate me down. Doing it just because you place less importance on framerates than me doesn't make you look like an idiot at all. Noone should be allowed to prefer high framerates.
    Edited by Pasco at 29/05/10 @ 11:43
  • Bagpuss #6 2 years ago

    Man...this article is way to heavy for a saturday morning......had to stop after page 1, but i'll defo come back to it later when my brain has woken up....

  • Alkeno #7 2 years ago

    Terrific interview, the Bizarre guys really did a good job with Blur. They really showed that a good team with great discipline can get a multiplatform title right with very little PS3 experience (just The Club.) I've always wondered why most devs don't implement this kind of dynamic LOD approach (if the load is increasing towards 33ms, reduce detail on non-noticeable assets and effects), but guess it's quite hard to implement right and must be thought from the start.

    Also, maybe it's the first time I've seen a developer admit that it's game could run at 60fps most of the time, but that they had to limit it to 30fps so that the heaviest scenes remained silk-smooth. Most developers would say something like "We cannot accept having the GPU idling so much, we wouldn't be pushing the hardware and the game wouldn't look as good" and end up with a game that tears like crazy and has its framerate jumping between 50fps and 20fps...

    However, it's a pity that their choices have made Blur kind of the new Halo 3: Great graphics from the technical side of things, but only appreciated by DF followers that understand dynamic lighting and smooth framerates. Most reviewers around are beating Blur pretty hard for having bland graphics, and surely most users as well... I hope that Blur does well in the store but I'm afraid that sales don't usually go well on racing titles that don't look great, and Blur is facing against the impressive looking demolition circus that is Split/Second...
  • Cheapshot #8 2 years ago

    The way multi-platform development should be.

    Maybe they didn't talk much about the 360 version because there isn't much to say...? I mean it's pretty standard and uncomplicated hardware compared to the PS3 and it seems they had a far more interesting time with the PS3 and all that.
  • DoctorFouad #9 2 years ago

    Thank you Digital Foundry for all those interesting technical interviews with developers !

    I love them !
  • dominalien #10 2 years ago

    Yeah, they talk a lot about the PS3 and how the SPUs are fantastic and powerful, but clearly the X360 can do the exact same thing without the SPUs, since the two versions are identical?

    The only comparison they make is that "the PS3 could push more lights", but clearly they didn't use this added potential. All in all, I got a strange impression that they're sort of validating the PS3 as a powerful machine which "can do all the x360 can and maybe more", whereas the X360's power goes without saying.
  • jaxon58 #11 2 years ago

  • Cheapshot #12 2 years ago

    "All in all, I got a strange impression that they're sort of validating the PS3 as a powerful machine which "can do all the x360 can and maybe more", whereas the X360's power goes without saying."

    But that is the case. In the interview it's said that they could do all of the fancy effects with the superior GPU of the 360 and everything was done in a pretty "standard" way, but with the PS3 they had to use the Cell to pull off all of the post processing effects, lighting etc. to make up the deficit of the crappier GPU. 360 is pretty straight talking hardware - hence it's more boring to talk about, what's the problem?
  • survivalism #13 2 years ago

    bloody great interview! its good to see a studio that takes this sort of approach to cross platform development!
  • swisstony #14 2 years ago

    "I've always wondered why most devs don't implement this kind of dynamic LOD approach (if the load is increasing towards 33ms, reduce detail on non-noticeable assets and effects), but guess it's quite hard to implement right and must be thought from the start. "

    Most other devs do this.
  • Machetazo #15 2 years ago

    Because the only publicly available content pre-release was on Xbox 360, I think it stands to reason that people would be interested to learn how the lessons learned on that platform translated across to PS3 (also because, traditionally in Face Offs, it is the Xbox 360 version of a game that has higher praise. ), and then alterations made for the PS3 benefitted the other versions. No one version existed in a vaccuum, so the end result is high performance on each platform (as has been mentioned, playing to strengths).

    That's the story that's being told here, how Bizarre were able to buck the trend impressively, and ensure all customers got the most enjoyable gameplay experience from their game. The article also highlights improvements that could be made in future to make the most of the PC platform as it currently stands, and don't forget that there was the commentary on the quality of the GOW tech that they hope to investigate, and ideas to incorporate on any future titles.

    So, this isn't a pro-Sony article in the least, it is in fact a PRO-GAMING article - and with a media often caught up with negativity I say that I'm very pleased to se articles of this type, and appreciate the members of Bizarre Creations for discussing their work, in as much detail as readers wish to read.
    Edited by Machetazo at 29/05/10 @ 12:02
  • Feanor #16 2 years ago

    "the problem with developing for Cell is just the problem with writing multi-core systems in general. It's not really that much harder than coding for any other multi-core architecture when you get down to it."

    Gabe Newellol.
  • chaywa #17 2 years ago

    "There's little doubt that both the Cell and the 360 GPU were ahead of their time"

    lolwut
  • DoctorFouad #18 2 years ago

    Please Richard Leadbetter after this incredible interview ! I want you to ask developers in the future these questions :

    1- I really wanna know what is the approach taken by developrs for texture filtering, i believe the image shimmering and aliasing(especially for trasparent textures) are due to lack of adavnced texture filtering (absence of anisortropic filtering for example) thats why even with 4x AA, a lot of objects in the image are still aliased and shimmering (Blur, GT5 prologue). so ahaving anti aliasing is just part of the solution.
    For example which amount of texture filtering are using for Blur ? i am sure it is not 8x anisotropic filtering...

    2- I really wanna know what is the texture resolution used on games nowadays (I mean the standard, because of course artists use different texture resolutions for different objects in the game depending on their importance), I believe a lot of games are using 1024*1024 texture resolutions (Killzone 2 for example) But I am sure other games are using inferior texture resolution resulting also on pretty bad aliased images especially at the distance...(The clean razor sharp look for God of war 3 is due not only to morphological anti aliasing but also to excellent texture filtering and some incredible high quality 2048*2048 textures like in Kratos itself which very rare in other games)

    So in short, please in the future ask about : texture filtering techniques, and texture resolutions
    360 and ps3 games are really lacking in those 2 areas.

    edit :

    concerning PS3 hardware vs 360 hardware, we have a lot of evidence for :

    1- the 360 GPU (xenos) is more powerful than the PS3 GPU (RSX) by a wide margin, due mainly the very high bandwidth of the xenos edram (256 GO/S).

