2D Boy's Ron Carmel and Kyle Gabler Interview

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Eurogamer: The MOM character is fascinating. I don't think there was anyone playing who thought, "I was totally expecting MOM to appear." Where did she come from?

Kyle Gabler: Full Throttle. What was the name of the character on the motorcycle in the 3D fighting road? Father something.

Eurogamer: Father Torque.

Kyle Gabler: Yeah! He felt, to me, to be like an angel, or god-esque character. There was choral music playing in the background. MOM is a combination of him and Norma Desmond, if they were a web 2.0 app. Tragic, lonely. And she inadvertently sets up the events that lead to the climax of the game. MOM was the biggest risk. I was afraid people would get to her and say "WTF", and close the game and never come back.

Eurogamer: And what has the response to her been?

Kyle Gabler: In the first revision of the game, it was too difficult in the build up to her. So everyone was grumpy when they met her! So we quickly fixed that difficulty spike. Somehow, nobody complained about her. People knew what to do, and she seemed to be perceived as a natural part of the game's progression. We were terrified people just wouldn't get the MOM to 'terms and conditions' acceptance to 'deliverance' progression. Foreshadowing her helped. There are bulletin boards in each of the chapters leading up to her, old advertising messages for MOM.

Eurogamer: How have you felt about the critical reaction?

Ron Carmel: We ran into the streets gloating and acting like asshole rock stars. But nobody knew who we were.

Kyle Gabler: Every sentence of every review is like an emotion-coaster. Negative comments sting, even now, a couple months later. When a small team makes a game, or any project, I suppose it's easy to directly map criticism about the game or project directly onto yourself, which probably isn't the healthiest thing.

Ron Carmel: We kinda grew slightly thicker skin after the backlash from the announcement about the more expensive retail release in Europe. That freaked us out. I think people forgot we were humans too. Some nasty things were said.

"The real glue that brought everything together was the Sign Painter."

Eurogamer: But your Metascores are 90 and 94!

Ron Carmel: It was an incredible thing. I'm not proud to admit it, but I checked that thing every morning to see if the 4th score had come in. It's strange. When you have a boss, and you get a year-end performance review and bonus, that's how you get validation for doing a good job. But as your own boss that part is missing. We still need external validation, so we get it from people who write to us to say that they enjoyed the game, and from reviews and, yes, even Metacritic.

Kyle Gabler: The reception has been surreal. One of my childhood heroes, Tim Schafer, actually played the game. With his baby!

Eurogamer: A lot of reviews have talked about the amount of love that seems to have gone into the game, and the way it makes people feel so happy to play. Was this something you couldn't help doing? Or something you didn't do and it resulted anyway? Or something deliberate?

Kyle Gabler: I'd say the first two. It's Stockholm Syndrome. You can't help but fall in love a little bit with the thing that's endlessly occupying your life. But I don't think we ever felt self-satisfied about the game. It was probably good that we always hated it a bit too.

Eurogamer: When Jon Blyth reviewed the PC version on Eurogamer, he said that he feared for you both having to follow it up. Do you feel that way at all?

Kyle Gabler: Yeah we don't want to make a Temple of Doom. But the next game will be a dumb arena shooter.

Ron Carmel: Hey, how did you know about my idea? I was going to tell you about it tomorrow.

Eurogamer: So apart from the arena shooter, are you working on anything now?

Kyle Gabler: The next step is to prototype a bunch of new ideas. One week each.

"[Allan Blomquist] got the game running on Wii in under three weeks. Who does that kind of thing?!"

Ron Carmel: We have a bunch of ideas laying around, none of which is one of those "oh, that's a game" kind of ideas.

Kyle Gabler: Yeah, the plan is to make a bunch of stuff, and see what sticks.

Eurogamer: After it all, would you encourage others to do the same? If they've got a great idea and the skills, should they strike out on their own?

Ron Carmel: Hell yeah! And it has nothing to do with money, by the way. It was about doing what we love, not about starting a company. That sounds really cheesy, but it's true.

Kyle Gabler: To anyone thinking about quitting everything and making an indie game, it's good to remember that you can always go get a job if it doesn't work out.

Ron Carmel: There are so many game developers being laid off now, it seems like the perfect time for people to go indie. Yay for severance pay!