    Blur is a great exemple of that :
    for PS3 : lighting is done on CELL and only 2x anti aliasing + the CELL is helping the RSX in vertex calculation, all this to obtain the same performance of the 360 version !where the 360 GPU is handling by itself the lighting and eny vertex calculations and still ahcieving more anti aliasing 4X AA ! Thats just incredible a show for the xenos power VS RSX power !

    2- the PS3 CPU (CELL) is far more powerful than the Xbox360 CPU (Xenon)
    it is really incredible for example in GOW3 that the CELL is handling by itself the Morphological anti aliasing + all the post processing effects (per object and per camera motion blur, depth of field, colorization,...) + vertex calculations...etc it is simply impossible to do all this with the 360 CPU

    But overall i believe that when pushed to the maximum the PS3 hardware could achieve things simply impossible with 360 (I predict killzone 3, uncharted 3 will really show this compared to gears of war 3)

    what I find incredible for the PS3 hardware is that because the CELL is actually helping the RSX (and working with it in harmony) this really frees bandwidth and memory for the RSX so the RSX could really be pushed to new heights in terms of texture quality and pixel shaders !

    so the difference of power between RSX and xenos is really reduced, because the RSX has enough bandwidth and specializing in doing what it does best instead of doing everything like xenos ! resulting in the RSX doing things impossible to do in Xenos (for example : GT5 1280*1080 2x AA 60 fps with 400 000 polygons per car 12-16 casrs per track with incredible lighting and texture quality, is simply impossible and overkill for xenos)

    the bottleneck of ps3 is the GPU RAM bandwoidth (being only 20.6 GO/s instead of the 40 GO/s+ bandwidth of the 7800 GTX) + having only 8 ROPs (instead of 16 ROPs for the nvidea 7800 GTX), but both have 8 vertex shading units, and 24 pixel shading units (RSX running at 500 MHZ, the 7800 gtx running at 550 mhz)

    so the RSX is really constrained by the lack of bandwidth and ROP units, resulting in huge performance hits when drawing a lot of polygons, or doing anti aliasing, per pixel precise post processing effects...the potential processing power of the RSX is there but hugely constrained by bandwidth...the solution ? if only there is a way to free bandwidth...and to help those 8 ROPs !

    and here comes the CELL !!! (thats why I believe Kutaragi thought of the CELL + RSX as working together)

    doing post processing effects by the CELL (motion blur, depth of field, colorization, anti aliasing...) this frees a lot of bandwidth for RSX, the 20.6 GO/s are no longer contraining the processing power of the 24 pixel shaders ! for the 8 ROPs and only 8 vertext sheders, calculating polygons and vertices by the CELL would help the RSX keeping up with huge number of polygons, freeing bandwidth, memory and allowing the RSX to process higher quality textures and pixel shaders ! genius !

    thats what all developers should do ! (and what first party developrs are doing on PS3)
    I really hope developers would lear from uncharted 2, Killzone 2 and god of war 3 !


    Edited by DoctorFouad at 29/05/10 @ 14:15
  • Tetsuo_Shima #19 2 years ago

    Pasco: "I still won't buy the game because it only runs with 30FPS. A greater amount of cars in the game doesn't do it for me, the right feel does it. "

    The silky, stable 30fps of Blur is almost imperceptibly jerkier than the 60fps of WipeoutHD (to me), and, I would say, more than worth the sacrifice for the 20-car mayhem that goes on. But, hey!

    As an aside: buy this game, it is brilliant.
    Edited by Tetsuo_Shima at 29/05/10 @ 14:25
  • NimbusTLD #20 2 years ago

    Great interview! I particularly enjoyed reading how the Cell's SPUs are used to achieve cross-platform parity.
  • Calgon #21 2 years ago

    "But that is the case. In the interview it's said that they could do all of the fancy effects with the superior GPU of the 360 and everything was done in a pretty "standard" way, but with the PS3 they had to use the Cell to pull off all of the post processing effects, lighting etc. to make up the deficit of the crappier GPU. 360 is pretty straight talking hardware - hence it's more boring to talk about, what's the problem? "

    I'd have to disagree with that, as someone who has heard from experts in 360 hardware the "standard" way isn't the best way to do things on 360 either but its not easy doing it the other way and for a title such as this it worked out ok. Im suprised actually that PGR4's engine wasn't even multi-threaded, it shows maybe Sony's approach of pushing devs in the right direction, telling them when they aren't doing enough advancements on the tech side ect has worked out for them alot better than MS' relaxed approach.

    It seems although they have someone who specialises in PS3 tech/hardware on their team, they dont have a 360 equivalent(theres nothing special they've done for the 360 here by the sounds of the interview other than multithreading) but I suppose it would be hard to justify since they do have alot more experience with 360 hardware.

    My point is on the CPU side they have done alot more work for Cell than they have Xenon, there's so much more they could have done on the 360 side but their reluctance to mention it sounds to me like they dont have the expertise/knowlege to pull it off yet, theres plenty of Cell/SPU work been done already that Bizarre were able to learn from but it seems everyone is still doing things the "standard" way on 360 so the reverse isn't true. Atleast the renderer/engine is fully multi-threaded now and they do seem to know how Xenos ticks too.
    Edited by Calgon at 29/05/10 @ 18:12
  • spammage #22 2 years ago

    Brilliant article. I went out and bought it on PS3 this afternoon off the back of it. I've been fancying a racer for a while and Split / Second didn't grab. Blur doesn't disappoint!

    Did I read someone saying they wouldn't buy a racing game because it was locked to 30fps, have you any idea how ridiculous you sound? You don't know you're born sunshine.
  • martin1841 #23 2 years ago

    I just dont get it. DF is amazed by graphic technology in Blur. To me game looks very bad. I mean it "very bad".
    PGR4 looks much better for God sake than Blur.
  • Darren #24 2 years ago

    Interesting interview. I'm really enjoying the game on the PC, it's really addictive, so it would have been nice to have some info about that version too but the stuff about the console technology was a great read nevertheless.
  • Quixz #25 2 years ago

    @martin1841

    PGR4 did not have 20 cars and 4x AA.
  • Lee_Morris #26 2 years ago

    Got to say even though some of the real down the bone tech bits flew over my head, it was an damn interesting article to read. I love how with EG you get the standard (but class) reviews on games then these follow up articles on the DF which primarily delve into the tech but do seem to give a voice to some of of the behind the scene guys.

    I got a real sense that the programmers, artists and producers really seemed to build up this title together and created what, by the sounds of things, is a really well rounded, solid game. All this love I've heard for the game has actually pushed me to order it just now, having it not even in my radar 2 weeks ago.

    PS it'd be ace if you could get your voice on the podcast soon Richard.
  • hesido #27 2 years ago

    I wish the game had a 60fps mode, with their scalable engine, I should have been able to choose a 60 fps experience..

    Edit: Also, as some people here mention, this interview proves Xenos beats the crap out of RSX, and that choosing Nvidia was a mistake for Sony. Imagine Xenos + Cell. Let's say you can calculate 100000 particles with cell, but if you cannot draw it on the screen, what good is it? Plus, Nvidia was lying about how unified architecture wasn't viable pre-2006, but few months after releasing RSX, they came up with unified video cards for the PC.
    Edited by hesido at 29/05/10 @ 23:11
  • pyquila #28 2 years ago

    Got the game a few hours ago after reading this interview.

    Don't regret it. But still not sure this is the best they could have done. UI is amazing, lighting effects are gorgeous. Rest of the graphics are fine but nothing too special. Still not sure on using real life cars. Gameplay, esp multiplayer, is really fun. But somehow i get the urge to play either Gotham 4 and/or Wipeout HD.
  • DoctorFouad #29 2 years ago

    @hesido :

    I agree that sony could have used a more powerful GPU solution for its ps3, but that would have been very expensive...

    lets not forget that the RSX is not the problem or the bottleneck for the PS3, it is the RAM associated to it (a 20.6 GO/s very limited bandwidth) if xenos had only this bandwidth, I would even say that RSX is more powerful...

    But the xenos has a 10 mo edram (256 GO/s bandwidth) ps2 had 4 mo edram (with 48 GO/s bandwidth) sony didnt choose edram for ps3 because it is expensive and very difficult to reduce costs over time.

    I believe today the RSX cost much less than xenos. (maybe 40$ vs 80$ ? beause of edram)

    I think kutaragi thought of ps3 as a whole system, he knew the bandwidth would limit the RSX but he thought the CELL + xdram (25.6 go/s) linked to the RSX via a bus flexIO of 50 go/s would help the RSX and overcome this bandwidth issue...all this to reduce the alrady prohibitive costs of ps3 because of CELL + Blu ray + hard disk...was he right ? he was fired lol the ps3 launched at 600 $, the RSX was bandwidth limited unclike xenos which explains 360 multiplatform games performance superiority...but maybe time will prove kutaragi right after all...

    the cost of PS3 is decreasing rapidly (the CELL is cheaper than ever, the RSX very cheap, the slow ram almost costs nothing and blu ray diodes as cheap as they could ever they cost almost like DVD diodes...)

    VS the more expensive Xenos for 360 due to edram...

    well maybe kutaragi was a genius and was thinking ahead of its time, he knew the PS3 taken as a whole (CELL + RSX) is far more powerful than xbox360 taken as a whole (xenos + xenon) and he designed the ps3 so costs could be very easily reduced over time...maybe he was right after all lol
  • martin1841 #30 2 years ago

    @Quixz
    "PGR4 did not have 20 cars and 4x AA"

    You think it should? 20 cars? Why so few? I want 60 cars.
    So GT will have 26 cars pfff i want 60 cars! Gvie me racing game with 60 cars on screen.
  • womble #31 2 years ago

    Fantastic interview DF. Really good stuff. Thanks!
  • Alkeno #32 2 years ago

    DoctorFouad, I agree with most things you are saying as they makes sense. A couple of + karma points to your posts.

    However, I must admit that I don't like the PS3 architecture and its consequences on game design. No matter how powerful the PS3 ends up being at the end... Maybe, after all this years, the PS3 will end up being able to push better graphics than the 360. It only takes developers get the huge grasp coding for such a multithreaded beast made of one PPU and seven SPU so that they can use the Cell to offload the RSX. Of course, in that scenario RSX's limited power and memory bandwidth becomes less of an issue... but... Why are developers forced to program in such a complex way on the first place?

    I truly understand guys like Gabe Newell, gaming evolved 15 years ago when graphic accelerators became mainstream. Forcing current devs to use the overpowered overparalel CPU to make up for the mediocre GPU feels wrong. Like fitting a Ferrari with the latest 1000BHP truck diesel engine and telling the pilots "just forget all you knew about driving sports cars, you're now driving a monster truck that redlines at 4000rpm". Yes, it would be fast, but that's just wrong... and your pilots wouldn't be happy at all.

    At the end of the day first party devs do good programming on the PS3 because the don't have a choice and third party end up doing it as well because, err, money. But I feel that a huge amount of resources from developers are being spent just on dealing with PS3's architecture rather than doing good games. This interview shows that Bizarre did a great job, and it all boils down to: "The 360 game was done easily and its development was unremarkable, however we had to do a great deal of unconventional stuff just to make the PS3 game look almost as good... and we succeeded! horray! the PS3 version didn't suck!"

    I have always felt that Sony could have just used a good CPU, a good GPU and a good DVD drive. It would have been twice as cheap, arrived on schedule, deliver great graphics from day one, wouldn't made Sony lose so much money so that they need to try to squeeze a 10 years lifespan out of a poor console AND devs would have been happy to do things the normal way and used their resources for making good games.

    I might be wrong, of course, I'm no videogame analyst, but it seems Sony chose to win the format wars agains HD-DVD and push The Mighty Cell down our throats rather than make a good and sensible machine. And, as an engineer, that kind of reasoning just makes me angry beyond forgiveness.

    And, Sony defenders don't worry, I also believe Microsoft blew it big time. They did their console in a sensible way... but forgot about manufacturing quality and caused the RRoD. Don't get me started on RRoD...

    Rant over. Had a bad day.
  • womble #33 2 years ago

    Please DF, please, do a tech interview with the guys on Geometry Wars 2! I'd love to know how they do some of that stuff. (Seriously!)
  • BuckEntropy #34 2 years ago

    @DoctorFouad - I hope you took a bath after shoveling all that. The setup was impressive, I bet a lot of people thought it sounded reasonable and objective even. But all just a lead up to saying "PS3 taken as a whole... is far more powerful than xbox360 taken as a whole" in the end. And all of this based on astounding ideas like Cell somehow "freeing bandwidth, memory and allowing the RSX to process higher quality textures and pixel shaders" and then this little gem -

    "lets not forget that the RSX is not the problem or the bottleneck for the PS3, it is the RAM associated to it (a 20.6 GO/s very limited bandwidth) if xenos had only this bandwidth, I would even say that RSX is more powerful... "

    Really, the ONLY reason Xenos is more powerful than the RSX is because of the eDRAM? And just how did you come up with that phenomenal idea? No actually forget that, I don't think I want to know...

    -

    But anyway, a very informative article. Though to echo Calgon somewhat, it's irritating to see them basically admit that for their entire time as a 360 exclusive dev, they didn't even have a multi-threaded engine. I mean, again, wasn't it always supposed to be the PS3 devs who're lazy?!? *sigh*

    And it seems like a game like this would be a perfect showcase for an engine designed around the tesellator... but great job finally getting your act in gear for multi-platform work Bizarre, I guess.
  • womble #35 2 years ago

    @hesido "I should have been able to choose a 60 fps experience.. "

    Did you read the article? They couldn't guarantee 60fps so they locked to 30. i.e. they're smart, and practical.

  • toy_brain #36 2 years ago

    I've nothing much to add other than another 'Awesome interview Rich, keep up the good work'.

    I think I'll have another read of the Split/Second interview. Y'know, for a bit of compare-and-contrast.
  • hesido #37 2 years ago

    @womble: Yes I did read it, that's why I understand, by disabling some render targets (like static reflections instead of realtime reflections, simpler shaders etc etc) they managed to get it working closer to 60fps with 4 views on screen.

    No sane developer would lock at 30 when their engine could run at 60 at the same fidelity, they wouldn't make it run slower for the fun of it! Of course that's why they had to go with 30. But if I could choose a lowfidelity 60fps version, that would be nice (that their engine is scalable)
  • DoctorFouad #38 2 years ago

    @Alkeno :

    Thanks for your very interesting comment and your karma ! (me too I added points to your posts)

    Concerning the architecture of PS3 I would say at the short run it is a catastrophic design and thats why kutaragi lost his interesting job LOL a console arriving a year after the competition with a less powerful GPU, graphically inferior mutiplatform games, and costing 700+ $ to produce selling for 600$ with huge shortages (losing potential buyers) and causing the very hurtful European delay…it cant be any worse than that poor kutaragi… lol

    But if we think at the long run benefits of the strategy of kutaragi, things look very different :

    1-The Blu-ray player of ps3 (the main cause for the shortages at launch) allowed sony to win the Blu-ray vs HD DVD war, just imagine how much money sony is making with royalties for each blu ray disk shipped in the world ! that’s a huge money for the long run business of sony…(maybe 20 cents$ per blu ray disk I assume or even more !) + a blu ray player today is not costing a lot more than a DVD player costs of blu ray laser diodes decreased very rapidly !

    2-The CELL processor of PS3 allowed technically superior games for PS3 (GT5 prologue, Killzone 2, Uncharted 2, God of war 3 and in the future God only knows what the ps3 is capable of doing if used very efficiently and pushed too hard !) that has given for consumers the image of a technically superior console ! for a consumer today buying a ps3 = buying the most powerful console in the market, that’s a huge marketing advantage, resulting in more ps3 sells if the ps3 didn’t have the CELL. + having a powerful CPU allowed the ps3 to improve hugely the graphics and technology of games for each generation, that means a prolonged life cycle for the system (10 year plan for example)

    3- when games like killzone 3 and uncharted 3 would be released in 2011 at that time xbox 360 games would seem simply technically outdated (gears of war 3 wont be graphically and technically a huge improvement over gears of war 2 like gears of war 2 wasent a huge improvement over gears of war 1) but uncharted 1 vs uncharted 2 is a different story…

    4- in short when it comes to selling a product it all comes down to consumers perception of that product, having the CELL = more impressive looking games (+ ability to play blu rays and playing online for free and having a hard disk) = perception for consumers of a better console = buying !

    5- So in the short run the xbox360 strategy is more viable, but in the long run I believe the ps3 strategy would prove to be more successful (it is like investment), if we look at sales, the ps3 sales are progressing while 360 sales are regressing (actually the ps3 is outselling the 360 in Europe by an important margin and in the US they are more head to head than ever before, by 2011 I believe the ps3 would outsell 360 in US) and I don’t believe PS3 would have achieved all this without the (CELL + Blu Ray + Hard disk + free online + expensive first party games development) very expensive and risky COMBO which were the causes of PS3 catastrophic beginning..but now ARE the causes of PS3 success…

    So maybe after all Kutaragi wasn’t that stupid and crazy guy lol and instead he was a genius visionary man who merits more respect and recognition than what people are willing to give him ! and time would prive this !
  • HokutoNoKen #39 2 years ago

    Xbox 360 10Mb eDRAM can limit a game to 30 fps as tiling is not recommanded (because the more tiles the slower its gets) when you have a framebuffer that exceeds the 10 Mb and the aim is 60fps. As this game is rendered in 1280x720 with 4xAA you have no choice other then to use tiling. Compare this to the following games and their framebuffers:

    Bayonetta (360) 0xAA @ 60fps:
    1280x720 * (32/8 + 32/8) = 7 372 800 = 7Mb

    Ninja Gaiden 2 (360) 2xAA @ 60 fps:
    1120x585 * 2 * (32/8 + 32/8) = 10 483 200 = 9,9975Mb

    Both games fit the 10Mb EDRAM as the framebuffer NEVER exceeds the 10 Mb limit.

    Compared to...

    Ninja Gaiden Sigma 2 : 1280x720x2MSAA = 14 Mb @ 60fps.
    Wipeout HD 1920x1080 no AA which has a framebuffer reaching 15.8Mb @ 60fps
    Ridge Racer 7 1920x1080 no AA @ 60 fps the same as Wipeout HD.
    Gran Turismo 5 P. 1280x1080 with 2xAA or 1280x720 with 4xAA both @ 60 fps.

    / Ken
    Edited by HokutoNoKen at 14/06/10 @ 09:01
  • uzivatel #40 2 years ago

    I dont see how mentioning two 60fps Xbox 360 games helps to support your argument.
    Having 720p+60fps+2xAA sounds more like the problem, but AA is not used even in many 30fps games and not having it in 60fps games should not be much of an issue.
    Then again, I believe Turn10 did 720p+60fps+2xAA in both Forza games on the Xbox 360 and Capcom did the same in SFIV and DMC4.
  • BuckEntropy #41 2 years ago

    But you see, people like HokutoNoKen and DoctorFouad live by the motto "never let the facts get in the way of a good story". So I'm sure that will have no effect on the likelihood of Ken spewing the same shit many more times uzivatel...

    And you beat me to it. ;)
  • DoctorFouad #42 2 years ago

    @android123 :

    So you believe the best game this year is red dead redemption and it is better on 360, well let me tell you that I think the best game this year is simply mass effect 2 and it is EXCLUSIVE to 360 (mass effect 1 was one of the best games ever created, but still my best game ever is shenmue on dreamcast), and yes I agree with you that the 360 is till today the best console this generation, I had more fun and great moments with my 360 than with my ps3 (gears of war 1, bioshock 1, assassins creed 1, mass effect 1, geometry wars 1, I even finished Halo 1 and 2 and shenmue 2 on my 360 ! and I prefer the 360 controller over my PS3 controller ! the online of 360 is also far better than the online of ps3, I love inviting people in-game and cross-games, I love chat in every game…) there is no doubt for me till today 360 is the best choice for gamers.

    (EDIT : TILL TODAY, before GT5, The new Team ico game, little big planet 2...and other ps3 exclsuives this years that will add up God of war 3, Heavy rain, ModNation Racers...)

    Are you satisfied now ? so now I must work for sony and Microsoft at the same time lol

    I am a gamer, I love video games and I don’t care in which hardware ! actually I had more fun and great moments with my dreamcast than with my ps2 ! (shenmue being for me the best video game most revolutionary video game ever created !!! I loved the fun of crazy taxy, I loved soul calibur 1, virtua tennis, ready to rumble, MSR,…etc ! I even believe the best console ever created was the dreamcast ! it was a pure console for gamers ! the Fun factor was unparalled to anything before or after it ! even N64, PS1, SNES, Mega drive, ATARI…nothing comes close to the fun and incredible moments of my life I spent with my dreamcast !

    I also consider half Life 2 on PC one of the best games ever created !

    Sigh…

    Ok now to return to your arguments :

    1- NO the emotion engine wasn’t rubbish, far from it…it was an incredible processor, a gem for ps2 hardware…it allowed MGS2 incredible 60 fps graphics ! it allowed GT3 ! it allowed jak and daxter ! it even allowed things people thought impossible on PS2 : JAK 3 (incredible technology 60 fps total streaming, huge levels, beautiful crisp graphics…) GT4 (60 fps and better graphics than Forza 1 on xbox1 which ran at only 30 fps) and God of War 1 and 2 (simply the best action games graphics last gen ! nothing comes close on xbox1 !) if you want the answer to this question : how ps2 dated hardware and GPU and insufficient RAM compared to xbox1 managed games like : Jak3 (60 fps), GT4 (60 fps) and GOW1/2 (30-60 fps) that would make xbox1 suffer ?!!! I would say in confidence and without any doubt : Emotion Engine

    2- saying uncharted 2 is not that improved technically compared to uncharted 1 is simply WRONG, you could ask any developer and almost any gamer who finished the two games and they would all tell you that is insane to say what you are saying…

    3- also for killzone 3 vs killzone 2, if Guerilla are telling the truth, killzone 3 would be a huge improvement technically over killzone 2 : 10 times bigger levels ! more destructible environments ! better AI ! more responsive less lag controls !...

    I believe that like PS2, ps3 will see games that people would say impossible to do on ps3…maybe killzone 3 would be one of those games, maye uncharted 3 or maybe a new santa monica game, or maybe motorstorm 3, or resistance 3…or maybe a new surprise like god of war 1 was a surprise for PS2 (when people thought the ps2 has done everything it could, god of war 1 took gamers by surprise) I hope we will see something surprising this E3….why I expect ps3 could do all this ? CELL
    Edited by DoctorFouad at 31/05/10 @ 07:40
  • MaxiSleep #43 2 years ago

    @DoctorFouad

    Have both a 360 and a ps3. Have seen no evidence whatever to support your views of superiority for the ps3.

    It is a much quieter machine, otherwise the 360 seams better on stuff I have seen to date.

    And GT Prologue looks pretty average imo. Grid kicks its arse in the looks department.
  • BuckEntropy #44 2 years ago

    'The Doctor doth protest too much, methinks'

    Why do they keep reminding me of these quotes? *shrug*

    But the irony just keeps building. Although PS2 was capable of some impressive geometry output, in practice the only serious advantage it had over XBOX was from it's own eDRAM. Which as we all know is an advantage 360 gets this gen. But PS2 and PS3 seem to share one characteristic, they both have that very brute force design philosophy, and both tend to yield mediocre results for the relative exertion in comparison to theoretically inferior platforms. Dreamcast was at best half the 'power' of PS2, with much less RAM, yet could still exceed PS2 in many areas, even texture quality. But there were some amazing PS2 showcases all the same.

    Just as there are already some great showcases for PS3, but again, (and if you give any credence to devs like Naughty Dog claiming they are running the SPU's at near 100%) in practice it appears that the PS3 needs to leverage all of that extra theoretical processing power just to meet the same rendering metrics as the 'inferior' platform? Three of the usual suspects (KZ2, UC2, GoW3) all get a massive boost from their content and production, which is only smart, Sony needs to justify that Blu-Ray somehow. And GT5, which I have no doubt will look even better when the full game releases, is still the same animal as it always was. No one does *that* better than Polyphony Digital, but just as with the PS2 games, the compromises in other areas in order to focus on the car detail is fully apparent. Look beyond the impeccable facades and well, I just haven't seen this magical power manifest yet, sorry.

    Since I'm on the subject of irony, and since the good doctor wont stop subjecting us to his alternative reality: you know that whole idea about the Cell "freeing bandwidth" for the RSX? Well in the first place (as best I can understand it) the reverse would be the case, the load of Cell taking on more vertex processing only cuts into the bandwidth that could be used to feed assets (textures) to the RSX from the CPU's own memory. But even assuming the details added up to something that wasn't nonsense (in the first place), the RSX has fixed function pixel shaders, and therefore a fixed fillrate. It's all the more indecent to see this sort of BS in this thread since the article itself makes the point...

    "Basically any rendering tasks that are not implicitly tied to the rasterizer such as lighting and post-processing are going to benefit from the SPUs, but there are trade-offs to be made in other areas to get those benefits."

    As in, the pixel shading is tied to the rasterizer, get it? And those shaders have a hard fillrate limit... whereas, if RSX had unified shaders, you (almost) could have had something resembling a point there; you know, unified shaders like the 'inferior' Xenos? ;)

    I'm about convinced that Fouad is actually a Witch Doctor... when it comes to the PS3 at least, everything is voodoo.
  • HokutoNoKen #45 2 years ago

    @uzivatel
    "I dont see how mentioning two 60fps Xbox 360 games helps to support your argument.
    Having 720p+60fps+2xAA sounds more like the problem, but AA is not used even in many 30fps games and not having it in 60fps games should not be much of an issue.
    Then again, I believe Turn10 did 720p+60fps+2xAA in both Forza games on the Xbox 360 and Capcom did the same in SFIV and DMC4."


    720p with 2xAA will get you a 14Mb framebuffer which will exceed the 10Mb limit so yes it will give you a problem especially if the aim is 60 fps, I thought it was understood by my first post. If you re-read my post I am not saying that it will not work. It is recommanded to avoid exceeding the 10Mb limit. Dantes inferno is 1280x720 with no AA @ 60 fps so its another example. For games such as DMC4 or SF4 they are quite simple in their nature when it comes to polygons, textures, lightning etc.

    / Ken
    Edited by HokutoNoKen at 31/05/10 @ 09:01
  • DoctorFouad #46 2 years ago

    @Android123, Maxisleep, BuckEntropy :

    1- First of all, let me clarify things so I don’t get misunderstood : I edited my previous comment : there is no doubt for me till today 360 is the best choice for gamers. (EDIT : TILL TODAY, before GT5, The new Team ico game, little big planet 2...and other ps3 exclsuives this years that will add up to God of war 3, Heavy rain, ModNation Racers...) As I said I consider 360 more of a short run investment compared to PS3 project (360 reliability ROD problems due to using cheap components, 360 not having a built in WiFi, nor a standard Hard Disk, No HD optical disc player, PAYING Online service, NO push for innovation in exclusive first party games (halo and halo and halo..and look what happened to RARE in the hands of Microsoft…compare this to sony first party studios…) I believe the PS3 strategy would work better in the long run than 360 strategy, so yes in 2006, 2007 and 2008, 360 was a must buy for any serious console gamer…but today not anymore with a cheaper ps3 (with a hard disk, wifi, free online, blu ray player…) and games like little big planet, killzone2, uncharted 2, god of war 3, Heavy Rain, GT5, LBP2, the new team ico game,…and maybe the surprise technically this E3 : the getaway (I was waiting for it !)


    2- As for “you know that whole idea about the Cell "freeing bandwidth" for the RSX? Well in the first place (as best I can understand it) the reverse would be the case, the load of Cell taking on more vertex processing only cuts into the bandwidth that could be used to feed assets (textures) to the RSX from the CPU's own memory”

    Of course I agree that the reverse is also true (but not like you are explaining it I will come to this in my next lines), that there is no free launch, that there is always compromises…but that’s obvious don’t you think ?

    So yes doing morphological anti aliasing, motion blur, depth of field, lighting, vertex processing…etc on CELL instead of RSX, will free bandwidth (and memory and processing power) from RSX (especially the limited so needed 20.6 GO/S) just to use more of the CELL XDRAM bandwidth (25.6 GO/s) but that’s the substance of the whole idea !

    RSX bandwidth is needed for RSX to function at full capacity (calculating textures and pixel shaders), while CELL bandwidth is AVAILABLE, because simply managing carefully the bus between CELL and RSX (the 50 go/s bus), using streaming and transforming compressed textures from xdram of CELL to the RAM of RSX through this bus, doesent need the same huge amount of bandwidth needed to process those textures (transfering textures consists of a ONE TIME simple READ operation, while rendering a texture needs complex MULTIPLE READ/WRITE operations, so transfering a texture doesent need huge amount of bandwidth unlike rendering textures). Processing, calculating and showing those textures on screen that’s what takes huge bandwidth, not just streaming them from Blu ray to hard disk to Xdram to CELL to flexio bus to RSX to RSX Ram.

    So NO using he CELL to calculate anti aliasing, lighting, vertices and post processing effects doesent affect the quality of textures that goes to RSX, because those textures are simply given to RSX on a non processed format, they don’t take a lot of bandwidth, when the RSX calculate them, it is this process that needs bandwidth. In fact the PS3 nor the 360 are limited by the amount of textures that culd be feeded to their respective GPUs, basically with efficient streaming and compression/decompression texhniques you could feed to your GPU whatever amount of textures you want ! but you will always be limited by your GPU capacity to process and render those textures on screen.

    Actually if developers are offloading RSX bandwidth and processing by using CELL it is to permit RSX to calculate higher quality textures and shaders, because this way the bandwidth and GPU RAM (the bottleneck of ps3) are freed from the burden of any post processing effects (or lighting, or calculating vertices, or any thing the CELL is doing)

    But YES using the CELL to calculate all those effects, of course affect the bandwidth associated to the CELL (but not at all the textures feeded to RSX as I explained) and of course could affect its own performances, so after all it is a question of a compromise, of tweaking, of balancing, it is for developers to choose what they must do on CELL, How they do it, and what they must do on RSX and how they manage carefully all those memory communications between CELL and RSX.

    The whole idea is that to use the power of PS3, developers need to consider the system as a whole, CELL and RSX (and their respective pools of RAM) must work together in harmony, so no one is getting in the way of the other. The CELL must do what it does best, the RSX must do what it does best.
    Edited by DoctorFouad at 31/05/10 @ 09:18
  • BuckEntropy #47 2 years ago

    OK - "So NO using he CELL to calculate anti aliasing, lighting, vertices and post processing effects doesent affect the quality of textures that goes to RSX"

    You're apparently admitting the idea that Cell can somehow improve texture quality for the RSX was all bullshit then? That's a start I guess, except you then ignored my main point, that nothing Cell does can change the RSX's pixel shader fillrate. Nor can the RSX's own vertex processing directly impact on that pixel shader fillrate, so it makes literally no difference (for the textures) either way. All you've done is to take a longer tour around the exact same nonsense Dr.F.

    And @HakutoNoKen - "It is recommanded to avoid exceeding the 10Mb limit. Dantes inferno is 1280x720 with no AA @ 60 fps so its another example. For games such as DMC4 or SF4 they are quite simple in their nature when it comes to polygons, textures, lightning etc."

    More sheer indecency: that's quite the opposite of truth, MS "recommends" the use of tiling, since that's what the freaking machine was designed for; Dante's inferno shares that same 'limitation' on PS3 then it seems; and if your assessment of DMC4 and SF4 are valid, then how pathetic does that make PS3 if it cannot even match the 360 versions of those games?
    Edited by BuckEntropy at 31/05/10 @ 13:14
  • HokutoNoKen #48 2 years ago

    @BuckEntropy
    And @HakutoNoKen - "It is recommanded to avoid exceeding the 10Mb limit. Dantes inferno is 1280x720 with no AA @ 60 fps so its another example. For games such as DMC4 or SF4 they are quite simple in their nature when it comes to polygons, textures, lightning etc."

    More sheer indecency: that's quite the opposite of truth, MS "recommends" the use of tiling, since that's what the freaking machine was designed for; Dante's inferno shares that same 'limitation' on PS3 then it seems; and if your assessment of DMC4 and SF4 are valid, then how pathetic does that make PS3 if it cannot even match the 360 versions of those games?


    I think you missunderstood what I meant. They are recommending to avoid using tiling if your game excced the 10Mb limit and the aim is 60 fps. If you check out the games that I have mentioned in my posts you will notice a something when it comes to games made exclusivity to a platform and multiplatform engines.

    And please don't just cut and paste some part of the OP.

    / Ken
    Edited by HokutoNoKen at 01/06/10 @ 07:08
  • BuckEntropy #49 2 years ago

    No misunderstanding, and MS recommends no such thing... or maybe you need to clarify who "they" are?

    And no, I quote what I'm responding to, if anyone wants to check for other context it's easy enough to do.
  • Cdizzle #50 2 years ago

    A multi-threaded scene graph is actually in my worst nightmares, props to the poor devs who had to debug that monster!!!
  • DoctorFouad #51 2 years ago

    @BuckEntropy :

    1- I am admitting the idea that cell can improve texture was non sense ?!!!!!!!

    Did you read what I wrote ? I really doubt it....

    please tell me where the hell I said the CELL improves textures ?!!!!!!!!!!!!!! are you kidding ?!!!!!

    All what I said is very simple : the CELL offloading RSX means the CELL freeing not only the processing capability of RSX but also the quantity of RAM of the RSX (256 MO) + the bandwidth available to RSX (the 20.6 GO/s) this means the RSX would have available more RAM and more bandwidth to work with = more peak power. Thats all...and me who thought this was simple to understand...


    As for : "the cell cant change pixel shader fillrate"

    I guess you didnt read my comments or maybe you are just confusing a lot of things....

    let me please remind you of the basics of how a GPU works :

    a GPU is basically a processor specialized in rendering graphics, for this processor to work (like any other processor), it needs RAM where this processor could work and access data, one type of data very important for GPUs are textures, unfortunately high rez high quality textures need a lot of memory (more RAM) and a lot of bandwidth so the GPU could access them multiple times (read/write access) very raîdly to calculate pixels and render the textures on screen.

    Now if your GPU doenst have access to a lot of RAM, this means it cannot have access to high quality textures whatever the power of your GPU + if this RAM is not so quick (bandwidth) this means that even if you have a powerful GPUand a lot f RAM and high quality textures, yourGPU cannot access quickly those big textures = cannot render them quickly even though it is powerful = your GPU is constrained by the bandwidth, it doesent work at its full capacity.

    The RSX has a very limited bandwidth so its power is blocked, is constrained, its 24 pixel shaders and 8 Rops arent working at their full capacity because data isnt arriving at a sufficient speed. so say for example : the RSX could calculate 400 million pixels per second (just an example) but could only access data that generates only 200 million pixels per second. well than you will see on your screen only 200 million pixels per second, even if the RSX could calculate 2 billion pixels per second, if it doesent have access to enough data, its full power wont be used, its as simple as that.

    and thats the case of RSX, so having the CELL offloading the RSX = not only more power left for RSX or more textures that could be stred in RSX RAM but also more bandwidth left for the RSX = more used power = more pixels per second on your screen = better graphcis.

    I hope this time it is more clear...

    it doesent matter the speed of your GPU, if you cant store enough high quality textures, or if you dont have enough bandwidth. If the GPU doesent have data to work with, this means no matter its speed,
  • Judas_Priest #52 2 years ago

    @The good Doctor

    Another thing you fail to mention is that texture fetching is tied directly to the pixel shader hardware in the RSX (as with all of Dx 9 cards and below that Nvidia have made from my understanding) and the Xenos has separate logic for it, so the Xenos's unified shader units aren’t forced to do texturing as well. As such for the RSX to match the texture output of the Xenos, it has to cut back in pixel shader time.

    But yea, that doesn't mean much in the long run, as the Cell can assist in other areas, (such as post processing) so it can free up GPU time for the RSX to catch up. So all in all, I am certain that the 360 is as good as the PS3.

    It kind of disturbed me that the 360 'exclusive' devs weren't properly utilising the CPU, more over Remedy also claimed that they weren't either and that they could have easily reduced the CPU and GPU time by up to 30%, but couldn't due to time/money constraints, yes, time...

    Sorry for the wall of text.
  • BuckEntropy #53 2 years ago

    @DoctorFouad -"what I find incredible for the PS3 hardware is that because the CELL is actually helping the RSX (and working with it in harmony) this really frees bandwidth and memory for the RSX so the RSX could really be pushed to new heights in terms of texture quality and pixel shaders !

    so the difference of power between RSX and xenos is really reduced, because the RSX has enough bandwidth and specializing in doing what it does best instead of doing everything like xenos ! resulting in the RSX doing things impossible to do in Xenos (for example : GT5 1280*1080 2x AA 60 fps with 400 000 polygons per car 12-16 casrs per track with incredible lighting and texture quality, is simply impossible and overkill for xenos)"

    So lets establish this here: you begin by plainly asserting RSX is capable of "new heights" of texture quality, leading into a claim of something being "impossible" for Xenos. So you are explicitly framing all of your ideas as an advantage PS3 has over 360.

    And I'm clipping the following just to illustrate the flow of your 'logic':

    the bottleneck of ps3 is the GPU RAM bandwoidth ... the potential processing power of the RSX is there but hugely constrained by bandwidth... and here comes the CELL !!!... freeing bandwidth, memory and allowing the RSX to process higher quality textures and pixel shaders ! genius !"

    And continuing that tack in the next post:

    "lets not forget that the RSX is not the problem or the bottleneck for the PS3, it is the RAM associated to it (a 20.6 GO/s very limited bandwidth) if xenos had only this bandwidth, I would even say that RSX is more powerful... I think kutaragi thought of ps3 as a whole system, he knew the bandwidth would limit the RSX but he thought the CELL + xdram (25.6 go/s) linked to the RSX via a bus flexIO of 50 go/s would help the RSX and overcome this bandwidth issue... well maybe kutaragi was a genius and was thinking ahead of its time, he knew the PS3 taken as a whole (CELL + RSX) is far more powerful than xbox360 taken as a whole (xenos + xenon) and he designed the ps3 so costs could be very easily reduced over time..."

    So again, lets be clear you have framed all of this as some sort of advantage for PS3, right? That's your ultimate assertion, that PS3 is actually the superior architecture overall. And that's why it's all just bullshit, because even if the devs jump through every hoop perfectly and manage the memory hassles as well as possible, the overall bandwidth flow is still (at best) no better than the 360. And that's to say nothing of the additional compression formats and greater peak fillrate of Xenos.

    Plus I don't know where you're getting this 50go/s number, from what I can find it's 35. But I'll sort of thank you for prompting me to refresh on this crap, because when I look at the PS3's bus diagram the situation seems like even more of a hassle. Unless someone can tell me what I'm missing about it, it appears to me that even doing post processing with the Cell necessitates handing the final RSX render out to the XDR DRAM, and then back again to the GDDR3 for output. Which is obviously not a huge deal, but the point of all of this is that the more imaging work given to the SPUs the bigger the whole balancing act gets.

    So basically, yes the PS3's bandwidth issues can be MITIGATED well enough as long as the effort and expertise is there. I don't think that's even been in question, and some of the results are plain enough. But in no way, shape, or form does it all add up to an actual advantage compared to 360.

    Which makes everything residing between "so the RSX could really be pushed to new heights in terms of texture quality and pixel shaders !" and "I would even say that RSX is more powerful" is all just UNMITIGATED bullshit.

  • HokutoNoKen #54 2 years ago

    @BuckEntropy
    More sheer indecency: that's quite the opposite of truth, MS "recommends" the use of tiling, since that's what the freaking machine was designed for

    You must use predicated tiling if the framebuffer exceeds 10Mb as you have no other choice. Tiling will get you into trouble if your game is:

    A: GPU limited.
    B: Vertex shader limited (for example if you are using alot of polygons).

    / Ken
  • BuckEntropy #55 2 years ago

    Uh huh, well in that case I can only wish more games were so "in trouble" as Forza 3 then...
  • HokutoNoKen #56 2 years ago

    The numbers of cars rendered on screen and the amount of polygons used by each car most likely is a result of the 10Mb limitation.

    / Ken
    Edited by HokutoNoKen at 06/06/10 @ 14:23
  • BuckEntropy #57 2 years ago

    Every game is an end result of many different limitations, regardless of which platform it's running on. But in the vast majority of like-for-like examples the 360 has proven the eDRAM does not force any kind of limitation relative to PS3, or was that not your implication? I'm only drawing that inference based on your tedious (and recently tireless) smear campaign with dropping basically the same post in several threads, without any other context or substance than this *notion* of yours.

    Perhaps there's also an implication that you wouldn't be able to get to sleep at night if you couldn't believe the 360's eDRAM was more of a liability than a strength... so I'll certainly understand if this all makes no difference. *shrug*
  • HokutoNoKen #58 2 years ago

    Quote from Tech Evolution: Forza Motorsport 3 by Richard Leadbetter:
    To achieve this, there have been some sacrifices made. As we've noted many times previously, one of the great strengths of the Xbox 360 architecture is its ultra-fast 10MB of eDRAM connected directly to the Xenos graphics chip. Unfortunately, 10MB is not enough to contain a native 720p framebuffer with 2xMSAA, so instead each frame is cut down into two chunks, called tiles. Performance is impacted where objects occupy both tiles, as effectively they need to be drawn twice.

    Now take this in consideration B: Vertex shader limited (for example if you are using alot of polygons). When your objects gets tiled you will have to draw them twice and the penelty for this increases with the more tiles you use. If you are interested how all this work you can find more information about it on the XNA developer blogs/forums.

    / Ken
    Edited by HokutoNoKen at 07/06/10 @ 18:20
  • Kestana #59 2 years ago

    @BuckEntropy

    Seriously man. You should take a break. Arguing with these people (specifically Doc F), who for the love of God can't even spell, is like shouting at a wall.

    I stopped bothering after I realized he was beyond reason.
  • BuckEntropy #60 2 years ago

    Hey I'm at peace with the likelihood this sort of thing is basically talking to myself. But I've really been on a long break anyway, barely given any thought to this stuff in years; it was just a fluke I followed a link here to the Bayonetta face-off a few days after trying the demo, and it focused my understanding of why the game made such an impression.

    The main thing that gets me fired up is the pettiness... Sony's first parties have done their job well, delivering outstanding games that play to the PS3's strengths, and the media gushes about them on cue, but when something is genuinely outstanding on 360 the response is conspicuously tempered. Which is not to say they aren't given their due exactly, but there is yet a tacit enabling of the maintenance of this greater myth. And of course I understand how beleaguered the Sony camp must feel lately, but as a team they can never seem to get one thing their way without using it as a justification for claiming right to EVERYTHING.

    But as for Dr. F specifically, this was just an example of the most objectionable form of BS'ing; to me at least, precisely because I've been made to understand how effective it can be. Kestana I'm sure you understand as well what the "grain of truth" is in his whole spiel, but while I can't even decide whether he's honestly that confused, the net effect is still that he's attempting to draw others into that confusion.

    This is just an (essentially meaningless, granted) exercise in push back, as it's simply tiring to see this endless relay race being run with a turd baton. If it makes no ultimate difference so be it, but on the other hand, it's almost guaranteed the same shit will continue to get passed around for as long as the runners are allowed to avoid smelling it. ;)
    Edited by BuckEntropy at 08/06/10 @ 07:04